Here’s a video of Willie playing with a Lily, a 4 month old female Dogo Argentino. He has just met her, and after a brief greeting by the farm house, we walked up the hill to the Orchard Pasture.
I love watching videos of dogs playing; it seems that you can see so much if you watch them repeatedly. Here are the two main events I find most notable about this episode of play (along with the fact that Willie is playing so well with her! Yeah Mr. Will, what a journey we’ve been on together!)
One, notice how Lily’s play is so often on a vertical plane. Even as a young pup, she spends a lot of energy moving upward, and trying to get on top of Will. You’ll see that especially at seconds 17, 23 and 34. There are other examples, but those are the first three that I noticed.
Secondly, notice how Willie always backs away when she gets a leg on top of him, and dashes off, trying to elicit chase/race games with her. Watch carefully at second 59, how he approaches, gets her attention and then runs away. Willie loves to play race/chase games, and it looks to me like he is trying to initiate them with her. It appears to me that Willie is specifically trying to teach her to chase. Of course, she’s small and the snow is deep for her, so there is no way she could keep up with Will, nor is that a play style that she may ever enjoy.
In addition, I suspect that his reaction to her attempts to mount is more than just trying to elicit a chase game. Willie is very uncomfortable when other dogs try to chin over, stand over or mount him. As a matter of fact, when we stopped playing up the hill and went into the house, Lily began not only to rough house with Will, but began to try even harder to get her front legs and head on top of him. Will couldn’t dash away anymore in the close quarters of the house, and his ears flattened, his eyes rounded, his commissure retracted, and he began an offensive pucker at the distal end of his lips. I immediately stepped between the two of them and asked Will if he wanted to crate up. He sped away from Lily, ran to the study and lept into his crate. Poor Will, such angst. He gets so nervous about other dogs when he can’t maintain control. He is a classic “Alpha Wanna-Bee.” He wants to be in control of everything, but is an insecure nervous wreck about doing so with an individual bigger and braver than he is.
Yesterday he played chase/race with his Doberman girlfriend Mishka, and was totally relaxed even in the house until she lept onto the couch and loomed over him. He tensed up and then ran to the study and hid behind the door. He only came out when Jim came out too, and hid behind Jim’s legs. Then we walked behind a big rocking chair, and stayed behind it until I called him to come to me. Oh Willie. He is trying to hard now to stay out of trouble, but it is so hard for him. I am so proud of him, though. (For those of you who haven’t followed the story, Willie was pathologically afraid of other dogs as a puppy, and went through a very aggressive period until we could get it turned around. He will never be a ‘dog park’ dog, but he’s done so well given who he is and what he started with.
Here’s the video: I’d love to hear what you see in it. I’ve only watched it a few times, and focused on the things I mentioned, who knows what else is going on!
Karissa says
I think Will is doing a fabulous job of teaching a wild youngster how to play properly. There are not many dogs who enjoy that dominant “I’m always on top” play style and he’s doing a very good & patient job of showing her a more acceptable form of play. Will has great social skills in that he doesn’t seem to be too overbearing for the puppy and tries to get her to chase vs. wanting to chase her. My dogs always seem to prefer to be the chaser vs. the chasee.
Here’s a clip of my dogs at play (well, the “play” part starts more around 2:35): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XGooWc5vkg
Secret (6-month old Border Collie puppy) has learned that the dominant mounting style of play will not get her anywhere with Luke (6 year old Lab/Shepherd). I’ve had her for two months and this is the beginning of Luke starting to play with Secret — He likes chase games and she is starting to trust him enough to participate. Luke’s barking (which I took out of the video) intimidates her still, which is why you see her go into a submissive down posture.
What I found most interesting was what I perceive to be “jealous” behavior from my on-leash dog, Kaiser. He & Secret play fantastic together, but on this day I think he was not happy to see the other dogs having fun without him and he felt the need to dominate them when they got into his range. FWIW, he is intact and has a few macho “issues.”
I always find it very interesting how Secret will revert to a submissive role in play — Because she is turning out to be a very dominant/alpha female personality in their day-to-day lifestyle. Personally, I think she’s playing games with the boys to win them over so that she can sneak in and take over the household without them realizing it. lol It seems to be working!
Kat says
I love watching dogs play. I can see a significant difference in how Alpha-wanna-be Willy and my Alpha Ranger deal with attempts to mount them. Willy always runs thus creating more space between them and trying to shift the game to one of chase where he’ll have a clear advantage. Ranger moves so that he can’t be mounted and then owns the space. He’s always so calm and clear about it. I think of it as explaining to a toddler that “we don’t play like that.” He’s happy to race and chase, to wrestle and spar and with particular friends mounting can be part of the game with the dogs taking turns although I have a feeling that if I actually counted the number of mounts Ranger would have more turns on top.
