From August 2008: So I’m working Will, my young Border Collie, asking him to push the lambs into a corner so that I could catch and treat a sick one. (Lambs get diarrhea just like people and dogs do, I suspect it feels just as bad for them as it does for the rest of us. Poor little guy looked miserable.) Willie is doing really well at this kind of task, even though he can be the kind of dog who is “sticky” and won’t push the sheep forward when it’s needed sometimes. But he seems to love real work, when the sheep really have to get into the truck, or the lambs have to be pushed into a corner so that we can catch and treat one. How do I know? Well, I don’t for sure, but his eyes seem brighter, he looks especially animated when we are done and most importantly, he is much braver when we have “real job” to do than he is when we are “training.” Don’t get me wrong, he loves to work sheep anytime, he seems to live for it, and generally he works beautifully. He’s extremely biddable, especially for a young dog, has great natural balance and perfect flanks.
But, sometimes when we are up the hill practicing his outruns or his flanks (going left or right around the sheep), he is hesitant to push the sheep forward. He’ll stop, sit down (silly looking for a working Border collie) and have to be encouraged to walk up on the sheep and get them moving. Not so when we have real work to do. He is much more apt to put pressure on the sheep, facing down a balky ewe or lunging at a lamb to force it to move away from him. Last night he came away with a fluff of wool in his mouth–a first for him in a year and a half of work. (That is not encouraged, but the lamb was not injured in any way, and I was glad to see him get a little pushy at this age. He’ll learn finesse soon enough, right now he needs to learn to take charge when he needs to.)
So here’s the question: is Willie braver, more willing to take charge when we have real work to do because he understands that the exercise has a goal, or because I change and relax my standards, and am focused on the goal myself, rather than on Willie doing it perfectly? It’s hard to say. I’m a pretty benevolent handler, I rarely raise my voice (don’t have to) and have never touched him except to pet him, but I am nothing close to perfect and I know my voice can change if I get frustrated. So is his change in behavior because of mine? Or because he knows we have a job to do, and he is as goal oriented as I am? My guess is that it’s a little of both. It’s always seemed to me that Border collies know when they are being ‘schooled’ versus when you have a real job to do. I’d love to hear other thoughts on that… from BC folks or from those who work dogs in other functional jobs…
Scottish handlers have always told me that what a dog really needs is to do real work as much as possible. Will and I have the usual problem, common in the states, of a small flock (24 at the moment) and a small farm (14 acres), and a limited amount of work. Someday maybe I can retire and get more sheep, and Will and I can herd to our heart’s content.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm (and back to real time): Well, I haven’t retired yet, but Willie’s sheep work just raised the question about “work” versus “practice” again. Willie still can be a tad hesitant in some contexts, although he hasn’t sat down in years (and I forgot he ever did that). This weekend at a friend’s house did a perfect outrun when the “easy” direction around the sheep, but hesitated a bit as he approached the sheep from the other direction. He sped up when asked, and handled the sheep well after that, but he did make it harder on himself than it needed to be. But, we were just “playing.” Willie knew full well that there was no need for the sheep to move from point A to point B (in part because as soon as he brought them we’d drive them right back).
Contrast that with his work a few days earlier when I needed his help sorting out the lambs who got grain from the others who didn’t. Jim built me a lovely sorting chute (with the help of friend Matt–thank you Matt!), but I made a mistake and messed up the sorting. That meant I had to push the lambs back through the chute, when normally they’d go though just once and then get their grain. This time the lambs balked, and like adolescent lambs everywhere, seemed oblivious to the stalking posture of a working Border Collie. One of them walked straight up to Willie and challenged him from just inches away. In previous years, as a youngster, Willie would have “blown up” and charged forward, or darted away in fear. (To the surprise of many, lambs are actually much harder for dogs to work than ewes). This time he stayed still, met the lamb’s stare head on, and refused to give ground. Finally the lamb turned his head and walked away a few feet but then turned again and challenged Willie again.
