Thanks for the discussion about the use of Body Blocks for teaching Stay, and to re-iterate a comment I made, they work equally well with dogs of all breeds and sizes (but you have to be a bit quicker with some breeds and with small dogs). If your dog is getting around you to the left or right, then you might be too close. It’s herding dogs that taught me that you have more control at a bit of a distance than if you are right up close. I got away with being quite close in the video in the last post, because the dogs were relatively easy to block, but if you are having trouble, try backing up a bit. It’s also a great way to learn to read dogs (what body part moves first when a dog starts to get up?) and to perfect your timing.
I mentioned in last week’s post that the video showed me working with dogs who had already been taught the first stages of Stay. Someone asked if I’d go over those, so here is me working with a Husky puppy, Anastasia, who has been taught to sit, but not to stay. The steps are simple:
– Be the best game in town with great treats and a lack of distractions that might overwhelm the dog.
– Ask for a sit, give clear visual and verbal signals to the dog to stay (note the drop in my voice) and then release before the dog has a chance to get up. Sometimes I’ll give a dog a treat as it is staying in place the first time I ask, even it is only for half a second, but often that distracts puppies, so with this pup, this first time, I released right away.
– The next times I asked Anatasia to stay I gave her a treat as she was sitting, and made the release boring. The key to a good stay, in my opinion, is to make staying fun, and getting up boring.
See either Family Friendly Dog Training or The Puppy Primer for a lot more on this topic, including the importance of working through what I call the 3 D’s: Duration, Distraction & Distance (from you.) Only work on one at a time, and do all you can to set up wins for your dog.
Here’s the video:
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: The trial was great fun. Good dogs, good people, wonderful hosts and a nippy wind that kept us all on our toes. As predicted, Willie and I suffered a bit from trial-itis, and our runs were much sloppier than when we practiced on the same course all by ourselves a few days before. I’d say we did well, but not great. We did get the highest scores of the runs in the Ranch class, which included a 150 yard outrun, a drive and short cross drive and a pen. (I ran non-compete though, because in a moment of foolish optimism, I ran in Open 15 + years ago with Luke).
The Good: Willie got 30/30 on his outrun and lift for both runs, with a break-your-heart perfect outrun, way back around the sheep, stopping perfectly on balance, and lifting them slowly and carefully toward me. Several times during the runs I was able to whistle quietly and get instant responses. He was brilliant at the pen, doing everything I asked, instantly. We almost penned the first group (thought we had, and so did the crowd, until a little red lamb fooled us all and lept out, practically on top of me), and didn’t have a chance with the second, but Willie never put a paw wrong. (Out of 30 runs, there was only one pen for the entire day!)
The Bad: The Fetch on the first run, when the sheep are to be brought to you through two free standing gates, was not so gorgeous. On the first run Willie didn’t listen well, and the sheep drifted far to our right. This is a common problem with novice dogs: they are absolutely fixated on bringing the sheep to you, and check out mentally until they’ve had more training and experience. He did much much better on the second run, and brought the sheep directly to me, listening when I flanked him, and we made the fetch panels. We messed up too on the cross drive of the second run: Willie panicked and ran around to twelve o’clock rather than stopping at nine, clearly afraid he’d lose the sheep (who wanted to bolt toward the barn, which was a twelve o’clock). But I knew he did it because he was over his comfort zone, and I know what we need to work on next. For a first trial, he really didn’t mess up much at all. Okay, I’m a tad proud of him. He tried his hardest, and I give him lots of credit.
The Ugly: Happy to report I can’t think of anything in this category, except perhaps the one second in which Willie wasn’t listening and I yelled “Lie Down” three times in a row, until I realized that I could have set off fire bombs and Willie would have kept bringing me the sheep. I’m happy to say that I came to my senses early on, and most of our runs were relatively quiet and controlled. Not perfect mind you, but no chasing of sheep, no rodeos, and many moments of the sheep walking quietly around the course, with Willie listening and pacing well. [I’m laughing as I read this: working a dog on flighty sheep at a trial does not feel, internally, “quite and controlled.” It feels like playing chess with fighter planes. Everything goes so fast you can barely think. The sheep are like deer and every move you and your dog makes is exaggerated ten times from normal. Me and my friends came off the course with our hearts going a mile a minute.]
