I’m between washing off the sweat and dirt from worming our lambs and finishing my talk on Play in Toronto (got some great new video!), but I couldn’t get on the plane without adding a few more words about Hope, Willie and the comments that have come in. I know that many readers don’t read the comments, so I thought I’d address some of the questions that came up after my last post about Hope and Willie.
If you haven’t read yesterdays post, I wrote to alert readers that it is not yet clear to me that Hope is the right dog for Redstart Farm. He’s only 5 months old, and I won’t decide what is best for me, him or Willie until he gets older, but I wanted to let readers know that there are some red flags rising, so that you wouldn’t be blindsided if I decide he’s not a good fit. I didn’t write the post for me, I wrote it because I’m aware that many readers become attached to my dogs–I will be forever grateful for the hundreds of sweet comments written when Lassie died. I’ve posted lots of pictures of Hope and Willie playing well, but I realized that I wasn’t presenting the whole story, and that wasn’t fair in a way to not alert you to the possibility of problems down the road. There is one thing I wrote yesterday that needs amending. I wrote: “And so, here I am, in the process of deciding whether Hope is the right dog for Willie.” What I should have written is: “.. whether Hope is the right dog for me, for Willie, for Redstart Farm, and if we are the right home for him.”
Ironically, one reader commented that it seemed I was uncomfortable with uncertainty, so perhaps I shouldn’t have gotten a puppy. I’ve always said, in numerous writings and speeches, that you can never tell how well one dog will do in an environment until they’ve been there for awhile. That’s doubly true with puppies, and so when I got a puppy I was, and am, perfectly comfortable knowing that I can’t know if it’s a good match until it some time passes. That’s especially true of working herding dogs–you simply can’t know if their style will match yours until they are 10 to 12 months of age. I’m fine with that, although of course I’d much rather not be seeing some potential red flags. It’s traditional to “audition” working dogs, to see if you and they are a good match. It’s not only commonly done, it’s considered responsible. You bring in a dog with potential, work together once they are old enough, and if you are responsible and wise, only keep the ones that match your own style and temperament and find the others a better match.
If Hope’s style of herding doesn’t match mine, that’s what I’ll do, for his sake and mine. If Hope and Willie end up being two males in one household who are always vigilant and anxious, I’ll find Hope a great home and be proud of all the time and energy I’ve put into giving him the best start possible. I’m perfectly okay with that, but I know that some readers are not.
There are two ways I could go here: Stop writing about my own dogs, and limit my posts to information about behavior and training. I’m fine with that, there’s so much of interest to talk about, and I love this international inquiry we all are in together. I’ve written about my own dogs as part of the blog for a few reasons, the most relevant being that I’ve always believed it is helpful to others to see how people who are considered experts handle real life. And real life is not black and white, it’s not always a happy movie, and it’s full of complexity and uncertainty. I’ve been reading an interesting book, titled Wrong, about the problems inherent in both research and pop “experts.” One of the author’s points is that the public wants experts to speak in absolutes, whether they are accurate or not, while scientists are often ignored, because the issues they are discussing are complex and can’t be understood in a 15 second sound bite. Although there indeed some black and whites to dog behavior, there are a lot of colors in between, and I will always be drawn to the golds and midnight blues of real life, and want to write about them.
But for now, since I have been writing about my dogs, know that I’m going to make a decision about Hope based on my responsibility to ensure that the dogs in my care live healthy, happy lives. If worst comes to worst (and I’m NOT saying it will, it’s much too soon to say), forcing dogs to stay together, even if they are anxious and uncomfortable when trapped in the same house, is not responsible, loving or kind. I have seen client after client who had 2 dogs who clearly were miserable living together, but the client could not bear to do what the dogs needed, which was live apart. If our herding styles don’t mesh, then I’ll find him a place where he can work sheep and be a loving and beloved member of the family. It’s a lovely egocentrism to believe that each one of us is the perfect home for every dog, and that if we just try hard enough we can fix anything, but every behaviorist in the country will tell you that’s not true. My decision will not only be made on whether Willie and Hope play well together (I might have emphasized that aspect of it too much in my previous post), it will be made on what is best for me, Jim, Willie and Hope. I’m comfortable that as time goes on I will know what I need to know to make that decision.
Eeeps, gonna miss my plane if I don’t wrap this up! One last point: I love that many of you have suggested an older female as a buffer. Great minds…. if I had $100 for every time I’ve said “If only Tulip were still alive,” I’d retire!
Here’s a photo to make us smile, smiling is a good thing, isn’t it?
Laurie says
Choosing and living with a pet is one of the most personal and valuable decisions we all make. Cheers to you for sharing your process with us. For me, the best question is whether the pet in question ends up in the best place for him/her while at the same time considering the other living creatures in the home. I have been fortunate my Aussies worked out their issues to become pals. At the same time, I has some flexibility. Mine is not a working home for them, and my relationship and work with them has leeway to be very individualized — based on what is fun or training on an issue, and not on where the sheep need to be now. You will do the best for you and your family. Thanks for sharing the journey with us!
EmilyS says
PLEASE keep writing about yourself and your dogs and let the (unfair) judgments fall as they may. “It IS [emphasis added] helpful to others to see how people who are considered experts handle real life”
Laurel says
I brought up the uncertainty issue in the earlier post: I would be very sad to have you stop writing about your own dogs because of it, since I love hearing about them and have no criticism of your (potential) plans to find Hope a new home. Rehoming a dog is a totally responsible thing to do, when it’s right for you and the dog (ditching a dog with no plan to get it a new good home is different, but everything you’ve written suggests you’d be thoughtfully finding him a lovely home with lovely people).
I just wonder whether it makes sense to try for an older dog next, given what you’ve said yourself about how much clearer dog personalities – and especially their relationships to hierarchy – are once they’ve stopped being submissive to everyone just because they’re puppies.
Martha says
I have been reading your blog for a little over four months – my husband and I adopted a cocker spaniel mix from a shelter in January with a terrible case of separation anxiety. Thanks to I’ll be Home Soon and consulting with our vet and a cpdt, he can now be left reliably for an hour (up from barely 30 seconds). We live in an apartment in NYC, and there have definitely been times that we worried that we were not the right home for him, that maybe he would be better served with a life outside the city, perhaps with retired owners who were home more, rather than a young working couple. I’m still not sure that we have been doing what is best for him, but we do believe that if we returned him to the shelter, the trauma of another abandonment might be too much for him.
That said, it means so much to me to read about your experience with Willie and Hope and trying to do what’s “right” for everyone, both two-and four-legged. I have never posted before, but the thought that you might not discuss your “home” dog life seems like such a missed opportunity for all of us. We gain so much context and feel so much hope (heh!) to hear your trials and tribulations – please don’t stop sharing with us!
Martha
Funder says
I really hope that you decide to keep sharing your experiences with us. Rehoming a dog is a gut wrenchingly hard decision, and there’s so little balanced advice about it. Things seem so polarized between “oh take it to the pound if it doesn’t work out” and “only a horrible person would ever rehome a beloved dog for any reason whatsoever.”
The kind of discussion you’re having here is incredibly valuable. I hope you’re not overwhelmed by negative comments, and you keep sharing your thoughts about Hope and Willie.
Eisen says
Thank you for writing about your dogs all of these years. It is part of what makes your writing so wonderful and touching. I hope negative sentiment will not make you feel like you need to stop. I think you raise a very good point that we can’t fix everything. It is our own selfish nature that makes us think otherwise. A dear friend of mine brought a puppy home many years ago to her mutli-dog household. At first it was fine, but as the puppy matured it became clear that her middle dog was very unhappy. He had tolerated the older male, but they were not friends. With the puppy he was absolutely miserable. It became apparent to her that her middle guy would be most happy as a single dog. She found him a wonderful, loving home that gave him all the attention and activity he deserved. I had mixed feelings about the re-homing at first, but I knew the dog in both homes, and as great as his first one was, he was so much happier in the second. It was really the best choice for everybody. (Coincidentally, my friend was also a dog trainer.) I know that you only have the best interest of all of your family members at heart and that you will make the right choice when the time comes.
Suzan says
I think that you should continue to write about your dogs. Nothing beats hearing about personal experiences, especially from you. I always learn something new from your posts.
Nothing in this world is perfect, and I believe that a dog must be a good fit for everyone concerned. I’ve seen too many people hold on to dogs because they felt guilty about giving them up, or cared more about their own emotional attachment than the health and happiness of their dog. I’ve also seen dogs and owners who were miserable in a mis-matched home. Once re-homed, these dogs blossomed and thrived in their new environment. If a dog isn’t a good fit, then for the sake of the dog and everyone concerned, re-homing is a good solution. I know others aren’t comfortable with that, but I am, having seen for myself what happens when a dog just isn’t in the right place.
K9-CRAZY says
Reading the comments I saw reflections of my past-self in them. Sitting on the sidelines and judging another person’s decision is dangerous, life experiences change people and you may find yourself in a similar spot one day, as I did.
Rehoming one of my dogs was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. It took me a long time to reach that point because I was worried about what people would think & say. I was uncomfortable with the thought myself as I really do feel that to bring a dog into your home is “for life”.
But she truly didn’t enjoy the other dogs and had to be separated or watched at all times. Managing a pack isn’t a pleasant way to live for anyone with extra crate time and the potential of a fight with damage. How is confinement, stress, unhappiness and tension bubbling under the surface fair to any of them? Yes, I could and did manage it but it wasn’t enough. It was life but it wasn’t living.
So she went to a new home and guess what? She’s happy! The woman who got her is happy! My own dogs are happy! We are happy!
Sometimes the most responsible action is to find the perfect match and let them go “for life”… we can’t be all things to all dogs as much as that may hurt our ego to admit. To have kept her would have been selfish and irresponsible.
Beth says
It had occurred to me, when I read the comments about your prior post, that working dogs are very frequently “started” by one handler before moving on (sometimes more than once) to new homes. I’m not dismissing the impact of rehoming, but a working dog who has a job as a significant focus of his life may perhaps view the whole situation differently from a pet, who has his family as the primary focus of his life. I am not at all implying that working dogs don’t bond with their handlers; they do. But we all know that people don’t generally raise their own service dogs, for example; they are typically born into one home, placed with a puppy-raiser, then move to the compound for intense training, then go to their working home, and then sometimes retire or are replaced as needs change.
I will never forget the horror with which some people reacted when we brought hom a retired show dog/ breeding bitch as our second dog. “You mean they just DIDN’T WANT HER???!!!” Trying to explain it wasn’t like that fell on deaf ears, so i just stopped explaining.
Good luck with your lengthy decision-making process, and thank you for sharing with the rest of us. It’s not easy to open up your own life to strangers.
Karen London says
I was discussing your blog with some of my local dog-savvy friends and associates, and we’re all in agreement: Good for you for honestly assessing the situation at Redstart Farm and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. Please, PLEASE keep writing about your own dogs on the blog. (If you stop posting pictures of the farm and all who dwell there, I will go into withdrawal, and I’m pretty sure you don’t want that on your conscience!)
