A few days ago I wrote a post on how to handle signs of impending trouble if you see it in someone else’s dog (Please Believe Me, Trouble Brewing!) I asked for comments from other pro’s on how they handle this situation, and from owners on how they would like it handled. The comments sent in response have been so helpful and interesting I thought this topic deserved another post.
Here is an admittedly brief summary of how readers responded (see the original post for their complete comments and suggestions):
PLEASE TELL US! Several people wrote in with sad stories of clear problems that trainers or vets never mentioned when the dog was younger. Many people wished that someone had said something to them sooner. The trick is how and when you say it (read on!)
KINDNESS Oh please please please remember how fragile and vulnerable we are about our dogs. Expressing empathy and concern goes a long way toward having any comment you might make about someone’s dog be heard.
OFFER SOLUTIONS I cringed reading comments about trainers who said things like “You need to get your dog under control!” and kept walking. Isn’t that, uh, what we trainers are for? Don’t people come to us to learn how to do that? The comments made it crystal clear how unhelpful it is for someone to tell you that you have a problem, and then offer no solution–what good is it to know that you have a serious problem if the person who brings it up offers no help or potential solutions? This might be a brief discussion, an appointment, or a referral to other resources, but “Boy do you have a problem!”–without any help attached is, in my mind, nothing less than an act of indirect aggression.
GET PERSONAL It helps tremendously to bring up a similar situation or dog that you yourself have had. I didn’t mention this in my first post, but I realized while reading the comments that I do it all the time. It helps people see that the “problem” is not their fault, that these things happen to experienced trainers, and that there are solutions/potentials for the future that someone can guide you through.
PROVE IT & BE SPECIFIC It’s not enough to say “Boy are you going to have trouble with that dog!” Carefully explain exactly what it is that you are seeing that needs to be attended to and why someone should listen to what you have to say. (“Do you see how the corners of her mouth are retracted while she’s barking at me, and she is actually backing up as she does so? Those are often signs of fear in young dogs, and after 20 + years in the business I’ve seen so many fearful puppies become adult dogs who get into trouble when visitors come. The good news is that this is almost always a treatable problem. I have a dog right now who was just like that when he was an adolescent, and I had visitors throw treats for him every time they came over. Now he is ….” etc etc etc.)
DON’T EXAGGERATE I like the the suggestion of presenting the “best and worst case” scenario. This is an important way to be realistic, and avoid people from dismissing what you have to say. “It may turn out just fine, but I’ve seen so many dogs like this who ended up in trouble… why gamble with a dog who might be that “one in a million” dog that you talk to your grandchildren about!” It’s a tricky line, I admit–saying enough to get someone’s attention, without overstating the issue such that you lose them completely. But, then, isn’t life often about walking on those thin lines between helpful and tiresome?
CUSTOMIZE If this is a client, it is critical to customize your advice. Every case is different, and cookie-cutter solutions to even common problems often don’t work. Every client needs to feel special, because they are. Every case is different, because it is. People desperately need to feel they’ve been listened to, and that your advice is truly something that can work for them. I often start out by saying “Ideally, we’d do X and Y, but then, there’s real life (and your spouse and five kids to acknowledge).” I always ask if they think my suggestions could work for them, and pay lots of attention to body language that says one thing, and a verbal response that says another.
UNDERSTAND THAT CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING This is especially for non-trainers, because most trainers are well aware that a dog can behave one way in one context and another way in a different setting. A word to the wise: I can not tell you how many times I’ve heard clients complain that their vets won’t listen to them about their behavioral problem because the dog is so good in the clinic. Dogs can behave one way to one person, and be a different dog to someone else. They can be docile and loving at the vet clinic and a terror at home. Etc Etc. If people tell you they have a problem, then they have a problem. It may be a slightly different one than they perceive it to be, but if it’s a problem to your client, then it’s a problem. That said, kukos and body wags to all the veterinarians and vet techs out there who work so hard to educate their clients and work to prevent behavioral problems. All behaviorists and trainers send our appreciation (and our sympathy). It’s tough sometimes. Thus, the next point:
ACCEPT OUR LIMITS No matter how good any trainer, vet, behaviorist or friend, there are times that people simply aren’t going to listen to us. In many cases, it is natural to dismiss something the first time you hear it. (Don’t you do that yourself sometimes?) It’s not until the second or third time that we are ready to hear what’s being said. That’s one reason why maintaining a relationship can be so important, as well as finding a way to stay involved if it is appropriate.
And sometimes, no matter what, we’re just not going to get the response we want. We need to let it go. This isn’t easy for people who spend at least part of their lives learning how to influence and manage the behavior of another (!), but it’s a critical skill that we all need to nurture. Let it go. It’s okay. As James Herriot quoted his mentor in “All Creatures Great and Small,” “Don’t worry son, you can’t kill ’em all.” And we can’t save ’em all, either. Neither can vets or physicians. Let it go. Breath. Move on.