A prime example of Ranger’s style would be his interaction with 10 month old unneutered American Bulldog TF. TF was determined to mount Ranger and whatever Ranger was doing, soliciting petting, getting a drink of water, sniffing the ground, TF was there trying to mount him. Ranger would side step and then just look at TF until TF stepped back or looked away then would offer a game, chase or wrestle. TF would sometimes play for a minute then be back to trying to mount Ranger. After a large number (I want to say 15 or 20) of efforts to which Ranger said “no” Ranger finally turned and showed TF his teeth, weight very slightly shifted forward but his body relaxed and tail in a neutral position. TF backed way off and Ranger returned to soliciting petting and I watched TF head back over and lift a paw preparing to try mounting again and then think better of it. The next time they were at the park together they played very nicely with lots of games of chase and wrestle. It was nice to see as my herding dog loves chase and TF who does not have the stamina to play chase and race for hours prefers wrestling. They’d found a balance that allowed them both to play the game they liked best.
Holly says
I have a young male dog like this. He did not start out this way, but he has been grabbed and “held” by an older, stronger male dog twice for excessive animation and aggression. That did it, now he’s afraid because he can’t understand what .not. to do.
Years ago, I acquired a young GSD bitch who turned out to be the most fabulous puppy raiser. I had a litter of Corgis that she just loved. Adored those puppies. Until they were about 9 weeks old, they were given permission to do whatever they wanted to her. Then she started their education and it was .fascinating. to watch. She would pick a soft toy and carefully place it between her front feet within eye sight of the puppies. As they raced toward her she would lay very still but emit a low growl that increased in volume the closer they got. Several of them would slow down but the bolder one(s) kept coming and when they got to her she would roar at them, but never touch them. If any did not skitter away, she would bop them on top of the head with her canines and never hurt them. I only ever had one puppy that needed more than one lesson. Immediately after that the puppies would generally stand away, looking at her and she would pick up the toy, shake it at a puppy and invite him/her to play. The puppies would generally either wait till she came closer or take a few hesitant steps and she would meet one of them to play. Then she gently played tug. The dogs this GSD raised are very dog savvy dogs that seldom get themselves in trouble and understand how to avoid conflict. Unfortunately for Conner, Karin was too old to do the job with him and I had no other dog that could stand in for her so he did not learn the self control that the other litter did.
Zelda P. says
Tricia,
Willie is one heckuva lucky dog! He loves you, and I’m sure he knows how much you love him. If he had thumbs, I bet he would have made you the best valentine card ever!
Kudos to you.
-ZP
Anna says
I love watching dogs play and interact witheach other as it helps me learn so much about the relationship of my two. Did you ever wonder how corgis deal with 24 inches of snow, they sure don’t need you time to shovel for them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4zKgODgI_8
hope you enjoy watching and let me know what you think of my puppies at play.
Ignacio says
Small editorial correction: it’s “Dogo Argentino”. 🙂
I didn’t know there were any of those in the US! Back home (Argentina) they sometimes suffer from the same generalization that people do here with the American Pitbull Terrier (dangerous-killer-dog-don’t-get-any-close).
Very cool video!
Alexandra says
So cute! I love watching dogs play. Will looks to me like he doesn’t want to be jumped on but is not wanting to correct the puppy, either, but would simply prefer to avoid her rough-housing. He does seem like he is trying to convince her to chase him instead. Copper will dodge out of the way like that when dogs he doesn’t know that well try to wrestle with him – he prefers chase and tug games. Izzy on the other hand will stand her ground and give a correction (sometimes a serious overcorrection to adult dogs she doesn’t know well, which is why she’ll never be going to any dog parks… she’s come a long way though).
Here is a quick clip of Cops and Iz playing their favorite stand-off and chase game in the snow. Iz is the black dog and Copper is the yellow one.
Kevin Appel says
It appears and sounds to me that Willie is the one acting and playing the right way in the dog world and his chosen playmates are being rude to him.Maybe he’s reading their body language just fine and just doesn’t like what they are saying. Keep up the good play Willie!
Debra says
I love watching the dogs play in the snow. It must add a fatigue factor to the play (especially the corgis – they look like dolphins swimming through the water). It was 80 degrees here in San Diego today and we had to get the dogs out early to play before it got too hot. My dogs love to play chase and take turns being the chaser and chasee, although my younger aussie can out last the older one and is often trying to coax him back into the game. Willie looks like he’s really enjoying himself out there, but I wonder how he’d react if she could have kept up with him. There’s nothing better than when the dogs throw themselves to the ground after playing hard, in full pant looking very pleased with life. (I wish I was as happy after such vigorous exercise!).