Kathy says
I don’t have anything to add about the Hope and Willie debate–other posters have expressed ideas and opinions that seem to cover the whole spectrum, and you know best what ideas have merit and are most relevant to your situation anyway. You know you have my support 100% (whether it’s dog compatibility issues or lamb-related disasters), I just wanted to point out how amazingly cute and wonderful that beautiful puppy playing with Hope is 🙂
Roberta Beach says
Thanks for both posts. I have had to move rescue dogs on to other rescues not only for their benefit but the benefit of the entire pack here at Silverwalk. The pack, while relatively stable since they are hounds (not terribly in demand for adoption) and many seniors (even less so) does change. Adaptation is necessary and not always immediately apparent.
Let me assure you I do read the comments. Being a blogger myself, I really like comments – people show me different ways of looking at something – which you seem to be addressing in this second post about Hope. They also affirm or question what or why I am doing something or not – which often, like students, makes me look at what I may be doing by rote & recall the original rationale to see if it is still applicable.
Please cont. to write about your own dogs. Your writing about them gives me hope since I am no way the trainer you are but like to read/see how things really happen with others. I can find canned information almost anywhere but real life training and home adaptation happening in real time – only here. Thanks for sharing because you not only share your dogs but yourself and husband, home and work. You encourage me! Keep it up and I will cont. to read, listen to/between the words, learn and, hopefully, apply :)!
JJ says
I appreciate this additional explanation.
I also hope you will continue to write about your own dogs. It opens you up to criticism, but as you pointed out, it sure does help a whole bunch of us!!!!
As an example away from these particular posts, I always wanted to share this with you:
I had read a couple of your books/booklets and watched videos and felt like an absolute failure because I would see Duke doing tongue flicks. I really felt horrible. I was trying so hard to make Duke happy and tongue flicks were still part of his repitoire after living with me quite a while. Then one day I watched a different video (or read a different book or something) that talked about how dogs are different and while you maybe saw Luke tongue flick one or twice in his life, Lassie tongue flicked much more often in various situations (forgive me if I’m not remembering the specifics correctly). This was a huge relief to me. I almost started crying it was that much of a relief to know that I could do everything possible for Duke and he still might tongue flick. That’s what sharing about your own dogs can do. It can really help someone like me to understand your technical information much better.
Thanks.
Ellen H says
Sounds like a responsible decision way to make a decision. So easy to be ruled by our hearts not our heads.
When my dog with aggression issues passed away, I saw my other dog blossom. I never realized until then the affect the other dogs problems had on my second dog. It was an eye opener.
Still, I tend to think with my heart and would have a hard time making a head decision once I had come to know and love a dog. I applaud you for your openness. We can all learn from it. Please keep telling us your dog stories.
Laurie says
How very brave and generous you are to write so honestly about your personal experiences! I read this blog because it’s real. Please don’t stop writing about your dogs. This blog gives me the “I’m OK, your OK ” feeling. I crave the unvarnished truth about what’s really going on out there and this is one of the very few places I can satisfy that craving. Thank you so much.
Alexandra says
For those that do read the comments, here are the pictures that go with my earlier comments about my two dogs and them getting to know each other.
Copper and Izzy’s first meeting:
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh41/Arkahna/IMG_0014.jpg
Izzy is the black dog sitting riiiight next to me, and she was looking back and forth between me and puppy Copper with great concern. Cops picked his head up once, looked at her, sighed, and went right back to sleep. Not exactly love at first sight!
A few months later, they were playing all kinds of silly wrestle games in the house, and this picture makes me laugh every time I look at it:
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh41/Arkahna/CopsonIz.jpg
Today, my two clowns are BFFs, although Copper would generally like to share personal space more than Izzy does. This picture is an example of that and it is another that makes me laugh. Copper is blissfully unaware, happily chewing his bone, and Izzy has this expression like, “My brother is an idiot. Why can’t he chew that on his OWN bed?”
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh41/Arkahna/IMG_0030.jpg
I hope you guys enjoy; I love seeing all the pictures and videos that others post.
Matilda J says
I for one will always want to hear about your dogs! I still miss Tulip and Luke. I can’t even bear to think about Lassie yet.
The difference between you and so many people is that — if this does not work out — you won’t just dump Hope at a shelter or abandon him on the streets. I know you will find a GREAT home for him. So hold strong to you and be at peace with whatever you decide when it’s time. Too many people are too quick to judge. Don’t let them hurt you. Although I strongly believe when you bring a dog into the family it’s for life, this is a different story altogether. You’re not too busy or lazy or tired or just decided you don’t want a dog any more. You’re looking at the big picture of what is right for everyone involved, including Hope. Hang in there.
Ann W in PA says
Thank you, Trisha for sharing this part of your life with us. It must be hard sometimes.
I know someone who is right now struggling with their dogs not getting along, to the point of fights with injuries. Just as an observer and friend, it’s hard to bear all of their pain – people and dogs alike. But on top of that, this couple is experiencing overwhelming guilt and feeling they must have caused the issues (which they absolutely did not), and they have a strong sense of responsibility to MAKE it work, come hell or high water. I think they all deserve the very best life has to offer, and I think that’s more than everyone just tolerating one another – even if they can accomplish it. While it’s obvious from the last thread that they would be criticized by some for it, I hope that maybe your personal account can help them see rehoming as one potential option, without guilt and with a clear conscience. This couple and I volunteer for the same rescue, and that should probably make us *more* aware of the importance of finding a good match for every individual dog – but it’s hard for us to get past the DOGma I guess (wink.)
Jill says
Trish, don’t ever hold back… your openness is what makes your writing so captivating. It
Barb says
Whew! I’m one of those people who don’t read all of the reader comments, Trish, but it sounds like people were candid about their thoughts and feelings! Here’s to you! For posting the situation the way you saw it in the first place. And for posting this message to all of us who do read what you say!
I have two dogs, my first two Portuguese Water Dogs. (I came to dogs from horses in my early 50’s.) I compete with my dogs in obedience, agility, water work, and now conformation and tracking. My old guy was socialized a lot — took him out every day to a new place for over a year. He and I bonded as only two who share those experiences (including later competition) can. He is now 9 and I’ve made “mistakes” with him. He’s vocalizes his opinion much more than I would like, and I’ve reinforced it because he makes me laugh. He’s not as crisp at recall as I would like as I didn’t reforct that as I could have. There are other things that could be improved. But my heart belongs to him. He is beyond compare. And that’s why I knew that I needed to get a second dog.
I got another dog (a female who is now three) so that when my old guy dies, it won’t take me years to get another dog. I love training dogs. And I wanted the challenge of getting another dog to train. My boy loves other dogs and I wanted him to have a canine companion.
My three year old girl is the apple of my eye. She is marvelous. She adores my old boy. And I adore her. But it has taken me three years to get to this point with her. She has given me more challenges than I ever imagined a dog could!
She is extremely sound sensitive. We’ve gotten that pretty much under control. She is territorial. Finally, we’re getting that under control. She’s fearful around strangers. She’s gotten much better! And there are other concerns. I have thought (more than once) of giving her to a family who would love her and not want her to compete. And just about the time I thought that I was pressuring her too much, asking for more than she had to give — she’d mature right into what I was asking for.
So I was lucky. I’ve kept her, and it’s worked for the three of us. But I agree that it doesn’t always work. And if it doesn’t work for everyone in the relationship, then it’s best to find places where each being can be in the best environment.
Thanks, Trish, for your candor and your example and your reminder that what’s important is that the everyone has the best life possible.
Dena (Izzee's Mom) says
Don’t miss your plane, Trisha. Your engaging style has us all emotionally involved in the decision on where the best home for Hope will be. I, for one, appreciate the honest discussion that is arising from your willingness to write about this issue.
Amanda & the Mutts says
I don’t envy your situation at all. I know that the exact same decisions are waiting for me a few years down the line and all I can do is hope that I’m able to get through it smoothly.
I used to do a lot of puppy training/fostering for various programs and my Bailey was about Willie’s age when he finally found his “voice” and learned to stand up for himself (like Willie, he had a lot of issues earlier in life). I was lucky that having puppies around lead to Bailey learning assertiveness rather than causing him to get pushed around. I got my second (permanent) dog when he was 10 and I decided it wouldn’t be fair to make him put up with any more puppies. I got luckier than I ever would have imagined possible with a little bitch in rescue who is completely fine with letting him call the shots (and better yet, who adores me).
I am so hopeful my next addition will be as perfect.
I never used to care much for female dogs, but I have “come to the dark side” and realized how truly valuable they can be in making canine relationships work.
Lyn Elliott says
I can’t resist leaving a comment on these posts. You’ve shown incredible thoughtfulness and consideration in your decision-making about both Hope and Mick. I so appreciate you sharing your experience and the knowledge and wisdom you gain from it. I will certainly hope there is a happy ending possible with the addition of another dog, but it won’t surprise me if the happy ending for all concerned is another excellent home for Hope.
I don’t have any formal training, but I’ve been fostering dogs and (mostly) litters of puppies for several years, and I find the most fascinating thing about canine group dynamics to be that absolutely tiny changes or seemingly insignificant behaviors can create the most significant rifts. With new dogs coming and going with some regularity, I have to be hypervigilant about our pack dynamics, and it’s startling sometimes what small thing one dog can do to overturn the entire applecart, or just the opposite sometimes. I’ve had a gentle, calm dog come in and suddenly everyone is getting along famously. I’ll keep hoping for Hope, too.
Heidi Meinzer says
I love the fact that you are willing to share your trials and tribulations with such candor. There is so much to be learned beyond information and advice in a vaccuum. Shame on anyone who reads your blog and gets so “attached” that they express how much they want and expect you to keep Hope. I just had a conversation with my dog trainer today about how getting or keeping dogs because it’s what we want is inherently selfish and ultimately not good for you or the dog. There is also a sense that anything and everything is “fixable” or that a trainer should be able to “fix” every “problem.” Sometimes, management is just the thing — such as with my skittish Shepherd mix Sophie and toddlers — I will not force myself and her to confront the issue and try to “fix” it. I will manage it by never letting the situation arise, and never take the chance that an incident might occur. It’s not fair to her, me or children to do otherwise, even if I (and who wouldn’t?) want a dog that’s good with kids. The situation is that I have a dog who is not good with kids, and I need to accept that and do what is right. Sometimes it means giving a dog another home. If it comes down to it, Hope will have no problems finding a loving, wonderful home, I am sure. And kudos to you for considering all of your options and keeping Will first and foremost in your decision.
My trainer had a huge heart to heart with me and my boyfriend about what kind of dog to get when my boyfriend’s Golden Raoul died. Sophie is a handful, and really needed a happy, go lucky, confident dog. My boyfriend wanted either a small dog like a pug or French bulldog, or an athletic dog like an Aussie. But we thought and thought about it, and strongly considered English labs. We visited an incredibly responsible breeder who breeds English labs and who lets Virginia Service Dogs get the pick of her litters. Her dogs are just wonderful and as bomb proof as a dog can be. Maybe a lab is kind of “plain vanilla” and everyone has one. And maybe he’s not a lap dog or an agility dog. But he is the sweetest, most confident and fun little guy in the world, and Sophie absolutely adores him. I’ve been thrilled with the result — even if I don’t have an agility dog like I wanted in skittish Sophie or the new guy Boomer. The main thing I really want is a happy dog. Much like the video you shared about the dog who ended up not being a service dog, but a great surfer. Love the one you’re with! I will keep hoping for Hope, Will and you! Thanks so much for all you do!