One of the ways we all do that is focus on our own animals. And so, . . .
. . . Meanwhile, back at the farm: It is still absurdly warm here, in the 50’s most days, low 30’s at night. Two years ago we had well over foot of snow by now. Does that mean I’m all caught up on the “preparing for winter chores?” Not even close. (All of you who live in warm climates might want to smile now.) There are still hoses to flush and put away, water heaters in stock tanks to check, roses to mulch, and garages to clean out. And the food! Oh my my my. This time of year there is food piling up around us like a nutritious, tasty tsunami. I have a winter share at my local CSA (Vermont Valley Community Farm), and now have enough potatoes and carrots to feed small armies. In addition, I gleaned the fields and now have 12 packages of “extra” broccoli in the freezer. This weekend I’ll be out hacking down left over brussel sprout trees, slicing the tiny cabbage-like morsels off of the stalk and then freezing them after a brief trip into boiling water.
But there’s a ram to get to my friend’s (Redford having done his job at my farm), new gates to buy for the new pens inside the barn that Jim is building, and a meditation retreat on Sunday. Oooooh, I love weekends at home!
Here’s some broccoli, cleaned and trimmed, waiting to be processed for freezing. It’s a little more mature than what you’d want to buy in a store, but it’s still yummy and nutritious.
And here’s my Lassie girl, all 15 years and 11 months of her, bringing back the dilapidated disc. It’s not a great photo, a little fuzzy, but then, it’s my old Lassie girl and I’m an absolute sop over pictures of her. especially when she’s being active and playful.
Krista says
I’m afraid I don’t have anything to add to your discussion. I just want to say–everytime I see a photo of Lassie, she just takes my breath away. She is so, so beautiful.
Taryn says
Wow! Almost 16 and Lassie still wants to play frisbee! Patricia, you sure must be doing something so very right!
Alexandra says
Great post – thank you!
Lassie is adorable, as always. 🙂
Jessie says
You know, know that you mention it, I DID get some of those “that dog is going to be a problem” comments with no help whatsoever before Jessie nearly killed another dog, and it did really anger me!
I used to board her at a wonderful facility when she was a pup. I won’t name them. But long before I saw any problem behaviors in her, they mentioned to me that she had lunged at dogs in hallways and that they wanted to book her with their staff behaviorist. I said ” Godspeed! Make it happen!” This happened 3 or 4 times over about 8 weeks. But they were still comfortable with her, told me the Behaviorist was on it, and I sort of let it slide. I asked if the Behaviorist had any thoughts, was told she hadn’t been seen yet. They were the professionals and they thought it was under control.
I also told them that even though she was booked for group play whilst boarded that they should feel absolutely comfortable in switching her to individual play if they thought that was safer and I would gladly pay for it. They did not need to reach me by phone first (I was on airplanes so much that would not have been possible.) They kept telling me they saw no need to take her out of group play, and the Behaviorist would evaluate her soon.
Well, she darned near killed a Maltese in that group play and broke two fingers of the staff person who tried to break up the fight. My immediate reaction was horror, confusion, grief, shame, guilt ( oh the guilt!), wanting to make legally inadvisable retribution, wondering if I had to put her down and all of that. You could not pay me to go through that week again–I’d choose death, honestly.
But eventually, I got really, really angry. They saw it coming and didn’t tell me what to do. Didn’t take the dog out of potentially dangerous situations. They were the ‘professionals’ and I trusted them. And then they did a lot of things wrong that made the impending problem a friggin disaster.
Obviously, I am still angry 6 years later! To their credit, my dog made them change many of their policies. While I acknowledge and appreciate that, that’s no help to me or the owner of that poor, poor Maltese or their injured staff.
I had asked for help and got none, made it abundantly clear I was hungry for their recommendations and got none. They saw trouble brewing and did little to nothing. I am actually speechless, 6 years later, and still infuriated.
So yes, saying that there may be a problem and offering no help, or worse yet , saying they will help but not helping, is worse than any other option.
Pike says
Beautiful picture of Lassie and a heartwarming summary of the previous posts! Gee, I wish there would be more behaviorists like you over here on the Oregon Coast, where dog training is mostly still in the dark ages and behaviorists hours away.
One more thought on clients not listening: It is only now
Holly says
oh my. Jessie, I am so sorry for you and your dog. I hope that you HAVE found help since then.
Learning to accept my limits has been hard for me. I’ve found that success or not depends on if the client will do the work. It’s HARD work, to have a dog that needs this kind of help, and it’ s often a lifelong task. Clients often don’t want to work that hard, for that long (and neither do I for that matter but I do it because I can). Because of these limitations, and the ensuing frustration for me, I’ve begun to offer one eval session and tell the client up front that I will decide after that eval if we will continue if they wish. If I choose not to continue based on how effective their learning skills and determination are, I leave them with lots of resources to use, and other trainers to call. If I choose to continue and they agree, we do it in 4 sessions each, re-evaluating after each session. The clients that I’ve continued on with, sometimes become somewhat dependent on me to tell them what to do and weaning them to thinking it through on their own is hard and scary for them. I am proud of the clients I have continued with…..even though they sometimes don’t keep up the work at the level they were at when I quit, they at least felt somewhat empowered to help or protect their dog and once they do the work they can see the differences in their pet.
