There was quite the dust up on Twitter last week about a blog in Psychology Today by Nathan Lents, titled Dogs Apologize Better Than Some Humans. Skipping the observation that humans have a lot more to apologize for than dogs do, (clown horror movies come to mind), Lents addresses the “guilty look” of dogs and wolves. He argues that what people often interpret as a “guilty look” in dogs is the equivalent of an apology. He says:
“A dog that bites too hard is punished by temporary shunning. They are removed from the social unit and ignored for a time. In order to be reintroduced, the offending wolf must approach with an apology bow and be re-admitted into the group.”
There’s more. The quote that got him in the hottest of water was this: “In a sense, an apology is indeed an expression of submission. ‘I was wrong; you were right.’ Nothing could be more submissive than that,” he said.
“No! Nope! Nopers!” said canine researcher and Scientific American blogger, Julie Hecht. “The dog’s supposed ‘guilty look’ does not translate to ‘I was wrong; you were right.’ ” I agree completely with Julie. “I was wrong” is not the same as a gesture of appeasement.
Here’s the logic of my argument, from my favorite world beyond that of dogs and flowers–food. Imagine you’re in a restaurant. The waitress is clearly busy and a bit harassed. You are ordering a BLT sandwich, but want sweet potato fries instead of regular ones. So you cock your head, crumple your eyebrows while looking chagrined and say “I know you’re busy, but could I have the sweet potato fries instead of the plain ones?” I’d argue that you are expressing appeasement, but not saying in any way that you were “wrong.” You are trying to prevent an angry outburst from someone you know might produce one, and at the same time you are trying to get what you want. But you’re not saying, “I’m wrong”. You’re just protecting yourself while attempting to influence the behavior of another in a context of potential conflict.
This is more than a theoretical conversation, because words matter to us humans, and dog owners love to accuse their dog of being “guilty” when the dog is only offering appeasement. The distinction is important, because “my dog looks guilty” often is translated into “I know he knows better” and therefore should be punished.
This is not a new issue. I’ve written about “dogs and guilt” previously in “Not Guilty, As Charged”. In 2011 I reported the results of surveys done by me and researcher Morris on “What Emotions You Think You Share with Your Dog.” (I think you’ll find the results fascinating–74% of the general public thought dogs could be guilty, while only 23% of blog-reader responders did. The results were about opposite for the emotion of disgust, which is believed to be the most primitive of all emotions.) Horowitz and Hecht have done some great research illustrating that dogs get what people call a “guilty look” on their face when they did nothing wrong, know that they did nothing wrong, but are facing an owner who thinks they did. Julie put together this brilliant video illustrating how very wrong we are when we assume that appeasement behavior means “I’m sorry, I was wrong.”
In summary, sorry to say, Nathan Lents, but I think it is wrong to say that dogs are saying “I’m wrong” when they are being appeasing. Don’t feel guilty–it’s a mistake that a lot of people make. (But we all do need to think carefully about our word choice in the future, if you would.) Actually, there is another issue here that could be explored: Lents’ argument that “nothing is more submissive than an apology”. Hmmm… if you are using “dominance” and “submission” the way animal behavior researchers have used it for decades, submission is correctly described as an appeasement behavior, but that’s not the same as an apology either. Right? Oh my, words do get us in a bit of a mess sometimes.
Your thoughts? I’m all ears. No apologies.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: Perfect weather, perfect weekend. On Friday Maggie got to go on a long walk in the woods for the first time in three months. Happy, happy dog. And she got to work sheep for five minutes on Saturday, even better. Stopping at five minutes was ridiculously difficult, but we managed. I rested her yesterday, but will work her again today. She’s definitely regressed in terms of working sheep. She made three beginner errors on Saturday, (stopped short on her outrun, didn’t cover the sheep on the fetch, over flanked on the drive), but fixed the first two on her second run. . . and then I had to quit. Good though to be working again, even if just for a miniscule period of time.