Lacey H says
I’m reminded of one of my favorite memories of my last big dog. He was very playful, but handicapped by hip dysplasia. One day I took him to a neighbor’s home, where an older Bull Mastiff was recuperating. He and she took strict turns in “tagging” the top of the other (mostly with a chin on the shoulder) and then running a few steps away. They seemed to be having a great time.
Melanie Sweeney says
My dear dog Jock (no longer with us) was neither an Alpha-Wanna-Be nor an overly submissive dog, he was dignified (without being aloof or sombre), wise, friendly, sensitive and joyful. He never initiated aggression but would always assert himself if another dog was ‘rude’ enough to use stand over or leg-over tactics. He’d do just enough to communicate “Mind your manners and stop throwing your weight around!” and left it at that.
My first thought when you said Willie is uncomfortable with chin-over, stand-over or mounting was “Which dogs ARE comfortable with it?”. I’d have thought most dogs wouldn’t appreciate dominance manoeuvring, but I’ve also gone on to think that the more ambitious or insecure a dog is the more reactive they’re likely to be to such tactics, and that perhaps a contentedly submissive dog would not take it to heart – water off a duck’s back, so to speak… (‘leg off a dog’s back’ perhaps?)
With my fella Jock I interpreted him as wanting the same as what he offered – friendliness and play without anyone having too much to prove. I suspect too that as a self-contained dog Jock recognised easily those dogs who were gonna have too much wild energy and not enough self-handicapping for his liking and he steered clear of or put a stop to those kinds of encounters.
It’s an enjoyable challenge attempting to interpret all of these things…
Regards,
Melanie
Wild Dingo says
My male GSD mix plays like Will. He LOVE chase and will do anything to initiate it. When I first rescued him, his fosters wrote in his paperwork that he should NOT go to the dog park as it was likely he was taken too early from his liter as he did not have dog social skills. i didn’t read this until months after i HAD taken him to the dog park. and i have to agree, his method of introducing play back then was too forward, too fast and too rough. Wish i had actually READ what they sent me then! I’ve done lots of obedience with him since then and have taught him how to approach other dogs calmly and gently both on and off leash and today he will always approach gently and play bow. No more body slamming introductions! Now he does a lot of what Will does unless he is wrestling. Both my dogs know that I don’t allow mounting with other dogs. with eachother, i tend to watch it, but they seem to work it out in play and typically it’s my female sibe that tries to mount him rather than him mounting her! it seems he knows by now he’s not allowed to play that way. I just find it poor manners and try to call him off or redirect him if he is even thinking about it. but at home with his sibe pack mate, though not much mounting goes on, i’ll occassionally witness it in play from the sibe. and he’ll fix it by backing out of it. though i do not go to dog parks much, i do enjoy how he is able to approach dogs at the park with a simple bow.
Regarding the dobbie on the furniture, i wonder if Will was reading the dobbie’s behavior as a form of pack rank statement? From what I understand, the highest position always goes to the alpha, and if the dobbie had done this to him in his home, I could understand how that would make him behave as he did. Whenever we have dog guests visitng, i do not allow them to jump on my furniture, a visiting dog that right, simply because it is my pack’s home. We had very small rat terrier visit a few months ago, and he jumped up on the furniture as if it was his. I made him get off, even though my dogs were so much bigger and no matter how small and unthreatening the dog was to them, I felt as their leader their standing should be rightfully respected. I find whenever I do things like this for my dogs, they become more confident, more respectful, more people and dog friendly even and closer to me.
Sandra Sullivan says
Here is a video of my dog, Fling, playing for the first time with a recent foster, Cricket. Cricket was spayed on the day I got her so there wasn’t much chance for interaction with my dogs. I was very concerned about letting them loose together as interactions in the house had not gone well. There was tooth displaying on both sides and Fling, the white headed dog, was acting very afraid of the eleven month old BC mix. But when they had the ability to move away, they both relaxed. When you watch the video, you might want to turn the volume off as Cricket does a reactive display at something she saw or heard at the end.
s says
I smiled when I noticed something that maybe wasn’t so precarious based on the sizes of Will and his pal, but with my two very large labs, its a potential knee/hip breaker – why when dogs are playing in an open space, do they insist on fly by’s that often turn into run into a human at breakneck speed? Is there a way to break them of this dangerous habit? Seriously, I worry my dogs will take out my knee. They have top ended one person so now I avoid any open area play if anyone else is around, otherwise I highly suggest people stand near trees or other immobile objects to deter the dogs from using them as human bumper cars. Fortunately the little pup slowed down as she ran under her owner’s legs, but if she’d been bigger and had more speed, that person would have been toppled!