Holly says
one more thing….Lassie was mentioned on Chronicle of the Horse bulletin board last week in reference to a dog who was too active and inappropriate for the original family she went to.
I let them know that Lassie is alive and well and still featured here.
Kim says
happy almost 16th birthday Lassie…incredible!
thanks for your wonderful blog!
Anne says
I’m loving this Wisconsin fall weather- although I keep putting away hoses and getting out the heated livestock buckets, and then getting out hoses and summer buckets.
Natalie says
With our Shepherd I noticed early on that we had a problem situation – he had some serious possession guarding aggression issues. I ended up contacting 2 or 3 behaviorists in the area by email, sending them a quick (like, a paragraph or two) explanation of what I was seeing and asking for help. All of them told me it was a major problem and basically said that they couldn’t fix that kind of problem. Now in retrospect I think I see what they meant – that he will always have issues, despite what we do or how much we work with him. But the message I got when I was desperate was that there was nothing to do about it. At least one of the behaviorists said – BY EMAIL, going ONLY off of what I had written in two paragraphs – recommended euthanasia. I was near hysterical at that point. I mean, WTF were we going to do? Just kill the dog without even trying?
We ended up taking him to one training class where, of course, he behaved perfectly. He learned sit, down and heel, but of course was still immensely possesion-aggressive, especially with me. Which is to say, the problem wasn’t solved.
Years later I have learned through trial and error how to manage the bad behaviors and he is 10 times better than he ever was. Is he “all better”? No. But I understand the behavior much much better, so I know what triggers it and I know how to avoid the problem altogether, and how to manage it if we do get into a situation. He is still very much alive and well-loved by this family. He doesn’t have a perfect life, but he seems pretty happy.
But really, when I look back at the whole situation and how it played out, I know he would have been dead had he ended up with some other family – whether it was before or after he seriously injured someone. I shudder to think about it.
Kat says
Thank you for this blog and for considering this problem. And for your lovely pictures. Lassie is such a charmer and Willy is adorable. Not to mention all the other pictures of life around you.
I have a related question; how do you tell people their dog is just being a dog? The other day at the park a man was scolding his 5 month old American Bulldog for putting his head under another dogs abdomen and sniffing and licking. The other dog was patiently waiting for the puppy to finish getting acquainted and nothing inappropriate was happening. I can’t help but think that being scolded for being a dog in that context is going to do anything positive for puppy’s social skills. I tried saying something to the effect of “he’s just being a dog doing what dogs do to say hello, sort of like a kid introducing themselves to a new person and asking all about them–who are you, what do you do, how do you feel, are you going to be my friend?” but I don’t think the man was hearing me.
Mary Lou says
Lassie is beautiful … you must be very proud of her. Kat’s comment about people reprimanding their dogs for greeting other dogs , I hear that all the time, a dog will nicely approach one of my girls and attempt to engage in a round robin of tail sniffs and the owner will jerk her dog back and say something like ‘that’s nasty’. And then they end up with a dog that thinks greeting another dog in appropriate dog fashion is ‘bad’ … I’m not a trainer or a professional, but it seems fairly obvoous to me that if you deprive a dog of the ‘signals’ used by his species, you’re asking for trouble!
Sabine says
Hi Trisha,
it is wonderful to see Lassie so active and happy in her senior years ! :)) You go girl, Lassie !! Many happy romps in the leaves !
The good old aggression problem and those 1000 “specialists” around it. It blows your mind how many people consider play growls as serious aggression problems and shun the dogs for their happy growls. My shepherd sounds like a lioness when she is playing and at her size, people always get very concerned about it. Dogs that frighten me are those who get eerily quiet before they attack.
I do evaluate prospective therapy dogs and it is crucial to be able to read body language. After all, that is a dog that will be visiting the sick and the elderly and the last thing we need there is an aggression problem. Be it triggered by fear or character flaws. I can’t tell you how often people act hurt or surprised when I have to flunk their little angel for behaviors that could get troublesome along the road to visiting the compromised.
I also want to look at it from the other side of the aisle: How many people were told that their dogs do have an aggression problem and that they are ticking time bombs and yet they did not find it necessary to seek advice or be cautious ? How many people get dogs that do not fit their lifestyles and dogs they will not be able to satisfy in their work ethics ? (Good example: The border collie in the city apartment. ) What makes me incredibly sad are the dogs being put down because of behavior problems that are caused by their owners. They become neurotic, aggressive, distructive – frustrated dogs ! Can we blame them ? All dogs need exercise and keeping them locked up in a back yard does not fulfill their need to roam. I’m out every day for at least 2 hours with my dogs. Rain or shine.