Willie, be still my heart, was about as perfect as you could ask a dog to be. He stayed calm, never gave ground, and slowly inched the lambs backward toward the chute. After we got the job done I said “That’ll Do, Will” and whooped and clapped like a cheer leader. Granted, the job were different–one an outrun and the other driving the lambs into a chute, but they are both contexts in which Willie has hesitated in the past. I asked myself again: Do working dogs perceive completing a job as something different than practice? I would argue that they do–the context are so different, and the consequences of doing something right or wrong are too. If it doesn’t go well on a farm, you simply have to keep doing it until you are done. Sometimes this isn’t always much fun, for either the dog or the person. Once you’ve had a few long, frustrating work sessions, I guarantee you that a job well done the first time is highly reinforcing. At least for us. Dogs too?
We seem to be having an ice storm at the moment; my car was covered in ice after I drove back on slippery roads from the office to the farm. I’m going to post this before I lose all internet connection due to a frosty satellite dish.
Here’s Maggie after a snow frolic:
And here are Pink and Spot watching Willie and I through a window in the barn. Nice work framing up a shot, girls!
Robin Jackson says
I would think the answer lies in the phrase: “the context is different…”
If the context is different, then it IS different, and most dogs know it. Since dogs don’t generalise the way people do, this opens up the possibility of differing behaviours.
Most of the working dog trainers I know, whether it’s for service dogs or search and rescue or working farm dogs, do as much as they can to train the dog up to and through fluency in what will be working conditions.
Interestingly, I was just reading a 2010 paper in the European Journal of Behaviour Analysis by Dr. Murray Sidman in which he pointed out that when you’re talking about teaching the precedents to a learner, you need to begin with their feeling comfortable in the environment. This essentially reduces the impact of context.
http://www.ejoba.org/PDF/2010_2/Sidman_2010.pdf
Kat says
Lovely photo of the sheep. It’s always so nice when they cooperate like that.
Interestingly I just finished reading a book called “Schools that Work” that is a case study of several different very successful schools. One of the contentions in the book is that students do better when they have real work to do rather than just practice work sheets. A child writing a letter to an elected official trying to change a law writes a much more professional and well executed letter if the letter will really be sent than if the letter is only going to get turned in for a grade.
I think there’s a parallel there between working Border Collies and students. Context matters. Thinking about my own kids they perform better at the recital than at the dress rehearsal when it comes to music. They write better when it’s going to be read by someone other than the teacher. I don’t see why dogs shouldn’t also be able to distinguish between real work and not real work.
Erin says
Intriguing topic, I’d love to know the answer. As my favorite teacher says “more research is needed.” In the guide dog world, when a dog is finally placed with a blind handler after working with a trainer for months some rise to the task and others “fail to take responsibility” and are stressed by being responsible for making all of the decisions.
In a large part, I feel it is how we act that changes our dogs. In regards to my own dog…When I ha ve a job to do, I am more brisk, stand taller, walk quicker, and straighten my clothes, settle the environment, etc before starting to work the dog. I am more tense, more terse, more confident, less relaxed, more or less focused…depending on the work (obedience, teaching clients, giving presentations, etc) and the audience (children, teachers, clients, etc). When I’m feeling ill or particularly feisty, she changes how hard she plays tug and how much she shakes her head depending on how hard I pull back.
To my dog that knows how I am going to act next depending on how my breathing changes as I get off the couch (a difference I am still trying to flesh out) these must be like flashing signs indicating what will and will not be rewarded and what behaviors will be tolerated or ignored.
She also changes her behavior in response to signals which do not indicate changes in reinforcement opportunity. She changes her behavior in response to a young child on the end of her leash vs a novice handler. Both can be taken advantage of but only the older novice handler will be.
So I guess in conclusion, I would say both?
HFR says
It sounds to me like this is the flip side of performance anxiety. I’ve been active in a lot of competitive sports with my dogs (agility, rally, nosework) and one of the biggest complaints you hear is that dogs do so much better in practice than in a trial situation. This is a very accepted notion blamed on a handler’s nerves. So it makes sense that the opposite would be true: That a dog may perform better under the pressure than he would when he doesn’t feel that pressure.
I just read about the study that says that stressed dogs perform better at tasks than those that aren’t (only slightly stressed, at some point it’s counterproductive). Here’s a link to the piece in The Bark about the “emotional contagion” study. http://thebark.com/content/emotional-contagion
It also reminds me of the phenomenon where my dog performs much better when we haven’t practiced in a while. The first run after a long break is always her best.