I worked in the garden for five hours straight on Sunday, along with my hardy helpers, Heather P and Christy B. (Ask me how my joints feel. No, don’t.) The tulips below are new, and were loving the sun. You can see the wild plum trees beginning to flower in the background. And see the pointy, small tulip buds at the bottom of the frame? I have no idea what they will look like, don’t remember variety what I chose there. Can’t wait to see them.
Here’s Polly enjoying the sun beside the day lily garden behind the rock wall. It’s the only place on the farm so far that is all weeded and mulched, thanks to my own efforts and those of my stalwart garden elves, Heather and Christy. It takes a village. (Polly and Nellie, by the way, say “thank you for the new, nicely prepared cat box.” Sigh.)
Next week I’ll write about Green Chimneys and its conference on Human Animal Interactions. I’ll be giving a talk on Saturday titled “Helping the Helper: Preventing Stress and Discomfort in Service and Assistance Dogs.” More importantly, be learning from all the other great speakers. Hope you have a great week.
Elizabeth says
The Denver video is so painful to watch. I know from experience that my dogs are reacting to my tone of voice. If I’m abrupt with them because I’m feeling stressed (I’m human…) they will show appeasement behaviour even though they have clearly done nothing wrong.
The idea that an apology is the ultimate submission is also very bizarre. I thought one apologized for behaviour one regretted for one of a variety of reasons. Am I too Canadian??
Jan says
Totally agree. All those dog shaming videos make me cringe. I really cringe when the owners keep yelling “LOOK AT ME!” I worry about “deprogramming” the millions of kids who have grown up watching these videos.
Celia Kerr says
Two of my dogs had this rule or ritual whereby if larger male dog was over exuberant in his play and smaller female yelped in indignation, he then offered his neck to her and she administered 3 quick bites while he remained still. I am not sure whose idea it was but we used to call it the free 3 bites rule. Was he offering appeasement so the game would continue , did he think he had done wrong, was he apologizing ? She clearly thought he had committed an offence and that she was entitled to administer a rebuke . As soon as the 3 bites had been issued the game would continue happily.
Peter says
The part I can’t explain is why my dog gives me that “look” when I first walk in the door, not knowing anything about how his time alone was. If he is his usual happy self, turning in circles and running to get his Kong toy, great. If he gives me the “look” I know I have to go search for what he chewed up or knocked over and broke. The “look” can’t be a response to me, I just walked in the door.
Stacy Silloway says
I’m still not 100% convinced. Yesterday I came home and let my dogs out as usual. Spring is here now, and the deep snow is gone, and the yard was full of chickens. So, MY error was the gate between the chicken yard and the dog yard was open. I have worked long and hard with my easily stimulated shepherd, and it looks like we will back up, and work on this some more. Before I could get some sunflower seeds for the chickens and my egg gathering basket, my shepherd scratches at the door and zips past and goes to his rug and gives my the classic “guilty look”. This is totally out of our normal routine of us going out to see the chickens together. I looked outside, and sure enough, there was a young red rooster laying on the ground. (He ended up being injured and not dead.) I did plenty of exclaiming, although less directed at him because he did stop and come in on his own. It is really hard not to believe he wasn’t feeling “guilty” since his reaction came before I discovered what he had done! I think I should be a little proud of him even for removing himself from a situation. Well, back to work on the leash and some down/stays and walking slowly for a while. If this is not him expressing “I messed up” I can’t imagine what else it could be.
LisaW says
I remember once I was mad at my dog for stealing all the tomatoes out of the garden. She would tip toe in and gently pluck the just-ripened-red-tomato off the vine (apparently she knew the green stems were bad for her). I caught her one day and held up the red orb in front of her nose and said, “Ester, what are you doing? Stop eating our tomatoes.” (Stern, irritated inflection.) She looked at me and chomped down on the tomato and my hand. Appeasement? Hardly. I don’t remember any of our dogs having that look of “please don’t retaliate.” I’ve seen it dog to dog but not dog to person.