There’s not bad weather – just bad clothing. 🙂
I once rescued a dobi-shepherd mix who was about to be put down because of behavior problems. It took me two years to rehabilitate this dog and I was able after two years of hard work to adopt her out to a big horse farm in Minnesota where she still lives. (She will be 15 in the spring ! )
I am by no means a professional dog person, but dogs are my life. I live and breath dogs (animals in general) and if I have a problem I can’t handle myself I will seek advice from someone who is knowledgeable and who I trust. Unfortunately there are many self nominated behavior experts out there who could do more harm than good with their methods and their evaluations.
Don’t you all get sometimes frustrated when you see people treating dogs like “things” ?
My neighbor got himself a pitbull/cane corso puppy. That puppy was chained to the kitchen stairs from day one and I hear him cry all day long. This puppy is going to grow into one frustrated fighting machine and my hands are tied, because animal control won’t confiscate him as long as he looks well-fed or until he has hurt someone……………… Scary thought, isn’t it ? Looking at this poor soul makes my heart bleed ! 🙁 He deserves so much better.
Susannah Charleson says
I love it when blog posts leave me thoughtful for days, as this series has.
I had some trouble with Puzzle, my search-and-rescue Golden Retriever, early in her time here with us. Those troubles are very much a part of the coming book, but these posts lead me to look back at that period again, with interest. I had a beautiful Golden puppy who worked hard from the start and was friendly to people, dogs, and cats alike, but who was almost obsessively aggressive with one of my littlest Poms at home, usually in the vicinity of an empty food dish (before I could get to it) or my dropped clothing (which I learned not to drop in the first place).
Hard lessons of love, correction, and consistent expectations — not just on the Golden’s part, but on the part of all the dogs, because it was with the little Poms I was making the greatest mistakes. The Golden seemed aware she was being held to a different standard. Once we got that ironed out, my mysterious Golden problems went away, too.
I still take notes and ponder. And read this blog. Thank you for that!
Anna says
My last PWC was my first dog and I was trying to do everything the right way. I took him to a good positive type trainer to get the basic obedience and it was going well but when I expressed to the trainer concerns I had about feeding time and issues going on there she dismissed me as “an idiot first time dog owner as he just being a dog”. Well as time progressed things got worse and finally I ended up being bitten which hurt my soul more than my body. The weekend after the incident that trainer held an Emma Parson’s seminar at the school and for the first time I learned about food agression and ways to deal with it. I left the trainer for several reasons but I do value the fact that she gave me a book called “The Other End of the Leash” and the Parson’s seminar.
My two new PWC puppies show no sign of food agression which is great but I am still learning lots about training and what to look for in behavior to keep us on the right track.
JJ says
These tips are good reminders for everyone, not just the experts. Before my dog got hurt, we went to the dog park almost every day. We got to know lots of dogs and their owners through seeing them come about the same time too. Once a 10 week old Lab puppy was playing tug with my Great Dane. They had done this before with no problem. I was very found of that puppy. At one point my Duke got bored and dropped the rope. The puppy still had one end in his mouth. When other dogs came in to play tug after Duke dropped the rope, that puppy turned into a VERY scary creature: snarling, growling, and snapping at the other dogs in a way that I found alarming. I’ve never seen anything like that in a puppy.
The first thing that popped into my head was, “I’d get professional help for that.” It sounds OK in writing maybe, but even in my head, I knew it would have come out flippant/rude and totally unhelpful.
I remember looking with wide eyes, silently at the owner. The owner knew what I was asking. She said with no concern at all something to the effect of, “Oh, he does that because he hangs out with these other dogs who do that all the time with their toys. He’s learning it from them.” I didn’t care where it came from. You can’t bring a dog to the dog park with that those kinds of problems.
But for the life of me, I couldn’t think of a way to address it that would be helpful. I tried for the next 1/2 hour to think how I could tactfully approach them and say something that would describe my concern and give them something concrete they could do. I never ended up saying nothing. While that may have been better than saying the wrong thing, I wish I knew what I could have done or said that would have made a difference. Because to this day, I’m convinced that that dog grew up to have serious problems. (But I don’t know because Duke got hurt soon after that.)
This post gives me some good idea, but I still don’t know if I could have pulled it off. I think it takes practice/skill to do it effectively.
Thanks for the discussion.
cassie says
Thanks for these two posts (I’m always a bit behind getting to read them). I’d been having a rough week when I posted about people not listening, but I usually have pretty good luck with it.
Like you said you do- I also try to make it sound like a kid’s problems. The thing that helps the most for me is really making it clear that it isn’t about them or anything they did. The moment people get in defensive mode all learning is over.
There’s this fine line between being blunt and being understanding. I try to tell them about a similar problem I had with a dog, or how my personal dog had to work on something, so that it is clear that we’re all in the same boat.