Liz F. says
Good boy Will! Fun to watch the different play styles- forgive the human analogy but it reminds me of a conversation where one person desperately wants to change the subject, politely of course, but the other is pretty much stuck on the topic (as in Lily just wants to go up and Will keeps trying to redirect her). After the pause around 1:50 they have an interaction where it looks like Will actually meets her vertical movement and tries to get her to chase that way. Kind of hard to see, but it looks like his front paws leave the ground as he turns to run away from her. Willie’s compromise? Or modeling appropriate vertical behavior? Or is he realizing that all the play bows and chase games aren’t working to keep her down, and trying a new preventative?
Amy W. says
The paw over/mounting behavior comes when Will stops and Lily can ‘catch’ him. I wonder if Lily would try this behavior if she keep up with Will while running?
I have noticed when my GSDs play: if my speedy female starts to really run circles around my bad-knees male, when he catches her he will try to mount her. She takes off before he can actually do it, but this is the only time I see him attempt a mounting behavior.
Julie says
My first thought on watching this video is that there might be something wrong with the puppy’s hips. I’ve never known a puppy (who was obviously as happy and secure as this one) to turn down a game of chase. And although the snow is deep, it’s somewhat trampled down and appears soft enough to cushion any face plants that might occur.
JJ says
You sure do have a lot to be proud of. If you looked at that video without knowing anything about Will’s past, I would think you would never guess it.
What struck me most about video is that Will sure seems to be having a lot of fun. He just looks to me like he is truly enjoying himself. If nothing else, that seems to show how very far he has come.
Another thing that struck me about the video is the number of pauses. All the information on dog play I’ve seen (including your wonderful your book and video) talks about the importance of pauses/time outs while playing. I think there were a lot of healthy pauses in their play.
Here’s what I think is interesting: Look at around 1 minute and 17 seconds or so. Will gets almost completely under Lily. But he doesn’t seem to be upset about it from what I can tell. The first time I watched the video, I thought that Will was smelling Lily’s private parts from that interesting position. When I re-watched it, I don’t think that is what was going on.
Given how flexible Will is and shows time and again how he is able to get away from Lily and keep Lily from going over him, it seems to me that Will had to allow Lily to get over him like that. I wonder, what was he thinking? What is going on at that spot?
JJ says
Two more thoughts:
Going back and looking at it a third time, I think Willy might have just been doing a play bow and Lily took advantage of it. I think neither of them really enjoyed it and so they both then just broke apart. No big deal. That’s my best guess.
Also, what I noticed the third time watching is that there were several times where Willy quickly went forward and then stopped. It reminded me of the information about a good way for a human to get a dog to play. If memory serves, the advice was to make a short, fast forward motion toward the dog. I’ve tried that with my dog and it works great. But I don’t remember seeing dogs do that to other dogs before. Not the way I saw Willy do it in the video. Maybe I was just really looking for it. But it was neat to see.
JJ says
OOOPs. I just realized I called Will, Willy. Sorry! (I must have mixed up Will and Lily in my head.)
Fol says
@S I don’t know if it would work, but maybe if you had a Chuck-It or a stick or something you could use to kind of reinforce a bubble around you? If they aren’t too fixated on each other, if you swing it out in front of you, they might remember to keep their distance?
Do be careful with the running-into problem, I know more than one person who have had their knees broken by exactly that — two dogs running with each other. One guy had both knees broken at once, from a dog who tried to turn at the last second and hit him sideways.
Maria says
I think that Willie and Lily illustrate the generally preferred play styles of different breeds beautifully. The chest bumping, wrestling, intensity of the bully breeds in one and the running, chasing, rapid turning of the herder in the other. Breeding for certain behaviors/functions seems to affect dogs in a variety of ways.
My own bullies love to wrestle. Ms. Serious Business is very clear about owning her space and communicating who is and isn’t welcome to take mounting, bumping and tackling liberties with her. She ignores the dogs who are “unworthy.” The other is a silly sort and as long as everyone maintains loose, friendly body language will welcome them to play.
Both are very confused by dogs with different play styles. They don’t understand the point of chase-me games and get downright offended when a certain breeds invite them to play by getting in their face and barking (if I antagonize enough you’ll chase me, right?!).