Laura says
Great post and I agree with Robin Jackson and Erin completely. I do believe that our dogs distuingish between training and work, though, at least for my dogs and how they’re trained, I’m not sure that they don’t just think I’m a trainer who is blind and who they live with. We go through some of the same situations the trainers put them through, especially traffic training and so I think they think it’s similar to training, but I do know they understand it’s more responsibility. My first, Marlin, took the responsibility in stride, just happily and confidently working with me until he was too sick to do so. Medical retirements suck. There aren’t any other words for that, they are just crappy and unfair to both handler and dog.
My second guide, Torpedo, worked fine under the responsibility when he was a young dog, but as he aged, his stress and anxiety over working and the responsibility for me, got to him. At 8, he let me know, he couldn’t do it anymore and now he is much happier as a retired dog. As Erin said in her post above, some dogs rise to the task, some fall apart, and yes, I do think it is because they know it’s actual, life-and-death work, not time with a trainer and then back to the kennel.
I agree as well, that it is because of us. I think it’s in our body language, whether or not we’re relaxed or tense. I know, when we’re at a busy street crossing, like the one right outside my office, I’m much more focused on the traffic and so is Seamus. I correct him more if he’s sniffy by the curb than if we were just on a walk down a quiet street. I also praise him more when we’re working, both with food and verbally, so he knows he’s doing a good job. Also, I’ve developed an inadvertent cue when we’re working. I’ll often talk to seamus as we’re getting ready in the morning. Saying things like, “Do you want to go to work with Mom? Working is fun. Do you like to work?” Now, when I say the word Working, his ears go up and he comes over to me, tail wagging. I use a different word for just a walk, “Walkees,” and although he is excited to work, he is thrilled for a walk. I think because a walkee means more fun and work means, well, work. I’m sure we enjoy our jobs, just like our dogs do, but I certainly look more forward to a night out with a friend rather than a day at the office.
Ok, I’ve written a novel, but yes, I do think the dogs know and can tell the difference between training and actual work and I think it has to do with our behavior. Good post and for the rest of the folks living here in these USA, have a great Thanks Giving.
em says
I’m so interested in what everyone has to say about this topic.
Of my two dogs, I have one, Sandy, who does great in “practice” situations and may be slightly more apt (though still not very- she’s a worker bee to the core) to get distracted and require a repeated cue or sharper tone “in the field”. The same dog will cheerfully respond to a tone outside off-leash that would CRUSH her indoors.
My other dog, Otis, is all but flawless in “real” situations, but absolutely hates practice or pretend scenarios- he has been so consistent about balking, half-completing tasks, or offering random behaviors that I’ve all but given up this type of training for fear I’ll corrupt his performance out in the field. Both of my dogs are pets only, not performance or working animals, but they do negotiate off-leash hikes every day that require some pretty advanced co-operation with me. I see this kind of “on” behavior in high-challenge situations as well (i.e. leashed walking in a big city or through festival grounds).
I think it’s a combination of context and sensitivity, but Otis absolutely does learn and perform much, much better in “real” situations. He’s extremely intuitive, and great at figuring out how best to co-operate to accomplish a goal. He also responds much better to situations where not all of my critical, focused attention is focused on HIM, but partly on the obstacle or goal we need to address.
I don’t know whether I’d say Sandy does better in the field, but she IS better off leash, if that makes sense. She’s more confident, happier, more emotionally resilient. She, too, feels the difference even if she doesn’t thrive on it to quite the same degree that self-directed Otis does. She LOVES to be the center of my focused attention and will fall all over herself to perform when we’re at home. Perhaps it’s just my personal bias talking, but much as I enjoy that eagerness about Sandy, I feel closer to her when we’re out on our hikes and she’s only giving me half her attention. I, fancifully perhaps, feel like I’m working with her true self in that context, where she’s thinking for herself and her personality doesn’t get so submerged beneath her desire to act out my wishes.
