Lots of dogs go through a “what’s in it for me?” stage (and this stage lasts longer in some dogs than others, right?). Mr. Hope is dancing around it right now, especially when I ask him to come into the house. Several of you asked about ways to handle it; not surprising, since most dogs aren’t like the Lassie on television and don’t automatically do what we want just because we love them.
Here are some of the things I’m doing right now to get Hope to come back into the house from the yard. Of course, “But I don’t wannnaaaaaa” is going to occur in different contexts, but many of the principles here apply to all situations, they just need modifying to fit the problem.
COMING IN MEANS GOING OUT Hope loves loves loves to be outside. He’d happily stay outside all day long if he could. So, sometimes, his reinforcement for coming inside is . . . wait for it . . . going outside. It’s the perfect example of the Premack Principle: using a high probability behavior to reinforce a low probability one. I can count on him always going outside (high probability) because he loves it there, so I can use that to reinforce him for coming inside (right now it’s a low probability that he’d do it on his own). That means that sometimes when he comes in when asked, I say Good Boy! and dash outside again for a few more minutes.
JEALOUSY IS YOUR FRIEND This only works if there is some other living thing in your house that loves food or toys. But if you do, it’s powerful stuff. When Hope started pausing 20 feet away when I called him to come into the house, I began calling Willie and giving him a treat when he came. Will always comes when called, and I can give him a treat for coming and entering the house whenever I need to. As soon as Hope saw Willie getting a treat, he instantly came running, only to discover that treats are only available on a limited basis. “Oh, too bad” I say, with sincere sympathy. “You missed the treats this time!” Right now he isn’t getting a treat for coming to the door ‘late,’ but if he then enters the house I’ll give him a treat once he’s inside.
UP THE ANTE I always have a mix of food treats available, from pieces of kibble to real meat. Right now he gets a jack pot of real meat if he comes, first time, when I call him to the door to the house.
MIX IT UP I’m very conscious with Hope of the importance of varying not just the reinforcement schedule, but what Hope gets as a reinforcement. You want to mix it up with any dog, but for some reason it feels more important with Hope than with others I’ve had. He’s pretty independent (okay, for a BC), and I want to condition him early on that if he does what I ask he’ll feel good (versus the more narrow “he’ll get food”). Although I use high value food most of the time for coming into the house, I also use play, effusive praise in which I get down on the ground and laugh like a loon while letting him leap all over me and lick me like a popsicle and again, getting to go back outside.
IF HE WON’T MOVE, YOU SHOULD If all else fails, don’t stand where you are and continue to call (and pollute your cue!) The few times that Hope simply plants his feet and won’t move toward me, or turns and goes farther outside to dig or look for sheep poop to eat (a favorite), I stop saying anything, ensure that I have a great food treat in hand, and go to him. Moving quietly, never scolding, I’ll show him what I’m holding and lure him toward me and back to the house. I’ll shape this, giving him a treat for just a few steps if he was overwhelmed with a distraction (New stinky sheep poop! Fox poop even better! Do you get the pattern here? … there is a reason the word for dog in Navajo translates: “eater of horse poop.”). If the distraction was only so-so, I’ll expect him to come further before I give him the treat.
Are we done yet? Oh my no, he’s just beginning adolescence after all. I expect we’ll work on these things for at least a year. However, he is already much improved; I haven’t had to walk to him more than once or twice in the last 4 days. Now he comes voluntarily when we move from outside to inside about 75% of the time, even when I don’t call him to come, we just run into the house together. That’s an increase from — I’m guessing here — about 20% of the time, so that’s great progress.
What about you? Tell us your stories of your free spirit, and what you’ve done to work through it. I can’t wait to read what you send, and will be sure to have Hope read them too.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: We had 2 days of hateful weather on our short vacation, but thankfully the weather cleared and we were able to enjoy Perrot State Park in western Wisconsin for a few days. Jim got to take off his hateful Iron Man brace for part of the day and I even hiked up a steep bluff for a little bit, although it was a far cry from what we intended. But we got time off and a sweet visit with my niece and her new husband. Ummmm, so good to visit with such wonderful people. And we’re related! Go figure.
