Recently there have been some debates and discussions about whether it is possible to be a “100% positive” trainer. This has become an issue because some seminar hosts have policies that they will not hire anyone for a seminar unless they only use positive reinforcement and “never use punishment or aversives.” Some people are being asked to sign pledges that they will never use punishment as a trainer.
I’m curious what you think. Are you a “100% positive trainer?” Do you ever use “punishment?” Do you use what some people call “aversives”? Ever? If so, what kind and when? I’ll weigh in on this debate next week, (as you can guess I have a few opinions about the matter) but I’d love to hear what YOU think.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: The snow is melting! It’s been well over freezing during the day all week, and as a result 1) we can actually see bare ground in some places, 2) the snow that’s left re-freezes every night so walking most places involves either teetering on a mouse-size mountain range of ice peaks and valleys, sinking into ankle deep mud, or having your boot fall through a foot of snow with a thin cover of ice on it. Let’s just say the footing is highly variable. There’s enough open ground that it’s muddy paw time here now, and I am reminded of how valuable it is to cue your dog when you are about to lift his feet. I’ve been saying “Ready” before I pick up each of Willie’s paws (I also do them in the same order) and he now lifts up 3 of his 4 paws for me when I say the word. It’s always the same one that he doesn’t pick up himself, and I suspect that it is because it is harder for him to do so. We are always working on some problems he has in his left shoulder and right hip, so I go especially slowly picking up his right hind paw, and wipe it off as fast as I can. Willie’s behavior is a great reminder to us all to be observant and thoughtful about our dog’s responses.
Besides the discovery of lots of dog poop (a universal sign of spring in snow country), I discovered something far more interesting today. I found a dead hawk below the pines lining the driveway, clearly one who had died recently. I believe it is an immature Red Tail, (Buteo jamaicensis) the most common hawk in the area. There’s a pair that nests less than 100 yards from the farm house every year, and I wonder if it was one of their young from last year. Egg laying begins in late winter, in March or April, but I often have seen courtship begin in late February. I don’t know why the hawk died, it has no superficial injuries. The best guess (and it is only a guess) is that it starved to death. As I explained to my UW students recently, deep snow favors small rodents who can move through tunnels under the snow while staying out of sight of predators, and disfavors aerial predators like Red Tails. I wonder if the snow is melting just a few days or weeks too late for this one. I’m sorry that it died, but grateful to have a chance to appreciate its beautiful feathers.
Kat says
I’d say I’m mostly positive. There are a couple of things I do that probably qualify as adversives if nothing else. If Ranger is about to do something that he shouldn’t–going through the open gate without permission, for example, he gets a negative marker sound that I know he doesn’t like. I’ve also been known to bump him lightly with a knee to get him positioned where he needs to be and to grab his scruff when he’s not paying attention and the situation is potentially hazardous. I’ll also poke him to get his attention when he’s ignoring me. I think that anyone canine, feline or human that lives with me is probably subjected to some adversives in the course of me trying to get them to do what I want.
Gorgeous feathers on that bird and lovely photographs. Sad that you were able to take them.
Carolyn says
No, I’m not an “all positive” trainer. I guess I was when I trained my first three dogs to do agility but once I started working dogs on sheep about 7 years ago I had to learn how to effectively give a correction, use an adversive (I use a buggy whip usually when working sheep, or a hat or a water bottle…whatever is handy sometimes), and how to mark desired behavior without give a treat or toy as a reward. I believe that people who come to sheepdogging with dogs that have never had a correction have a huge learning curve, one that the dogs sometimes will never overcome. I do switch to being a mostly positive trainer when doing agility. I’m currently training my young (2 years old) sheepdog to do agility and teaching him to look for food or a toy as a reward is a bit of learning curve for him. It’s been about 6 years since I did foundation agility training with one of my dogs and it’s a bit difficult to switch back to being mostly positive.
Crystal says
Timely! I was thinking about this last week, and posted about it on my blog recently. http://reactivechampion.blogspot.com/2011/02/is-it-ever-necessary-to-use-pain-or.html
The condensed version, because I think it’s terribly tacky to post a link without a real comment:
Personally, I think it’s impossible to train with 100% positive reinforcement if you are using the operant conditioning terminology. All dogs will have behaviors you want to decrease, and according the the definition, if the consequences cause the behavior to diminish, it’s punishment.
That said, I absolutely believe that we can train without hurting or scaring our dogs. I might tell my dog “no,” but I use it to interrupt and redirect her behavior, and I never yell or threaten. I remove my attention a lot, or her ball, or her access to something she wants when she responds to a cue incorrectly- all of which is technically punishment, but doesn’t hurt her or our relationship.
I think it is very interesting that some seminar hosts want all-positive trainers. I’d love to hear what their definition of this is- I have been very frustrated by the lack of standard terminology in the dog training field. Add in a bunch of poisoned/loaded words, and it makes it very difficult to communicate with others clearly. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on this.
Cat says
I know there’s an argument saying that no reward markers are punishment, but I think it’s unfair to refuse to give a dog feedback when they’re totally on the wrong track. I’ve done so much proofing with one of my dogs that if she thinks she’s close, she’ll try a dozen variations of a single behavior, and it would be incredibly frustrating for her if I didn’t indicate that she’s barking up the wrong tree, as it were. I could go on and on about NRMs, but suffice it to say that I’m unswayed by the notion that the learning process operates in so simple a binary system as “you are either being rewarded or you are not.”
In terms of training, I don’t think punishments as such (NRMs notwithstanding) are useful, but for managing behavior, sometimes things that may technically be “punishment” are necessary. For example, if there’s a negative situation developing, I’ll absolutely remove one or multiple dogs to a separate space. That involves guiding by the collar/leash into a separate room and shutting the door (as they look up…so sad! also considered punishment), but for me it would be madness to try and manage an escalating situation through “100% positive only” methods. For my reactive, easily over-stimulated dog, that “punishment” is a tremendous relief; his whole body relaxes.
Aversive stuff like citronella, shock collars, invisible fences, etc, all give me the willies. Our first trainer talked us into using a shock collar for our first dog, and that lasted about a month, before we ditched both the collar and the trainer. Not for us.
(Love your blog, Trisha!)
Connie Kogler says
I don’t think it is possible to be “all positive”. Life is just not like that in anyone’s world, dog or no. Even in pack situations, there is punishment and adversives. I use marker signals in “formal” training sessions to tell the dog it missed something. I use no and off in everyday life along with yes and other fun cues.
I had an Australian Cattle dog several years back who I taught to stop on the rug for me to pick him up and put him, two paws in each sink.. One day I let him in and before I could say anything he tip-toed to the sink and JUMPED up, stood with two paws in each sink and waited! I was speechless! They are so smart and funny.
Rachel H. says
When I am explicitly working on a new behavior, I aspire to be exclusively positive, though I don’t always succeed. I find that “marking” errors early on especially can be counterproductive. My BC Gromit is a sensitive soul — even “eh eh” counts as punishment to him. Recently I was working on rear crosses (agility etc) with him. The sequence was jump, jump, tunnel, with me doing the rear cross between the two jumps to help him turn to the tunnel. I said “eh” when he turned the wrong way — and within three repetitions, he started refusing the second jump, period. To me this exemplifies the core problem with punishment — I didn’t know what I was punishing. I thought I was punishing the wrong-way turn and spin … he thought I was punishing him for jumping. Oops.
In terms of any more hurtful punishments — hard corrections, shock collars, etc. — I think they are terrible training tools. Although some dogs appear to tolerate them without being irreparably damaged, many more develop serious anxiety and behavior problems. Even the dogs that seem to accept physical punishments seem shut down and unresponsive to me — much more difficult to teach than a dog who is operant and enjoying the training game.
EmilyS says
nobody can possibly train a dog without providing feedback on when the dog does what you want, and when it does what you don’t want. Telling it when it’s done something you don’t want… even if your method is only to withhold praise/treat and ask for the behavior again… that’s correction.
The word “all/pure positive” is a red herring, usually employed by people who use physical corrections, including the “collar formerly known as shock” and to sneer at these alleged purely positive trainers who they claim are always trying to break up a dogfight by pointing a clicker at the dogs..
This is why the 4 quadrants of training were invented, not that I can ever remember what they are, or what they mean. I just try to be clear and fair to my dog when trying to teach it something.
Ashley says
I’m just a hobby trainer (as in, do a lot of reading and research but only train my own dog and fosters if I’ve got ’em!), but wanted to say that strictly R+ trainers are quite likely very few and far between. My guess would be that true clicker trainers would come the closest to being “all R+”.
I personally use “punishment” and aversives, how ever they are always, always hands off. I use verbal distractors or interupters (not yelling, usually, but I’m human!) as well as -P. I also use extinction which I know can be argued as being a punishment, although not of an operational quadrant (I don’t think).
Sharon C. says
This is a timely topic! I was just talking with a trainer friend who called someone a “balanced” trainer – one who uses positive reinforcement when learning a behavior, and corrections when the dog knows the behavior. While I like this concept in theory, my concern is that we don’t always know what the dog is thinking. Does the dog TRULY know the behavior, in all contexts? Or, are we correcting a dog who is confused because something subtly changed in context?
An example: My dog knows how to finish to the left or the right. She’s done them for years. Sometimes, though, I give the signal, and she sits there looking at me. If I were to use the “balanced” approach, I’d give her some sort of correction. However, I know from experience that my “afraid to be wrong” dog will sit and wait for more information, rather than make an educated guess about what I am asking. So, why is she refusing to finish? Often I’ll have someone observing us who tells me that my body language changed from the usual cues. She saw the cue in a new context, and there for no longer “knew” the behavior that was expected from her. A correction in this case would have shut her down.
All that being said, I do use corrections in ’emergency’ situations. Snarky behavior (barking and lunging at dogs who are too close, for instance) will get an immediate correction, but then I will follow-up with some long-term positive work to change the behavior.
Funny thing – this same philosophy held true for my kids when they were small. If I ‘corrected’ behavior without researching what the underlying issue was, I often ended up with more problems than I started with. They would shut down, get sullen and feel misunderstood. If I was patient enough to not correct immediately, I often got a better understanding of a problem, and was better able to find a way to change a behavior long-term.