Nic1 says
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-30194531
Had to share this amazing story – not really relevant to the blog discussion but still fascinating to see the determination of this dog once he had bonded with the team.
chloe says
First, thank you for the great pictures. I love the one of Maggie!! If those two were part of a holiday pack on your website I would buy…Just saying 🙂
My BC: we never worked sheep. But I can tell you of one very different behavior when she competed in Agility. Baruch is very reactive towards young children jumping running yelling etc but she wouldn’t even look at them when we were on the start line or when we were running. She would if we were training.
My Airedale: She was used as a guard dog and could not be distracted by food or cat or anything when I asked her to “check it out” for real vs a training exercise.
I do think that dogs are extremely sensitive to every movement to changes in our moods feelings etc and therefore I believe they can tell by our energy what is what. (willing to be wrong, will keep reading and educating myself)
Sasha says
Maybe there are two parts to the answer? One part is complete acquisition of the new behavior and confidence development and the other may be a reinforcement derived from achieving a goal. The goal maybe as simple as solving a food puzzle to obtain a treat or in Willie’ case sorting sheep to get to the next job.
I wonder if work can happen during training also. When training progressively more complex difficult behaviors, the previously trained behaviors become the ‘work’ and the learning the new behavior is the ‘training’. I think of myself taking math classes throughout my education and I was never comfortable with the new material until I was using it routinely as a tool for the more progressively difficult material. I never became comfortable with algebra until I used it for trig.
I think of the breaking down of new behaviors into trainable modules where folks train each component separately. When training the individual components each at one time and loosening criteria for other components of the behavior, let’s say speed vs precision, I wonder if Willie’s confidence when facing the sheep is a component of the behavior that’s let slide (by you or him or both) when focusing on other subsets of the behavior. I suspect you don’t ask for partially trained behaviors during real work. 🙂
Measuring satisfaction in an accomplished job I believe has been quantified in humans, just don’t know if it’s been done in other species. That may be the experiment that answers the question I think you’re ultimately asking.
RC says
I’m a cube rat suburbanite and my three dogs don’t “work” but i can see a big difference in them from one scene to the next. My 1.5 year old catahoula (a working breed, no less) has no real interest in playing fetch. It’s a boring monotonous waste of time for her to chase a thing, bring it back, chase a thing… BUT if you throw FOUR different toys and tell her specifically which one toy she has to find and retrieve – she prances. She has a light in her eye. Her tail wags. She enjoys the challenge. Even more so if i throw two things, tell her which i want and when she runs off to find that one thing – i throw two more things in the opposite direction. She doesn’t actually SEE the thing being thrown, which makes it a greater challenge to find it.
Perhaps working dogs know the difference between a rehearsal (“mom, the sheep are right where they’re supposed to be and there is no REASON to move them”) compared to a job that commands their help. (“you’re right, that sheep needs immediate medical assistance, i’m on the job, mom!”)
Nate says
This post immediately brought to mind the discussion you had a few weeks ago on are dogs consciously aware…For the dog to know the difference in the situations makes me say yes the dog is aware…I am willing to also go on a limb and say no matter how calm you are in directive the dog being a master in your nuance can sense some difference in the energy and tone.
Robin Jackson says
I think that Chloe’s point about the handler’s “energy” is very similar to the points made by Erin and Laura and HFR that dogs are great about making distinctions between how the handler acts in different situation.
I’ve been told this is one reason that there are professional handlers available for hire for dogs who show in big events like Westminster. The owner, even if they’ve done much of the dog’s training, isn’t always the best person to show the dog.
I think we’ve all heard some variation on the adage that “emotions travel down the leash.” That applies to situations without leashes, too!
Trisha’s initial point that in a working situation like the one with Willie and the lambs, you can’t just call it a day and break off if things aren’t going well, has to have an impact on how the handler works the dog. And most dogs will pick up on that.
But I do think there’s more to it than that for some dogs, I’ve known many border collies who had absolutely no interest in anything that wasn’t “real.” If you wanted to train those dogs to Down, they did way better if there were sheep, or at least chickens, in a pen nearby. Our own pet dog, Tulip, has almost no interest in training sessions held indoors. It’s the exact opposite of the advice we usually get about working in a low distraction environment. She gets unutterably bored with indoor training sessions. I think she literally sees no point to them.