Lacey H says
Yes – thank you so much for sharing so much. I’m eagerly looking forward to learning more of your adventures with helping Will.
I foster little adult dogs, and was very concerned that I might never find a suitable home for my last previous one. My dogs and she were almost entirely indifferent to her, and over the long months that she was with me, I came to feel much the same. She wasn’t hard for me to manage – came housetrained, and I gave her no chances for greedy food misbehavior (her biggest flaw; would have been quite unsafe with children just for that) – but I never could really love her.
Very, very luckily she was adopted, into a home that liked her in spite of the first two days of hell, and my current foster (who is timid and extremely easy to love) will probably be here only a few more weeks.
Jennifer says
There is nothing noble about keeping there wrong dog. Much better to suffer a short period of discomfort for the greater good of everyone involved. I assist with ex-racing greyhound placement and sometimes the best suggestion is to admit it is a mismatch. About 9 years ago, I personally adopted the wrong greyhound. I do obedience and agility and ended up adopting a typical mild mannered greyhound. She was an excellent pet, great with kids, and would be a wonderful addition to a typical adopter’s family… but I wasn’t looking for just a pet so I placed her. Some people disapproved, but within a year I adopted Travis. Travis was not suitable for the average family. He was high energy and high prey drive. He wasn’t what I “thought” I wanted, but I felt I was suited to manage his behavior. We worked through his issues and he turned out awesome! He competed in obedience, agility, and dock jumping. He is the only greyhound to earn 2 agility championships. If I had been compelled to keep the wrong greyhound, I would never have adopted Travis. Who knows what would have become of the misfit Travis? We had so much fun together and were perfectly suited. It was meant to be. Travis died two years ago and is missed terribly.
Nanci Byers says
I, too, would really miss hearing about your dogs stories, that mixture of personal and scientific combined really helps me understand more about interacting with dogs. Although it is a difficult choice, rehoming is sometimes what needs to happen for the dog, for the family and for everyone’s sanity.
Please continue to share your stories with us, because it is really important to realize that professional trainers have to deal with reality too, and it is not always a pretty picture. Hard decisions are part of being responsible pet owners.
I meant to post this on your last entry, but I think better late than never.
I just read a fascinating article in the most recent issue of The Bark (June/July/Aug 2010) : “Does Your Dog Need a BFF?” : Researchers confirm that they do. By Barbara Smuts, PhD and Camille Ward, PhD
Making the choice to add another dog to the household for you, and for your other dogs is always a crap shoot. Fostering is one way to have a trial run and see how everyone gets along.
I just had the happy experience of fostering an young Afghan Hound, Pharaoh to add to my 9 month old Irish Wolfhound, Isabella and our 6 year old german shepherd mix.
Pharaoh and Isabella immediately fell in love with each other. I have never seen 2 dogs take to one another as they have. When I was reading Smuts and Ward’s article I recognized Isabella and Pharaoh over and over again.
Although puppies are wonderful, I would also think maybe finding an adult dog for Willie might be a good idea.
I do hope that Hope works out for you, for Willile and for life on the farm.
Cheers,
matthew says
Please don’t stop writing about your self and your dogs. Your sharing of your ups, downs, successes, failures, lessons learned etc help facilitate learning and passing on of knowledge.
To me the “full disclosure” so to speak, adds a whole bunch of credibility to your writings.
Amy says
Reporting on your dogs is what makes your story authentic. Otherwise you’re just another “expert.” I love that I can read your books and feel like I can communicate with my dog in a way that helps us both express our needs and desires AND then read your blog and be reminded that you put your pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us. Thanks for that.
Wild Dingo says
Personally, I like reading about your dogs. It makes me feel so much better about living with my own dogs knowing that even professional animal behaviorists have the same issues. I’m reading this story of Hope fitting in with intense interest. I had rescued my GSD mix first and added a Siberian Husky 3 months after knowing that my GSD loved playing rough, especially with Northern Breeds. My Siberian for the first few months was withdrawn, sullen, sulky and generally unahppy. She liked the GSD fine, but I felt that she missed being with other Huskies and I tended to be drawn to dogs who liked mental stimulation (like herding breeds). She seemed to resent the time I spent training the GSD, and because the GSD was so easy to train (needed very little to motivate him) it was hard for me to reach her on a communication level. I too went through the “is she right for us?” I stuck it out and over time, she adapted and not only did she love training, but she demanded it from me daily as if she became a GSD in a Sibe suit. She taught me that each dog can have slightly different learning methods and definitely different motivations. With my GSD, i had to calm my behavior down to keep his energy calm in training (just getting my attention would draw out every single behavior he knew to perform) but with the Sibe, I learned that I had to act like a clown in the beginning to engage her in the game of training (in the begining, she’d give up really quickly and lay down if she didn’t know what to do to earn a reward). I also learned over time that each dog’s relationship with ME took presedence to their relationship with eachother. Of course if they truly hated eachother that wouldn’t work. But they didn’t have to be best buddies, as long as they got along. My Sibe is not as rough a player ironically as my GSD though Sibe’s are known to be rough players. Ironically too, my Sibe has hip dysplasia that she had at birth. So I’m certain that’s what limits her rough play. Still, she can occasionally play quite hard enough for the GSD and will neck-bite, wrestle, chase and just about everything he enjoys, just not as much, not as often and not as “hard” as he can. Thankfully, he is smart enough to dial it down for her and i’ve never heard her squeak in pain because he is so careful with her. (he can still be a butthead to her and bully her now and then, but that’s “big brothers” for you.)
anyway, moral of the story… sometimes you just can’t choose your “family” even when you can choose your dogs. My sibe very quickly became the apple of my eye and my husband’s eye, even tho she started with a sullen, snobby attitude. She is so loved by all 3 of us and now fits in for who she is. I’m delighted that because she’s raised with a GSD, she’s so well trained for her “breed.” She does all the working behaviors the GSD does, and even some better than him. Her “search” work is much more enthusiastic and targeted than the GSD’s search work and even her basic off-leash obedience could be ring-worthy because she prances happily as she does her behaviors.
Sometimes the adversities or the challenges make the dog (or us) rise to the occasion. But I would completely understand as a reader if you made the decision to not keep Hope. It’s not easy making a decision like that. I do remember Will was instrumental in picking Hope out. I wonder if he thinks he made a mistake or perhaps he just chose the best one of the litter at the time, not necessarily his BFF.
anyway, please keep writing about your dogs. It helps to know trainers/behaviors face the same challenges and the decision process you go through.
ana says
It may be that Hope will end up being the top dog and that Willie will be just fine with that. But right now the potential top dog is a 5 month old puppy and that’s a little hard for an older dog to accept. As Hope goes into his (teen months) he may be even harder to take. But unless you see two really unhappy dogs in about a year, I would let them work it out between themselves. Your only job in this case is to make sure each has quality time with you and doesn’t make the other dog miserable.
Liza Lundell says
Please keep writing about your dogs, and your decision-making. You’ll make the best decision for everyone, including Hope. Please share it with us.
Robin says
I would hate for you to quit writing about your dogs. Has judging others become our new national sport? Sure seems like it sometimes.
Kat says
It always seems weird to me that there are those who think experts can’t be human and that there are experts who feel the need to conform to that expectation. That’s a significant part of what I value so much about your blog, your willingness to be a real human being. Thank you for that and please, don’t stop.
Today at the park I was reminded of just how complex relationships can be between dogs. There is a female BC with whom Ranger has a very interesting relationship. Initially it appeared that she hated him. He’d try to interact with her and she’d snap and growl. Her person and I couldn’t figure out why Ranger, who does have good social skills, would continue to try to interact with her when she kept telling him to go away. We kept trying to intervene and keep Ranger away from her but then we noticed that she’d go out of her way to pass him and that when he was playing herding games with her she’d take wider turns so he could stay right on her tail. She still snaps and growls but combined with her putting herself near him and handicapping herself so he can keep with her we’re less concerned about their interactions. It’s amazing how many permutations of relationship can be and how many different factors are involved.
And finally, if I may be so bold, if you keep thinking you wish Tulip was there are you looking for a Tulip like dog to add?
Pam says
I love that you write so candidly about your own dogs and the trials and tribulations that all of us can relate to. Your blog is the first thing I check every morning after staggering to the coffee pot at 5 am:).
My dogs certainly don’t have the relationship I had hoped for…it’s more like older sister (8 yr old BC) tolerating little brother (20 month old ACD) but mostly wanting little to do with him. Their play styles differ way too much…she tends to get offended by being bulldozed and he’d rather mouth and wrestle than chase. Neither seems overly stressed by being forced to co-habitate and they do have other dog friends so it doesn’t overly concern me that they are not BFF’s.
Kypp, my BC, has been gallivanting across Canada with my parents for the last 3 months and I am very curious to see how my dogs react to each other when they are reunited and whether the relationship will have changed any.
Looking forward to seeing you in Seattle, Trish!!!
Teri says
Please add my voice to those expressing their appreciation for all that you share with us. Your real life situation and stories help us with so many of our own struggles. I have every confidence that if Hope isn’t the right fit you would not rest until the proper fit is found for him to be happy.
When I brought our puppy home our older dog was 10 years old and hated puppies and small dogs. She wouldn’t even look at him for the first week or so and then snarled and pinned him. Since that day they have been family. They never really played together (mostly age difference?) but have a wonderful friendship that is just very relaxed. My mom has our puppies litter mate and the two brothers spend a fair amount of time together and are best buddies but they also share an incredible competitive streak and in many ways bring out the absolute worst traits in each other. They are much easier dogs apart then together but it really is fun to see how much they enjoy each other. The littermate often spends weeks in our home and the family feel has always expanded to include him. The old girl still loves to toddle slowly along after the boys as part of her pack. One thing I have found very interesting as the old dog aged and the puppy matured was to see the puppy move into the protective role of the old girl where once she was the protector.
I am weaping as I write this because tomorrow I will take my old girl (now 14.5) to the vet for her “final” visit and this house will truly miss her confident and fair prescence.
Joanna says
Please do not stop sharing, Trish! I find much value in reading about how you handle the issues that many “normal”, non-experts have to face with much less information and experience. For every person who criticizes a decision you make (one that they don’t have all the facts about, nor do they have to live with the consequences of), I believe that there are at least three who are inspired and educated by your posts!
Michele says
Thank you very much for sharing your own situations and the decision-making process. My current situation is living proof that it does take time for issues to arise. I have a border collie that I adopted from rescue when she was six months old. For the first three months she was in my home, she was unfocused and we had a little bit of a hard time making a connection, but otherwise she was just a sweet young pup. Then odd behaviors started to emerge. Resource guarding, etc. She is four now and does have a very sweet side, but some of her behaviors are weird and many days it feels like I get through by just telling myself to keep putting one foot in front of the other, so to speak. I am happier now that I’ve accepted her for who she is and just manage the situations and do my best to help her make good choices, but I would be lying if I said I was totally happy. Luckily I don’t have any dog to dog problems. They’re not allowed together when alone, but that’s just preventative.