As for the militant reactions toward philosophies one does not agree with – it’s not really a new thing, is it? Just new topic, same attitudes.
Sharon C. says
Oh, one more thing – I have sometimes used body blocks/body language to interrupt a behavior. Since I am adding to stop a behavior, is this punishment? And is this a traumatic thing to do to a dog?
The Learning Vet says
I love that you posted the pictures of the hawk–beautiful. I just repaired a broken wing on a RTH earlier this week. The one I saw today was not so lucky. Both were extremely thin.
Looking forward to others’ comments on this (including yours).
Khris Erickson says
I honestly don’t believe that anyone can be 100% positive trainer — if the definition is the quadrant using only positive reinforcement. I think someone can have that as a goal and perhaps get close, but even saying “no” or “eh eh” is by definition positive punishment if it decreases behavior.
I think the larger issue is expecting the general public to buy into it. Many professional trainers who call themselves “positive” have a very good understanding of how to use management and positive reinforcement methods to get results. But when you’re talking about the average pet owner – the parents with the 2 kids, a job, and a home to care for — it’s a whole other story. I don’t think it’s uncommon for management to fall apart when someone is busy and their dog is only a part of their busy life. People have a tendency to think in terms of getting rid of behavior, rather than trying to replace it with something more appropriate. And while the later may be the more effective solution, I think that many people will use their own form of punishment for misbehavior whether the trainer they consult with recommends it or not. Professional trainers need to realize this about our clients and be willing to accept that they may not get client buy in if they insist on management and positive reinforcement only.
I personally would never sign a pledge stating that I will never use punishment since I use it all the time. While I don’t use physical corrections, I do verbal corrections, body blocks, time outs, removal of the reinforcer for non-compliance, and on occasion startle corrections.
I do consider myself a positive trainer. I think many of us who label ourselves this fall into the category of LIMA — Least Invasive Minimally Aversive. In other words I do my best to get the desired behavior using primarily positive reinforcement, and rely as little as possible on aversives.
Eric Goebelbecker says
I guess it was inevitable,huh?
Yes, I use punishment. Stopping when a dog pulls on leash is punishment. A “time-out” is punishment. Listerine on a leash is an aversive and usually a punishment (not necessarily for some dogs.)
Personally, I find litmus tests and impossible-to-keep pledges aversive.
Cindy M says
Yes, I use P-. I think all the hoopla is confusing the emotional meaning of the terms “negative” and “positive.” How sad that Skinner coined those terms. Much better to say “removal” instead of negative, and “additive” or some other word, rather than positive.
I tried like mad to train my horse to stand politely back from the gate when I came into his corral with food. P- was the only way it worked (for us) and enabled him to learn well.
Could some other, more skilled, brilliant trainer have taught him using 100% R+??? I don’t know. That person doesn’t feed our horses twice daily and face large, powerful animal, eager to receive dinner, looming over them.
Aversives are everywhere in life for every animal. Animals can learn and behavior is maintained through a variety of situations, but we can’t remove every aversive from the lives of our animals, especially the ones we don’t even recognize.
Power to the purists. This mere human will work with the animals in a quadrant that works. I will make EVERY effort to avoid P+. I’m human. Sorry ’bout that.
Amanda & the Mutts says
I definitely don’t use 100% positive training, and I have to admit I would never even consider training that did. You won’t ever see my name on one of those pledges.
The overwhelming majority of my dog’s lives are filled with sunshine and happiness. I live for my dogs. I have no children, and I have a job that doesn’t come home with me – my free time is their time and if they’re not into it, I probably don’t do it. It’s all fully my choice and it makes me exceptionally happy.
That said, there are rules in my house that are absolutely 100% non-negotiable. I feel fairly strongly that it’s important to pick your battles and not sweat the small stuff with dogs. My dogs get to do more (and probably get away with more) than most, but they know without even an inkling of doubt that the laws must be followed. They know this because I have taught them there are consequences for not following those laws. I will not hesitate for one second to use my e-collar to teach a dog that “here” is one of those non-negotiable expectations.
I like positive training, and use it at every opportunity. I find that marker training is nearly unmatched in effectiveness when it comes to teaching a behavior. I personally find that quite often the trainers I see who use only positive training, though, have spent the majority of their careers working with Golden Retrievers and the like. Not every dog works that way, and I find most of the trainers in MY area would be up the creek with a Northern Breed, for example.
Erin says
I use a Gentle Leader to manage my human reactive dog when she needs to be in closer proximity to strangers than is comfortable. I also sometimes yell at her to stop barking in the house when she’s freaking out about nothing. I’m not proud of the last one, and I always think to myself, “Monkey reaction!” but it does happen. Other than that, I am a positive only trainer.
Monique Feyrecilde says
Sigh.
If there is no punishment being used, how do behaviors decrease or cease? It seems to me the definition of punishment has long been and will remain sticky.
Do I use aversives? Yes. If my puppy is chewing on a wire (or shoe, or the cat), I will say “ah-ah” and get him a toy instead, and play a little tug or chase to make the toy very fun. The “Ah-ah” is sufficiently aversive that he will cease that behavior and I can engage him otherwise. He has reduced these behaviors significantly in the past 2 weeks, so it seems punishment is occurring. Am I using DRI, yes. Am I also punishing and using aversives, yes.
Anything the dog is wiling to avoid is an aversive in my mind.
Do I intentionally cause pain or undue emotional stress? No. Do I use metal collars, shock, shaker bottles, squirt bottles, bitter apple, binaca, knees, striking, stepping on, screaming and yelling, shaking, rolling or yanking? No. But do I punish? Yes.
For example I will body block a dog to keep him or her in a stay during training. Positive punishment and negative reinforcement at work there, followed usually by positive reinforcement as well.
Separate example, if my stockdog is slicing a flank I may use body pressure or a wave of my stock stick to bend her out. Positive punishment, negative reinforcement (could also be viewed as negative punishment and positive reinforcement depending on if the handler or the sheep is the actor in question). Did I hurt or traumatize my dog? I don’t think so… but I did punish what I didn’t like and reinforce what I did, evidenced by future behavior patterns.
I’m tired of the stigma attached to the word punishment.
Great question. Will be curious to see more answers!
Frances says
Is it actually possible to be 100% positive (assuming this excludes positive punishment)? I used reward based training – and I withhold the reward or my attention for behaviour I don’t want – which I suppose is an aversive. If one of my dogs jumps out of the car before being cued, I make shocked, horrified noises, and insist she get back in and wait for me to put her lead on; if they tease the cats I will use a sharp “Oy!” to distract them; if Sophy plays keep-away rather than get in the car I have been known to get in and drive a few yards … etc, etc. At the same time I am aware that this is laziness on my part. If I put the time and effort into really, thoroughly training and proofing my dogs, I might not need to use even these comparatively mild aversives.
I don’t use anything more forceful – but even That Voice can sometimes be too much. On the rare occasions when I sound really cross, Poppy hides under a chair until it is all over, and Sophy’s bottom jaw wobbles, like a small child about to cry. And then I apologise, and we end up with a reconciliation cuddle and game.
barrie says
LOVE Connie’s ACD comment since I live with one who does crazy brilliant things like that on a regular basis. Such an interesting, challenging breed 🙂
1. I think ever using a leash and collar to limit a dog’s freedom of movement is in fact punishing (+p/-r) so I think a LOT of people who think they never use aversives just haven’t thought it through.
2. One interesting thing I have found with some clients is that “regular” people freak out about a dog trying to figure out what behavior you are attempting to reinforce with shaping exercises and think it is cruel beyond measure to not tell the dog what you want. I love shaping and watching the dog figure it out but it is learning and learning is at the very least a mild stressor. These are people who routinely, without thinking, do things to their dogs which would horrify clicker trainers as aversives btw. I have learned to carefully explain to these clients that they may see some signs of stress in the dog as s/he figures out the behavior but that we are going to split our criteria down to very small things and keep our rate of reinforcement very high to offset the stress we all feel when learning a new task and give an example to them of how they might feel some stress in learning a new skill perhaps in a sport which they enjoy but how excited they are once they have gained that skill.
Sue says
Re the hawk. You can take it to the DNR on Fish Hatchery Rd. Call first since it’s illegal (I was told when I found a dead hawk a couple years ago) to possess it otherwise…
Steve Shaffer says
I’ve never met a dog that interacts/trains another dog with 100% positive, and the really good ones have a whole range of non-positives. Even moving into the dog’s space is a non-positive but not especially aversive. I think Glen Johnson put it very well in the intro to “Tracking Dog: Theory and Method” when he observed that he couldn’t fathom being able to train a dog to carry an egg (raw) across a tight rope 8′ above the ground with compulsion (he had trained a dog to do this) nor could he envision being able to dogs not to fight with inducement. This goes back to 1975. Back then the same discussion was about inducement (positive) vs. compulsion (aversive). I imagine the cavemen having the same discussion over the first domesticated dogs.
That said, we use positive as much as possible and management as needed. Aversive responses are reserved for the same situations another dog would use them (no, we don’t bite or nip), and as mild (such as moving into the dog’s space) as possible to elicit a response when positive or management are not succeeding (or quickly enough).
Coleen says
Hi. I’ve been reading this blog for about a year and a half, but I don’t think I’ve ever posted. I’m sort-of a student of dog-training (I’m a member of my local shelter’s Behavior Team, and we learn to rehabilitate the dogs seized from cruelty cases, and learn how to enrich the lives of the “regular” dogs who live in the shelter until they are adopted). I just wanted to say that I completely agree with Crystal and EmilyS — “punishment” is a mis-used word. Some people (mostly uneducated in training) seem to think it means to physically hurt or scare the dog. And I don’t believe it’s possible to be 100% positive.
Coleen says
Patricia, I’m also curious what your reaction is when (if) you’ve been asked to sign one of these forms that say you pledge to be 100% positive.
Laura says
I train Service Dogs mostly, though I have been known to help my friends and family with pet dogs. I can’t imagine never using some form of adversive when training.