KateH says
It’s interesting that you say Willie will never be a ‘dog park dog’ but it seems that a lot of that is that you are more aware and solicitous of his feelings than many owners. I stopped taking any of mine (who varied in responses, but in general weren’t happy with the tumult) because there were too many that insisted on the “I’m just gonna lay a paw over you/jump on top of you” behavior and none of my dogs liked it. I would say that it’s the dogs who won’t stop doing that (like the Dogo here) who are the dogs who shouldn’t be going to dog parks. It would be nice if there were a way to only let ‘chasers’ in and keep ‘mounters’ out. Dog parks would be a lot more fun – and safer.
Pat says
Great play!! I love watching dogs interact!
My lab x (now gone) was not prone to humping, but would start up after visiting neighbor Weimer. He tried it with long haired GSD in our street/play/dog-share group. Funniest thing… back yard is on a hill and we watched the GSD just roll out from under him and walk away. Boy, was my boy confused when he came down on air! Didn’t try again, though!
Another play pic and video between two Tervs…my Alex and friend’s Sadie. They had never had opportunity to play before and now they have seven acres! They did very little get-to-know-you and decided that RUNNING was their way to say hello! They ran almost non-stop for 30 minutes!
http://alex-tervuren.blogspot.com see October 19, 2009
Carrie says
I have a question about the video. Between the 49-51 second marks Will does a recall. When he does the recall his tail drops dramatically, his movements almost seem closer to the ground and he sort of dips his head to avoid being pet. What is everyone’s read on this? Do your dogs do this? I have 3 BC’s and I foster for our local rescue and there is only one other dog I have seen move like this… my “behvaiorally challenged” girl.
I have always been curious as to why/what she is thinking when she moves this way. I am not sure if it is due to her herding instincts. IE… she is so focused on what she wants to do that she doesn’t want to give me her full attention. She is a soft dog on sheep and will shut down with too firm a correction. It always has felt like a disconnect when she does that, and maybe it is just her communication problems with people. Could she be going through the motions and not connecting, or is there something else (uneven emotional state) behind that body language? I know Will has had his own issues. What does everyone think?
Alexandra says
@s – Its been my experience that standing with your knees bent rather than locked is good for safety. I also stand near a stationary object if the dogs start getting really nuts. From a training standpoint, I have had succes with two methods, and if my guys do clip me now it is a freak accident.
First method, I actually think I read about in one of Trisha’s books, is the human gets bumped and goes crazy. Stomp around and yell, vent your frustation to the air (don’t actually yell or look AT the dog). This worked great on my lab mix. I think she thought, woah I don’t want to make that happen again! Cured her of crashes in one try. Her crashes were more accidental and being careless.
Second method, which worked on my lab who just gets very clingy and stressed if I show my anger or frustration, was to use a body block on the offending dog. After Copper would body slam me (intentionally… he head-butted me in the back of the head once… he was such a teenage brat!) I would walk into him (slowly, shuffling my feet) and back him up about 25 feet or until he stopped trying to jump on me. If that didn’t work for you or your dog looks stressed out by the body block, then I would suggest instant end to playtime – take them right inside and give them a time out to learn crashing into people = fun stops.
Sabine says
I think Will is doing a great job in teaching the young wild thing to play properly. 🙂 In my view he takes over the guiding role and also dictates the pace of the game.
I have a question for you all. The other day I was dog sitting a friend’s male, intact dachshund. (Having three dachsies to herd was quite a challenge for my shepherd. 🙂 )
Here is the video of the guest dachshund (the bigger, greyish one) playing with my puppymill rescue, Bicalina. He is the ONLY dog she ever played with. She is not interested in playing with any other dog besides this one. She does share the dog bed with my other two dogs, but will not play with them EVER.
We know that she grew up in a crate, that she was raped on a breed stand and that she had numerous injuries, before she was dumped at a kill shelter through the drop slot.
Please watch the video and tell me, what you see:
This is after three years of rehabilitation and the most outgoing you will ever see her. She had no social skills what so ever, when I first got her. She was never socialized and pretty much lived secluded in a cage. I’m pretty proud of her that she has come such a long way, but I really do wonder, what this guest dachsie had that others don’t. Maybe you see some cues. Thanks.