Here’s Willie at his best, bringing the sheep to me on the fetch. Notice how quiet and slow the sheep are — just the pace you want to get the kind of control you need at a trial. Good boy Willie boy.
julie says
The trial surely sounded great!
Kat says
Beautiful picture of Will and the sheep.
Lacey H says
Yay Willie! Yay Trish!
Melissa says
Yay! Thank you, thank you! I’m the one (or one of the ones!) who asked for a video of the beginning stages of the stay with body block. Thank you! I shall go practise!
Melissa says
And, I shall go practice how to spell practice!
Pamela says
Thank you for posting the video. This is so helpful. I realize now that I’ve been rewarding Honey more when I release her than when she stays. Fortunately she’s smarter than her trainer so she seems to be learning it anyway!
Congratulations on the trials. It sounds like you and Willie were a good team!
Dena (Izzee's Mom) says
I am constantly reminded that it is the BASICS that we need to focus on in training.
Roberta Beach says
You and Anastasia will certainly help me and Justus. Congrats on your very good day. Willie looks awesome.
Tania says
Tricia,
Here’s another idea for stays . . . I think what you’re doing is great in the beginning for teaching the dog to remain in place. You’re basically adding value to a position by treating in that position, thus increasing the likelihood that the dog will want to stay in that position, in addition to using pressure to help the dog stay there. However, an idea that I was recently introduced to makes a lot of sense to me and has really helped solidify my dogs’ stays. I don’t think a dog TRULY understands a stay until they understand a release. The dog knows they’re being rewarded for sitting in one place; they understand that stay means “sit there” but I don’t think they understand that stay really means “sit there UNTIL I tell you that you can get up.” I’ve found that people start having problems with the stay when the rewards start getting spaced out, because the dog doesn’t understand the end point of the behavior.
What I’ve started doing, which has really solidified my dogs’ stays is to actually TEACH a release right from the start. (I also don’t use the command “stay.” My dogs are to always remain in place until released. But it would work either way.) I shape a stay with the clicker, gradually adding length and distance, treating throughout the stay, but then when I release the dog, I encourage the dog to get up and when they do c/t. I start doing this right from the beginning, releasing early and often before I’ve added much duration at all. And when the dog understands the release, they understand that they get rewarded for staying in position UNTIL they hear the release cue. Suddenly they understand the POINT of a stay and I’m able to increase duration and distance much faster after that.
Just some food for thought!
Darin says
Just makes my heart swell to read about the progress you’ve made with Willie… And because I’ve heard you speak, I can hear the stories in your voice, which makes it even more touching!
Alexandra W says
To Tania: I take it you’re going from the philosophy that commands like sit/ lie down/ stand ought to have “auto-stays” built in? Or else what do you mean by you don’t use the command “stay”?
Beth says
I hate to be the one to add a “but” to the comments, but I have to say that the puppy has a very long NATURAL stay.
My Corgis don’t naturally stay. I think it’s because their legs are so short, but they don’t naturally hold a sit for any length of time at all, and when relaxed and on their own they hardly every sit for the length of time that puppy sat for. And moving towards them causes their butts to pop up.
If I had to reward the stay (rather than the release) I would frustrate my dogs who would not have understood what I meant, since the second I went to lean over to offer the reward they would have popped up and broken the stay.
I do work towards treating in place, but only after they have gotten the concept of “stay” and I use that treating in place almost as a form of distraction training.
I guess every dog is different, but mine would not have stayed so early in their training the way Anastasia did when you leaned towards her; they would have moved. And mine also would not offer up a stay for as long as she sat staring at you, waiting for you to do something, at the beginning of the video.
For me, rewarding after the release of “ok” is what taught the concept, and then when I moved towards longer stays was when I started rewarding in place.
Rose T. says
Trish, congrats on your herding trial – looks like you’re both an awesome team!
On a side note, I know you’ve trialed in herding – any thoughts on working through agility – I’m wondering if I could apply some space management into our training?
Lynn says
Way to go, Trisha and Will! The trial sounds like a LOT of fun. Finishing first in Ranch is a HUGE accomplishment. Was this Will’s first trial? and your first in 15 years? If so, wa-HOO!!!