We mostly use clickers to shape behaviors and encourage them in each new environment the dogs are introduced to. We also use verbal correction when needed. In some cases a leash correction. Right now the dog i’m working with is an Aussie. He’s very young and very oblivious to some things but to date he has been very responsive to the clicker and the worst thing in the world to him is when I frown. He will try everything he knows how to do to get me to smile at him.
So the question is, is frowning punishment? If so, I am guilty at using punishment on ALL my dogs 🙂
I don’t think it’s possible to work with a dog and never tell them no in some fashion.
trisha says
Thanks to all for the comments so far. I’m going to wait til next week to post my answer, I don’t want to influence what comes in yet. What I will say is that I think a conversation about this issue is a good idea, so keep it up . . .
Barb says
All positive? Not me. My training methods would probably be best described as “positive-as-much-as-possible.” I agree with those who have remarked about stopping behavior, like a fight, with positive methods. I would be interested to know if someone’s done it.
My dogs too have a very good life. They have very few restrictions on their dogness and, more days than not, have everything that makes their life good — exercise, companionship, mental stimulation, games, great food, love.
I’m noticing the biggest holes in my positive training with my 6 month old puppy — the third dog in the house. I’m noticing that there are times when the puppy and his three year old sister get to playing, and I just don’t have a way of interrupting other than putting them in their crates — which I’m sure was not the outcome they wanted. They get rewarded when they go in their crates for a time out, but the going in their crates is surely an aversive.
I also am working with a youth group that is transitioning from leash-pops and choke chains to buckle collars and lure reward. Worthy goal. Then in comes this delightful little girl with a full-of-itself two year old lab. This dog will have a harness or head halter or pinch collar on it — an aversive. Is it better for the dog to have the aversive than for the little girl to get hurt? I think so.
And finally, about barking. I used a squirt bottle with my nine year old, and it worked wonders very quickly. With this puppy, he turns being squirted as a game — trying to catch the stream before it hits his head! I am embarrassed to tell you how long we have played this game until I figured out that the reason he stopped barking was because he was tired from the game — and drenched!
I did try the citronella collar — his pitch is still too high. Doesn’t work. And with a pitch that high, you can imagine how irritating the barking can be.
So I have decided to try extinction. I do computer work and listen to the barking in another room. (I’m the only one here besides the dogs when I do this!) So far he’s barked for up to an hour before he stops barking. Is extinction a positive technique? Don’t know, but I did buy a remote control citronella collar in case we go over an hour of barking before he quiets.
In the end, trying to stay positive! Another worthy goal.
em says
I’ll echo what has been said…I think that the definition of ‘positive’ and ‘punishment’ have become frustratingly slippery. I don’t think that it is either possible or desirable to train without some sort of aversive. The severity of the correction should depend on how sensitive the dog is, but some sort of correction is bound to happen, even unintentionally. I’ve had dogs who were crushed by a sharp tone of voice. I learned to offer corrections very, very gently. A frown, a glance away, a focused look and a very gently voiced ‘ah-ah’ were all I ever dreamed of using.
Then I adopted Otis, who is typically pretty sensitive, and responds well to the gentle cues above, but who is capable of “hulking out” when overstimulated (deer were the main triggers) and becoming completely unresponsive to all but the most severe corrective/interruptive techniques. He locks his focus down and does not see or hear or feel anything else. For the deer chasing, we did have to use a shock collar as a last resort. Pure aversive, used for no other ‘training’, the e-collar was a tremendously helpful tool in a potentially life or death situation (because deer are so common and he’s so strong, being leashed all the time is no guarantee of safety). He was completely unreachable, obsessive, impervious to everything else we tried. Now he doesn’t even need to wear it.
That’s actually an important factor for me. If a correction or a punishment doesn’t actually stop/prevent the behavior, then it’s useless at best and abusive at worst. When I train Otis to perform a desired action, I use rewards. But when I want him to stop doing something I don’t approve of, I often use corrections of one type or another (almost always gentle and verbal, but I’ve had to snatch his nose or his scruff a time or two when he was way out of line, something I would never have done with my super-sensitive GSP cross). This formula has worked for us. Otis knows what is expected of him and he knows what to expect from us. He’s calm, confident, and beautifully well behaved at home and in public, and I give part of the credit to the clear boundaries established by corrections. I also think that a decisive, effective correction can be kinder, in the long run, than a potentially long and frustrating struggle to eliminate a behavior exclusively through reward-based training, especially if the behavior is self-rewarding. Most days, I don’t need to use any but the most gentle corrections (a pointed look, a frown, a warning tone), but I don’t think that I could completely eliminate them, even if I tried.
Donna in VA says
Interesting discussion. Of course it depends on the dog. Max (sheltie) is fairly self-confident and forgiving, but he is also a worrier and some of his anxious behaviors are inappropriate – barking or lunging at other dogs, barking at ceiling fans, cooking noises, anything strange, etc. I think it is really easier for him if I make it clear to him what I do and don’t want. When he chooses a desired behavior, he gets a treat and praise. Undesirable behavior gets a time-out: on-leash this means lying down and waiting for several minutes until I decide to move on. In the house this means staying in a specific quiet room by himself – funny because after 10 minutes or so he thinks we have forgotten about him and starts making little yips until we call him out. Is that punishment? Maybe – but it makes him calmer, because that is the worst that is going to happen to him, and sometimes that is better than the unknown.
Tina says
This is a great discussion. I am not a professional dog trainer, just trying to have a dog who is good to live with.
1. My first dog was a bomb-proof Labrador Retriever, I used a prong collar with her for first couple years, she was smart, quick-learning, a dog which required minimal training.
2. Enter second dog, german shepherd mix, high energy (not BC energy), reactive to other dogs and anything new. Tried prong collar…didn’t seem to help reactivity, fortunately I had a trainer who suggested ditching it and using Leslie McDevitts techniques. Training has gone a lot better, we even have a pretty decent recall as long as no rabbits or dead things are around.
3. I still use aversives with this dog, she is not so sensitive to be bothered by strong no. I use a spray botttle of water to help prevent jumping on strangers (now they only need to hold the bottle). I use a citronella collar to prevent barking when she is outside and I am away. She willingly allows me to put the collar on her. She always gets a treat for wearing it. I wish I was a better trainer, but I do have to live with my neighbors and I like to be a responsible dog owner and respectful of my neighbors.
That’s my view as an ordinary person with a slightly better than average trained dog. Loved Erin’s comment ‘Monkey Reaction’! I definitely have those once in awhile, too.
Kathy says
I haven’t read all the comments, but I have never been able to figure out why anyone would want to try to train purely positive (I agree with those who have said it isn’t really possible). Dogs, like children, need boundaries and clarity but more importantly, the world isn’t a purely positive(PP) place. If a dog has been raised and trained without having to deal with any aversives, what is going to happen to that dog when it goes out into the real world and the trainer cannot control everything going on? Even at home this can happen – I remember many years ago reading about a woman who trained PP and then one day accidentally tripped and fell on one of her BCs. The dog was extremely upset for weeks, and the woman didn’t have the skills to deal with it because she’d never even raised her voice to her dogs, much less administered a physical correction!
And all of this doesn’t even touch on those dogs who are mentally and/or physically tough. When I was still training for the public, I used to get these dogs in at 18 mos – 2 yrs with all kinds of bad habits because the owners never wanted to be “mean”, so of course the dog was ruling the roost. I’ve often wondered how many dogs ended up in shelters because of this.
Susan S. says
I train shelter dogs. Most of these comments are from people working with their own dogs or with dogs brought to classes by owners who care about them. My job is to work with dogs who have never been trained at all, or whose bad behavior have been reinforced in one way or another, until their “owners” have surrendered them because they’re out of control. This isn’t true of all shelter dogs, of course, but our Canine Behavior Specialist will ask me to works with dogs with no bite inhibition, dogs who jump on you without a clue that it’s impolite, dogs who have never been walked on a leash. I try to turn them into adoptable dogs with good manners & I want to do it quickly so they can find homes as soon as possible.
I don’t believe it’s possible to teach a behavior with punishment. I teach difficult dogs new behaviors which are incompatible with unacceptable ones using positive & negative reinforcement. When I’m sure the dogs know what they SHOULD do, only then do I use correction if the bad behaviors persist. Some times the hairy eyeball or the word “no” works, but sometimes it doesn’t. It depends on the dog.
I once heard the “Edgar Sawtelle” (can’t underline) author Davis Wroblewski say that never punishing a dog is condescending. We don’t let our 2-year-old kids run around the house holding butcher knives by the blade. Some behaviors have to be stopped. So long as we never react to our dogs in anger, never hit them, never hurt them, I think wise & careful occasional use of positive punishment is OK.
Ravana says
I’d say I’m a positive trainer, but I will never give up on upside down mousetrap booby traps for counter surfing/garbage diving young dogs who sense the moment your back is turned. I have discovered that I rarely have to actually set a mousetrap after the initial “shock and awe”; just putting one by a taboo area will keep the dog away. My current dog learned the word “mousetrap” after the first trap explosion, and I can quietly say “mousetrap” if he is misbehaving he will instantly stop whatever he is doing. Does playing on that remembered fear negate my otherwise positive methods?
Frances says
I am one of those who are very uncomfortable with the word “punishment”, mainly because its meaning for those immersed in behavioural psychology and learning theory is so different to its meaning for most other people. For those of us not trained in psychology, “punishment” has connotations of moral authority, retribution, and revenge – none of them useful concepts when dealing with dogs. It embraces a huge range of actions – from withholding a reward, through time outs, to collar pops and electric shock collars, and on to beating with a whip or deliberately holding the dog’s head under water. It implies compulsion, and the potential for the use of force. Words are important – they have a history and carry echoes from their use in the past. Psychologists mean one thing when they use the word “punishment”, but their wider audience may be understanding something very different.