Brenda says
@Sabine We run into this at a dog playgroup alot. Sounds trite, but it just seems to be that some dogs are more attractive than others. Could be smell. All I can say is it must be love! 🙂
I do notice that she does a head-over to him. He doesn’t mind. And a paw to the chest. My Shar Pei does the pawing if she is really interested in the dog. And she, too, doesn’t play hardly at all. The guest Dachsy does go very gently with her in the beginning, and doesn’t attempt to mount her. Lots of sniffies. At least that is what I noticed (With my limited knowledge)
Kerry L. says
Walter and I spend a lot of time at our local dog park. We spend our time in the side for small dogs but Walter, a corgi, is really not interested in the ‘small’ dogs. Except for his best friend, a rat terrier/italian greyhound mix that he met on our first visit to the park, he’s not interested in the small breeds because they want to play chase games and Walter would rather wrestle. He is, however, very interested in the large-breed puppies that come to the small-dog side while they’re still very young. He wrestles with them, invites them to chase him and lets them take him down while teaching them dog park etiquette. Alas, he loses his friends when they graduate to the big-dog side of the park, where Walter has gotten in trouble for trying to herd the large dogs.
Josh says
Great video.
I wonder how much the snow is affecting Lily – she just seems very uncomfortable moving forward. Even when she does run – it’s still a bounding type (lots of vertical movement).
Trish, I would like your take on one thing I noticed Lily did twice (at :45 and right at the end at 2:06). She shakes (like a water shake). This is often described as a appeasement or displacement behavior but that doesn’t seem to fit within this context. At our daycare we also see this type of shake a lot. I think it is often a more deep breath/reset play. Happens as two dogs are playing, take a step back, shake and resume playing. The shake does not end the play but rather the play stops, then the shake. The “deep breath pause” seems to be a good description. Often when the play resumes it’s at a less intense level. Thoughts?
R.D.L. says
We started doing play groups at the shelter I volunteer at. This was after reading all the literature and discussing all the videos we could find on reading body language, behavior, play, etc. We see behavior like Will and Lilly a lot. We don’t think of it as right and wrong because it seems just a part of the dog’s style of playing. Some dogs are runners and play chase games. Those are the ones I like to watch the most. Some dogs are boxers and most interaction is on the vertical plane. Those always seem the ones most likely to hit an arousal threshold and go over the top into aggression if they don’t take pauses and are not managed. Dogs from different play styles don’t seem to enjoy their interactions as much and the play will kind of just die out and the dog begin sniffing here and there. Sometimes a dog changes its play style to play with another. It looked like Will, towards the end of the clip, might be trying to do what his friend wanted but the close-up contact made him too nervous. For the most part I think the herding dogs have more of a running and chasing style. The most noted boxers at my shelter are the dogs with the least appropriate interactions. One doesn’t do the typical curving around greeting but stares and comes head-on. His interactions aren’t generally aggressive but he doesn’t seem to have been properly socialized. We see that staring and straight-on behavior more in the bully breeds.
We stand close to a fence and next to some outdoor chairs while we supervise the dogs so we don’t get run down. I’ve had knee injuries from them running into me.
kate says
It’s so interesting how patient Will is and how creative he is in trying to lightheartedly mix things up a bit. I enjoyed your Dog Play dvd! I just loved all the info. I held my breath to see if my guys were in the ‘take note” category but relieved to know they have some really great play skills. I was thankful of all the videos in there as well to recognize when my adolescent is being “reminded” in an appropriate way that he’s got to tone things down a bit. I also love the leap frog! My Aussie does that to my beagles!
So much is communicated when they play which helps me identify which sounds and body language is playful and what to take note of as being a trigger to something going sideways. Even in day to day interactions with other dogs, it’s really important to note when my guys are having fun or when they need me to intervene. There’s most often a learning curve with the fosters that I bring in.
Watching my guys play is a mix between Comedy night, ballroom dancing or WWF…it’s a little different each day…always puts a smile on my face.
Thank you for sharing!
KB says
I wonder if it’s common that less confident dogs prefer to play chase games over other types of play. I have a shy dog but, if she can convince another dog to chase her, she’ll play chase endlessly.
However, she’ll never play the role of chaser, only ‘chasee’.
A person like you who sees a huge number of dogs would have a better idea than I about whether this is a general trend – i.e., that shy dogs like to be chased in play instead of wrestling or other forms of play.
Trisha says
So many great comments and videos, barely know where to start! First of all, I absolutely agree that much of what is going on in the play session with Lily and Will is a difference in play styles. Ah, but here’s the question (which I’m going to ask in the next post): How much of ‘play style’ is related to a dog’s interest in social status? Lily’s play is without question more typical of a bully breed, and is also typical of a dog using play to determine social status. Hmmmm.
To Josh: I agree completely that shaking, as seen in the video is often correlated with a release of tension or a “deep breath” as you call it. In Lily’s, it could be related to a dislike of a coat however… But I have never thought of shaking as an appeasement gesture. It could be received by another dog as evidence that a dog is not ‘on offense’ is not about to attack, but that doesn’t mean it’s an appeasement gesture.