I also had to lose any embarrassment I had over acting silly. I use my body to demonstrate dog body language all day in the office, and I’m sure my clients think it’s a little silly too. But a lot of times it’s the only way to help them see what I am trying to explain (posters and pictures help too). I also think it helps loosen everyone up when the serious doctor starts showing the difference between happy body language and nervous body language. Once they feel more at ease they are more likely to start asking questions and saying things like “Oh yeah, he does that too”
The animal shelter in my town has a play area for their adoptable dogs, and whether it is smart or not, they often let them out in large groups to socialize. I’m headed over there next weekend to take a lot of pictures so I can hopefully get an even bigger database of behavior pictures to show people in the office. Don’t worry though, I’ll still do my fair share of body language demos myself too! (It’s too fun not to)
Debra says
I wonder if Trisha had me and my recent experience in mind. Certainly, I felt blown off by the ADPT trainer (with certifications for treating dog aggression) who I engaged to come to my home. I asked if she would work with us more than once and she acted like she did not hear. As she walked away, I heard her mutter, “you have a big problem.” As she departed with my check in her fist and sailed off in her SUV, I pictured her dusting her hands off. I feel such bitterness over her unprofessional behavior. I then contacted an animal behaviorist of some note and was told “you live too far away; you should find someone closer to you.” Oh, I feel bitter at them, too.
I can tell you with all certainty that the impact of deciding to euthanize cannot be understated. For 4 months I have grappled with immense sorrow, guilt and regret. Certainly, a large chunk of myself went away with my beloved dog, Jelly. I tried getting help from the rescue group from whom I got her. They would have taken her back only to place her in a dusty pen in northern California with a wooden box for shelter, fresh straw every day, and minimal human interaction. This for a dog who had never slept outside? A dog who after coming through a TPLO surgery and 8 weeks strict confinement had separation anxiety? A dog who was extremely fearful of dogs? Some rescues believe in life at any cost. Taking a hard look at the situation, I changed my values in this regard.
Rescues and sanctuaries do wonderful work saving the lives of many discarded family pets, but sending adoptees out the door with their new family with a “Good luck! You’re on your own now” is not good enough. Each rescue should be evaluating dogs for temperament and they should have a preferred referral list of trainers and animal behaviorists in the area that they are serving.
Likewise, veterinarians should keep referral lists.
I had been working with a trainer in whom I had absolute confidence and Jelly had made good progress. However, that trainer closed her business and left the country. In retrospect, I had lucked into finding her and wish so fervently that she had not left. How I wish that The International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants and the Association of Pet Dog Trainers had a service like 1-800-dentist rather than trying to dial your way through a list that is not so very up to date. How wonderful it would have been to have someone at the end of a phone line who would send you to someone with whom you could work and in whom you had confidence.
Trisha says
First, “Here Here!” to more vets acting ‘silly’ in their offices and demonstrating canine body language themselves! Yeah for Cassie!
In relation to those of you who were not helped by ‘experts’… you sincerely have my sympathies. It can be so difficult when we are looking for answers and the very people we think might give it to us let us down. I hope it helps a bit to read, on the other end of the spectrum, how many people try to give advice and feel frustrated that they are getting no where, or simply don’t know what to say. This communication thing is a struggle at best. I know I’ve been on all sides: trying to warn (and help) someone only to know that my words will be ignored, being told something by someone that I wasn’t ready to hear, or by someone who said it in just the wrong way. I’ve been given bad advice that caused serious harm both to myself, my dogs and my family. We are a flawed species at best, there’s no way around it. I work every day to try to accept what life brings, and ask myself what is the lesson I am supposed to learn here? I am successful only part of the time (just ask my friends), but it does help to try to look at others with as much compassion as I can muster.
To JJ: I too have memories of moments that I wish I had known what to do at a particular time. The hardest one was when I recognized a dog I knew in an appalling situation. She was in a hanging, wire cage, looking starved and filthy, with a litter of puppies playing as best they could in a moldy water dish. I was surrounded by neighbors, at a farm close by, and I was too much of a coward to say anything. I literally left in shock. I struggle mightily to forgive myself for not stopping the world at that very second, taking the dog out of the cage and causing all kinds of upset and embarrassment for all involved. I tried to get her away from there a few days later, but by then she had been moved with her owners. Every time I think of her I ask her to forgive me, and every time I think of her I try to forgive myself. We all have things to forgive, yes? How good of us to be as kind to ourselves as we are (or should be?) to others. I repeat what I said in the post, to all of us: We can’t fix everything. It’s okay. It’s okay.
Dena Norton says
Today I just want to comment on how much I enjoyed your pictures of the beautiful “oldies” on your farm, both Lassie and the broccoli!