Ann W in PA says
Good discussion topic, as usual! And so also as usual, my post got way too long, so please do feel free to skip over it. 🙂
The waters are definitely muddy, as “the training center down the road which will remain nameless” claims on their website to use “positive methods” and on same website advertises their Board & Train, where they will use a shock collar as the first and primary tool to teach your dog, as young as 6 months in my experience, basics like sit, down, stay, and leash-walking. It’s “positive” they claim because the dog can avoid the shock, but their method (as published on said website) is to apply the shock until such point as the dog guesses what’s wanted with no guidance and does it. Hey that’s not even punishment, technically speaking! (not that I think the folks at this place know the definition of negative reinforcement) Regardless of what one thinks about this method, I fail to see how it is “positive” as advertised. But if you google our area and positive training, they jump right out at you.
I guess I most like the term “reward-based training” for what I do – I mostly give and sometimes remove rewards – food/toys/life rewards. I’m not “100% positive” but I try to always focus on teaching the dog what TO DO, and that leads me in a positive direction. I continue to find that the kinder I am, the better things work. I also understand that for my clients who are inexperienced trainers, this can be harder to pull off (and my goal is to help them). When I’m frustrated, I do things I’m less proud of, like yelling incomprehensibly at the dogs barking out the window at deer (I like the term “monkey reaction” Erin.) But when I’m using my brain, I strive to keep it about figuring out how to get the good stuff, together as a team, and eventually just cooperating is “good stuff” and I’m not constantly doling out treats. I try to make
Laurie says
I do consider myself a positive trainer. I do no harm to my dogs under any circumstances during training or otherwise. I try to exclusively use positive reward, but with two Aussies with brains of their own in the house, I have thoughtfully used removal of reinforcement, body block, “no”, a yell, a water bottle, a penny can and a tossed soft object (the latter few only for the higher priority need of training NOT to eat the cat). As with most things in the dog world, we seem to be all black and white in a world of realities that are not so easily pigeonholed. Not to mention, some trainers who say they never use punishment will then tell you about how to look away when the dog is doing something you don’t like to get your attention. That is not punishment in the sense we think of it, but it seems to meet the criteria to me.
Ellen Pepin says
When we got our first dog, we learned from a trainer who trained dogs in the Air Force. He used a variety of methods, but lease corrections were swift and hard. My husband and I both followed this trainer’s advise, but we were unable to get her to respond to us like she did for John. I started reading advise from different books on training. Gradually, we switched to a positive approach. Our dog, Nikki, was obeying us more than she had in the past. She had been found half starved on the street, and food was very important to her. When we got our second dog, Dakota, we use positive training almost all of the time. Dakota was adopted, and food is the goal for him. He will do anything to get a treat. I also have to say that he is a German Shepherd/Rottweiler/? mix with the personality of a lab. After Nikki died, we adopted a Collie. While the goal is to be positive, it is not always possible. Tess can be a stubborn girl and is challenging. Sometimes, when she will not obey, she gets a leash correction.
The one time that positive training goes by the wayside is when the dog is in danger. Tess chases cars and nearly got killed last summer. She bolted out the door after a very large lawn service truck. I called her, but it was hopeless. I ran after her screaming,and the truck stopped. She proceeded to run in circles around the truck. When I finally grabbed her, I was not feeling positive. I leashed her and half dragged her back to the house.
Jana Rade says
Well, I do think that for the training it is possible to stay positive only. Might take longer but the results will be more reliable and last longer. The dog will look forward to training and be more eager to learn things.
In real life, I think it’s not that easy. Who doesn’t scream NO! when their dogs is about to roll in some nasty stuff? (I do) I think when this is followed by recall and praise that’s till fine.
Alexandra says
I use physical punishment only if there is a major safety issue. For example, my dogs are big enough to pull me off my feet if they lunge full-strength, so I simply cannot tolerate them doing that. Lunging full-strength after anything earned them a hard leash correction, a stern “NO” and getting backed up 10 – 20 feet or so in the opposite direction by my walking into them. I only had to do this twice with my younger dog for going after neighborhood cats and he got the idea. My older dog is a more complicated soul. She has a mix of fear-based reactivity but also an element of a very strong prey drive and occasional downright nastiness toward certain dogs. It’s really been a long-term struggle to find the best way to manage her. I try to use positive-based methods with her as much as possible, lots of counter conditioning and desensitization, as well as sensible management to keep her under threshold. But, sometimes life just happens and when push comes to shove, I have to be able to keep control of my dog or it could cost her her life. So, I have given her a few prong collar corrections under very specific circumstances. Overall, she’s made a lot of progress, but it’s not been all cookies and sunshine.
For agility training, I don’t ever use a no-reward marker. I just ignore incorrect choices and reward the right ones. I’d say the agility field is the only place where I’m as positive as I can be. Is that really “100%” positive, though? I’m not sure it is. I no longer use a no-reward marker, because marking an incorrect behavior became stressful for my agility dog. I had to re-train my contacts because my sigh of frustration over missed contacts in trials, not even directed at the dog, because aversive enough to cause stress in my dog. My dog’s a marshmallow, though. A more intense dog might do very well with the information provided by a no-reward marker. Positive and “aversive” mean different things for different dogs. Instead, I focus on making agility my dog’s choice, and always giving him an opportunity to choose NOT to play the game if he doesn’t want to.
Erin says
I do use corrections/punishment(both positive and negative)/adversives and believe they have a place in training- afterall, even nature has its negavitive punishment (ie. dog eats poisonous plant, dog throws up, dog doesn’t eat plant again). This said I believe that no method is exclusively correct and the best plan is to CORRECTLY use a variety of methods at one’s discretion. I believe that positive reinforcement is very beneficial but has its own problems too. I do not believe that anyone can be entirely 100% positive.
I train service dogs and use both corrections and rewards. I have seen corrections (when used correctly) change a dogs behavior and would rather give one correction and solve a bad behavior than give 100 kibble and do little to no good. I would also rather give 5 kibble than 15 corrections. I have seen citronella collars do wonderful things to curb behavior that could otherwise be harmful to the dog or handler (ie. sock eating). I have also seen prong collars make a 180 in a dog’s behavior and believe in its use BY A PROFESSIONAL for a SHORT period of time (one hour to less than 2 weeks). I do not believe in the use of shock collars, hitting, etc. I think most problems in training come from handlers training without enough knowledge or guidance, and not from the type of training itself(although there are many exceptions). It has been very enlightening to read all these comments and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
Sarah says
The seminar organizers are being ridiculously vague. Why not spell out what they don’t want trainers to teach (leash corrections, shock collars, etc.)?
If someone talks about a no reward marker, will the organizers freak out because it’s not 100% R+?
I don’t use aversives or punishment with my dog because she doesn’t respond well to them. It’s taught me a lot about only using R+. It’s also taught be to write a training plan for every little thing and to keep records of our training sessions. It’s a lot more work, but it’s a lot of fun, too.
However, I’m only teaching my dog basic manners and rally skills. Would I do the same thing with a dog I was teaching to herd?
I have no idea what I would do in that situation. I think I’d try 100% R+ first. I’d like to know what works and doesn’t work with that before adding aversives.
Beth says
My dogs know what “ah-ah” means and don’t seem to react any more negatively to that than they do to “leave it.” Yet “leave it” is considered a positive (as it’s a command) and ah-ah is considered by some a punishment or aversive. My dogs don’t seem to really know the difference, IMO.
I do use the occasional leash tug (gentle). I must admit that twice I threatened to off my male Corgi’s head; I guess a few-second growly lecture is a punishment.
I must admit I have yet to see a trainer use 100% positive training, even those who claim they do.
Lynn U. says
I guess I’m not the kind of trainer who says “I would never…” about very many things. Dogs have different temperaments, trainers have different levels of skill and ability to physically handle their dogs, and any tool, including hands as well as collars and leashes can be used appropriately or inappropriately. I don’t feel a bit guilty about using a shock collar to teach my then-adolescent-and-intact male Terv that he HAD to come when called. Running around and peeing on things was a higher value reward than anything I could come up with, and I knew that he enjoyed off-leash activities that simply weren’t safe for a dog who liked to bolt off to play and refused to come when called. (Yes, we had spent months reinforcing recalls. He clearly knew what “come” meant.) The first time I hit the stim button on the control he looked at me, and I could see him thinking, “Uh…nah…not worth it,” before he started to turn to leave again. I bumped up the level a notch, tried again, and he basically shrugged his shoulders and came. It was not harsh and abusive — it was uncomfortable for a brief moment, but allowed me to remain far calmer and more pleasant than I was chasing my dog down in a panic-induced fury. (OK, I know I should always be calm, but really, are you when your beloved dog is merrily galloping down the street without regard for traffic?) In this instance, it was the right tool for the dog. Of course, he knew what was expected of him, knew how to make the punishment stop, and was highly unlikely to panic at the unfamiliar sensation. (This dog has never panicked about anything in his life. As far as he’s concerned, planets revolve around him. As does my heart.)
Thea Anderson says
First of all, without omniscient knowledge it’s impossible to say that any particular method is the reason dogs end up in shelters. All these training method work to some extent, in some cases, or people wouldn’t continue to use them.
I try to use only positive reinforcement with my dog because the fallout from punishing her by yelling “NO!” is that she gets scared of the room where I yelled at her. It’s just not worth it. Instead I’ve trained a really good LEAVE IT (the other day she found some bacon on the sidewalk and actually spit it out when I told her LEAVE IT!) and I’m always working on strengthening her recall because it may save her life some day. But sometimes I get frustrated, lose my temper, have “monkey reactions” (thanks Erin), and this only sets us back because I have made my dog scared of the living room.
My dog isn’t a wimp– I once accidentally hit her with my bike when she tried to dart after a squirrel, and another time I stepped on her foot and had to take her to the emergency vet because it wouldn’t stop bleeding. She’s very resilient and very forgiving, and seems to understand that accidents happen. She just generalizes from punishment so much that it’s counterproductive; I don’t believe she even makes the connection between jumping on the couch and getting yelled at.
The seminar pledge sounds comparable to asking parents to sign a contract saying they’ll never spank their child no matter what. And it’s hopelessly vague. But I’d happily sign a statement like “I do not consider aversive punishments (such as leash corrections) to be a part of my training repertoire; instead I strive to shape my dog’s behavior by rewarding desirable behavior and ignoring undesirable behavior.”
Marie says
I have been on the receiving end of this debate. When I say I am a positive trainer, people have said, there is no such thing as 100% positive. They say that ignoring a behavior or not rewarding is a form of punishment.