I guess the point of my writing is this: if re-homing her had been an option, I think I would have done it two years ago. She is unadoptable, so if she goes back to rescue, she’ll be euthanized, and I don’t think she’s done anything to deserve to lose her life, so here we are. I’m happy for you that you can take your time and decide when you are completely sure. It’s the kindest thing to do for everyone involved.
trisha says
To Ella with the fighting dogs: Oh oh oh, of course you are qualified to a have a dog! My heart, and I expect the heart of many readers goes out to you. It’s terrifying and emotionally exhausting to have dogs that you love fight with each other. I’ve seen people live with it for years, and I had two females who lived in tension for years myself (Lassie and Misty, and like another who commented, I never realized how bad it was until one died and the entire house breathed a great sigh of relief.)
You know that, without meeting you and your dogs, I can only make general comments, but here are some answers to your questions: Are there ever 2 dogs who just can’t get along? Oh yes, I’m afraid so, ask any behaviorist, and the most common demographic of that is two females. Early on in my career I’d work with clients who had 2 fighting females and I’d send them home with a plan, things would be great for 6-8 months, and then wham, bad bad fight. Bad fight. I learned over the years to be cautious about prognosis, because so much depends on the individual dogs, the context and the environment.
Second, yes yes yes, your dogue’s hormonal state could indeed be playing a role. Intact females are usually most aggressive (if they are going to be) just before and as they are going into a heat cycle. If her hormonal state is out of whack (that’s a scientific term) her hormones could definitely be playing a role. I would keep the girls separate, talk to your vet, see if you can find a good behaviorist, progressive, experienced trainer or veterinary behaviorist in your area.
My heart goes out to you, Ella. I have seen so many clients who have suffered through this and it’s never easy. It’s one of the reasons that the red flags waving at Redstart Farm have me on alert. Just know that this is NOT your fault, and of course you are qualified to have a dog! All best, paws crossed for you. I have to go, but perhaps other readers can share their experiences with intact females going after other females….
trisha says
And one more comment this morning: To all of your who wrote asking me to keep writing about my dogs, thank you for your input (and your kindness). I truly meant it when I said I could do it either way, but like many of you, I like knowledge when it is personalized, and heck, I like stories as much as anyone else. I will keep writing about Hope and Willie (and Sushi and the sheep)… raising Hope is actually a fascinating process that includes a lot of issues that may be of interest. He is indeed brilliant, and I do indeed love to train him, but he is not by any means a one in a million dog, at least not yet. He’s got quite a few issues that I’m working on, and I’ll write more about those and how I’m handling them IF you can ride the river with me, and not be broken-hearted if I eventually decide that he would do better in another home.
Liz F. says
Oh my. So much beauty here.
Can be found in the admirable choices a responsible dog owner considers, the poetic description of life’s complexities, and the colorful picture shared at the end.
Thanks for the smiles!
Anne says
Thank you for your candor. I have often viewed finding the right pet as dating
Heidi Meinzer says
Thank you for considering to continue writing about your dogs!
I wanted to make one clarification to my comment. I had written about how I selfishly wanted to rescue my Shepherd mix Sophie. My choice was selfish — because I am not even a dog trainer, let alone anything close to the animal behaviorist you are. Your choice to keep and work with Will was anything but selfish. Because of who you are, it was a wonderful, selfless, responsible undertaking to make sure Will, with all of his issues, would have a great home. On that note, I don’t understand those folks who say maybe you should keep Hope instead.
I also have to say that, with our new puppy Boomer, it was a combination of a wise decision to get an English lab (instead of another kind of dog that WE wanted), a second wise decision to go to a phenomenal breeder (instead of maybe rescuing again, like WE wanted), and pure luck that — so far — Sophie and Boomer seem to be in love. He’s a month behind Hope, and I sure hope this love affair continues. I also hope all the best for you, Will and Hope. Hang in there! And thank you again!
Pamela says
Thank you for sharing your personal stories. You’re right, it is very helpful to learn that even earning a Ph.D. doesn’t guarantee that you’re going to be able to decide the exact right path with your animals without any contemplation or even changes in direction.
I read the comments here because they are made by people who are passionate and compassionate. Sometimes passion can lead to comments that sound a bit judgmental (especially to the person who’s feeling the judgment).
I learn from your posts. But I gain hope from the comments. Someday we may have only loved dogs who receive training, care and enrichment instead of discipline, correction, and alpha rolls.
AnneJ says
I very much enjoy your blog about your own dogs, bumpy road and all. I haven’t raised a perfect dog yet, although sometimes when they are old I forget about all the things they did when they were young.
Beatrice says
Just wanted to add my voice to the many who have already spoken. I have enjoyed and learned from your blog for some time now and would be so dismayed if you “depersonalized” it. Your candid and open writing about life at Redstart Farm has given me far more insight into human/animal relations than I could otherwise have gotten. You reveal the complexities and realities of living and working with dogs in a way that no one else does. Thank you! Please remember that there are so very many of us who wish you the best outcome possible with Hope and Willie, but who support you as good friends would no matter what the outcome.
Susan says
TRisha, please, please keep writing your blog with all your stories of your dogs. I learn so much from you. I know that you will make the best decision for you and the dogs. I have thought a lot about getting a second dog myself. But Mancha my border collie/lab mix rescue dog, she can be a handful. She has improved in the 5 years that we have had her. But she does not always get along with other dogs. She can be very reactive. Is not always interested in playing with other dogs. Certainly depends on the other dog. Your books have helped me alot to understand dogs better. But for now we will keep to the one dog. So keep up on the great stories and pictures. Love them
Beth says
I was interested in Trisha’s response to Ella, and since I could not find Ella’s post here I went looking and it’s actually in response to the “Part I” blog entry.
Yes indeedy, there are dogs (most often two females) who cannot get along. The very responsible breeder from whom we got our Corgis had mentioned that on occasion, she’s needed to rehome a dog she had intended on keeping because the rest of her pack all decided they hated the dog and would gang up on it. She said her experience is that while the occasional squabble can usually be smoothed over, once the dogs decide they hate each other they are never safe together.
The woman has been breeding, raising, and training dogs for 30 years, so I think she knows a thing or two about dogs.
Growing up I lived with two females dogs who despised each other. We managed the household ok, but the fact was that they could never be left loose in the house together; a fight was virtually guaranteed. Thankfully the aggressor was the small dog, who was half the size of the larger one. The larger one (a Springer Spaniel) had zero interest in doing real damage and so on the odd occasion when they got to each other, we could separate them because the Springer was basically just playing defense and was happy enough to have us break up the fight. And the smaller dog was small enough to grab out of the situation. Were the dogs more evenly matched in size, the situation would have been untenable.
Finally, my father, many years ago, used to field trial pointers. The large kennels typically kept male/female pairs living together and would separate them when the girls came into season if a breeding was not desired. They had so many bad experiences with female/female pairs that they just didn’t even bother to try. These were kennel dogs, not house dogs (the culture with bird dogs at the time) and the pairs needed to get along fine with minimal supervision.
Michy says
A lot of people have said it far more eloquently than I can, but I’m adding my two cents (now worth approximately .005 cents due to inflation) as well. I really hope you’ll read what the naysayers post, and realize that you are doing the right thing, and they just don’t understand. Rehoming a dog is almost always hard to do, but we have to do what is best for the dog as well as ourselves. That goes double for working dogs. If everybody was as responsible as you are being, rescues would be far less needed. As one who has a multiple-animal household (4 dogs and 14 cats!), I must be willing to let an animal go to a better home if one is available. I struggled quite a bit when two of our girls were showing extreme aggression to each other, and wound up having to ‘fence’ off parts of the house to keep them apart. Unfortunately for the older dog, she became quite ill while we were working on conditioning them to tolerate each other, and had to be euthanized. The dog we rescued after that has fit in much better, and now the dogs are all pretty close and get along much better. Had the first dog not gotten ill, we would almost certainly have had to rehome the younger girl.
Annnd, now I’m just babbling, so I’ll end with saying, Please, do keep posting about them, and know that a lot of us think you’re doing a great job with them.
Tina says
the real life stories about your dogs and how you use your training skills & talents are what keep me coming back to your blog. i find so much to apply to my relationship with my dog.
i have always wondered why you didn’t get another Great Pyrenees after Tulip to guard your sheep? Fewer coyotes?
Mary says
I agree 100% with Beth about pet owners often not being aware of the broad range of relationships people have with dogs. Most pet owners don’t think dogs should be outdoor dogs, but many working dogs are kept outside. I couldn’t do that, but I don’t think it’s bad, as long as the dog is well taken care of and getting it’s needs met (mental and physical). All of us would agree that fostering dogs is a noble and generous thing to do, but how many us would emotionally be able to do that? A foster parent knows he’s providing a temporary home and is being responsible in giving up the dog to a better home.
Here’s a question: which owner is being more responsible? 1) the one who has an outdoor working dog who is well taken care of and gets to do the work it was bred to do, or 2) the one who has an indoor pet, large breed arthritic dog that is 20 pounds overweight and having difficulty walking, and who continues overfeeding the dog. As a vet tech, I can tell you we see lots of the 2nd type…and I know the overfeeding is done out of love, but it’s not the best thing for the dog.
em says
Wow! A couple of days away and look what I missed. What a vigorous and thought-provoking discussion. I think that it’s clear from the responses to this post and the last one that LOTS of people not only love getting the ‘personal scoop’ but have many of the same concerns. Sharing your experiences is not just generous and brave, it’s really, really helpful to me (and I suspect, to many, many others). So BRAVO!
In terms of commenting, I suppose I will add my voice to the chorus; Otis is another dog blessed by good social skills-he loves, loves, loves his dog friends and makes new buddies fairly regularly. In summertime, when several of his park friends transition into stay-at-home dogs he mopes for weeks. If I didn’t have the luxury of a big off-leash park (square miles) I’d seriously consider getting a second dog as a companion for him.
Otis is fortunately quite good at sharing his space-friends bring dogs over, we occasionally dog-sit for relatives, etc. The only tension that I’ve ever observed in these interactions was between Otis and my brother’s dog (a very affectionate, slightly insecure female) and that, I think was because Sandy (who did, after all, know me first) acted more like a long-lost child than a guest. He gave her the skunk eye for two days or so, but ultimately bonded very strongly with her, even in the short time that she was here.
So I don’t have much first-hand experience with difficult dog integrations, but I can add my two cents the points that several commenters made about puppy/adult interactions. Otis is very deferential to puppies-so much so that I’ve speculated that he may have spent some of that mysterious first eighteen months of his life living with one or more puppies AND their mom. Otis will give puppies his toys, step back to allow them better access to treats, make a concerted effort not to bump or step on them. He will prevent other dogs from bullying them. But he won’t play with them. Absolutely won’t. They can climb on him, lick his face, jump around his head and shoulders, all fine, but he will neither run nor wrestle with them, even if they are pretty big (a six-month old Leonberger is not a small dog). If they really insist or get nippy, he’ll move somewhat nervously away. Puppies need to get to at least ten months old before he’ll gradually admit them to the ‘big dog’ club. Some never rate. One in particular (a lab/BIG something or another) went from being the king of puppy cooties to his new BFF. It seems to me eminently possible that the tension between Hope and Willie may have something to do with maturity level.