But take her out in the yard where there are crows, squirrels, and an occasional deer or even coyote going by and suddenly she goes into laser focus mode. The importance of everything is magnified for her. And she’s willing to focus on ME, even if we’re just doing Target or Down or Sit, because she’s put herself into “work” mode.
Obviously that’s not true for all dogs. Some bc’s absolutely lose their minds the first time they’re near sheep. But there are also a fair number like Tulip, who see the sheep and gather all their energy into themselves, slowing down rather than speeding up, and prepare themselves for Something Important.
So I suspect, as usual, the answer will be “it depends.” 🙂 We can help our dogs and ourselves a lot by training way past the point when we think the dog “knows” something. By letting them get comfortable with all the many different aspects of a situation, including our own changes in mood and manner.
But even so, just like people, there will be some dogs who can’t handle the pressure and some dogs who thrive on it. And some who are bored to tears by anything except real work.
Liz Shaw says
So interesting. I am sure my border collie knows the difference between work and practice – partially because my behavior changes, partially because the routine is probably different. I have never been able to “drill” him before he gets frustrated. If we do something more than a couple of times he really does look at me “what is the point?” Your chute story amused me because Jura is quite good at putting them down the chute. One day, I kept missing one of the ones that I wanted separated and we had to push them down 4 times since I was doing a double sort. On the 4th round he just hung back. It seems as if he hates having to repeat himself – which is why he doesn’t seem to “enjoy” practice the way he does other things. It was real work but he had done it correctly 3 times. it was I who needed to get with the program. 🙂 After he had beeen charged by an unfamiliar ewe when he was two, he had a hard time being brave again and was reluctant to work the sheep. Practice was difficult and he was very afraid to drive the sheep since that was the situation where the ewe had charged him . One day, some of them spooked, got out and were wandering around the woods near dusk. I was almost afraid to send him, fearing that it would be too scary for him. Off he went, like a workaday dog and returned with the prodigal sheep. It was real work. Took him a couple of minutes to do what might have taken me hours. He didn’t for a moment hesitate. He must have sensed my urgency and it overrode the hesitance he had been having. After that moment, I figured out that the way to rebuild his confidence enough to work on some of his skills was to make sure that we weren’t drilling and that we worked the skills into everyday chores even if it meant taking a ridiculously long route to the pasture.
Erin says
Wondering if there may be a similarity here to the idea of social facilitation. Humans perform better on well practiced tasks in the presence of an audience, but perform worse on tasks they don’t know well. When our dogs work we take on more of an audience role and when we train we take on more of a teacher role. In the working instance, we watch how our dogs do and wait longer to intervene, expecting them to perform as we have trained them. In a training situation, we would intervene early and help. Like the idea of social facilitation in humans, our role as an audience for our dogs may help or hurt thier performance.
Ivan Stewart says
Dogs do understand the difference between ‘training’ and ‘work’. Primarily, during training sessions a dogs brain pays slightly more attention to the handler, rather during actual work they are more focused on task and outcome.
With working dogs, it is important to have the help of trained and experienced multi-generational dogs – using allelomimetic behavior is the fastest way for young herding dogs to learn their craft.
The slowest process is the handler and the dog trying to train each other, as you soon discovered.
Trisha says
Interesting comment Ivan. You are the first person I’ve ever heard suggest that dogs learn to work sheep by watching others. Multiple experts suggest that dogs left to their own devices while another dog works learn little but bad habits. The dogs I’ve seen in that context (admittedly rare, see first comment) have begun chasing rather than herding. They tend to focus their attention on the other dog rather than working as a team with the handler. Hummm, different contexts?
Ivan Stewart says
I think you misunderstood – Let me clarify, obviously dogs do not learn ONLY by watching other dogs, thats silly – however the process is speeded up by having young dogs work with experienced dogs. This is crucial.
I spent the early part of my life working 1500 head of black-face sheep in the hills of Northern Ireland on our family farm – We always had older dogs ‘teaching’ younger dogs.
There are so many parts that need to be in play before you set a young dog onto stock, not the least of which is a bonded, deferential relationship with the handler based on trust (with no use of positive punishers).
That young dog will always progress faster under the gentle tutelage of an capable handler working in the company of older more experienced dogs.