So to fuse that debate this is what I can say. I do not use any correction that causes pain or makes the dog uncomfortable. I set the dog up to win and if the dog fails I know he is telling me he doesn’t get it and needs to go back a step that he can be successful with before I move ahead.
So yes, I am a positive trainer. I set my dogs up to succeed, reinforce behaviors that I want by marking the behavior and rewarding it. And it works like a charm.
Marie says
So I have to add something because I would like to know if anyone else sees this. My own dog has never been corrected in any way that would hurt him or even make him uncomfortable. But, being the human I am, There are times, not often but there are, when I loose my cool and am verbally a bit loud. Something like a, “Stop!” Well when I do this, and it isn’t often at all, my dog crouches down like I am going to beat him. This dog has never, not ever had a hand laid on him by anyone. I think he does it because it happens so rarely, happens immediately after he does something, and he knows he did something wrong and feeds off my feelings. Could I be wrong? Absolutely!
I would like others to comment.
Alison says
I’ve been known to swat the nose that is connected to the long tongue that sneeks up behind me and reaches for my plate. I’d do the same to my niece as she reaches to dip a finger in the cake frosting. In both cases, dog/child will walk away a bit disappointed but neither are hurt or scared. And neither will have been rewarded for doing something they knew they shouldn’t.
In teaching new behaviors, positive reward based training is the way to go. In stopping unwanted behaviors, sometimes a correction or aversion is needed. Usually verbal correction (ah ah, no, hey, etc) is all that’s needed. In situations that escalate to where there’s risk of injury (to my dog, another dog, or a person/child), I will grab my dog by the collar or the scruff of the neck or tail…whatever it takes…and remove him/her from the situation as quickly as possible.
Judith says
This is very a very interesting conversation, first a disclaimer I only train my own dogs.
The one thing I have been very curious about is that as I read books about training when I got my new youngster from “positive” trainers was that if a dog is smart enough to understand the concept of you got it right “click treat” then why can we not help the dogs with a marker for you are not even close buddy. Basically the childhood game of hot and cold.
From personal observation I hate the frustration I see in my border collies when they can not figure out what I want, and find that if I can help them figure it out they learn quicker.
I also treat learning new behaviors differently from plain rude behavior, I compete in agility and that is a game, but even there I have a verbal marker for lets do that again, ( this depends on the dog, the young one is fine and it keeps his frustration level down but I would never stop the game with the older one as he shuts down easily when playing agility) but it is still done in an upbeat way. While good manners are non-negotiable and they will receive a verbal correction or sent to their beds for having bad manners.
Steve Shaffer says
Really didn’t expect it of followers of this blog but I notice that no one has thought to raise the issue of when punishment (pick your flavor: aversive, positive, negative, etc) becomes abuse. If you’re not doing 100% positive (if such a thing really even exists – I place it up there with the tooth fairy and Santa) then punishment/aversive vs. abuse is an important consideration to keep in mind. Also, we as humans aren’t perfect, and I’m sure we all have times we over react and feel bad and apologetic to the dog afterwards. Making up is part of a relationship after all, and dogs do so with play bows and other behaviors. We have used the dog body language to apologize if we do something inadvertent like step on a paw or just plain get mad because it’s one of those days. They get the apology quickly and all is forgiven (such great souls are dogs!).
FidoPhoto says
This is a very interesting topic. My dog doesn’t typically use his nose to find his toys when he drops them in the woods so if I can see the toy, I “shape” him to find it. I used to say yes when he was going in the right direction and no when he wasn’t, but I’ve noticed that he’s faster and less stressed when I’m simply quiet when he’s on the wrong track. Anecdotal, for sure, but I don’t use no reward markers anymore unless it’s to interrupt unsafe behavior.
I do withhold things he wants sometimes so I guess that would be negative punishment. I never use positive punishment unless a body block is considered punishment (I block his way if he tries to push his way out the door, for example).
Simply putting a leash on a dog is a form of punishment because it restricts his freedom and is therefore aversive, but the distinction for me is that it doesn’t cause pain, discomfort or fear. My main motto in training is set him up for success and then reinforce him when he’s successful. (I suspect I got that from one of Trisha’s books.)
MM says
My wife and I are dog owners, not trainers. We learned PR techniques and that’s what we use 95+ percent of the time. We also yell, growel, nip, pat on head, use time outs — whatever we think is generally condoned by dogs for immediately expressing disapproval, based on our limited knowledge, followed by re-welcoming into the scene asap after some sign of “I got it”. Take barking for example. We taught “bark” then “no bark” using rewards, hand signals and different tone of voice. In a barking situation along the fence, we’ll try “no bark” then escalate to growel then to time out. Our basic thinking is that we need to work on “no bark” more using PR to fix the problem.
joelle says
I don’t consider myself a trainer, but I do have 2 dogs, both pretty well trained at this point. In my experience it really depends on the dog. My dogs could not be more different than one another and their training has required 2 very different methods.
I have one dog who has sooo much energy she could barely contain herself for the first year + of her life and also horrible separation anxiety. When I first got her I did all positive training classes and worked with an all positive trainer but it just wasn’t enough. So for her I eventually found a trainer who works with both positive and negative styles and really traditional obedience to give the dog a sense of structure. She has completely blossomed. For the negative part, when necessary I do corrections with a shock collar, set on the lowest possible setting (it doesn’t hurt as much as it just gets her attention, I’ve tried it on myself to make sure of this!). For rewards she gets tons and tons of really over the top praise, pets and belly rubs. Since I started doing this training with her about a year ago (under the close supervision of a trainer) my relationship with her has truly blossomed. We truly interact now that she isn’t so overwhelmed with anxiety and knows the rules. She barely ever gets corrected anymore, she doesn’t have separation anxiety anymore (thankfully!), and when I say “what a good girl” she gets so happy, it’s totally amazing.
My other dog is extraordinarily sensitive to everything. For her I have to reserve even the word “no” to when she is doing something really, really bad, because she takes it so hard. Primarily for her I give tons of praise for things she does well and for being sweet. When she does something she knows is “good” she comes to me for her moment praise, it’s adorable.
For me the experience of having two such different dogs and two very different experiences makes me feel like there can never be only one right way.
Frances says
Marie – my dogs react in a very similar way on the odd occasion I sound really, genuinely cross. I don’t think it has much to do with knowing they have done something wrong, or feeling guilty – more that I am behaving, in their eyes at least, in a strange, scarey and recognisably angry way, with deep, growling voice and sharp movements, and it is all the more scarey for being such a rare occurrence. They respond with every calming, placating gesture they know, just to make me stop. It is very different behaviour to what I see when I just say “Oy!”, or “Ah-ah!” – which is usually a quick glance my way, followed up by a relaxed, waggy tail approach.
Steve – I love what you say about a dog body language apology. That is exactly what I find myself doing, in just those circumstances.
Michele says
I think there are probably very very few individuals, if any, who can claim to be 100% positive all of the time. I think it depends on the dog and the context. If I’m training my soft younger dog to perform an agility related behavior, she’ll get no corrections. If I’m training my tough-not older dog to not chase cars, then perhaps a correction might be in order. One thing we should always strive to be is compassionate and fair. Just this morning, both of my dogs caught sight of a chocolate bar and were interested, so I just said, in a neutral voice “no, leave it”. They left it. No harm. But should I say nothing and wait for them to choose not to eat it? Hmm….. BTW, looking very forward to your seminar in Pittsburgh this summer!!!!
Katie Way says
I love the discussions this has inspired, but I haven’t seen anyone comment on how hard this (avoiding monkey-brain reactivity or negative/punishment stuff) can be with a disabled dog (blind or deaf, both). One of my own dogs is a deaf Great Dane with limited vision, and if she is not in plain, head-on view of my face, I cannot stop her from counter-surfing or even sometimes jumping to reach the TOP of the fridge. I use this as an example only because it’s her most common “problem” – this is also a common problem for hearing and seeing dogs. For any of my other dogs, I would call them to me, say “ah ah”, or if I’m RIGHT there, body block. Unfortunately, when you have a deaf dog who isn’t 100% trustworthy, you also apparently cannot relax around the house…I have, at times, had to poke her, “catch her in the act”, slip a lead around her head and walked her away, even squirted her while I was doing dishes and already had the squirter in my hand. I immediately feel like a low-down-and-dirty-reactive-primate after doing this, but laser pointers/flashlights/other “deaf dog attention-getters” don’t matter to a big Great Dane with an entire loaf of bread in between her jaws.
I have been a (“positive”, or as I often say to clarify, “gentle” or “without force”) dog trainer for about 5 years now, but have only ever worked with a few disabled dogs, and only 2 of those dogs were deaf. One other trainer confessed to me that they used a shock collar on “low” to get their deaf dog’s attention, which I found ridiculous, since they DO make vibrate-only collars. The real problem, though, is the “recall” of a deaf dog – you have to do SOMETHING to get their attention, and even though my Dane very often DOES watch me and take cues from me, she just won’t look at me every second of her life. There’s other life to be looked at and smelled, and if she isn’t on a leash and I’m out of sight, this can be very frustrating! Is there anything truly positive, gentle, and non-punishing that can accomplish this?
Outside of the hardships of working with disabled dogs, I use “punishment” in the forms of body blocks, ignoring/look aways, and sometimes “ah ah”s. I don’t say “no” only because it’s so easy to and because we, as people, say it so often. Of course tone is all that matters, but I don’t refrain from “no” for the dog’s sake, but for the person’s. I think once you work hard enough on your primate-self and try to rid that reactionary word from your repertoire, you think on a different level and it becomes easier to understand and communicate with your dog. All of these things could be considered punishment on some level, or negative, but I don’t see it that way at all. Maybe the labeling and the words are the real problems?
Marguerite says
This discussion reminds me of a three-part classroom exercise a friend of mine uses in her community college psychology classes. In each of the exercises, she goes out of the room while the class decides on a behavior she is to perform (perhaps stand in a particular corner). One time they try to direct her using only “yes.” Another time, only “no.” And the third time, both “yes” and “no.”
As you might guess, the speed with which she is able to “learn” the desired behavior is fastest with “yes and no.”