In dozens of puppy interactions there has only been one exception to Otis’ typical behavior, directed at an aussie with SERIOUS, and seriously precocious domineering behavior. This puppy got into fights (not growling or posturing or defensive nipping…fights) with adult dogs (not Otis) over food, toys, holes in the ground, etc. at just four months of age. He was trying, hard-eyed, to herd Otis at three months. Otis relented, on a couple of occasions, running to allow the pup to ‘herd’ him. BUT this dog is also the only one, puppy or adult, that Otis has ever growled at over a toy. I was shocked. He just doesn’t do that. Ever. It’s not that Otis is particularly submissive, he just doesn’t guard resources. I was doubly shocked when the pup (five or six months old at that point) backed down without meeting his gaze. Otis repeated this behavior perhaps twice over a week. I’m not sure exactly how to interpret the interaction, (schooling an out-of-line adolescent?) but I can say this-the resource guarding, dog aggressive, uncontrollable barking, biting monster that I expected this pup to turn into never materialized. By nine or ten months, his focus shifted to retrieval games and the worst of his behavior vanished, along with most if not all of his desire to play with other dogs. I see him regularly, and while he still has some issues with chasing, at a year old he is not particularly domineering with people or dogs. He no longer guards food or toys, but he’s also lost interest in social play.
So I’m not sure how or if this situation reflects on the meaning of ‘red flags’ in puppy behavior. In this case a puppy waving ALL the flags learned (at least partially by virtue of a ‘stern talking to’ by an older, confident dog) that there are limits to acceptable social behavior and proper ways to set those limits. It also seems to me that, like Hope, this pup struggles with an intense work drive. He was occasionally aggressive as a young puppy and precocious about things like lifting his leg, etc., but as a young adult, most of that energy is channelled into fulfilling an insatiable desire to ‘work’. He’s still, from my perspective, no fun for another dog to be around. Tolerable, even unobjectionable, but not actually enjoyable. So I guess the question that so may people have raised crops up again-How good a relationship do they need to have for it to be considered to be ‘working out’? How much time will it take before you are prepared to answer that question? Since many problems don’t fully emerge until maturity (2 years or more in some cases) how do you decide when to make the call?
deborah ryan says
Trisha,
Please, Please!! Keep writing about your dogs and their various adventures!! Can’t begin to tell you how valuable it is to us and how Much can be gained in working with our own dogs!
Years ago I had to make the decision to rehome a pup, boy oh boy, it was HARD, I cried over him for months,but it was the best thing for all concerned. The pup, was half sister to my two girls, he came to me at ten months from an abusive situation, Long story short, I fell for this boy but my girls did not. They tolerated him, but could care less about being friends… Being hunting dogs { English Setters } Little Jon was gifted with more than his share of desire and drive. He was sweet, responsive, loving, But he NEEDED to work,{ my girls could care less } he was happiest in the fields and since I had to work to feed us all I could not always give him what he needed most. After loosing my heart to this boy I did make the decision to rehome him. At two years of age he went to live in California with a wonderfull family, he lived to be almost 15 and hunted every year of his life, a happy boy, and his family adored him.
I know when you make the decision about Hope it will be the best for all involved, and if he does not stay at Redstart Farm with the foundation work he is getting from you the person/family who gets him will be lucky indeed.
Deb Ryan
Amy W. says
For what’s worth, your blog is tremendous; I hope you don’t change the format. But I can appreciate your consideration of not wanting to share personal experiences and not wanting the public to criticize you for doing what is in the best interest of you, Jim, both dogs, and your farm.
After bringing home my 2nd dog, I spent the first year preparing myself that it might just not work out, and half-expecting that I would have to re-home her. (It’s a long story, so I spare you the details). I am happy, no – SOOOOOO RELEIVED AND HAPPYYYYYYYYY – that it didn’t come to that. But if I couldn’t have given her the best living situation possible, I certainly would have found someone could, because I love her and she deserves the best life possible.
Startulip says
I read your prior post with great interest. Although saddened for the red flags, I admit feeling a sense of relief that even the best trainers have these problems. I don’t wish this on you at all – because I did have those red flags and chose to keep the new dog, and the ensuing problems are simply not worth the misery.
I introduced a new puppy to my sweet, incredibly wonderful, well-trained lovable and well-adjusted 9 year old dog. SHe was still so playful and full of life, but things didn’t go as well as I’d have liked, and soon they stopped playing. Initially, they seemed to hit it off, but soon they went their separate ways and didn’t seem to like each other much. They didn’t fight; they just didn’t connect and tolerated each other. Although no one was ever hurt, our household, which used to be so pleasant, peaceful, and balanced became very stressed and edgy.
My husband and I were always on top of management issues. This is not a comfortable way to live. Our sweet 9 year old became anxious. Our new dog’s personality seemed stunted. They were always eying one another, vying for attention, seemingly never relaxed. That made living in the house not very pleasant for any of us because all four of us were constantly on alert.
What I regret most of all were my older dog’s last years. She died just 7 months ago at age 15, and the last 6 years of her life, which should have ended with a gentle old age, were filled with anxiety, a constant vigilance in the home, and certainly little relaxation for her. My attention was often pulled away from her when she needed me more than ever because of my need to attend to our other dog, to always be on top of the management issues that arise when two incompatible dogs live in the same space.
Since the new dog was a GSD, and my older, a Brittany and weakened, clearly the Brittany would lose if we didn’t stay on top of things. She never hurt our a Brittany, but she sure could emotionally traumatize her if my husband and I didn’t ensure she not cross boundaries. My husband and I were always on high alert for potential “drive-bys” and such.
I didn’t realize just how stressful our home had become until after our Brittany had died. After a few months of mourning and not feeling so raw, I realized how peaceful our home felt. I realized just how hard it had been to always have management on the brain. Now I could lie on the floor and invite my dog to play without worrying that both dogs would come and then I might incite jealousy that could escalate into snarling, time-outs, stress. Something as simple as a spontaneous play had been effectively ruled out of our home with both dogs! It was such a loss to lose that type of spontaneous play and training opportunities.
Patricia, people will always judge and find fault. Only you know what’s right for you and yours. I want you to know I love your stories, all of them! My dog died just a month or two before your Lassie. I’d been following her condition for some time, and I hoped for us the good health she’d had, but my dog got sicker and sicker until we had to make the most sickening decision I’ve ever made in my life. Even after, I followed lovely Lassie’s days and found comfort knowing you had such a wonderful being in your life. Oh, how I cried when she died. I remember your post vividly, and tears are in my eyes as I type.
I gain so much from your blog. I write so little, but know there are many more out there like me. I’ve found that there are so many lurkers who care on sites such as yours, and most often those with a need to share their opinions DO NOT represent the majority. I used to always write in response, but as I’ve gotten older and wiser, I no longer need to state my case, share my opinion, or agree or disagree unless it is with a very close friend who asks.
You do what’s right for you. I love, love the personal info you share about your dogs. This, frankly, is where I’ve gained the most, but do what’s right for you – even if that means I lose the personal. Just know that there are so many out there who appreciate what you share, and I’d say only a handful who feel the need to criticize, judge, and “share” their opinions. They’re always going to be out there. No matter what or how you choose to share, they will have something to say.
Jennifer Hamilton says
Have you thought about taking Hope to doggie daycamp 3-5 days a week while he is so young and active? As a doggie daycamp owner as well as someone who just introduced an new obnoxious puppy into a stable, mature two dog household…I find that doggie daycamp is both a great way for a puppy to learn appropriate play from multiple adults as well as get tuckered out enough to play more fairly with our two at home in the evening. This strategy of course has risks given that new adults may over correct an obnoxious puppy, but I find the puppies quickly become more appropriate when confronted with 12-15 new adult playmates every day.
I
Jennifer Hamilton says
Our two mature adult dogs are always happy to see her leave for daycamp in the morning and the puppy is happy to go. When everyone regroups at the end of the day, they are happy to see each other and the puppy plays more appropriately. Just a suggestion, but it has been a great resource for us in helping our new pack find a positive balance.
Kris @ Brushyrun says
I can so empathize with your situation regarding ‘Hope’. Been there with one or two of my own hounds over the years — dogs that were genuinely wonderful and easy to become attached to, but that I knew in my gut would be much better off in a different home.
Experience and knowledge as a dog trainer has very little to do with whether or not a specific home situation is the ideal match for a specific dog. It can require a bit of time to determine if you have a proper ‘fit’, especially when bringing in a puppy. Sometimes we all need to consider what is best for the individual dog, along with everyone else involved, and NOT keep a dog in a less than ideal situation for all the wrong reasons. As ‘Hope’ matures and changes, he may or may not settle in and prove to be a good fit… and that is ok.
Please don’t let anyone’s criticisms alter the way you Blog. Applied dog training and behavior is not a black/white situation. While we can influence and attempt to shape and channel behavior, we can’t magically mold just any dog to become a perfect fit for our own situation and preferences. Individual dogs each have their own inherent temperaments and tendencies, and sometimes it is more kind to find them a new home where they will have the opportunity to fit in comfortably and really shine in their own special way.
mungobrick says
If there’s one person I would trust to make the right decision in this case, Trish, it would be you. You have worked so hard with Will and I can’t imagine anyone expecting you to keep Hope if it means Will is going to be miserable. I don’t know anything about working dogs, but it sounds like there was always the chance Hope wouldn’t work out if his working style didn’t fit with yours in any case.
I had two female dogs at one time and the ONLY time they ever had a fight was when I called in a “professional trainer” for advice. The older was a golden retriever and about as easy going as that breeed can be..the younger was a gs mix rescue who had never once challenged the older dog in any way. But the younger one started having problems with strange dogs at age 2 – mostly resource issues – or what she perceived as such (she’d been starving as a pup). So I called this trainer who came and started giving the younger one treats. The golden retriever (who was completely food oriented) came over and expressed interest and the younger one attacked her. It had never happened before and it never happened again in the remaining six years before the golden died. Unfortunately, that experience with the trainer meant I never cured the younger dog of the problem, as I had absolutely no way to judge trainers from their yellow page ads (as evidence by my first choice!), and was not willing to create any more problems. I guess I was just lucky that the two of them got along so well.
I did get rid of a cat once – the middle of three. She started out fine but by the time she was a year old she was completely horrible all the time to the other two. My mother in law eventually took her and she lived out her life as the queenly only cat of that household, and our other two spent the next fifteen years together very peaceably… Sometimes it’s the best thing to do for all concerned.
Of course we all hope that things will work out between Hope and Will, but you’re the best person to judge whether they do, and to make the right decision for all of you.
Ellen Pepin says
To add to the chorus, I would not like it if you quit talking about your personal experiences and your dogs. That’s what makes your books so easy to read. You always follow the science with a real life example to illustrate your point. I do enjoy reading your blog, which always has good information on how to handle various problems, and the scientific reasons for the behavior.
At first, I was disappointed that you would even consider giving up Hope. After I thought about it, I realized that you would do the best thing for him. I am certain of that.