Trisha says
One comment re Natalie’s experience with a “behaviorist” who recommended euthanasia without even seeing the dog. Oh my. That’s another example of the confusion about a “behaviorist”… what does that term mean, anyway? I don’t know anyone who I would call a behaviorist who would make such a recommendation. A life and death decision, without even seeing the dog? FYI, people call this office often, or used to when I saw more clients (I see a limited number now), and ask me to tell them whether to put their dog ‘down’ based on a 5 minute phone conversation. I always answered: “I can’t help you make a life and death decision based on a brief phone call…” Usually they would understand but, of course, not always.
Jessie says
Thank you to those who responded with such concern about Jessie.
Our vet at the time was the one who convinced me she need not be euthanized, which I had assumed was the inevitable solution to our huge problem. I had grown up with English Setters, and this just did not happen with that breed. I ‘d been a wreck from the second I learned of the tragedy at the boarding facility, had to take the two days off work and went to my vet to euthanize her.
God bless him! He talked me through the entire thing. I had a pit mix. Check. She had just reached maturity. Check. This was not crazy out of character for the breed at maturity. OK, surprising to me at the time. Recommended a thyroid panel. YES, anything to help, please! ( she was normal) Pointed out this was her FIRST aggressive incident. Check. Better chance of intervening and changing behavior. REALLY? GREAT!!! Explained that a person breaking up a dog fight getting bitten was not a cause for concern of general human aggression. OK, glad and endlessly relieved to hear that!
He was right. He gave me Karen Overall’s Protocol for Relaxation. The names of 2 local Behaviorists, the strict admonition that my dog could never be trusted with other dogs but was no worry with humans (unless they got between her and other dogs) and to muzzle her when I could not avoid other dogs.
He was right. We ultimately went through 4 behaviorists and 3 trainers, mainly because I didn’t want to hear what I suspected was true. My dog is dog aggressive. Yup, that’s the verdict! I spent a lot of money trying to avoid facing the inevitable, but did learn some good management tools along the way. But you know what? Karen Overall was the WIN here! Totally! Can’t recommend that program enough.
Karen Overall’s protocol. Ms. McConnell’s teachings ( which really allowed me to see ‘trouble brewing!’ ) , and my commitment to this dog made her first incident her last SERIOUS incident. And there have been no incidents period in about 5 years. And boy did I learn what to watch for! Trisha, that was you-you taught me the signs to be ever vigilant for, and it as not easy to tease these out in a pit! Bless you for that help!! She’s 7 now, the boarding horror was at 15 months.
So thanks to all, yes, it worked out OK in the end. But that boarding incident could have been avoided if they had taken the early signs more seriously and had helped me when I asked, rather than poo-pooing me. If it would be helpful to explain just how badly they went wrong, I will explicate. Otherwise, I will not. They are not bad people and I do not wish to sully their reputation unnecessarily.
To the topic at hand, I was told by the boarding facility that there may be a MINOR issue, I shouldn’t worry about it, blah blah blah. Obviously, it was NOT a minor issue. This facility tried to ride the line between saying something and not saying something. I wish they had come at me guns blazing and said “your dog is not safe here!” I would have listened. They probably wish they had too!
Jessie says
And to add to my previous response,. some of these behaviorists and trainers tried to convince me that Jessie could be trustworhty with other dogs. I wanted to believe them so I tried it out.
It did not go well.
The BEST situation we had was when she ran away from a 100 pound Lab until he cornered her. Then she fought back, blew out a knee from taking on his 100pd+ weight in the altercation, but she did worship him after that. Just from watching her after all I had read from Trisha, I knew this was not going to end well, and it didn’t. I had to be inside behind a screen to even try it. I let someone unqualified talk me into this. He was a very stable dog, but my dog was NOT. Huge mistake. And she really messed up her stifle !
Karen Overall’s Protocol has been the best for us.
For those not familiar with it, you are essentially teaching the dog to stop and look to you for direction whenever the dog is overly aroused in any way. You have to practice it DAILY for YEARS. But it WORKS!
-Jessie, who’d happily attack a dog for showing up? Here are some examples of how it works:
-Petsitter did a faceplant while walking her, Jessie layed down beside her and waited for a command!
-I was walking the Jester one day. A JRT burst out of a screen and was trying to attack Jessie. She just sat next to me and waited for me to sort it out.
-One of my mom’s dog jumped the babygate to play with her. She found me, lay down and waited for me to get rid of him.
-Any time she is upset in any way, she has to come to me. She just always expects me to fix anything and everything–at home, on a walk, at the vet’s, whatever and wherever. Is she overly dependent on me? Probably. But it is far better than the alternative!
Sabine says
Where I come from, you can’t even spay or neuter a pet without a medical indication, let alone put a dog to sleep by a vet if you decide it doesn’t fit your lifestyle anymore. Then again – we don’t crop or dock either. It’s against the law. Sure – people find loopholes and ways to discard of their pets if they really want to, but they won’t get any help from a veterinarian to do so, plus they face prosecution if caught.