But I don’t understand why you seem to be feeling enough apologetic about running Ranch to be running noncompete. On the East coast, at least, I’m pretty sure there are a lot of Open handlers who will run dogs in Ranch on their way up the ranks to Open. Or are the rules different in the midwest? or is it just that I am still an almost-total newbie when it comes to the trialing world? Out here, I think, there might be eybrows lifted if you were running Novice/Novice (after having previously run Open), but surely no one would blink at your running Ranch?
Finally – were these hair sheep? I was spectating at an Open trial recently, and it seemed to me that the hair sheep I saw there were harder to pen than the wool sheep at the National Finals (even though quite a few dogs I saw were also running in the Nationals)! So, kudos to you and Will for almost getting the pen! And for sure, most of the sheep I saw were NOT moving at anything like the sedate pace your photo shows…
trisha says
Lynn: Re herding trial classes — I could run in what we call Pro-Novice, but here “Ranch” is considered a class down from Pro-Novice, that’s why I ran non-compete.
To Beth: Oh, I hear you loud and clear! I was thinking the same thing when I watched the video. All dogs do NOT stay so quietly during early training! That’s one of the reasons I did R+ her at first for the first stay. But I have found that you can move to feeding while staying much quicker than you might think, IF you use good body language to help the dog out.
Lynn says
Aha, that’s clearly different from here, then. I gather that “Ranch” has a lot more regional variability than “Pro/Novice” or “Open”. I’ve pasted below from the NEBCA (Northeast Border Collie Association) website. According to their rules, you would have been perfectly within your rights to have run Willie in either Pro Novice or Ranch (or, for that matter, in Open, though I don’t think there are many dogs that start there!).
I hope you get other opportunities to run Willie this year before it gets too cold!
Pro Novice
The Pro Novice Class is designed to give experienced handlers a level at which to start competing with an inexperienced dog. It is also an intermediate level of competition for the inexperienced handler between Novice Novice and Ranch classes. This class is open to any handler with a dog that has never competed in a class higher than Pro Novice with its current handler or Ranch with any other handler.
The Pro Novice Class shall consist of an outrun not to exceed 200 yards (20 points), a lift (10 points), fetch (20 points) and drive through at least one set of panels not more than 100 yards from the post (20 points) and a pen (10 points).
Once a dog has earned 30 points** in Pro Novice the dog shall be required to move up to the Ranch level of competition.
Ranch
The Ranch Class is designed to prepare dogs and handlers for Open competition. This class is open to any handler with a dog that has never placed in a class higher than Ranch with its current handler or Open with any other handler. If an open handler with an open dog he has never run in open and has taken back to the Ranch level are clearly too competitive for the Ranch level, they may be asked by the Novice Trials Committee to move up to Open. A handler and dog may run in Open and Ranch simultaneously until the dog is no longer eligible for Ranch
The Ranch Class consists of a full Open course with no shed. A dog is eligible to run in Ranch either until the dog has earned 30 points** and after earning 30 points** won one Ranch Class with at least 6 dogs competing, or * until the dog has placed in an Open trial as defined by the Open guidelines.
Virginia says
Like Tania, I have also quit using the word “stay”. I am in NO way a professional trainer, but it seems to me that the word may be just too vague a concept for the dog. After losing the “start line stay” battle to my first two agility dogs, for the last two I’ve taught that “Sit”, “Down”, or “Stand” means to do just that until I either 1) release them, or 2) ask for another action. To me those are concrete actions (for lack of a better word) that my dogs quickly and easily understand. When you think about it, when you correct the dog for moving, (and by correct, I mean giving an NRM, my word is Ooops! and simply moving the dog back into a sit) you are actually correcting for breaking the sit, not for moving. I do treat in position, and when I release I don’t treat right away, I praise them for holding the sit, but no treats or tugs until we’ve moved some distance away. I also don’t use a clicker for those particular skills, although I do use it for most everything else.