To Sabine: Wow, fascinating play session. The male seems to be presenting as if a bitch in heat, and the female seems to be obsessed with his inguinal area. Oh my, we just need to have them read the books about normal play behavior. But how sweet to see the girl playing after such a difficult beginning.
Re Knees: Oh yes yes, I know of several badly injured people who have been taken down by their dogs. I tend to be hyper vigilant about it, keeping my eyes on the dogs almost all the time (especially Will and his Dobbie friend who run so hard and fast they are like trains) and my knees bent.
Lily’s hind legs: The snow is deeper and thicker than it looks, I suspect that is why she is struggling through it. And she is only 4 months old, pretty young.
To Melanie: I agree completely with your point that the dogs least tolerant of chin overs are either “ambitious” (love that use of the word here!) or insecure. Sigh, Will is both, that’s why I call him an “Alpha Wannabee”.
To Karissa and Secret (thanks for the video): I’ve found that many status seeking females often give exaggerated versions of submissive postures. I think this is a great topic for a post; some of the most status seeking females I’ve ever seen, who were the quickest to take over when they had a chance, did the extreme appeasement signals to other dogs before they made their move.
And, to Corgis in Snow: Oh oh thanks so much for the laugh! I am SICK SICK SICK (sorry) of snow, of no color and everything being white white white with occ’l blacks and browns. Bring on the flowers!
Jude says
The other comment I would like to add is that herding dogs in general, are just so sensitive to space- and when a herding dog feels cornered and cannot back away… ( as with any dog really) they are more likely to defend. I just see so this behavior as so moment to moment, so fluid in terms of the circumstances; that again, I question the value of looking at behavior in terms of status, or status seeking. I agree that the behavior at “that particular moment” may make the dog look and act “dominant”, but that same dog who behaved “alpha”, in another situation, say desire for social contact with a human, may totally “submit” to that submissive dog, because they- at that moment, do not have the motivation, drive, desire to compete for the social contact. I know that this is still an on-going debate. I have an interesting observation and example to illustrate my point. My dog is now on Phenobarbital for epilepsy which has increased his food drive substantially. On hikes now he is more motivated to look around for horse manure, coyote scat ( lovely, I know) and try to eat it. If I am out on a hike with another dog, I have to watch my dog much more closely . If that other dog races into his space to see what he is doing, my dog is much more likely to defend, lip pucker, snap, get aroused- and I have to intervene. He has always had the tendency to resource guard, but now the intensity has increased- as his food drive has increased. Does that make him more alpha or more driven to protect a resource? In the end, what matters is that I prevent the situation from escalating and ultimately, try to keep my dog from practicing this kind of behavior that benefits him momentarily, but makes walks with other dogs a little more complicated. Ahhh… such an interesting topic that will long be debated. I guess my ultimate question is how do we call a dog alpha or not, when they can alter that behavior in so many different circumstances- is it a fixed trait, or a behavior that serves them in individual situations? No doubt, certain dogs will offer the dominant behavior over and over again, making them appear quite alpha. Just more questions … and thanks for the opportunity to discuss them in this great setting.
Shoshannah says
I love watching dogs play! I learn so much.
My dog, Goodman, is always amazing to watch. He prefers rough and tumble play over chasing (well, he isn’t the fastest dog around).
However, when he sees the arousal level go up with at the dog park, he will go and split those dogs up until they calm down a little.
Some owners at the dog park call him “Sherif Goodman” 🙂
He is extremely patient with puppies. There is an amazing video I shot once where you can see Goodman (he is the big black dog) attempting to play with a friend, while a min-pin pup I was fostering at the time tries
to get his attention, until she finally nips him at his testicles.
Speaking of puppy license!
As for mounting- Goodman is an intact male. I have him for a year and a half now, and he attempted to mount another dog only once or twice (he will do “chin over” a lot though).
On the other hand, he won’t let other dogs mount him or his friends. He isn’t mean about it- usually one look from him is enough to stop the attempts.
He is more tolerant of chin overs.
As for submissive posters- I only saw Goodman do that twice, both time he did it when he was attacked by another dog (different dog each time) and had no where to go- he very much tries to avoid fights. Yay for Goodman!
Here is an observation I have and I wonder if anyone else has seen similar things with their dog: Goodman won’t play with most dogs (pretty typical for mature adults). However, if I play with him for a few minutes, after our play session he is more likely than not to initiate play with another dog, even if that dog isn’t one of his usual play buddies.
It’s almost as if playing with me “puts him in the mood”.