We returned home to a dying lamb, spent Friday night trying to save it, but to no avail. Turns out, even though we have wormed the sheep on a careful schedule and have alternated wormers, that worms all over the world are developing resistance to worming medicines, and that’s what is happening here. The little white ewe lamb, the one I bottle raised, took a dive when we were away and was too far gone to save by the time we got back. The next day we started a new worming protocol, aware that no matter what we do it might not be enough. Seems so strange to lose an animal to worms — that just doesn’t happen in dogs (yet) but I understand it’s becoming a problem in horses as well. Gotta give those parasites credit, but I hate losing a lamb to something that it seems like I should be able to prevent. There are 2 lambs I have my eye on, one looks especially thin, but all the others are thriving, and clearly are inherently resistant to worms. I’ll pay special attention to which ewes have resistant lambs when I breed next year.
On a lighter note, here’s the small prairie at the foot of the bluffs at Perrot State Park (on the Mississippi flyway). It’s a beautiful park and a lovely little restored prairie. Hard to imagine that there were 10,000’s of thousands of acres of this across the midwest.
And here’s a happy scene to any farmer: a winter’s worth of hay being delivered to the barn. Thank you Gary, Gus, Gordy and Brad for doing all the work while Jim and I felt guilty (but cooler) in the house!
Hope Rider says
Miikka, my dachshund-who-knows-what mix is about 14 months old, and has been in this stage since we first adopted him, when he was 2 months old. He seems to get sit, stay, down, walk, etc., but only does them if he is getting something for them, or if he wants to. I understand that I need to be more consistent and practice more (I’m not the best at fitting in training), but it bugs the heck out of me when we are on a walk and he decides that he would rather just dig his feet in and refuse to move, or even worse, flop. On his back, flat out, “drag me home.” It can happen at any point in a walk, and if I try to use treats to get him to walk consistently, he has actually figured out that he gets more treats if he does the behavior more often. Augh!
Dena (Izzee's Mom) says
I’ve used some of the same methods with my Springer, Pixie (now a little over a year old) that you are using with Hope. She, too, would love to spend most of her time outside. We live in the ‘burbs, and have a fully-fenced back yard. Ours is larger than many, so she does have space to zoom around every day for a while.
Since my 5-year-old Springer, Ford, does have an excellent recall into the house, I can count on him to return inside right away. If Pixie doesn’t come, I sometimes get a treat and stand inside the storm door with Ford where Pix can see us through the glass. Once she’s looking at us, I’ll give him 2 or 3 small treats very obviously. Then, of course, she wants to come in. But once she’s in “too bad, so sad, all gone!”
And both dogs get occasional “bonus cookies” just for coming in when called.
Laura Atwood says
My BC/cattle dog, Blue, is highly distracted by any small critter: ground squirrels, rabbits, marmots…you name it. Even when walking him on leash he walks at the very end of his leash, in the grassy area along the road, hunting for little furry things. I’ve been trying to get him to come to me (which sometimes means reeling him in like a fish), praising him, and then immediately letting him go back to investigating that very interesting ground squirrel tunnel. I’m having some luck but I think it will take a long time for him to get the idea that coming to me doesn’t me he has to completely give up what he’s investigating.
Ellen Pepin says
This sounds just like my adopted Collie, Tess, who is somewhere between 3-6. We’ve had her just a little more than one year. Her come needs a lot of work, especially when she is barking at the two dogs in the next yard. I can see that I have been wrong about giving her a treat when she finally comes to me. I have had a little success by making her jealous of our German Shepherd/Rottweiler mix, Dakota. He is very good about coming, so I make a big deal out of treating him. Then she will come. But, I have also been reinforcing her coming when she feels like it. No more.
I am so amazed by how much I learn just from reading this blog.
Leslie says
Since you use Chinese herbs for the dogs, have you thought about them for the sheep? I don’t know if there are any studies on their use in livestock, but it’s a possibility. Also, pumpkin seeds are supposed to eliminate several kinds of parasites. My worry is about possible heartworm resistance to ivermectin. I’ve read some reports about the parasite that causes river blindness in Africa becoming resistant.