Donna says
How long will you wait to determine whether you will move Hope on or not? Wouldn’t it be more fair to Hope, especially, and Willie, if you separated them sooner rather than later? That way, Hope’s new owner would have his younger, most formative months to establish the type of relationship he/she wants with Hope. Do you want a herding partner or a partner for Willie? They might not be the same dog. I sense from your posts that you already have your mind made up. If that’s the case, and you want to move Hope on, you shouldn’t wait to get him in the right home for him.
Lydia says
The world is sad enough. I don’t think I’ll read your blog anymore. Trying out dogs like shoes and cars just doesn’t make sense to me. They have feelings too. Just too much like the world, if it doesn’t work out-leave it. That’s too bad. I enjoyed your blog till now.
kate says
I believe that either way…Hope is destined for a wonderful adventure. Especially with such a great start to life with you!
At first when I started fostering dogs, I couldn’t understand why people would give up and just abandon their dogs at a shelter. Then after seeing them thrive in my home and getting a brand new lease on life, I realized how selfless it was. One foster in particular, after picking him up, I took him to this beautiful wide open space in the mountains for a couple hours walk…and I video’d him because he looked as though he had just been released from prison…the way he was sniffing the air, rolling around in the water and then in dirt…when I sent it to the rescue group they said it brought tears to their eyes.
That’s when it really hit home…… being selfless REALLY is the most compassionate thing you can do.
For those dogs who didn’t have as great a start to life as Hope has, I swear I can see in their eyes they know the past is behind them.
I just wish there were more foster homes available, instead of surrendering them to shelters.
Thank you so much for sharing!
cheers,
kate
Shannon B. says
This is obvioulsly a very polarizing topic. As someone who is 100% committed to my dogs, in the past it has been easy for me to become so attached to my furry four leggers that I have forgotten that the dogs are just one part of a greater family which includes my husband, 3 kids and other dogs.
I was forced to make that distinction with one beloved dog, she was perfect for me, but not for the rest of my family. I thought I could ‘manage’ the situation, but ultimately, my sweet Emma bit my then 2 year old daughter, nothing horrible, but a wake up call for sure. Only once that happened was I able to see clearly how uncomfortable Emma was around the unpredictable toddler and how the possibily for escalation was great. With a very heavy heart we re-homed Emma with a single woman, no children, where Emma has lived very happily for the last 8 years. My heart was broken, but I am to this day happy that she is happy and not euthenized for a more aggregious infraction of the human code of conduct.
Not exactly your scenario, but similiar enough. I should have paid more attention to those red flags that you so wisely have identified. I agree that it is too soon to decide for certain one way or another, but never forget to consider the red flags, no matter how cute he becomes, how he touches your heart or how much fun he can be.
And, please, please keep sharing your personal experiences with your dogs. As you said, it is good to see that a real “professional” deals with the same things we laymen do!
Cheers,
Shannon
Beckmann says
I am neither a dog trainer nor an expert. I am just a normal dog owner who has been struggling (but have been having fun too?) to rise an adolescent male dog. Also living in Germany
s says
oh please don’t stop sharing about your own dogs – its so educational and frankly heartwarming to hear your stories, good and bad. An owner rehoming a dog in certain situations is NOT the reason our shelters and rescue orgs are full up and bailing as fast as they can – its a series of things – spaying/neutering, poor breeding policies, public whim that keeps puppy mills going, and I’m sure folks could name many more. Those of us who have added dogs to our homes know that its not always a good match and unfortunately circumstances do change – jobs are lost, homes are lost, someone falls ill, children are born and SOME DOGS cannot handle that. Yes, there are folks who are cavalier and drop off their dogs without working hard, just as their are marriages that end up in divorce without a lot of effort to save them…but we shouldn’t cast a generalization or condemn someone for decisions made if we haven’t walked in their shoes.
So please keep sharing – your experiences and the emotions behind them are what I know I as a reader enjoy about your blog. That someone with TONS of dog experience can still have some of the same frustrations and joys that an average dog owner has regularly. You’ve taught me so much already – to put in the time, to try different approaches, to persevere. Please keep sharing and I hope that any detractors don’t stop you from providing us glimpses into the heart of your home and your farm.
mungobrick says
It occurred to me last night that so many people think of dogs the same way they think of children, and that may be what some of the people who seem to be unable to accept your dilemma are confusing. Sometimes two siblings don’t get along, but of course as a parent you wouldn’t give one away even if it would make things more peaceful! A dog is NOT a child, it is a dog. It is not going to grow up and move away and live an independent life where it can be happy on its own. It’s stuck in the situation it finds itself in, and that might mean a lifetime of misery. Dogs seem quite able to adapt to new owners, despite our wishful thinking that they are so attached to us they could never do so. It takes a caring owner to realize what is best for a dog, and to go through the heartbreak of giving one another chance elsewhere if that is the right thing to do for the household.
I also don’t quite understand why some people feel you shouldn’t give Hope away because that might make him unhappy (which it wouldn’t, because you’d give him to a great home), but keeping him and having Will made unhappy would be okay?? (And would Hope actually be happy in a situation where he and Will don’t get along?) Double standard there, somewhere.
Autumn says
Thanks so much for sharing your story. I agree wholeheartedly that the issues discussed are not black and white. Everyone has different needs and expectations when it comes to their pets and how they get along. It would be wonderful is Will and Hope end up living harmoniously. But if it ends up not working out, I don’t think any harm will be done in finding a home that is a better fit for Hope.
Hearing your story has been so helpful to me. Mine is similar in that I have a young (9 months old) BC pup who is more confident and pushy than my 2yo BC mix, who is a very soft dog. I, too, thought it was important for my older dog to have a buddy as she loves playing with other dogs and seems to enjoy their company. Like Hope, my young dog is super smart and like you, am having soooo much fun working with her.
Most of the time, my two get along just fine. They wrestle, chase, and even drink out of the same water bowl. But a few times/week, something will set the younger dog off (usually resource-guarding related) and she will attack the older dog. No vet visits yet, but I’d hate to see it get worse. I worry because my older dog is a sensitive dog and has trouble sticking up for herself. The good news is that the fights are becoming less frequent with some tough love (using your “Feeling Outnumbered” techniques and impulse-control exercises), but it is hard to wait it out. Also, when my older dog and I come back from an agility trial, I am happy to see that she is eager to play with the younger dog. So I know they still enjoy each other’s company. My main concern is the welfare of my older dog. I know that I can handle this sassy, confident puppy, but my worry is that the older one can’t. I’m not at the point of considering rehoming, but I do worry about it getting to that point.
Good luck with your situation. It is tough waiting things out because change rarely happens over night 🙂
Autumn
Khris Erickson says
Donna said: “Wouldn
Rose T. says
Trisha,
Please keep writing about your dogs and your personal experiences – it’s one of the best things about your blog and your books. It sort of makes it all real. That’s why you’re not just another “expert”…well there are many reasons, you’re not just another expert, but the real-life stories make your writing all the more interesting and relative to our experiences with our dogs.
While I’m sorry to hear that re-homing Hope may be a possibility – I’m sure everything will work out for the best.
I’m quite sure you’ll make the best decision for you and your family.
Rose
Jennifer says
First I wanted to say how great it was to meet the wonderful lady behind the blog at the seminar this week! I learned so much great information and the demos & video clips were invaluable.
I also REALLY appreciate that you are being so open & honest about what it’s like balancing a relationship between two dogs. I’ve wanted to find a playmate for Zanzi (enthusiastically friendly 18 month old Aussie). Her playstyle can be obnoxious for some dogs (which means end of playtime) or she feels a bit overwhelmed (then I take her away/out of the park too). I’d love a second dog for me too, but I need for it to work for both of us. It’s very informative to know what the repercussions can potentially be with introducing a second dog, and the variety of ways to handle it. I’d hate to see the shine go out of my dog’s eyes or of another dog’s because of a bad match.
All that said, I really wish for you that this is a bump in the road and that things smooth themselves out with the boys.
Darin says
My goodness what a fuss this has stirred up!
Trisha, anyone who has ever seen you speak or read your books should understand there is only love and good wishes in your heart for these dogs. Some people do give dogs up because they are lazy, but anyone familiar with you or your work couldn’t believe that of you. Please keep writing about this situation – it is good for all of us to read. And frankly, brings a sense of relief from the feeling of failure for the rest of us when we just can’t make it work.
And for those of you who want to pass judgement, please understand there is no value in that. Dogs get rehomed all the time (that is what rescue is about, right?) and most make the adjustment with little trouble. And it isn’t as if she’s going to put Hope on a plane to Russia with a note stuck to his collar.
For those of you who want to pat yourself on the back for sticking it out, managing the unmanageable, etc. etc., next time maybe you shouldn’t. It is hard on the dogs and hard on the people – life is too short to live with constant drama. Just as we can’t save them all in rescue, we can’t keep them all at home, especially when they want to make chew toys of each other. And even if it isn’t that bad, why make your dog live a life of quiet desperation?
This is one of the hardest situations a dog owner will ever face – let’s treat each other with love while we face it!
D~
Sarah Stremming CPDT-KA says
When I added a puppy to my household almost two years ago I said it to myself and I said it out loud, “If she and Kelso simply do not get along, she will have to live somewhere else.” Luckily, the unusually long time I took to introduce them paid off and Kelso not only puts up with baby Idgie, he actually plays with her and *most of the time* enjoys her company. Kelso came through severe issues with other dogs much like Willie’s, and is very picky about who is dog friends are. I fully understand and whole-heartedly respect your willingness to home a dog for the sake of your other dog’s sanity and happiness. Too often people add a new dog to their home without even once considering whether or not their current dog would appreciate such an addition, let along what they will do if the dogs don’t get along. As a side note, I would appreciate it if you DIDN’T stop writing about your dogs, I really enjoy hearing about how you deal with real life issues.
Sherron says
Oh, how I wish I’d read this post years ago! I made my beloved cocker spaniel live with a dachshund he absolutely hated because I let people guilt me into believing I was an awful human being for wanting to rehome a dachshund I’d rescued and rehabbed. Mind you, the dachshund and I don’t get along at all, either, but I still let myself be guilted and shamed into keeping a dog that neither I nor my dog wanted. Today, I still have the dachshund. My cocker spaniel passed away, but the dachshund is still around tormenting me every single day. It’s not about training. It’s about personalities. I’ve learned the hard way that there are dog personalities that I am not well-suited for, the kind of dogs you love, but would never in a million years take home with you. And I’ve often thought that my dachshund would’ve been much happier living with someone else, too. But now that she’s 12 yrs old and declining in health, it doesn’t feel right to rehome her. Or maybe I am still dealing with all the guilt and shame that was heaped on me years ago. I don’t know…
Melissa says
I think I understand. I take the welfare of my animals very seriously. Perhaps painfully so. But I’m the one that has put them all together in this environment, and their happiness does rest on my shoulders. If I don’t constantly assess their emotional state and try to make them happier, no one will. And as painful as it is sometimes, I can’t be happy if I think my animals are stressed in some way. That’s why I scrutinise them so much.
I remember sitting on the floor feeding my wild hare grapes and crying because I feared the best thing I could do for him was to say goodbye and let him go free. Oh how I desperately didn’t want to do that. But I would have if I thought it would be the best thing for him, ignoring the fact that they are feral over here and I actually think it’s illegal to release one. In the end I decided to give him another couple of weeks to see how quickly he settled down after a minor upheaval and reassess then. He settled quicker than I thought possible and I decided to keep him. I am grateful I made that choice, as I have learnt so much from him and I think when I was considering releasing him I hadn’t realised how much he should have learnt from other hares that he didn’t.