Love the flowers, we had two very late-season snow storms and are really behind in our spring blooms.
Ravana says
I have to say Gidget gives the thieving human a real, “You bastard!” look while at the same time she is trying to appease her mom.
Christina says
The video was terrific. I do think the dog was entirely clear who was wrong and gave a most accusing look. Two of my dogs would already be hiding if I came home to a raided garbage can, etc. As soon as they heard my key in the door they would assume the “I lost control and I’m regretting it now that you’re home” position. The only punishment they would receive would be my displeasure and they were not trying to avoid anything other than that. So, while they were not saying they were “wrong”, they definitely knew that they had engaged in behaviour – no doubt blissful at the time – which was against my rules which they probably thought were ridiculous. After all, what is the point of keeping garbage if you cannot eat it! It is also true that they would act in the same way if wrongly accused. They want to appease no matter but they absolutely knew, before being found out, that they had done something “wrong” which is not the same as saying I was right to have such nonsensical rules.
Christina says
One more thing I just remembered. Their expression was different when they were wrongly accused than it was when they had actually done something. When wrongly accused, their appeasing gesture was more halfhearted, just going through the motions and with a tinge of something not unlike resentment. Like the dog in the video, actually, which is what reminded me of it. When they had actually done something it was much more abject.
lee says
So thankful for your blog post about this!
“This is more than a theoretical conversation, because words matter to us humans, and dog owners love to accuse their dog of being “guilty” when the dog is only offering appeasement. The distinction is important, because “my dog looks guilty” often is translated into “I know he knows better” and therefore should be punished.”
My thoughts exactly, but your words are always perfect!
I’m dismayed by so much “science” (I call it BS…bad science) that has the ability to undermine years (decades) of trying to educate dog owners that dogs have dog brains, not human brains. They don’t understand English (or other languages, other than, of course, the particular words we teach them), and they don’t have a sense of morality. To say that they do does a disservice to dogs and often leads them to punishment or worse, execution (when they bite because “they should know not to bite my child!”)
Thank you for joining twitter!
Enjoy your time off!
Jill Sherman says
Funny timing. I have a senior Aussie, with whom I’ve had to learn to play carefully, because he’s losing his eyesight, and if your hand happens to be attached to the toy, it can hurt : ) Doesn’t happen often, but if there’s an oops, he normally will instantly suck up with an adorable facial expression screaming “sorry, I didn’t mean that!” (it looks nothing like those supposedly “guilty” dogs, regret is a different emotion – I swear he actually mimics our “I’m so sorry!” expression). I then just reassure him (forgiveness?), we continue to play, and it’s forgotten. But the other day, as I was protecting my toy hand, he saw my other hand flapping around, and somehow decided that was the toy. OUCH. And we got into quite the spat because he actually had no idea that he bit me, and was not “apologizing.” He was irritated with ME for my reaction – mainly a lot of noise and ending playtime prematurely – he knew I was upset, but seemed to think it was unjust… With neither one of us apologizing, it took bit longer to “normalize” (LOL, we were fine the next morning). So – quite apart from my lesson that his vision has gotten worse and I have to change the way I play with him – I might have just anthropomorphized the legal constructs of “intent” and “diminished capacity” in my relationship with my dog. I’m OK with that – it seems “just.”
Monika & Sam says
That video was heartbreaking to watch. It struck me as downright cruel and confusing for the poor dog. Humans are so arrogant by ascribing human-like responses to animals. Ugh.
Jan says
Oh!! I’m sooo interested in your talk about “Helping the Helper: Preventing Stress and Discomfort in Service and Assistance Dogs.” . . . . . I’m just now starting to go out with my service dog in training who’s working beautifully and enjoying his new role, but this topic just didn’t occur to me other than the normal, taking care of and not ignoring my dog’s needs in general. Any way I can get more information?