Mtn Cur Mama says
It could be worse… you could have a cur dog! My Rufus thinks the answer to the question “Do you MIND?” is “No, Mama, I don’t mind at all…. you just go on with what you’re doing and I’ll go do my thing.” Thank goodness he’s the world’s most jealous dog (I’m his #1 most guarded resource) and he’s addicted to fresh frozen bones. If he sees me loving on the other dogs, giving them a bone, I can almost always count on him to come to collect his bone. Last winter when he was learning to stay near the house I used those two inducements every day. Trying to chase him down is perfectly impossible (these dogs were bred to run feral pigs to exhaustion) so we’ve had to rely on his desire to be with the group.
Now I’m working with my Plott Hound foster girl who is having trouble just responding to her name. Forget about coming when off lead. Any suggestions?
Heidi says
My heeler was a star in her training classes and was very good at “down,” even without treat rewards. A year or two after we finished an advanced class she decided she wasn’t going to do “down” on command without any food rewards. Imagine my horror when I was showing someone how well-trained and well-behaved she is and when I told her “down” she just looked away. After trying to re-teach her and get her back to where we were, I read about using toys as reinforcement, or something else they like (I probably read it in one of your books) and decided to try a new tactic. She LOVES playing fetch and I decided to use throwing the ball as a reward. She caught on very quickly. Over time I added in a stay and made her do a down stay until I released the ball. She has learned a lot more self-control and will do a down even without me having a ball in my hand.
I’ve also always tried to phase out/reduce treat rewards as she gets better at new tricks. I’ve always combined treat rewards with effusive praise and as she gets better at a command I start to reduce how often she gets a treat so the praise becomes the primary reward. I’m sure people think I’m out of my mind when I get completely silly, high-voiced praising her sitting on command or passing a dog without reacting.
Mary says
Nikki, our very independent and strong willed 1 year old golden/poodle mix, would also be happy to stay outside all day if she could and we’ve spent a good part of her first year working on getting her to come in when called. Once she was about 3 months old, she was definitely in the
Kat says
Ranger and I went for our Therapy Dog International testing today and Ranger offered up a perfect example of “What’s in it for me” when he was asked to sit. You could practically hear him exclaiming “But Mom, I don’t want to sit over here, the people who will pet me are over there.” In fact he didn’t sit until the evaluator started toward him upon which he offered up his best sit for petting. Obviously, I’m going to need to set him up more where sitting even when the people aren’t there gets the people to come over and pet him. When asked to down he rolled on his back inviting tummy rubs and then stayed like that when I walked away for the come when called–he did come beautifully but I began to suspect that the evaluator starting to wonder about his suitability. Of course he put any doubts to rest when he happily sailed into the chaos of the group of people with extra legs (crutches, walkers) and wheels (wheelchair) all shouting for his attention and trying to pet him at the same time and was absolutely delighted to meet them all and have them pet him. And later when being tested for reaction to distractions when the suddenly opening umbrella only made him blink–he didn’t even turn his head. Too bad I couldn’t have explained the long term benefits of doing what I ask in the short term–doing the weird things now gets you much more petting later.
Pike says
Nobody told Ronja the hound mix that “what’s in it for Me?” is a stage. She is 3.5 years old now and it is her deeply ingrained life philosophy.
I suspect, that I will learn more and more humbleness, patience and dog training creativity and that Ronja will become more and more secure and less inclined to yell at scary dogs, kids or cats – while always wanting to please herself and that hound nose the most.
Maybe not a lesson to share with your lovely, independent Border Collie pup – but a good lesson for me who always had well trained dogs (incl. another hound) and thought that training is only a question of effort and knowledge.
Frances says
Poppy is now 13 months, and doesn’t seem to have gone through this stage (I may regret writing that!). Sophy, on the other hand, seems to weigh up the pros and cons every time, and decide where lies the best pay-off for her. Fortunately she is an amenable, affectionate little dog, who usually prefers being with me, but not always (although seeing Poppy getting a treat for being first dog back helps). We had one of our rather frequent communal parties the other day, and both dogs were having a wonderful time playing with the children, getting cuddles from the adults, and – the best bit – helping to finish off the excess of barbecued sausages. Then I decided it was time to go in. Poppy, rather reluctantly, came with me. Sophy was having none of it! So I went and got her, carried her a little way off, put her into a short sit-stay – and then released them both to go back to the party. Happy, happy dogs! I carried them both away the second time – didn’t want to risk diluting the lesson!