It was ironic when a year later someone looked at him and asked me when I would let him go because they thought it was cruel keeping him in a cage. I said “when he would be happier in the wild”, but if only they knew the agony I had been through trying to decide what was best for him! It would have broken my heart to let him go, but I was ready to do it. What’s a broken heart next to one animal’s welfare? Broken hearts mend. An animal only has one life to live, though.
s says
@ Martha – I have a rescue with SA (we didn’t know at the time altho the state of his teeth should have been a huge red flag) – we live in a home in a small town, the dogs have free reign of the yard and lots of walks and exercise. I work from home and we are home after work outside of kid activities, so our dog has lots of company – we even once he got to a place where we could leave him for 3 hours without damage to the house but an unhealthy focus on our picture window, we fostered and then adopted another dog which did take away my fear he’d go through the window, but did not solve his SA. We continue to work on it. So honestly don’t feel like a different home/lifestyle would cure the SA – I am living proof that it likely would not. And I’d be lying if I don’t consider rehoming my dogs on a monthly basis – they have DRASTICALLY changed our lifestyle in terms of we do not go on vacations or long beach trips or anything anymore unless we split up for the day (someone stays home) or we do doggie daycare and cut our day trip short to pick up on time. SA is hard to live with!
LynnSusan says
>sigh< Such weighty stuff. I appreciate your thoughtfulness and consideration, Trisha, at giving us fair warning if things are once again about to change at Redstart Farm. The internet gives us all sort of an artificial sense of familiarity, maybe even investment,but ultimately we can click away from your life—but you and Jim and Will and Hope have to live it. I am confident the best decision will be made with the same intelligence, grace and heart with which you write.
And may I , for just a minute, give the other side to the re-homing issue? Gracie came to me as a 10 month old who had been stashed in a kennel for 7 of those 10 months. She was pick of her litter, and bought for show and breeding purposes. But one of her ears did not stand up, so the trainer opted not to spend any time or money on her. She was an exuberant,untrained 72 pound (and underweight)puppy with the brain of a five month old. She came with a collar and leash and a full set of baggage, including separation anxiety. We bonded instantly, and beyond all her issues, I saw the purity of this dog's spirit and her huge capacity to love life. To say she is my heart is to understate it. And it never would have happened if her original owner hadn't decided, for whatever reason,that it wasn't a good fit.
LynnSusan
Betsy McCoy says
Trisha, please don’t stop sharing your personal stories. I suspect many of us who read the blog are trainers and it does a world of good to know all of us, including super-you, go through trials and tribulations with our personal pups. My BC/pointer rescue pup, MerciMe Patience, has tested me to the limit with her fearfulness, slamjumps, nips and BARKING. Happily, she is now about 10 months old and coming slowly out of her evil adolesence. Now, there are “flashes of brilliance”, glimpses of the great dog she is slowly becoming. I know her basic traits won’t change, but she is settling down with her good days more frequent than her bad days. Maybe it will be the same for Hope when he comes out of adolescence. If not, what better way to show your love for him than to assure he lives in a more suitable home? Although we hate to admit it, dogs DO get over a move to a new home and will thrive without us in their lives. Good luck, we’ll be supportive of whatever decision you make.
Sharon says
Sometimes, our responses to our dog problems seem to say more about us as humans and as a society than they do about the particular issue at hand. Learning more about dogs and other species, and how they learn and adapt, has made me ponder once again what it really means to be human, and what our place is in the universe (no answers, yet, and that conversation would be way outside the scope of this post!).
On the society level, how did we get to the place where the public consensus is that once you get a pet, you keep it for life or you are a bad person? I’ve known people who handle divorce more easily than they do re-homing a pet who just doesn’t gel with the rest of the house. One vet friend of mine has a dog who makes life very stressful for her house of cats, dogs, children, and her husband, but emotionally she can’t even talk about alternatives. It’s not like she even loves the dog intensely – it’s just that sensation of being a bad pet-owner that has her overwhelmed. I wonder if years of marketing by the animal rescue industry has done some unintended harm in this regard?
Martha says
@ S – Amen to that-thank you so much for sharing your experience. It helps me no end to hear of other owners struggling, day to day, with severe SA. Can we form a support group?? Other owners I meet don’t understand:”oh yeah, my dog barks when I leave… for ten minutes.” My response: “well, ours barks/cries/howls/drools/throws himself against his crate for 6-8 hours.” That shuts the conversation down pretty quickly.
Jasper is improving, but I can’t say with any certainty that we will ever be able to leave him for more than a few hours at a time. In the city we have lots of (expensive) resources that have given us a working solution for now, but it’s certainly not when we envisioned and probably, unfortunately, not sustainable for the long-term.
JJ says
Martha, re: “Can we form a support group?”
I don’t know if you were being facetious or not. But I’ve been helped on other issues by joining a Yahoo group. In the Yahoo groups, people from all over the world can get together to discuss an issue and provide support or information. My favorite Yahoo group is one for building your own agility equipment.
After reading your post, I decided to do a search of the Yahoo groups and sure enough, there is one called K9SA! (Canine Separation Anxiety). The group only has 108 members, but you might bring life the group. If you are interested, you can check it out here:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9sa/
JJ says
Follow up:
I just found another Yahoo group on dog separation anxiety and this one is bigger:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/k9sepanx/
You can search old posts in Yahoo which may also be helpful. This group has been very active in the past.
Kelly Elvin says
Trisha, thank you again for your honesty and openness. As so many others have said, this is what makes your blog special. We can find good, science-based training and behavior information from lots of sources (and you are a big part of that), but you show us how to apply it to real dogs living in a real household of real people. Things don’t always work out exactly the way the book says, and you show us how to take what we know and adapt it to our own dogs and our own situations. That is art.
Your willingness to share stories about your own dogs makes it easier for others to share their stories, and we have learned so much and gained so much support from each other.
From behind my computer screen I have no idea what the right decision is for your family, and how could I? How can anyone presume to know that? What I do know is that you are thoughtful about the relationships between all the members of your family, and you take your responsibilities seriously, and that makes it abundantly clear that you will do your very best to make the right choice for everyone.
Like many others, we have agonized over adding a new dog to our pack, and have faced situations where the new dog was not a great fit – one of our older dogs was terrified by him. We gave ourselves a three month trial period. Because our older dog was submissive by nature and very well-trained, and because we spent a lot of time training the younger dog, used lots of management, and frankly got a bit lucky, everything worked out. If the situation had not significantly improved by the end of that time, we would not have forced our older dog to live in fear and stress, but would have found the younger dog a new home, knowing that we had given him the best possible start in life. Sometimes we are just a way station on a particular dog’s journey through life, and that is OK. Most of our dogs have been second hand dogs, and we are so lucky that their previous owners were responsible enough to help find them a new loving home.
Keep on doing what you do, and we’ll keep on learning right along with you.
trisha says
To Martha: Barely back from Toronto, packing for next trip tomorrow (sigh), but had to say to Martha: Hang in there. I haven’t found your original post, but SA can almost always be cured. I’ve had maybe 2 dogs in 20 years who couldn’t come out of it. You may need to consider adjunctive drug therapy for a limited time, along with Counter Classical Conditioning, but most dogs end up coming out fine IF the problem is really SA. I have had 2 dogs who were flipping out in the house because 1) the Nat’l Guard jets began flying over the house every afternoon and 2) the owner moved to a trailer right beside an electric plant which blasted up to full power every evening after she left for work, and either the noise or stray voltage was driving the dog crazy. So one step is to be sure that you know what is happening when you are gone and that it is really SA. Also, is there a vet behaviorist in your area? Might be helpful to check in with one. Sorry to ask questions you may have answered, late to the party here, and have to go re-pack, but couldn’t not comment. SA can be soooo hard on an owner, my heart goes out to you. But don’t give up… more tomorrow.
Brie says
Trisha,
The right decision will come to you. We have a BC, Penny with a similar history to Willie’s and very similar behaviors, although typically reversed–she prefers smaller, more submissive females. While searching for a companion dog for our Aussie, we had to also consider Penny’s needs and that was frustrating and, at times terribly difficult. We fell in love with two dogs and later had to place them in other homes because they were not the right dogs to share a home with Penny, who is reactive and timid. On our sixth attempt, although only the third dog we brought home, we met Maggie. We traveled seven-hours to meet her because we felt she was worth the trip and I am so happy to report she is.
Although Maggie’s the largest BC we’ve ever seen and we’ve come to suspect she might have some Greyhound blood in her lineage, she is pushy enough to persist in making friends with Penny and submissive enough to apologize when she goes to far. Though we brought her into our lives primarily as a playmate and companion for our Aussie, she has somehow wriggled her way into friendships, very different and unique friendships, with both of our very different dogs.
Sorry to use so many words to send such a brief message, but I just wanted to say, you’ll find the right dog for your family, and if he isn’t Hope, I’m sure you, who always seems to have the best interest of your dogs at heart, will make the right decision for everyone. But maybe, just maybe, Hope will surprise you.
It took Maggie about four-months to settle in, slow-down and adjust to Penny’s moods and peculiar way of doing things, but she did. She now navigates her complicated relationship with Penny very well–just this week they started lightly playing together, which was a huge step forward. We weren’t sure they would ever understand one another, and they probably don’t, but I think they accept one another now.
Rose T. says
@Martha, Daisy and I have been suffering threw her SA since I got her. There is a very good handout on ASPCA.org about dealing with SA that has very clear cut steps on counterconditioning and de-sensitiizing the dog. Of course, Trisha has a book on it as well that you might want to check out. There is also a video called, “Crate Games” by Susan Garret that you might find helpful. It’s all about making “kenneling up” fun.
In the beginning, I felt like I was a prisoner in my own home. I always worried, would she be okay when I left and my life started to revolve around having someone home to take care of her so I could go out to do basic things like food shopping . Many weeks we went without stuff at the house because I couldn’t leave her *sigh*
You’re right about the fact that other people, namely family, just don’t understand what it’s like. I would hear things like, “your life CAN”T revolve around a dog?”, or “just leave her, she’ll be fine” Um no, she won’t be fine. I was also told by people, she doesn’t have SA – she’s just bored…
Thankfully, I’ve got her to the point where she can be left home for about 7 hours in the gated kitchen if she’s been exercised and she had a Kong or other food dispensing toy to keep her busy. But unlike another reader mentioned – getting her to that point did require a chance in lifestyle meaning, I had to work on counterconditioning multiple times a day – I couldn’t give in and just let her follow me everywhere – which required a lot of discipline and I had to make sure that she was getting alone time each day – even for just a bit.
I consider myself very fortunate that she never hurt herself while I wasn’t home and she never really destroyed anything.
Hang in there – SA does get better with a consistent behavior modictation program – get help from a behaviorist or a qualified trainer if you need it because handling this problem as you know, can be very difficult.
Good luck.