And it is for that reason that my dogs will sometimes hear “too bad” and get no treat for running around a jump or breaking a stay. And then we can have a jackpot party when they get it really right. And when they do get it really right, I stop training that exercise until another session. It took me a while to learn that I was confusing them if I kept drilling after they had figured it out. It was as though they were thinking, “well, what do you REALLY want? How about this? Or that?” I think the rewarded behavior needs time to jell (maybe it settles into long-term memory) before revisiting the training.
Marie says
I had a basic class today and really made it a point to note what I did. I used my body to block a dog in a very slight way, I stopped walking when teaching heel when a dog jumped and I always use a sound for no, Can’t even type it phonetically, but something like “awAAA!” Are these aversives? I still don’t think so. I stopped walking the dog who jumped when I was teaching heeel to calm the dog. As soon as the dog say and calmed down, marked the behavior and treated and off we went.
I think the things I do that could be considered negative are just setting the dog up to succeed. Nothing I have ever done causes the dog stress or pain.
To me, this is about words and how we communicate their meanings.
Kozzykats says
Very interesting topic and a great discussion thus far – can’t wait to see Trish’s comments.
I consider myself to be a 95% positive reinforcment trainer. I’ve trained in one of the box stores and found that some clients cannot grasp positive reinforcement entirely and sometimes, a little punishment was necessary because of the situation, i.e. the person and the dog. Sometimes it was the difference between keeping a dog and sending it to a shelter.
example – I had a feeble client come to me with with a 7 months old 100-pound Bull Mastiff (don’t ask me why this person would have this type of dog, that’s an entirely different matter) who had absolutely no manners whatsoever.
One of her chief complaints was that the dog pulled on leash nearly knocking her to the ground on almost every walk and also knocked her son over. When she came to class the dog was wearing a pinch collar. Now as much as I wanted to change the equipment immediately, I could not do that because the dog would have most likely seriously injured the woman or her son on their walks. So I first had to teach her how to use that pinch collar properly with the caveat that once we got the dog under somewhat control – we would transition to a no-pull harness or head halter. Happily we did transition to a no-pull harness. If we’re talking 100% positive reinforcement, even using that equipment could be considered “aversive”. For that dog, the pinch collar was not too much (even though I loathed using it as it goes against my beliefs as a trainer) however, it was needed at that time.
Now, switching gears – I own a Brittany and she could not function on a pinch collar, nor would I ever use one on her because she is an extremely soft dog compared to that bull mastiff I trained. I have used the “be a tree” method, which is considered somewhat “aversive” and that is enough to get her paying attention. I’ve also used “no” or “eh eh” with her as well.
We also train in agility. In that circumstance, I am as close to 100% PR as is humanly possible for me. I do my best to not show frustration if she makes the wrong choice -we just go with it and I allow her choose to do it or not.
I’ve seen extraordinary results with PR, but have come to realize that sometimes punishment (non-physical) may be useful at times.
Erin says
Marie- I agree with Frances. This crouch behavior is fairly natural in most dogs when facing a larger, dominant, or agressive opponent. It is ment to convey the meaning “I am no threat to you.” or “I didn’t mean to make you mad.” It does not always mean that they know what they did wrong, but it does mean that they know they did something to displease you. Crouching or lying down is one step short of the dog rolling over and exposing her belly to say “Look, I’m just a puppy, don’t hurt me.” I try to remember when I personally start yelling that I make the most sense (if it is necessary to yell) when I yell and then stop right away after the dog stops its behavior. Rants do not make sense to dogs and neither do grudges. This is understandibly very hard and takes a very concious effort as we primates and humans are programed to yell, rant, and hold grudges. hope this helps.
Martha says
Same as with people-it’s not what you say it’s HOW you say it (the tone).
The tone is significant.
Saying “yes!” with warmth and love goes such a long way in shaping behaviour.
Too many sharp,irritated “no’s” swing (a dog) into irritability and negativity.
Celebrate the good stuff!
Kelly Sullivan says
I consider myself a positive trainer and follow the LIMA Principle (Least Invasive Minimally Aversive) but I am by no means “All Positive.” I’m a cross-over trainer and I’ve found that, like Steve White has said, the longer I use positive reinforcement, the less I use punishment or negative reinforcement. I believe positive reinforcement is the healthiest learning for the animal but I think it’s also important to balance the real -world needs and abilities of my clients against the ideal. I strive to provide clear consequences and help people develop better communication with their dogs, without pain or fear.
Plus, I’m not sure having no negative feedback whatsoever is a good thing. Inevitably the dog will come up against something aversive in his environment. How will he react is he has no experience with even mildly punishing consequences? Not to say we should all start punishing our dogs to get them used to it, but I do wonder if lack of experience would turn a mild aversive into a major punishment.
Javi Martinez says
Uff!! Interesting question and debate!
I have participated in some debates about this topic with beers and chips, 🙂 and I think is absolutely impossible because we don
Lori says
I consider myself a mostly positive trainer. I do not intentionally use postive punishment- I do not use leash corrections, verbal +P markers (like AH AH, NO), swats on nose, butt, or physical manipulation. I DO ignore bad/inappropriate behavior and teach and reward excessively appropriate behaviors. Maybe I’m just lucky- but this seems to work for me. I do train for competition- and I still don’t use a NRM, if I’m skilled enough I can get the desired behavior without telling the dog he is “wrong”- no reinforcement means he didn’t get it right.
THAT BEING SAID- remember, Punishment as well as Reinforcement ARE IN THE EYES OF THE DOG and the EFFECT IT HAS ON BEHAVIOR. Not what we think, do, feel or believe. Kathy Sdao wrote a great article on how food can become aversive in a recent APDT Chronicle- so with all the “best intentions” we may be inadvertantly introducing a punisher (food!) in certain situations.
I do use -R for some situations- but for my fearful dog, -R is actually extremely aversive. I used the “turn away from dog to stop jumping behavior” and he acted like I beat him with a stick- rolling onto his back and submissively peeing. Instead I started putting the jumping up on cue, and then got it (mostly 🙂 ) under stimulus control. I’m the crazy trainer that clicks/treats and names “poor behavior” and have had good success with it. You should see how cute it is when you have a dog who used to growl in fear at things growl on cue. (he growls but the emotional aspect of it is anything but fearful).
So, can I say I’m 100% positive? Nope. There are things I do inadvertently that are +P to my dogs. Additionally, I can’t say that if I had a life-threatening behavior in my dogs that I wouldn’t use other means to stop that behavior- of course starting with the least aversive first.
Jeff Line says
I use the term primarily positive to apply to my techniques. I have seen the benefits of primarily positive methods with my perennially behaviorally challenging crossover dog. For all her issues, when we start training she is attentive and willing to offer behaviors with which I can work. Nevertheless, I say no ( my dogs seem to “get” that it means interrupt your current behavior), I use body blocking with some regularity (5 dogs, 4 over 80 pounds) and what I frankly regard as the harshest thing I do which is take space. I feel like when I loom into their space with the intention of altering behavior, it is a fairly aversive thing to do to them. I feel this way even though all my dogs at least tolerate and on occasion seem to embrace the primate hug.
Chris Shaughness says
I am absolutely 100% positive. I don’t even like body blocking and I avoid using “no” because it’s almost as meaningless as your dog’s name at times. Being all positive translates into accepting that you will lose clients because many people are looking for quick fixes. Positive training takes time and dedication but the results are so worth it!
Dena (Izzee's Mom) says
I am by no means an “all positive” trainer. But the world is not all positive, and I think that feedback for incorrect responses is useful. I use much lighter collar corrections than I did 12 years ago, and many fewer of them. But I still find them one helpful tool. My goal is always to improve communication with the dog, and to help the dog understand what I want.
Steve says
I don’t believe any trainer can be all positive. It assumes that the dog does exactly what you want the first time, and even then, if he is doing something else, by definition, it is a punishment.
A few things to clarify that remark. First, punishment is the decrease in a behavior in the presence of a stimulus. Second, behavior is always happening, even when someone is doing nothing, that is a behavior.
So, let’s say your have your dog out for a walk and he gets on the trail of a squirrell. You decide to head back to the car and call your dog who happily comes to you. You reinforce the come with a treat, get in the car and leave. In this example, several things are going on. I would argue that the recall is a positive punishment. You’ve added something – the recall – to end or decrease the behavior – stop tracking. You’ve positivly reinforced the behavior of coming to you by giving the reinforcer when the dog reaches you, and you’ve negatively punished the walk by leaving or decreased the walking by removing the two of you from the walk.
I think the important theing is to use something I’ve seen coming up a lot lately and has (by James O’Heare for one) been termed “Least Intrusive Effective Behavior Intervention.”
Just my two cents.
Frances says
I do sometimes wonder if my conversion to reward based training has something to do with many years of living with cats (note I do not say “owning” or “training”!). Tilly-cat lines up and sits with the dogs for after walk treats – and I know could be readily encouraged into all sorts of tricks with a clicker. My cats usually come when called, having learned as kittens that Good Cats Get Biscuits. Whenever I see videos of trainers using forceful methods, I find myself mentally replacing the dog with a large cat, and visualising the results. Different animals, different ethology, etc, etc, I know – but still a salutary mental exercise!
Beth says
To those who say they are all positive: Can I ask what is wrong with saying “no”? I know the dolphin trainers use all positive, but then again the dolphins are mostly doing tricks. I can get my dogs to do all sorts of tricks with no corrections. One does not need to live with a dolphin in the same home, though. So for instance, for the all-positive trainers, what do you say if your dog dives into the garbage pail? Or your adult dog is stealing socks?
Why is it wrong to say “no” sometimes? After all, my two dogs correct each other on a semi-regular basis; it seems a normal and natural part of communication. I would not want to go through my own life with no one every telling me “no.”
Just curious.
AnneJ says
I am not all positive in the least. I do some clicker training, but I also will correct things that are just not allowed, and train working dogs with sheep where the clicker just doesn’t work as well as a traditional method.