Shoshannah says
BTW, the min-pin puppy did learn to self handicap. You can see that in a video of her playing with a kitten:
Pike says
What a saintly Mr. Goodman and adorable Min Pin!!
What puts my dogs in the mood for play are – even very brief – sessions of formal obedience. The final OK release and they start dashing madly as if they have been imprisoned in utterly boring classes for a week. Works every time.
Meganwf says
The instructor of my current class is a major opponent of dog parks and dog day cares saying it just stresses dogs out and teaches them bad manners. Most of the other instructors at this dog training club agree. As a result I haven’t taken my just turned one-yr-old English Shepherd to one. He has three playmates that will only occasionally come to our two acres to play (we also have a senior greyhound that is not a playmate!) but how does a novice keep their young dog properly socialized?
Shoshannah says
Jude- interesting point about the Pheno.
Goodman is also on Pheno, and when researching this drug I learned that it (and other barbiturates) can inhibit bite inhibition (i.e., a dog under the influence of a barbiturate is likely to bite harder than he would otherwise).
As for “food drive”- I have seen a similar thing with Goodman. Before the Pheno he did enjoy food, but didn’t tend to overeat or to try and steal food.
Now if I don’t keep an eye on he is likely to do both.
Jude says
Shoshannah- thanks for the info on Pheno and the great video with the cat
Amy says
Wow, what a good boy he is! He plays great with her.
What I notice about this video is how QUIET both dogs are. All I can hear is panting and doggy “laughing”. When my two dogs play, there is constant growls, yips and barks. They are extremely loud.
chihuahua training information says
I’ve discovered that puppies provide far more joy directly into our lifestyles than how our lives would be without them. Pets are a advantage to individuals.
mary says
I just saw this video – wonderful play session. We have a nearly 3 year old female Field Bred English Springer Spaniel with a very soft personality. She’s much more into sniffing than into playing but has recently inititated several play sessions with our neighbors 10 month old male Black Lab/Cattle Dog mix (he’s going to be nutered in the next couple of weeks). He’s a big boy – tops her by almost 6″ in height. The play starts off in a pretty standard fashion – face to face followed by running in circles but during the play he invaribly flips her over. After a few flips she ends up with her tail between her legs and heads for me. She sits for a while and then reinitiates play only to get flipped again. He’s not an aggressive dog and backs off readily when I caution him. He does occasionally try to put his paw or his head on her back – she wiggles away obviously uncomfortable with this. Is there some way I can help shape the play behavior? Should I even try.
Barbara Finch says
My dog, Echo (a 20 kg French scent hound mix) is about 11 years old. He enjoys playing with other dogs, especially chasing, though he’s slowing down a bit now. It worries me that he does tend to growl when playing, which seems to be mainly to warn other dogs not to mount or put their paws on him. He will occasionally snap if another dog persists in behaviour he doesn’t like. At that stage, I recall him at least till he calms down a bit and it has never resulted in another dog being hurt or in a fight. Perhaps I am being too cautious, but I don’t want to risk it escalating.
On one occasion Echo was chasing a much smaller dog. Though Echo was only playing, the small dog was frightened and, running away, he fell down a steep bank into a fast-flowing river. His owner and I searched for about 15 minutes and were sure he’d drowned, till we found he’d come ashore in a neighbouring house’s garden, close to where he’d fallen in, and was, thankfully, unhurt. Since then, I’m much more aware of possible risks and that neither dog should be frightened.
Trisha says
OMG Barbara, what a story about the dog who didn’t drowned! And I don’t think you’re too cautious at all; I think how you are handling Echo’s play is perfect. Hear hear!
Jillian Moir says
I’m so excited to have found this thread via some lucky googling. My bitzer pair, pip (mostly hound) and stewie (mostly bc/kelpie?) Are almost exactly the same age (4) and have been housemates sine 6 months. They are very attatched to each other but very different and each have some anxiety issues, which feed off each other. I feel their very differnt play styles have contributed to this. pip likes the chase, shoulder charge, scruff grab, and also a bit of bullying (not stopping immediately when she sees he is uncomfortable). stewie is a gentler chap preferring minimal contact and lots of chasing. I feel that too much of pip’s roughness abd bullying has contributed to stewie being quite reactive to other dogs – he sounds very like your bc in the video, but hasn’t got to the point where he can comfortably play with others. We are slowly working through this with carefully curated walks with him and selected calm dogs, but he will bever be a dog park dog as you say. Pip has been doing well going to doggue daycare once a week where she can roughhouse with other dogs who like her rougher style. When they play well it is a joy, but pip often trashes it at the end by running into stewie unless i intervene.