Rose
Laura Atwood says
I am one of those people who mistakenly kept two dogs living together even though it created tension in the household and often resulted in my husband and I have to break up fights. In retrospect, this was a mistake. Both of these dogs have since passed away but I always feel badly when I think that I kept them together when, clearly, they would have been happier without having to be constantly stressed by each other. If I ever have this situation again, I hope I will handle it better – more responsibly for the dogs and for my the people in the home.
It’s nice to think that getting a dog means that dog will be with you forever but that isn’t always possible and it isn’t always the right thing to do.
D says
Trisha –
Thanks for bringing this topic up in such a personal way. The timing is perfect, because I’ve been considering adding a new working Border Collie to my pack, but have hesitated because I am worried about upsetting the apple cart. I too own a small farm with plenty of space and sheep, and I can’t even begin to describe the joy I receive from training and competing my dogs; I feel each training session deepens my understanding of my dogs along with my communication with them. I’ve also met some wonderful human friends through training and competition.
I currently have two dogs
Sharon says
Assuming that a dog needs to be re-homed, are there any developmental stages where re-homing should be delayed?
LynnSusan says
Sharon,
I have done rescue for many years, and one of the most amazing things I admire about dogs, is their resiliency. They have the extraordinary ability to bond to humans,even after having been subjected to cruelty or depraved indifference. This is not to say that some of these dogs don’t carry deep scars, but usually they can regain trust. I have not seen a dog in rescue—whether a baby puppy, an adolescent, adult or senior, who, when placed in the proper environment, has failed to thrive.
So, in my untrained opinion I would say : a dog can be re-homed at anytime, if it is done carefully and properly. The key element is to find the right chemistry,for want of a more precise word. And make sure that the new home has the dedication (and fortitude) to weather the rough spots.
LS
s says
@ Martha and others who commented on SA – interesting on the yahoo groups – I will check those out. I know SA is very common but unless your dog really has it, tough for others to understand. When I’ve turned down obligations even family members will say “can’t a neighbor watch them”? and I’ll say um yeah, if that neighbor sits in my house for the 8 hours we will be gone, then yes, but if that neighbor actually wants a LIFE for those 8 hrs, then no”. watching my dogs does not mean coming in to let them out or feed them – they cannot tolerate being alone for more than a couple hours, end of story right now. My dog is on medication and I work with our vet – its been a little over a year on the meds. We manage it but we have a LONG ways to go. My dog is also crate and containment phobic – he will kill himself in a crate, I have no doubt, based on some really bad scenes (even with TONS of crate conditioning). I plan to earnestly pick up the counter conditioning in the fall (with kids, its hard to do the pick the keys up, go out, come back in and at this point, that is the biggest trigger bc I’ve conditioned against most of the others…but you cannot explain to my 3 yr old that we need to go to the door, sit down, go to the door, sit down – talk about confusion!! Anyways, I have hope that someday this will be resolved based on Trisha’s comments, my vets assurance, and books I’ve been referred to. Until then, its been a life lesson for my kids – that their desire to get a dog resulted in this situation and its one we have to work through, even if it means no trips and vacations for a couple years. That as fun of a time we might be having, we can’t stay forever because we have a limit as to how long we can be gone for now. Its a bit nervewracking at times – I approach my driveway with a pit in my stomach some days and I always try to beat my husband home – I react much more calmly to the mayhem. We’ve been super honest with our vet – if this hasn’t improved in a year or so more, we cannot continue this way indefinitely – its just not physically possible.
definitely going to ck out those yahoo groups – misery loves company! 🙂
Martha says
Wow – I was almost moved to tears after reading your responses… Thank you thank you Trisha for your encouraging words. They mean so much and I have been devouring your tremendous body of published work – I’ll Be Home Soon is my bible these days, but I also return to your other books as I try to understand this fluffy ball of complexity and fierce attachment. Our vet has been great – we are using medication to support the training. And thank you @S and @Rose T for your stories. And JJ – I’m not being facetious. I signed up for the yahoo group today!
We have been using an audio tape recorder to document the arc of Jasper’s panics… tonight though we used my iphone to make a video while we stepped out for 3o mins. I can’t tell you how thrilled I am after watching it: no barking, pacing, or destructive behaviour. He fell asleep by the door within ten minutes of our departure and stayed put. This feels like success? We don’t leave him alone at all except for these planned departures, so to know that they are working gives me so much hope. I’d love for him to leave the doorway, but not sure it really matters in the end as long as he’s relaxed enough to sleep, eat, etc. and isn’t barking himself into a full hysteric episode.
We have had him in our lives for eight months now and it feels like it has been both a short time and an eternity. We love him – no question – so to feel that there might be light at the end of the tunnel is so affirming. Thank you again everyone – I really feel so much better knowing you are out there and are committed to finding good homes for your companions, wherever that home might be.
Zoe OB says
Thank you for writing about this, Patricia. We’re struggling right now with a two year old male Jack Russell who is reactive and a four year old female Border Collie mix who is quite dominant. Reading about your experience is very helpful as we are going through a lot of emotions. Did we get the right dog(s)? Are we suitable as dog owners? Who did we miss the signs? Plus all of the guilt that comes with trying to figure out what we did wrong. Personally, I know I could never reconcile placing either one in another home as the feelings that I abandoned them are too great. Advice such as yours, from the breeder (who is also an excellent certified trainer) and our local trainer have not gone unheeded. It’s our sincere hope that we can help them both become a little more balanced. As the saying goes, until you’ve walked in another’s shoes, you really have no idea what they’re going through. Looking forward to how you’re handling your situation.
Anna says
I am glad you share about your dogs and the issues you face because it makes your advice easier to take knowing that you really do know from experience what we go through with our dogs. Every dog is an individual and some individuals you mesh with and others you don’t… no one is necessarily better it is just the way it is. I hope you find the happy solution to your situations.
I have two PWCs a 35 pound, 20 month old male and a 22 pound, 12 month old female and there have been many times in the past 10 months that I have wondered if this was going to work but in recent weeks I have found the answer is yes. The little girl has just enough Xena Warrior Princess in her to keep the big boy in line… 2 weeks ago when they were racing around the back yard she for the first time flipped him… he got up and looked at me like “what the H was that?” and ever since that they take turns flipping each other.
The biggest problem I face now is training two young ones that appear to have different learning styles and keeping straight who is who. I am going to attempt Rally and Obedience with them so training is done often but can be hard for me mentally. I don’t think I will ever again have two puppies at one time but I will always want two dogs.
Kerry L. says
I will start my comment by saying I have not read ANY previously written comments regarding this post. I have always been appreciative of your willingness to write about your real-life experiences with your dogs. I’ve been comforted and relieved that the concerns and problems I have with my dogs are shared by someone with your level of expertise and understanding. I have found it a relief to know that you would be willing to rehome a dog that’s not suitable for your household or lifestyle rather than ‘tough it out’ while you and others are miserable. As for my current dog situation, Mavis, the resident Manchester Terrier went immediately into play mode when Walter, the Corgi, came to meet us. They have been good friends and compatible housemates since the first meeting. Walter also has a BFF at the dog park, a rat terrier mix who will chase AND wrestle, they watch for one another and play with each other to the exclusion of other dogs when they are at the park at the same time. I never thought I’d be arranging playdates for my dog. A comment you made about taking time to see if a herding dog is a good ‘fit’ rang a bell for me too. It took quite a few months for Walter’s and my style to mesh. He has a much stronger personality than my other dogs and I wrestled with finding him another home until we made the necessary adjustments. It’s been heartening to me to learn of your struggles and I know you will make the responsible decision. Now that I’ve added my thoughts, I will go back and read the other comments. Thank you for your honesty.
Cassie says
I so understand your desire to have dogs that truely love being together. When my old pyr mix Grace died last year the energy of our home just compeltely changed. We went from 3 dogs to 2, but more importantly, it seemed as if we went from having a family of buddies to just two separate dogs that happened to share the same space. Some things were better- Grace was the resource guarder with other dogs and she made any situation with food or treats loaded between all of the dogs, but without her it seemed like there was no soul. The dogs never ran and played in the yard, they never cuddled with each other.
Last month I participated in an awesome program called Mutt Makeover with the local humane society- Local trainers volunteered to care for a shelter dog for 8 weeks, train the dog, and then compete in an obedience and “obstacle” course. The dogs were supposed to be adopted out afterwards.
My Mutt Makeover dog, Chelsea (www.facebook.com/chelseamakeover), was adopted by me. The day i brought her home it was like a light turned on in the house. I brought in 12 lbs of crazy little dog and she made instant besties with my pit bull. Her crazy not-afraid-of-you attitude even convinced my anxiety issue (with other dogs) riddled old great dane to play. Suddenly I have my pack back. (And we placed 5th at Mutt Makeover!)
If it’s not clear from this little story- I’m with you all the way. You are doing awesome things by training Hope. But Willie was there first and it has to be good for him too or you’re doing a disservice to every one. Good Luck to all of you!
(And I’m also with every one that said to find a nice adult lady dog to bring it all together! It’s easy enough to foster for a rescue group or a shelter. If it works out, great- you have your dog. If not, you have given them time to adjust to their new life to come. )
Jen says
As for figuring things out, my one dog seemed to be born knowing that if she’s on a leash she needs to stay on the same side of poles, trees etc as me. My other dog (the “oh so smart” herding dog) can’t figure that out to save his life.
I appreciate how hard your decision is regarding Hope. When I added my 3rd dog to our pack 2 years ago I knew there was a good possibility my Aussie would not accept her and I was prepared to rehome her from the start. I had looked for the perfect next dog for while and she met all my critera so I decided it was worth the risk and heartbreak if I had to rehome her. We had a few rough spots (and a few puncture wounds) for the first 6-8 months but in the end they have become the best of friends and I am oh so grateful, for me and for them. The new addition taught my Aussie to play like a normal dog and they both enjoy it so much.
I know you’ll do what’s best for the dogs, whatever you decide, and that’s what’s important. And thank you for sharing all that you do.
Claire says
I think you are very brave to share all of this, and I think what you are struggling with is doing the right thing for each of your dogs.. despite what you may want to do. I think you are looking at this in a very unselfish way, and the way that will create the happiest of lives for the dogs you love. I think that is so admirable.
Kristy says
Please don’t stop writing about your dogs and your experiences! Your honesty about the process of training and what you are experiencing right now are invaluable.
Gina says
As a person who has lived with dogs that didn’t always get along I can sympathize. Our dogs that had problems were both adult rescues and were fine for the first 1 1/2 years together. I guess dogs aren’t static, so puppy or adult you just never know for sure.
Keep writing about your personal experiences. I think it helps many of us to realize that even an expert has issues with their own pack and helps us to reconcile those feelings of guilt over what we think we did to create a problem. Sometimes the problem is just that two dogs that don’t get along. Why do we expect dogs to be better than humans?
Diana says
Thank you.
I’ve come to the realization that one of my dogs is not a good fit for me and my lifestyle. He and I are well bonded and he’s well bonded to my other dog and my husband and I know that he is a very, very challenging dog (sad to say but he probably should not have been put up for adoption – he has a LOT of fear aggression even after we’ve worked on this for years) so he will stay with us. I can’t imagine him handling a transition to a new home very well and I wouldn’t put him with anyone other than an experienced dog person for fear that he’d turn into a fear biter.
Next dog – something bomb proof, please!