Diane M says
This is a fascinating topic. My husband and I had a long conversation over dinner discussing canine emotions. We agree that, although, canines are not capable of feeling full blown guilt, we wonder if they have a sense of “failing the pack”, which can result in a momentary feeling of embarrassment? We dubbed it “prot0-guilt.” Guilt requires an ability to brood over past mistakes, which doesn’t seem likely in dogs. In a highly social species like canines, however, a momentary sense of “goofing up”, and feeling bad about it, doesn’t seem like a huge stretch. A dog’s sense of “goofing up” doesn’t usually match their owners, however, and has nothing to do with chewing up the living room or peeing on the carpet!
My husband was wondering if there is an evolutionary link between embarrassment and guilt. Does guilt branch from embarrassment?
Love your pictures. Polly looks so content sitting in the spring sunshine. I’m sure she’s not contemplating her new litter box….
lee says
I intended to ask if you (and/or any commenters) would elaborate on the dog’s brain vs the human brain. What part do they not possess that would give them ability to feel guilt and have a sense of morality and work ethic? (I have your books, but they’re packed in boxes for a move.)
Other musings from the article:
Dr. Lent says, “The guilty look that dogs give is also called the “apology bow” and has been studied extensively in wolves by animal behaviorists including Marc Bekoff.”
Who calls it an apology bow? Dr. Lent and…..?
Dr. Beckoff’s op-ed re: guilty looks/feelings:
http://www.livescience.com/44636-does-your-dog-have-any-shame.html
Dr. Bekoff is an evolutionary biologist. Does that make him a behaviorist? Who are the other behaviorists?
It’s interesting that Dr. Lents gave no reply (tweet) when academic resources were requested yet asked for evidence when someone tweeted to him that dogs don’t feel guilt.
This is yet another “story” being disseminated across the internet, from multiple sources, that needs to be fully challenged for the sake of dogs everywhere. Because as you said “the distinction is important because “my dog looks guilty” often is translated into “I know he knows better” and therefore should be punished.”
And here’s what Dr. Bradshaw said when a fMRI study declared dogs comprehend words:
Is such collusion harmless? I suggest not. Dog owners who have read any of the extensive newspaper reports of this study…will have found support for their already entrenched view that their dogs understand “every word they say.” They may then feel more justified in chastising their dog the next time he or she is “disobedient” – which will have come about not because the dog wilfully acted against their instructions (which is how they will see it), but because they had used “words” – sounds – that meant little to the dog. The well-being of pet dogs depends on their owners understanding what they are capable of, and equally, when our expectations of them are too high.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pets-and-their-people/201609/lexical-processing-dogs
Have you reviewed Dr. Bradshaw’s “In Defense of Dogs?”
Many thanks!
lee
Trisha says
To Celia: Amazing story re “three free bites!” I would give a limb to know what was in your dog’s mind! But it does raise an important issue, which I didn’t cover in the blog as much as I’d like (ran out of time). Dogs may not be guilty in the sense that we use it, but I do think there is something much more nuanced going on here. Surely dogs do have some sense of “expected behavior” and not expected. Or even something closer to “accepted behavior” and not accepted. Parsing that out is a fascinating issue, yes?
banjokatt says
I think Denver’s expression on his face gives new meaning to that phrase “hang dog” look. My two Shih Tzus and my two sons’ German Shepherd have never been able to look anywhere as guilty as poor Denver.
Trisha says
To the folks who wonder why their dog looks “guilty” when they come home and they haven’t seen anything wrong: All that has to happen is the confluence of two events–chewed cushion in living room and owner entering the door. Dog’s memories are perfectly capable of putting those things together, so a dog can be responding to you as you enter even though you haven’t said a thing. Make sense?
Trisha says
To lee: Good question about who uses “apology bow.” I actually tried to find a place where Bekoff had used it, but failed in the time I had available. And I appreciate the link to Bekoff’s article (I doubt he’d call himself a behaviorist, although certainly an expert in behavior); it raises some important points. As I said in an earlier comment, I do think this issue has nuance that we haven’t sorted out yet.