Beth says
I did notice several of the people who said they are “all positive” do agility. Of course in the agility ring, constant high enthusiasm is crucial. I just wonder if the “all positive” extends to manners? After all, stepping back when a dog jumps up is a case where an action decreases activity, and is that not “punishment” in operant conditioning terms?
Marcy says
I don’t use all positives. Many, many years ago when I first started dog training, I rarely ever praised or rewarded my dog (Food? Horrors!). Then I began learning about Clicker training and how to actually train behaviors. Now I use punishment when necessary. I often say no or use an NRM sometimes my punishment is more physical. I define necessary as saving the dog’s life, correcting a behavior that is so bad that someone (my dog, another dog or human) might get hurt. I try to never use punishment when training new behaviors, but I do think it’s necessary to use correction sometimes.
I would not sign a pledge saying I wouldn’t use punishment, because it has such a broad definition. Are they referring to an AH-AH? The word No? A collar correction? An ear pinch? (used correctly an ear pinch is R- not P+ or P-).
I think too many people define any kind of punishment as abuse, when used properly it’s not. It’s too bad there are trainers out there that use abuse to train dogs. Those of us who use punishment sparingly often get lumped in with the bad trainers.
Kat says
The more I read these thoughtful comments the more I’m realizing that it all boils down to giving the dog the information needed for the dog to succeed in the least amount of adversives possible. If I’m training Ranger to do a trick simply for our own amusement I can do that with no adversives but if I’m teaching him skills necessary to keep him safe (no going out the gate without permission) I give him more feedback in the form of adversivese such as the negative sound, body blocks, gate slammings and even screaming no at the top of my lungs if that’s what it takes. I’ll use whatever method is necessary to give him the information he needs when it is a matter of safety. When it is just a fun exercise I can be 100% positive. Come to think of it, that pretty well sums up how I taught the children as well.
Thea Anderson says
A lot of people have said that 100% positive training is impossible, with the implied assumption that whatever keeps the dog out of mischief or danger is aversive. Not so for my dog. She loves to “leave it” because I taught her that when she leaves the forbidden object she will get something BETTER. In fact, she will gratuitously demonstrate “leave it” by making eye contact with me before sniffing the trash then immediately running to her corner and looking at me expectantly. None of her commands are aversives, because they all present the possibility that she might earn delicious treats for doing as I say. She loves her leash and harness because they signal that we’re going for a walk, and when I pick up her leash again after letting her romp around it just means we’re moving on to the next thing, and she trusts me that it’ll be something good. For our walks I taught her directional cues so that I never need to yank her by her leash if I want to turn a corner or if she’s in someone’s way. If she starts to run out in front of me I say “come back” before the leash gets tight, and she will take a flying leap back to heel position—there’s no way that’s aversive to her.
Steve, I disagree with the statement that strictly positive reinforcement requires the dog to get it right the first time. You can start by rewarding behavior that is just less bad than average, and raise criteria from there. I did this with my dog, and I felt like a chump every time I gave her a treat for growling but not barking, or for quiet barks instead of obnoxious piercing ones, but she actually caught on pretty quick. Punishment isn’t the only way to stop unwanted behaviors, and if something you do causes a behavior to decrease that doesn’t necessarily make it punishment. There’s also extinction, when the dog chooses other behaviors instead because the other behaviors are more rewarding.
Shannon B. says
Trish, your photos are always so beautiful, may I ask what kind of camera do you use? Also, for the really up close shots, do you use your macro setting?
As for 100% positive, well, try as I might, I don’t think I am 100% anything. If you ask have I ever hit my dog or punished him for something he has done, well of course my answer is no. (Any mistakes he makes are clearly my fault.) Have a tripped over him in an physical way, unfortunately yes, but he is a “velcro” dog so it is hard not to. Would my tripping over him be considered adversive? I hope so… perhaps it will teach him to watch out for that clumsy two legger that he lives with 😉
Alexandra says
Beth – I think if you can’t muster a higher value reinforcement than the manners you are trying to teach and you can’t ignore the bad manners for safety reasons, you have two options: aversive consequence with training an incompatible, heavily rewarded behavior OR premack a more desirable behavior using the unwanted behavior as a reward. I try to think of ways to use the premack principle as much as I can, but I’m not always that creative. Disclaimer: my younger dog still attempts to lick the salad dressing bottles in the fridge door on a fairly regular basis. Yes, I can ask him to sit instead but a quick knee-block is easier. I’m not going to swat him, though, just my personal choice after seeing how my relationship changed with my older dog while using a prong collar. Physical punishment is always a last resort for me. I draw a line between physical punishment versus a mild aversive consequence like a body block or a time-out for the dog. Not proud of myself when I yell, but chasing my cat got both dogs yelled at and leashed up when they were puppies, for example but I also worked on building a positive association for not chasing the cat by feeding all the animals treats together. I couldn’t exactly let them go chase the cat as a reward and I had an obligation to my cat to not allow the dogs to harass her. Sock stealing I just substituted a more appropriate toy, so now I have two dogs that occasionally bring me socks for a reward.
Karissa says
I’m a big fan of relationship-based training. Ultimately, you need to have a good, positive relationship with your dog in order to be successful and enjoy life together. Relationships are not necessarily purely positive. The majority of our lives together is fun, exciting & rewarding, but for their own safety, there are boundaries put in place that they must follow.
I have an e-collar. Many of my friends would be shocked to know that it has been used on my eldest dog, as in the eyes of most people he is as close to “perfect” as a dog can be. My relationship with him is hard to describe — He’s the least “doggy” dog I know and often seems to understand things that dogs just shouldn’t understand. He is my partner in all that I do. BUT he had a horrible, horrible habit — He barked in the car. At EVERYTHING. Considering that I am driving when he does this, there was no way for me to correct this in a positive manner. The e-collar fixed this problem in one day, set on level 2 (of 10).
Granted, I don’t believe that anything taught with punishment lasts forever. Old habits creep back and every now and then he needs the collar put back on for a reminder. It doesn’t even need to be used, just the act of having it on him makes him aware that the barking won’t be tolerated.
The e-collar has also been used on my young BC. She has been trusted off leash since the day she arrived. Her recall is what most people would consider fantastic. But every now and then she finds some dead, rotting carcass that beckons her — or some other unsavory thing that might not be good for her, or be in a location that is not safe (the railroad tracks, as an example). I have used the e-collar to show her that even though she might be 50 yards away from me, I *do* in fact still have a say in her behavior. The e-collar is paired with reward — Initially she required more of a correction (level 4), but now the collar can be set to a mild 2 and as soon as she feels that tingle she stops what she is doing and runs to me for her reward (if she didn’t stop on the verbal warning first!). My end goal is always reward/positivity.
I use NRM in my agility training, but only after I know the dog knows what it is supposed to do (so, blowing contacts, popping weaves, etc.). Any time I’m training something new, the dog is never wrong. I keep the energy up and we try again. In clicker training, I ignore any behavior that isn’t related to what I am asking and reward for any progress towards the goal.
My dogs have a very privileged life. They are balanced and happy because they know what is expected of them. My life revolves around providing them with enrichment, so they have it pretty good. But every now and then their actions have consequences, and they quickly learn what behaviors to avoid and what behaviors bring rewards.
R.D.L. says
I believe that whether something is aversive or not is dependent on whether the dog thinks it is. Some dogs can’t handle a no-reward-marker and in that case I ignore the wrong response. Some confident and outgoing dogs would shake it off and not be fazed at all. At the end of the day my choice would be to use aversives if the refusal to do so would have bad consequences and I have already tried or considered positive and negative reinforcement. The use of any aversive should always be carefully considered before applying.
Barbara says
Is anybody 100%? Even if we try to be all positive (and I do try), we have no control over what our dogs might view as aversive. The first time I turned my back on my Tashi (Rottweiler mix, adopted at age 1), she nearly melted into the floor. I felt HORRIBLE!!! If someone only saw her reaction, they might have thought I kicked her. And this is a dog who took 1,000 porcupine quills to the face and walked into the vet’s office wagging her tail. So much for negative punishment doing no harm. It’s difficult to know what a dog will find aversive. All the more reason to try and keep it positive! And if you’ve ever lived with a fearful dog, you know there’s no other way . . .
Mary says
I try use positive reinforcement as much as possible. As others have said, it depends on the dog. When the collie is eating mushrooms or cat poop in the yard, if I yell “NO”, the BC immediately cringes and lies down. The collie barely looks up… and may eat faster. Obviously, raising my voice is traumatic for the BC, and not so much for the collie. However, when I first started taking herding lessons, I was disturbed at how much yelling there was and wondered if there was a way to teach herding positively. Interestingly, my BC is not quite as sensitive to the raised voice while herding. I do realize now that when a sheep is being chased (and the dog can run faster than you), you don’t have too many positive options .
That said, I think that punishment for any behavior arising from anxiety or fear is counterproductive (unless someone’s life is in danger). I DID use an aversive when my BC was about 3 months old. Thankfully it was only slightly aversive, realizing now what caused the behavior. Afterward a long play session, he would jump up on me and be growly/nippy with me. I tried re-directing him to a toy, ignoring him, walking out of the room, EVEN spraying a water bottle at him. He would stop for a couple seconds, then resume his nipping. I thought “I have a mean puppy” and put him in his crate. He would fall asleep immediately. After a couple times of this (duh) I realised he was getting over-tired – like how some kids get crabby when they’re tired. That drive to keep “working” was in him even as a puppy. (He’s totally fine now – loves people, has never remotely wanted to nip anyone, would slink away in shame if he ever hurt someone.)
Dr. Sophia Yin shows a video in her seminars of her teaching her dog to heel using leash pops, vs teaching with PR. She acknowledges that using corrections can work (if you time them correctly), but points out that you watch closely, the heeling with leash pops shows a dog that is not as “perky” or confident as the heeling with PR…and that she would rather have the happy, confident dog.
Steve says
@ Thea, I see what you’re saying, and granted I’m grossly over-simplifying, but still… let’s take the other day when we were playing 101 things to do with a box where there are no wrong answers. As Duncan (my Brittany) moves to a closer approximation after say 5 trials, the previous approximation is put on extinction, so I stop reinforcing the previous approximation and look for the closer approximation. In his frustration, Duncan went back to the previous approximation which no on extinction, so the reinforcer has been removed, or negative punishment… But then the reinforcer wasn’t present when he went back to the previous approximation so something can’t be taken away if it isn’t present to begin with. I think I may have just disproved my previous arguement. (I love this board for exactly that reason.) Food for thought I guess.