I see even more confusion in dogs who are taught both “Stay” and “Wait”. Especially in agility when the dog may be excited, distracted, or in a noisy environment where he may not have been paying very close attention. Those dogs stand up and you can almost see them thinking, “Uh oh, did she say Stay?, or Wait? and maybe I better catch up because I don’t know what’s going on”. And I have to say (knocking on wood), both the 10 yr old ACDX and the 4 year old, but still green, Aussie have rock solid start line “stays”. I think the ACD broke only 1 or 2 in her 8 years of competing. The Aussie has just started, so we’ll see………Oh, and the home-schooled ACDX earned her ASCA CD in 3 straight runs. Good girl!
I’d appreciate Trisha’s thoughts on this. To me, sit, down, or stay are “action” words. You are asking the dog to DO SOMETHING, a task to perform, if you will. Stay means to DO NOTHING. Now, I might be pretty good at doing nothing, but my dogs, not so much……….
Good boy Will! For his first herding trial sounds like both of you did great!
em says
How interesting to hear how different people teach stay. Teaching Otis has been a bit unusual because in an effort to keep his nose out of our dinners, a long, uncued stay was one of the very first things that he learned. We taught him to lie on target areas, a rug in the kitchen, a dog bed in the dining area, well away from the counters and table. We periodically rewarded him as he remained in position, but when he popped up, we corrected with an “ah-ah”, and led him back into position. Initially we praised and rewarded whenever he went to his place, but he became very clever about popping up as a way to solicit treats for returning to his position, so we had to transition to only treating when he held his position, gradually decreasing the frequency until he would relax and wait for the entire meal.
Eventually, we taught Otis both ‘stay’ and ‘wait’. Wait we use all the time in the context of outdoor off-leash walking. It means that I want him to stop moving forward and hold in place, regardless of my position or motion, until I release him. He picked this up very easily and we use it most often to keep him from running forward to greet other dogs, but also to control his position while moving through sketchy situations.
‘Stay’ we use to mean ‘stay still until I come back to you’ and we use it most often indoors, holding him away from the front door while guests arrive, etc.
I don’t know for sure what he actually thinks he’s DOING during either of these, but if I had to make a guess, I get the sense that, to him, ‘wait’ means “hold up and coordinate your motion with me” while ‘stay’ means “don’t approach” (hard to know for sure…I probably wouldn’t correct him for wandering off since I only use the stay for door manners, but since there is virtually zero chance of him wandering off when thrilling visitors are coming in the door, “don’t approach” and “stay still” end up LOOKING like the same thing. Hmm. I’ll have to do some tests to see…
Craig says
I tend to use the ‘Stay’ command more as a reminder. For example, if I’ve put a dog into a sit or down I assume they’ll hold it until released, but I add the stay whenever I move in or out of the 5 foot radius around them, and again if I’m going to move out of view or break eye contact. It does seem to help the dog, and probably does just as much to make me feel better when we’re doing something challenging.
Trisha: I’m curious about the timing of your reward in this case. The way I was taught is that once the dog has learned the basic sit/stay, to reward only after they are released. But I see you are specifically rewarding during the sit and I’m wondering if you’ve tried both methods and how they compare. I can see the logic behind both methods, but have only tried one way.
Mary Beth says
Trisha, its so nice to “hear” the glow in your voice when you’re telling your story about your wonderful trial. That picture of Willie and the sheep ought to be in a huge frame on your wall! Its gorgeous!
So how nervous were you?
I found that my good practices on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday made up for the bad day on Tuesday, so I was pretty calm until the last ten minutes before I went in the ring this weekend. The feeling when I walked in the ring was AWFUL! I made a joke about it with the judge who laughed with me. It was nice to see that my dog didn’t seem to react to my stress. Unfortunately, he created his own!
He was darn near perfect for the first half of the exercises, and tried his heart out at the end. In the middle, he totally stressed out and started to check out and wander off during the off leash heel. I used my one extra command that’s allowed and got him back to work. So, he qualified and earned the first leg towards an obedience title, with poor scores, but a great performance. Sadly, on the second day, he started out well, then totally shut down. I expected a stress shut down at some point, so I wrestled with him and played and cooed to him and got his ears to come up and he play bowed back at me. That was the best part! I know it’ll just take some patience. He’s worked his way through stress before. Its just so sad to see…….but exhilarating to watch them work through it!
I swear, someday I’ll learn to get over ring nerves!