I also use a slight aversive on dogs that won’t come into the house when asked – closing the door behind me. Mine are not allowed out on their own (it is just not possible to dog proof the mixture of personal and communal gardens around us), so this is just worrying enough for them to want to come in to join the rest of the pack asap. They have not yet twigged that I am watching carefully through the small windows in the top of the door, to make sure they stay close and safe.
Beckmann says
Since any kinds of treats do not work for my dog I use one particular thing.
Well
AnneJ says
We have a routine every morning after the dogs have run around the yard- everyone who is going to work goes out to the barn and all the dogs go into stalls to wait for their turn to work. I usually take 3 or 4 everyday. You can probably predict the problem- all the dogs want the first turn so nobody wants to go into a stall to wait. So I started a policy that the first one into a stall is the first to work. The older dogs now generally rush to the stall of their choice so I can call them back out again and put one of the reluctant stall goers in their place. This worked far better than treats, which I have also tried.
If they all rush in, I have to make a decision about who goes first, but sometimes just letting them come out, get a scratch and run around for a minute is better than nothing.
Susan says
Dewormer resistance is HUGE in horses, with no new products in the pipeline and growing resistance to all those that exist now. Most equine vets advocate “strategic deworming,” where instead of dosing them at regular intervals, a fecal egg count is performed, and only those horses who show a positive egg count are dewormed. They have found, as you suspect in your sheep, that certain herd members are “shedders” of worm eggs, while others’ immune defenses against the worms keep them in check and prevent them from shedding eggs. Dounia has had a 0 egg count for over 3 years, with just twice yearly (Spring and Fall) deworming.
I was interested in the comment from a previous poster that her dog turned her head away when asked to down. My little terrier, who is remarkably accommodating for her kind, will every once in a while turn her head away when I ask her to sit, usually towards the end of a vigorous walk. This is a bit off-topic (I think) from What’s In It For Me, because it just seems kind of like her mind is log-jammed, and she can’t process the request. She won’t run off, but will stand where she is and look stressed if I move in front of her and keep up the hand-signal for sit. She has gotten more and more stressed if I kept the pressure on, but if we move a bit farther on she will regain her composure and respond to the cue. She occasionally deems my requests not worth her while, but this feels very different.
Angela says
After the last “what’s in it for me?” post, I tried this resource limitation approach with my adolescent (17 mos) border collie Dax. He is great on recalls in obedience class, but far less than perfect when we’re on a walk where there are many inviting things to sniff. After reading the previous post, I gave big sis Echo his treat when he did not hustle on a recall. That resulted in an immediate attitude adjustment (after just a couple of tries) – it was pretty awesome! John Rogerson suggests something like this in the Dog Vinci Code as well – he didn’t suggest giving the treat to another dog, but he did recommend withholding the treat if the dog doesn’t respond promptly (I think this assumes that your dog understands recalls).
The lesson has stayed with Dax pretty well – we practiced recalls on a long line this morning at the park, and he was more prompt than usual in his recall, and better at ignoring distractions. This has been a great help! As far as I can tell, this has also become a fun new game (which is how Dax appears to perceive all obedience tasks)!
Karissa says
My young BC female went through this stage. While I do occasionally fall back on the, “Do you want a treat” route to get the dogs in the house quickly, I didn’t want to use this EVERY time I needed her to come inside (it generally does work 100% of the time at my house, though — shake a bag and they come running).
So with her, I gave her one shot and if she didn’t come, I went into the house and got her leash — Then walked to her and without saying anything, leashed her up and walked her into the house and directly into her crate for a brief time-out.
Very quickly she progressed to the point of coming when I started to walk towards her with the leash (still went into crate). Then it got to the point of me stepping towards her without the leash (still went into crate). Now I pretty much just have to give her a look and she comes. 🙂
Sarah says
Mine don’t have the same level of outside distractions that yours do, but with my one young Staffordshire Bull Terrier bitch, Tess, I did go through a phase of having trouble calling her in from the yard. I instituted a program of reward kibble. I keep a little bag of kibble on the counter near the back door, and when the dogs come in, I throw a sprinkling of kibble down on the kitchen floor for them to find. I think the foraging aspect makes it more exciting than just being handed a treat, plus there is the competition aspect of trying to find the kibble faster than the other dogs. (obviously, I don’t have any resource guarders) It definitely solved the “coming in from the back yard” problem, and I’ve made no effort to phase it out, I don’t mind rewarding them every time.