To Jan re Helping the Helper: Here’s an interesting article that you might enjoy reading: http://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/7/2/7/htm, a review of research on welfare in assistance/service animals.
Trisha says
Last quick comment: Embarrassment related to guilt? Umm, good question! I’m going to have to ponder that for awhile. Quick embarrassed animal story: I swear I saw a young Arab stallion blush after tripping himself and falling while running around a large pen in front of a group of mares. All of the human observers interpreted his running as “showing off,” altho, of course, we were just speculating. When he picked himself up from the dirt, his white face was literally pink. (He was mostly white, and all white on his face.) Probably the blood just rushed to his head, yes? But still, we howled with laughter because it looked like he was blushing. There, I’ve just lost all scientific credibility I’ve ever had….
Vicki in Michigan says
I am pretty sure dogs have a sense of morality. But it’s a dog sense of morality, not a human one. Which doesn’t mean they don’t overlap a bit. Haven’t I read a study where dogs were clearly unhappy if one dog got treats and the other didn’t? This sounds like recognition of something we would call “fairness.”
Even when they are clear that we don’t want them to do something, and know we will be unhappy when we discover they’ve done it, it’s not clear at all that they thing doing it is wrong.
We had a dog who loved to pick up pears in the yard and shred them. We didn’t have a problem with this behavior — unless she brought the pear in the house and shredded it inside. She knew we didn’t want her to shred pears in the house, so she would carry them entirely inside her mouth. And slink. She never slinked unless she had a pear. If we saw her slinking up to the door, we’d say “Spot! Leave it!” We interpreted her expression after that as “Darnit — foiled again. How do they *know*?????”
🙂
Jenny H says
Hmmmm. I don’t think we humans are very different at all from dogs.
Kids learn very, very quickly to “Say Sorry”. Easy peasy, but do the same thing again, minute later. (Like running around on the wet tiles around the swimming pool, or swearing in the presence of their devout Christian Uncle, raid the pantry for the chocolate biscuits, not do their homework, etc, etc.
I used to tell them, I do not want an ‘apology’ (sorry). I want you to promise to not do it again.
It SHOULD be easier with kids as we CAN explain to them why we don’t want them doing whatever — you might slip and crack your head open, your Uncle gets very upset when you swear, those biscuits were bought for the visitors we are expecting tomorrow. the teacher sets homework to help you learn — but it isn’t.
Kids and dogs (and American Presidents) all think the sin is being caught.
Margo says
I have to say that the more I learn, the more dogs I watch in videos, the more comparisons in real life and the more I focus on my own Bearded Collie: the more I ABSOLUTELY believe that we underestimate many of our canine companions.
When I look at the 2 dogs, I see:
1-one dog who knows he did something that he did, for whatever reason. But the one thing he did not do, was run away. Or fight back. He listened to the of energy, exposed his teeth without moving forward or backward, and squinted with his ears down as if to block the noise, as well as the invasion into his personal space.
2-another dog, incidentally a bitch, who was set up and victimized. The look on her face was one of expectation and then a fearful whale eye. A complete loss of control and yes, confusion is real. And I believe this would be a situation where a dog could move to bite.
So we talking about overt or observed behavioral reactions and responses to that of being a canine left in 2 different conditions in which each of the dogs failed. More than that, 1 real, 1 contrived. We are also looking at 2 sexes and I am not hearing anything from the canine point of view, . I will begin with after the first few invasions into personal space of the dogs, I would say they exhibited excellent self control. Secondly, I firmly believe that the what we observe here is a learned helplessness. They have no way out and no words. Guilt? NO WAY. Self preservation in learned helplessness? Definitely.
Humans behaving badly? Everyone trying to jump on the bandwagon. My biggest complaint is that too many people bastardize the truth to suit their social need ( Good morning america and the geniuses on the View.
Thank You to everyone for all the research done up until now. I am excited for every new way we find to communicate with our canine partners. I pray all studies from now on be conducted based on benevolent communication eliciting the most beneficial adaptive behavior (a little too idealistic, I know). This is why I abandoned my old life to this one.