Patricia Savage says
Just to throw this out, when Loki was a puppy he was always in the back of the truck and listened to the adults work in Schutzhund. On a whim, while sitting on the deck, I asked him to Revere. He pelted off the deck barking like crazy and patroled the perimeter of the yard barking the entire time. He did not know the specifics of the command, but having heard the adults he knew that it meant barking and possibly something having to do with alarm.
Robin Jackson says
Both Pat Miller and Karen Pryor originally believed dogs did not learn by imitation, but now have come to the conclusion that at least some dogs do in some circumstances.
Miller had a good article in WHOLE DOG JOURNAL summarising some research studies, including work by Ken Ramirez, and detailing her own journey from skepticism to acknowledgement:
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/16_10/features/training-dog-imitation_20841-1.html
Karen Pryor has written several blog articles on canine learning by observation over the years. She’s found her own poodles clearly learn from observation, so much so that she’s incorporated it in some training protocols. (Other poodle owners have reported similar results.)
She did an anecdotal survey of her readers, getting about 200 reports, and found that clearly some dogs did, some dogs didn’t, and that those who did appeared to learn by observation throughout their lives. She also found some really significant breed differences.
With dolphins, she had personal experience of a situation in which two dolphins were inadvertently switched during a performance, and each made a decent effort at doing the other’s performance, even though they’d never been trained for it.
But she hadn’t expected to see the same thing in dogs until, well, she did.
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/230
However, I have often heard it said among working family farmers that if you let an older dog teach a young one, the juvenile will mind the older dog and not the human handler. But it was pretty common practice to take a juvenile out and let them just watch a working team, on the assumption that they would learn something. I know sometimes there was also a handler waiting with the juvenile, I honestly don’t remember if that was always true.
FWIW,
Robin J.
Marjorie says
I don’t know much about dogs and even less about sheep. My guess would be that dogs pick up on our intention and feed off that energy. When there is a goal/work that need to be achieved I believe we give off a more focused energy that drives/pushes us through the task. I think this energy is different than when we “practice” because that energy tends to be more focused on technique.
Rebecca Rice says
First, I don’t have working dogs, so I can’t comment on that aspect. But I do know that my dogs are different in different situations, and that little Pixie, in particular, seems very sensitive to mood.
Here’s some examples: I was recently watching a YouTube video about why women are uncomfortable about getting help from strange men. A woman’s car breaks down, 4 men pull up to help her, she winds up getting a ride back to her place with them. When she is looking at and talking to the men, the video is bright and the music is cheery and upbeat. When she is not looking at them, the video is dark and the music is sinister and threatening. The fascinating thing to me was that Pixie was in the room with me, and started alarm barking, but stopped every time the video changed to the “bright and cheery”, and started back up when it was “dark and sinister”. She wasn’t looking at the video… she seemed oriented to the window in the room, actually, which makes me wonder if she was picking up on my emotions about the video. Or was there something else going on entirely?
The other thing I notice is that Pixie really hates grass. I think that she was an apartment dog, and just hasn’t had a lot of exposure to it during those formative times. For whatever reason, she picks her way over a well-manicured yard the way that most of us do when walking in parking lots littered with broken glass… very gingerly, and will often hold up a back foot and hop three legged. (And yes, I have had her checked out medically… she did have luxating patellas, but they have been fixed, so I think this is just a learned behavior at this point.) However, if there is something in the yard, particularly a bird, she will fly across the yard and chase it out, and then trot along the perimeter with the prettiest action you could ever see, looking just so pleased with herself. Truly, she is gorgeous… head up, ears up, little tail nub up, marching along with a beautiful stride. If I call her back inside, and then let her out again, she will be back to the “ooh… it’s grass, can’t walk on that!” routine. So, something goes on in her mind when she is doing what she sees as her job, as opposed to just goofing off. Oh, and lure coursing! Watching her course a lure, you wouldn’t think she ever had a problem with grass.
And, of course, I do wonder if there is a breed component to this. My greyhound is much more easily distracted than my rat terrier, but I hear that is pretty common with sighthounds. And the rattie can focus in with laser intensity when doing her “job” (which she seems to interpret as keeping my yard safe from birds and lizards), but will blow me off when I point out something to her like a squirrel on the fence, which I think she considers out of her jurisdiction.