Erin says
I think that sometimes ignoring our dogs for a certain behavior instead of respoinding with a firm no is wrong. Today I wanted my dog to relieve but she wanted to go play in the yard. She is pretty polite and asked for permission first. She looked at me then looked at the yard, looked at me looked at the yard, wagged her tail in a goofy way that means she wanted to play. Once I understood what she wanted I responded with a firm “no” and she understood that I didn’t want her to go play right now because I really wanted her to relieve and so she did. I think it would have been rude not to say no or discourage her behavior. Think: if you asked your mom if you could go to a friends house and she had ignored you. You would think she either didn’t hear you, didn’t understand, or was being rude and would continue to ask her until she gave some response. Sometimes no can be a punishment or an adversive but sometimes it can just be another word in a conversation between you and your dog.
Michy says
Before I read the next article or all these comments, I’m going to say what I’m thinking, and then go from there. I do tend to try to be quite positive with our dogs, and it’s generally working well. But I can’t say I’m 100% positive, as I’m okay with using NRM or mild aversives. All of our dogs know that my saying “Ehh ehh” in my ‘buzzer’ voice means “Stop that now and pay attention to me”. Generally then I call them to me, ask for a Sit or Down, and then reward for that. And of course, the reward depends on the dog, although food is pretty good for these 4 most of the time. Missy could live on petting and cuddling, and Lassie will do almost anything for a thrown toy to fetch, but Jupe and Krissie are all about the food.
I do use very mild leash corrections with dogs that pull, but not an actual pop or anything. I try to reward heavily for keeping a loose leash, but our previous husky would just “forget” not to pull, and if I gently pulled back on the leash he would stop tugging so hard. I let him keep it taut, as he preferred that, but when it got to be too much for me, I’d simply pull back a bit more, and he’d ease up. The only time any truly aversive punishments were used on Zeus, was when he grabbed a cat and shook her, and The Mate got right in his face and yelled at him while scruffing him. He made either a growl or other similar noise, and TM was so angry he alpha rolled him and yelled at him never to do that again and that the cats were to be left alone, then got up and walked away. Zeus never ever tried to bite a cat again, and in fact seemed to understand cats were part of the family, and started to love kittens. Would I recommend that to anybody? Hell, no. But in that ONE case, that ONE time, apparently it did the trick. I dunno, he always did seem smarter than any other dog I’ve known.
I love working with the clicker, it really seems to be easier to teach things with it. I’ve been working on capturing with Krissie, and she’s so into it, and it’s hilarious to watch her do the behavior, and freeze in position and roll her eyes in my direction, waiting for the click. Okay, I’m going to read the comments here, and then the new article!
JJB says
As other posters have stated, it would be helpful to define the terms, positive and punishment so we are all talking about the same thing. At the same time, I think we can take some good guesses about what it means in the contract. (I think the contract is a bad idea, but that isn’t what I want to talk about.)
Worrying about whether saying “no” counts as punishment misses the point. It’s not about a scientific definition. What matters is common usage, because I believe it is common usage that rules when people are asking you to sign silly contracts that say you only use positive training methods. Electrocuting your dog, hitting, choking, jerking, emotionally crippling, and causing any kind of physical pain are examples of training methods that I would guess the contract would consider unacceptable. I would guess that most people would admit those training methods fall into the “punishment” camp, even if they do those things to their dogs themselves and don’t see a problem with it.
The point is that there is a set of training methods that a group of people consider generally/often/normally offensive or inhumane or undesirable or abusive or etc. They’ve put those training methods into a category that they call “punishment”. It is a way to distinguish themselves from people who use leash pops and electrocution and domineering training methods as their first go-to “teaching” method. While there is a lot of gray area that people will disagree on, I think there is a core set of values and methods that a lot of people can agree on–regardless of the dog in question. I would say that the techniques that say, uh Trisha talks about in her published books fall into the category of “positive” training methods. Using other training methods doesn’t necessarily make you a bad person, but it could mean you have broken the contract.
It is helpful to have a single word to use to cover a set of training methods instead of having to spell out the details in every sentence. Since “punishment” and “positive only” as terms clearly do not work (based on this discussion) and cause a lot of confusion, it would be nice to come up with other terms.
I think that “rewards-based” training is a good start as a term, but it doesn’t cover training methods like body blocks, saying some version of “no”, time outs in a crate, etc. – all training methods that also fall into the enlightened category and that I seriously doubt would be breaking the above mentioned contract even if it would be breaking the contract from the scientific definition of punishment.
I got my Great Dane when he was 3 years old and completely untrained. I found out early that if I held onto his collar to hold him in one place for a second, he started choking. Just the slightest pressure on the front of his neck can cause him to choke. I believe the people who had Duke before me abused a choke chain. My parent’s dog couldn’t bark properly as he got older because of their use of a choke chain while walking him. They just had it on him. (A practice they now regret.) He dragged them with the choke chain, not seeming to be bothered by it, the entire walk almost every day his whole life. You can say, well, they didn’t use it right so that story doesn’t count. Here’s my response: There are serious consequences to using punishment-based (for lack of a better term) training, because those methods can so easily go wrong and seriously hurt a dog. Thus, I think it’s a perfect story/example of why choke/pinch/electrocuting/etc. training methods are a bad idea 99.9999% of the time.
While I think the contract is a bad idea for a whole bunch of reasons, encouraging humane training methods is surely a good idea for an even bigger bunch of reasons.
Leah Roberts says
I use only positive reinforcement and negative punishment in training scenarios. And even when using -P, it is an inefficient method unless it is paired with +R (if you tell a dog “this doesn’t work,” you have to tell him what DOES work or you end up with a frustrated dog). I don’t believe there is any reason ever to use force, fear, pain or intimidation in order to train a dog. In an emergency crisis situation maybe (i.e., tackling an untrained dog to stop him from running into the street), but NEVER in a training situation.
Force-based trainers (those who use choke, prong, and shock collars, or physically manipulate dogs with their hands) always parrot “there is no one way to train a dog” in justification of their methods. And they’re right! Dogs are individuals, and no one technique will work on all dogs. However, there are a myriad of techniques and methods within the +R/-P spectrum, and a good trainer will always be adding more to his/her toolbox. There are some dogs who really challenge us to dig into our own creativity and patience as trainers. But to resort to force is never acceptable. It’s a failure on the part of the trainer.
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Charles Couturier says
I read all the comments.
I’d like to ask doctor McConnell, do you consider yourself as mostly positive? Do you consider the words “Enough” or for instance body blocking a dog, as being positive?
Were you aware that these practices (techniques) or perceived as “negative” on most positive groups, to the point which you’re being censured?
Trisha says
Oh yes, I’m well aware that some “all positive” groups think that body blocks are perceived as negative and thus I’m not on the list of appropriate trainers. I still use body blocks to teach stay, because they are a quiet signal that is easily understood by dogs, that involve nothing scary or hurtful, and that lead to an immediate and wonderful positive reinforcement. To each his own.
Charles G. Couturier says
Hi doctor McConnell,
May I – for fun, sake of doing a bit of philosophy here – challenge you a bit on that?
I believe you use body blocks for more than teaching stay. You’re (smartly I think) use it for educating dogs in regard to matter which would be more difficult to teach through operant conditioning. I have space management in mind, resource management would be another example.
For instance in this quote here:
“back her away by moving directly toward her, herding her with body blocks away from the door.” (The Other End of The Leash, iBook so sorry no page num), you’re effectively transiting to body push, which is awesome when correctly used.
The reason for me mentioning all that, will become apparent after next quote, and it’s in line with the very topic of this blog entry:
“It’s actually very easy to teach dogs to be polite when they greet you or when they want to come cuddle up on the couch. You just have to stop acting like a human and learn to move like a dog. Rather than backing up when a friendly but rude dog lunges toward you, use the body blocks that we talked about in Chapter 2 to protect the personal space around you.” (From the same book).
Now, as you mention, it’s not that difficult to talk dog to a dog. What’s not so easy to figure, is the moral aspect of it. Can we stop acting like human in other regards, can we transition to animal morality? Probably not.
Let me give you a fair example of a day where I walked on the line (I may have crossed it I don’t know). I show up at the dog park, like every day at lunch time. 2 people exit, “swearing”. “What’s up? Or what’s down?” ; “It’s Groofy – the 3yo standard poodle – Ana’s daugther forgot the chemical castration, is passed due by 3 months, he humps everyone. So we have to leave it’s unfair. Ana has no control over him” ; “Humm sad, have a nice day still”
Of course, it tried on my geisha (2yo Shiba Inu that can’t say no). At some points, she tries to growl (unusual). So. Body block + push once, twice, third time with a bit of verbal marker (I was planing my next move). As you know, it works. So as long as I was close, he gave us 3 solid meters of distance. I move away, he tries, verbal cue, and he thought “My bad this guy is everywhere”.
Case solved, for that lunch time, and all the others that followed. No hard feeling buddy, I love you, but I just wanted to tell you in your language, that this resource is not available.
Here, I used animal morality. But positive? To the eyes of this Poodle, it’s null communication. Nor positive nor negative. There are other females this one is not available. But to the eyes of humans? I don’t think so. It would probably get me banned in a lot of FB groups. We need debates on all that.
Trisha says
You’re right Charles about what I wrote re body blocks in OEL (feels like so long ago!). All I can say about the “all positive” perspective” is that deciding what is ‘positive’ is not always as simple as it might look on the surface. I’ve seen no small number of dogs who appeared to be extremely frustrated when the trainer was using “all positives”. That said, I used PR 98-99% of the time in my training, but I think some of the debates about what is “positive” aren’t very helpful or illuminating. I’m proud of being one of the staunchest advocates for positive reinforcement back in the late 80’s on, when most of the trainers were using leash jerks, harsh voices and even hanging dogs in the air. I’ll leave it at that and go do what feels most important–playing with my dogs.