However, I will make Apple rich if I can’t stop throwing the mouse.
Margo says
BTW, I tried to correct grammar ?but my mouse kept swiping? and I lost the comment?. Someday? I will hire a scribe✍️ to do my typing ? while I dictate my thoughts?. So embarrassing ?. And this is the best I could do with the Emojis available to me at this time??….Get my drift? ?♀️ ???
HFR says
One thing that isn’t mentioned is fear. These dogs look scared to me. Fearful that they are in for some kind of punishment, which hopefully is just shunning and not anything worse. With Denver she may be scared of that tone of voice and is submissive because she feels threatened.
If your dog can learn a behavior (sit, stay, etc), why can’t they learn that when they do a certain bad behavior there are consequences and therefore fear those consequences (unless the length of time between the act and consequence has an impact)? The thing is, maybe they don’t have the capacity to think about that while they are doing the bad act. Maybe that’s the difference between us and them and the knowing of morality. Why don’t humans do bad acts that feel good all the time? For 2 reasons: Because it’s not right and because there will be consequences. I don’t think dogs think of either of those things when they are doing something that either relieves their stress or is fun to do when they are bored. It’s hard for me to imagine that my puppy is thinking “I know I shouldn’t be doing this” while chewing a hole in my couch (yes, that happened just last week and he didn’t act at all “guilty” when I got home).
I find these online videos cruel. Just because we think it’s cute, we “torture” our dogs. We do the same thing with teasing. I can’t stand it when someone teases a dog over and over again and find it funny. Like teasing a child, it’s just mean.
Glen says
Always an interesting topic. Do you think this behavior is a mild version of learned helplessness?
em says
This is always such a complex issue- I love these discussions. As far as where I stand, stated as simply as possible:
1. Are dogs capable of guilt, defined (by me) as unprompted feelings of sorrow or shame for having done something objectively “wrong” according to their own internal and objective standard? No, I don’t think so. I don’t think dogs do a lot of abstract thinking, in general.
2. Is the above definition the only way that humans define “guilt” as experienced and expressed by fellow humans? Nope. And I would argue that there is a very significant cross section of humans who never experience guilt as I defined it above. Guilt is often defined quite variously, to describe everything from “I don’t really think my actions were wrong but I feel bad that I hurt so-and-so’s feelings” to the woe felt by wrongdoers caught and punished who feel no remorse at all for their actions or the effects of those actions, but are ever so sorry to be facing punishment. It’s a slippery concept, even among humans. In the example Trisha gave above, she quite rightly note that the physical signs of apology she offers do not reflect a sense of HAVING DONE anything wrong, but by disturbing an obviously busy waitress, adding to her stress and burden, isn’t she about to do something that she feels is, if not wrong-wrong, at least socially problematic? According to my very strict definition, this isn’t guilt, but if guilt is defined more loosely, as feeling bad about offending another, maybe it IS guilt motivating that apologetic body language. Even the pretense (the totally empty apology in word or gesture offered by a person for the purposes of social manipulation) serves an important social function as a way to indicate that the apologizer KNOWS the rules of social interaction, realizes that their actions are liable to give offense and wishes to indicate that they do not wish to fight with the likely-to-be offended party.
OK, so this is not very simple and maybe not helping untangle this issue, so let me try to get back on track.
2. Are dogs capable of understanding socially enforced rules for behavior? Unquestionably yes.
3. Do they internalize these rules in the sense that they feel forbidden behaviors are inherently wrong? No, I’d say. The behavioral code of dogs (and some humans, it must be observed) is not so much formed by internal ethics as external prompts.
4. Can dogs predict that certain behaviors will likely be perceived as offensive to other dogs or humans? Yes, I think so. Even absent any signal of unhappiness from the about-to-be offended party, dogs can use both associative learning and extrapolation to predict that against-the-rules behaviors are likely to offend.