Unfortunately, dogs have become a commodity which is altered to the way people find it aesthetically pleasing by chopping off their ears and/or tails. They don’t want to be bothered to be responsible dog owners by worrying that a bitch gets bred each and every cycle, so we rid her of her reproductive system, instead of paying attention not to let her interact with every male in the neighborhood. Males get “fixed” so we don’t have to put up with their lovesick whining……..etc.etc.
Don’t get me wrong – spaying and neutering is the lesser evil to overpopulation and better safe than sorry than creating more unwanted pets. 🙁 I’m bitter about those humans who don’t pay any attention to their dogs, let them grow into unmanageable adults and then throw them away as if they were damaged goods. Some of us take those poor souls in, give them all we got and either we manage to turn them around, or we fail. Either way – it brakes our hearts, while in the meantime throw-away-society produces more of our future rescue dogs to break our hearts……….. Poor Debra is a prime example for having taken in such a discarded soul and having to experience that despair of a person who has done everything she could to help that rescued dog. My heart goes out to you, Debra !
Most of the aggression issues don’t have to happen – they were created by those who thought they knew everything about dogs and treat dogs like “little people”. Dogs are NOT “little people” and “function” differently, as many surprised dog owners find out every day. Also – dogs are individuals and can not be treated as if they have little microchips in their ears with “good-dog-behavior-programs” programmed onto them. My dogs are by no means little furangels, but that’s what I love about them: their individuality and their different characters.
As far as dog trainers and animal behaviorists go: There are just too many unqualified ones out there and it’s frightening !
Trisha – I can’t forget the video of that golden retriever you showed at a seminar. That poor dog was more or less taught to guard his resources and payed for it with his life at the end. His misery began with a dog trainer (…and I use this term very lightly) giving all the wrong advice to his owners. It’s sad.
Anna says
You know sometimes we focus so much on the troublesome behaviors that we forget to enjoy the fun ones. These two puppies I have right now are teaching me to lighten up some and enjoy. My 11 month old male runs like the wind in the yard, not chasing anything but running and jumping and having pure joy doing it… next summer I may just have to let him have a try at agility. The new little girl has added a new deminsion to the fun as she figures out life and Rudy gets to show her fun stuff to do… it is a pleasure just to sit and watch them be dogs and have fun. At this very moment they are chasing an empty Pepsi bottle around the house and having grand ole time doing it… “dogs at play, play dogs play.”
Denise says
Trishia, your quotes around “behaviorist” are telling. It is too common for people who have no business calling themselves “trainers” to hang out shingles but even worse are the unqualified “behaviorists.” And what about the TV “trainers” broadcasting horrible ideas constantly? How are pet owners supposed to distinguish between the fakes and the genuine? Add to that the stress of dealing with a dog they don’t understand and maybe are becoming afraid of and it’s an awful situation. I was extremely fortunate to find wonderful, competent people with whom to work and I know (now) how lucky I was in the end. What is needed is a licensing requirement with real teeth but it’s hard to imagine that happening anytime soon. Incentives for veterinary students to study behavior in depth would be grand too but who am I kidding? It’s on my wish list though. In the meantime, a few good magazines, some great books and blogs (like yours!) are getting the word out and those of us who have lived the experience need to be willing to share. Sometimes I wonder if I should shut up about it but – nope – that’s not happening anytime soon either!
DebC says
It has been really great to read all these comments. It is good to hear about other’s experiences and outcomes.
I would like to add, however, one thing to Trisha’s list….maybe it’s already covered under ‘Kindness’.
Sometimes, in spite of all you do, or try, no matter how much advice you take – it just doesn’t work. The dog is ‘wired wrong’ or you can’t get everyone in the house to be on the same boat with you(and it is a group effort to handle a dog with issues). When an owner has to do, what to them is the unthinkable, please please please show them compassion. It is absolutely the hardest thing to have to admit that you have done all you can, that you have reached your limits and the dog is just never going to be manageable. You can’t give the dog away either, because ultimately you own the problem and you have the responsibility.
If you have tried to help someone in this position, please don’t make them feel any more guilty about the decision than they do already. Just tell them you understand, that you know they did all they could – and mean it. That will be a blessing to them, and they will keep those words close…trust me, it will be small comfort, but comfort none the less!
Denise says
Jessie, I agree with you 100% about Karen Overall’s Relaxation Protocol. It’s been almost three years for us. Last weekend, my boy actually lay down (his idea) outside a very busy farmer’s market to watch the action. It took me a second to register what had just happened. My hypervigilent, clinically anxious, dog/people reactive boy was lying down, relaxing, enjoying the show. We were not in the market mind you but still, we were only about 20 feet away – awesome for him: there were dogs, kids, old people all milling around, being themselves, even staring occasionally, and he remained composed, checkig in with me and taking treats calmly. It DOES take years and if I had a complaint about some of the really good help available it would be that even great trainers/behaviorists tend to gloss over that little detail somewhat but I guess that’s OK. Maybe they’re worried it will be the last straw that will keep an owner from trying. If you are committed, you’ll figure it out for yourself anyway. The rewards are so worth it.