Margaret McLaughlin says
@ Robin Jackson–
Purely anecdotal, but the trainer I worked with for many years told me how her Border Terrier learned Utility “go-outs” at the age of 5 months by observing & imitating her student’s Welsh Terrier who was learning the Directed Jumping exercise. They used the ‘blind retrieve method’, with small dowel rods as the retrieve object.
You always link to the most interesting stuff:)
Pamela says
This article made me think about many dogs I know and I’m enjoying reading all the comments.
Side note: I attended a seminar held at UBC in British Columbia. I believe that part of Ken Ramirez’ research involves mimicry. http://www.kenramireztraining.com
Miriam Rose says
I’ve worked detection dogs for many years, and in my observation my K-9 partners absolutely know the difference between training and work. Of course, that may be explained by the difference in the feeling state at the human end of the leash – I don’t know.
An aphorism I found in a very old field training book for dogs has stuck with me for ages. The author wrote “The work makes the dog!” and that has been true for my XDD and NDD partners. Thank you for the interesting topic of discussion.
liz says
Not to “bury the lead” either, but I’m also in love with my training journal. Great advice! In the last few years, mine has changed form considerably to include daily stories or notes of dog-gratitude. I started with separate logs for medical and training, and made happy notes for successes along the way. Having combined everything together now, with an increased focus on the everyday things I might otherwise take for granted, I can’t imagine life without it.
Thanks to all for the many thought-provoking, interesting discussions.
Josh W says
Very interesting… especially comments by folks using/training guide dogs and some “rising to the occasion” and others not.
Regarding Ivan’s comments, Ben O. Williams would say basically the same thing about training his brittany’s – build trust with the young dog and have it run with more experienced dogs to learn the finer points of hunting birds.
Kim Laird says
Our focus & intensity changes, so I’ll bet our dogs sense that and respond accordingly. Maybe the lower level of emphasis causes Willie to hesistate because you’re not as emphatic?
diane says
Very interesting to read the comment regarding Karen Pryor and her poodles. I will have to read more on this. My dog is part poodle and I take him to refresher obedience classes now and then. I have no doubt he performs better if he can watch the other dogs perform first, such as a down on recall. If he is first in line to perform, he still does it but I often note some hesitancy, especially if the class is a bit chaotic. (This may not be saying much for my handling skills…clearer signals may be in order!) But throughout all his classes, he watches what is going on. In agility he was very frightened of the dog walk and wouldn’t take it. After of few classes watching the other dogs, he walked up to it and started walking across by himself…I was across the room helping with set up when I noticed, and needed to run over with lots of reinforcing treats.
Hertha James says
A friend sent me this link. I work with horses rather than dogs at the moment, but it is an interesting question here too.
When I get out the camera and ‘work’ to film some particular exercise (I make short ‘Training with Positive Reinforcement’ clips for horses), my horse often has a different demeanor compared to when we’re just warming up or down or playing with a variety of activities to keep her moving and interested. My impression is that I am acting more ‘business like’ and that is what she recognizes.
As to animals learning by observing, I think they definitely do. After all, in the wild, the youngsters learn to hunt mostly by imitating their elders. When I teach one horse something new, the one that was watching and waiting his turn often seemed to be ‘a step ahead’ of the first horse when it came to understanding the new task.
Terrasita Cuffie says
Hi,
From a herding perspective, I would say wholeheartedly that dogs know the difference between training/trialing and real work. I have had several that demonstrate this. When we are doing “chores,” we partner in the work. Dogs understand jobs and there is purpose to the work. We as handlers also rely on the dogs in this context and the dogs know it. I don’t see it as “relaxing the standards.” In training, the emphasis is on the handler controlling and directing the dogs. The more we emphasize controlling the dogs, the more the dog interprets that he doesn’t have permission to control the stock. The dog will reduce his pressure and this can result in the stock taking advantage and even becoming more resistant to the dog’s control. Dogs that are committed to the job will adjust themselves to facilitate accomplishing the task. The more biddable the dog, the more he will give up control of the situation to the handler if the handler communicates dissatisfaction.