I know that many people find this to be a sticking point, but I want to emphasize, I ABSOLUTELY DON’T mean to suggest that dogs (or small children, or any other animals) are in any way morally culpable for their actions. I don’t think they have a sense of right and wrong as such, but I have seen too many examples of dogs who anticipate a negative reaction and offer proactive appeasement based on a) their awareness that they have broken a rule and b) the presence of a person or dog likely to enforce that rule, to imagine that they are not capable of understanding that a rule exists and that it will be socially offensive to break it.
So while I think it is much more accurate to translate dog appeasement gestures as “please don’t be mad” than “I’m sorry”, I think it’s far less clear that the level of empathy, memory, and predictive social behavior necessary to prompt this reaction is all that different from the sorts of impulses that prompt what many people would describe as “guilt” in fellow humans.
Fascinating topic!
Kelly Schlesinger says
I think both dogs and people can identify the “I’m sorry” look and vocalization. One day I was behind my dog and he growled and whipped his head around, thinking (I think) that I was another dog. When he saw it was me, his ears went back, his eyes closed into slits and he opened his mouth in a grin. I read it as “oh, I am so sorry I didn’t know it was you,” laughed and all was well. I have also found that when I apologize to a dog, for example when I step on their foot or make an agility mistake, I automatically say “I am SO SORRY,”and put my hands up (I also do that when I commit a stupid driving error) and the dog immediately comes over for some pats and all is forgiven. The difference is that I do feel guilty for being stupid.
Charlotte Kasner says
One of the things that I find most frequently difficult in training and behavioural sessions is convincing the owner that their dog does not think that it is a human or think like a human. Reiterating this error in a scientific paper not only does no favours to good trainers and behaviourists but provides owners with “I told you so” ammunition. It is not going to do any favours for the poor dogs either.
Trisha says
What em said. The only thing wrong with her comment is that I didn’t write it. Seriously, her point is so important. I was thinking about the nuances of this issue when I was reading the dust up on Twitter—that surely there is something between “I’m afraid I’ll be hurt” and “I’m guilty in the sense that people are.” Certainly we know the dangers of the latter; our species is so very quick to attribute purposeful revenge or conscious “law breaking” and punish it with violence. That’s what I was focusing on when I wrote the post. But it is reasonable to argue that members of a species as highly social as dogs have some conscious understanding that certain behavior is acceptable in a group, and some is not. Trying to determine what that means in the mind of a dog makes me squint my eyes and lick my paws. Here’s the question I think we need to be asking: How would we know if a dog has some canine version of right and wrong? What would a dog need to do to illustrate it? I’ll ponder that, although it makes smoke come out of my ears…
CorvusB says
What em said (+2! if you are counting).
McConnell’s analysis, in my opinion, breaks down in trying to examine the whole “apology/wrong/appeasement” thing, and not doing a very good job at it. When I first read the blog post, I thought her main point was that dogs don’t feel guilt – ever. But they do, as clearly enunciated by em in their comment.
On my 3rd reading of McConnell’s post, and on closely paying attention, I realized that her thesis was this (I quote): “how very wrong we are when we assume that appeasement behavior means ” that the dog is admitting guilt. The problem with McConnell’s words, even in that quote, is she binds it to the “I’m sorry, I was wrong” analysis, finding fault with Lent’s phrasing regarding apologies. If McConnell had stuck with clarifying Lent’s article, by just saying “appeasement does not equal guilt”, she would have been on solid ground. That is, I believe, why she criticized Lent’s article – she felt his words equated the two (appeasement and guilt). In my opinion, her analysis got bogged down right at the start by digging in to criticize Lent’s choice of words. It certainly distracted me from her main thesis.
And, AFAIC, the diner analogy doesn’t work at all. A customer might very well apologize to a waitress even when the customer has done nothing. The critical factor there is the waitress’s current world view, not the customer’s. It doesn’t have to be rational (and people usually aren’t). Apologies are very much an appeasement.