S says
I have contemplated whether to comment, but have to since reading Debra’s comments. I wholeheartedly agree that rescues need to do better at supporting the families who adopt or foster otherwise they risk getting these dogs back and too much of that and you have dogs with even more issues. My male rescue has SA and his records indicate some back and forth. When I reached out to the rescue for some help and advice, the response I received ranged from “its your fault” to “you need to totally revamp your social structure in your home”. I followed up on the ones that had validity, but they didn’t truly help and some just weren’t workable with my life (that yes involves a job which thankfully I do from home, a husband and young children, limited time etc). Fortunately, I came across Trisha’s booklet and immediately instituted the protoccol I hadn’t already discovered on my own, plus my vet turned out to be a behaviorist and she was also an immense help. Even when she clearly indicated to me disappointment that I could not do a training class with my dog she was willing to help me come up with other options I could do on my own (amazing what resources there are from toys, training info, clicker training etc). I find overall that dog pros and enthusiasts are very black and white, very judgemental, as if I should not have dogs if I’m not able to take them to training classes or doggie daycare or walk them and play for 2 hours a day. (2 short training at home sessions a day and a 30-40 min walk every am and longer hikes on the weekend are what is doable for me – not exactly neglect in my book)
I like the suggestions that Trisha gives – I would likely be receptive, especially when acknowledgement is made that most folks don’t have endless hours and money and energy to put into their dogs. And sometimes folks make mistakes – my first dog was a bad fit for me but I finally found someone who helped me – not the local trainer that told me he was an alpha dog and I was going to have my hands full, why did I pick that breed even, and then ignored me throughout the 2 training sessions I paid her for (why I spent over 4 months enduring this torture is beyond me – when my vet recently suggested her for my current dogs I told her no, she plays favorites and she actually did agree). I would love for a professional to give me advice, to help discuss options that work for me but still address the issue, and then FOLLOW UP – call and check on me, or email me, or something that shows you are concerned.
thanks for this topic – definitely an important one.
Kristy says
I am with S on this. We have 2 dogs, a Belgian Sheepdog and a Pit Mix. The pit mix is a rescue we aquired 1.5 years ago. He has SA, anxiety issues, and OCD type behaviors. (He licks the ground continuously when not medicated, has fearful food/resource guarding behaviors, and several other quirks) We have worked hard with this rescue dog and have gotten many of his issues under control-but cannot lick his habit of soiling the crate daily when we have to work. It is maddening since the rescue admitted after the fact that he bounced between 4 foster homes before we got him, and that he has always had the soiling issues hence the bouncing. They however refuse to speak to us since, like S’s case, they gave us the “It’s your fault you need to revamp the social structure and assert your dominance over him” training line and they also suggested that if he lifted his lip to us or growled while working on his resource guarding we should “Squirt him inthe face or mouth with bitter apple” They also insisted we ramp up our NILF program that this dog has been on since day one to a higher more physical level to get more control over him. We told them by no means would we squirt our dog with bitter apple for transgressions as they could cause more fearful aggressive behavior, and that we needed help with the SA aspect of this problem since we were making huge strides in all other areas. Now we are stuck between a rock and ahrd place with this dog and I feel powerless to get any help since most who I have consulted with have made very similar suggestions. I wish people I have worked with with our rescue would have been as frank, honest and open as the discussion points listed above. Thanks for the great topic Trisha-I love these discussions.
JJ says
Trisha: Thank you for your reply. Your story brought tears to my eyes. I know exactly what you are talking about and like your way of trying dealing with it. Much better than what I typically do to myself.
Jessie says
Denise, Karen Overall’s program is wonderful. We’re in complete agreement. It’s certainly no ‘overnight’ fix. You have to commit to the program and practice it daily as long as you have the dog, and that can stretch one’s creativity.
Again, for those unfamiliar with it, the program essentially is a long series of sit/stays or down/stays with ever increasing crazy stimuli. The dog is only rewarded when he is calm , totally calm, and looking to you for direction. By practicing this daily for essentially the life of your relationship with the dog, the dog learns that if he is wound, he has to stop and look to YOU for direction. He’s not to make decisions on his own. All decisions come from the human handling him at the time.
I used to walk a highly reactive, aggressive 130 pd dog. I met with the owner and gave her the Protocol. She did try it, and the dog got somewhat better. Personally, I think her dog needs to be euthanized and I can’t imagine why she hangs on to him. He is a truly dangerous dog. I don’t walk him any longer and I told her why. Frankly, it wasn’t worth the risk to me and I do not believe in my heart that he will EVER be trustworthy with dogs or humans. She’s going to end up putting him down, I know it. And she’ll beat herself up over it forever, unfortunately.
But I do keep in contact with the walkers who service him now, and he is far less reactive, although not trustworthy.
You can make progress with any dog on the Protocol. Whether you SHOULD is another matter.