Once I understood McConnell’s main thesis, I entirely agree with her primary point, i.e. “appeasement does not equal guilt”. But I also found Lent’s article to be a decent bit of writing. It certainly didn’t cover all the possible points – but it was a brief article – not something that was going to cover every corner of a complex issue. A simple statement “It was fine so far as it went, AND we should remember that . . .” would have carried the conversation farther.
Trisha says
Thanks for adding your thoughts CorvusB, much appreciated. We might be in more agreement than one might think. It is true that the core of what I wanted to say was “appeasement does not equal guilt.” One can indeed argue that “I’m sorry, I was wrong” is a different concept altogether. Of course, they are related, and that’s where things get complicated. I think your point is a good one, and regret that I didn’t write about it in more depth. The fact is that while writing the post I ran out of time and energy, and hit “publish” feeling that I hadn’t given the nuances of the issue justice. It is indeed such a complicated issue and fascinating issue, one that I hope we continue to discuss in the future.
And now, as others will see next week in my next post, I am about to leave the online world, and retreat to the farm to charge my batteries, heal my knee and refresh my brain. I’ll continue reading comments, but will be a tad quiet until the end of the month.
em says
I just popped by to take a break from a crazy work week and oh geez…I’m blushing. 🙂 Thank you Trisha, I feel so grateful to be part of discussions like this one with so many insightful posters. I sometimes feel like I’m cheating a bit because it always seems chiming in late, when I’ve had the benefit of reading and mulling over what everyone else has already said 😉
I certainly feel that I’ve learned volumes from the contributions made by the community here on the blog, and I’m so tickled to think that I may be returning the favor occasionally.
The forum that you’ve created here really is a marvel- an oasis of civility, curiosity, and compassion In the desert of cyberspace 🙂
My Dog Store says
Totally agree! That video was heartbreaking to watch. The guilty look of a dog is a response to it’s owner’s behavior. Your dog knows that you are upset or angry and he is using that gesture to calm you down and avoid punishment from you.
Utsav Srinet says
I don’t want my dog to feel fearful or distressed, but I feel like I need to do something to let her know getting in the trash is not OK. Also, she is house-trained except when I am on the computer a long time and ignore her. It doesn’t matter if she has just gone out. It seems like she is expressing displeasure at being ignored. How can I deal with these behaviours effectively?
swearondog says
I agree with you. those dog shaming videos just boil my blood and this aint good for present generation too.
Grace&Baxter says
I will add, on an observational note with my dogs, there are a few cases where guilt can be argued. Not in the sense that they regret what they did, or are truly ‘sorry’ about it in the sense that “I’m sorry it won’t happen again”, but when they have been taught what we consider right from wrong, or corrected enough for a certain action (in this case trash raiding) they understand that it is not something we find acceptable, whether they agree or disagree is yet to be determined haha.
My evidence is scant, but leads to a question on the issue.
One day I came back home, and the trash had been pulled out, only one dog has ever done this, (though she’s doing a good job of teaching my little old man to do the same thing, sigh.) so I knew who it was. But I didn’t catch the act, so I never punished it, ever. Never scolded, got verbally upset, I’m sure I showed signs of irritation or distress, who likes cleaning up trash at the end of a twelve hour shift? But she has never been rebuked for it.
But, before I had even see the trash, even knew what had happened, or said anything to her, she was showing signs of appeasement, head lowered, tail low and wagging, gaze averted. It wasn’t until I did go in and see the mess I knew why she was doing it. Again, didn’t say anything, didn’t pet her or anything either of course, but cleaned it up and went on.
Still, ever since, it’s led me to wonder if this is something that can be taught, or learned without punishment. For lack of proper words, it is a guilt thing, and they can learn right from wrong and to be, “guilty” for it. Not in the sense that they regret it, or won’t do it again, (how do we create a word between guilt and appeasement?) but that they have learned it displeases or stresses us.
Priyanka Srinet says
Dogs are adorable. They know right from wrong….. unfortunately too late. Disappointment is the best punishment. No need to go rogue on them.