Now the problem I’m having with Tess’ 5-month-old son, Pirate, is that he is in a big hurry to get back in the house for the kibble hunt, and I have to force him to stay outside long enough to eliminate. At least he seems to be figuring out that the sooner he goes, the sooner I’ll open the door so he can go in and get his snack.
Betsy McCoy says
Here’s a trick I have used with my lab/collie Sam. Sam is supremely independent. He would look at me when I called as if to acknowledge he heard me, then continue on his merry way. My trick was to suddenly get VERY interested in something in the grass at my feet, even kneeling down and picking at the blades of grass. Sam couldn’t resist coming back to see what I had found (probably thought it was some kind of poop, too). As he investigated, I quietly attached his leash. Doesn’t always work (what does?), but works more often than not.
Amy W. says
My boy, Axle, would retrieve the ball, bring it back, but then not drop it. Solution: If he did refused to drop the ball when asked – game over. We quit playing. I would leave him standing there with his ball, walk away, and after a few moments I would produce a second tennis ball from my pocket and begin tossing it to myself. As soon as I had his attention – I would say drop it again. He would drop his ball, I’d put my doppelganger ball back in my pocket, and throw his ball immediately. I have not had any other issues with asking his to drop other objects – just retrieved toys in a park-play setting.
Beth says
I frequently use “catch and release” when we are hiking with the Corgis. Corgis stay close (unlike hounds, for example) but are low to the ground and therefore hard to catch if they get in a mood. My female would rather die than argue with a person, but my male makes that face, like a toddler about to pitch a fit, and just ignores me on occasion.
Where it’s safe to do so (no bears), I make a habit of carrying a pocket full of treats. Periodically, I call them to me, hand out treats, and send them back out to play. Sometimes they get one treat, sometimes five. Sometimes it’s kibbles or other “boring” treats, but sometimes I’ll have bits of cheese or cut-up hot dog.
Then, when I need to leash them up, whenever possible I grab them rather than calling them. This way, they think “Come come come!” on a hike means “Yummy treats, and more playtime!” and not “Games are over, time to go home.”
It works well, except in the face of buried poop.
Lynn says
We went through some of this “what’s in it for ME” last summer with our then 4-to 5-month-old Border collie pup. He LOVED being outside. Our back yard is hilly and wooded, with chipmunks, squirrels, and even deer – the best place in the world to tear around. He loved to pretend to be a Wild Thing (right out of the Maurice Sendak book). His ears (most of the time of the “airplane” variety) rose to “full prick” status, something that only happened when he found something REALLY thrilling, like a ball to chase. It almost struck me as a borderline compulsion: “I NEED to be out there!!!”. Although his recall indoors (as well as in our much-more-boring front yard) was beautiful (fewer distractions, natch!), and he’d happily eat freeze-dried liver while I touched his collar when we were in the back yard before I released him again (or leashed him to bring him indoors), it was clear to me that I’d be fighting a losing battle to call him all the way indoors of his own volition. I was also having trouble instilling “door manners” at the back door (but not at other doors). It was all I could do to get him to “sit” there. He’d sit, taut as piano wire, but the instant I tried to open the door he’d be up ready to bolt. On many occasions I would simply close the door again and wait for him to sit. His patience exceeded mine: we’d spend half an hour and he still wouldn’t manage to retain his ‘sit’ until the door was all the way open. One time I made the mistake of doing that while trying to enter the gate to our back yard, and ended up totally devoured by mosquitoes – still without any sustained “sit” at the back gate. I felt we were getting nowhere.
So we gave it a break. It seemed to me that – good as he was most of the time – this was a “draw” that was just too much for his limited impulse control to handle. Besides – soon he had surgery on his shoulders, and needed time to recover. The vet warned me that crashing through our hill would make him “dead lame”. So the back yard became forbidden territory.
Fast forward to this spring, when he’d recovered. Even though he still *loves* the back yard, he’s matured. We had no problem the first time we tried imposing a “sit” until the door was wide open, a “sit” right outside the door (all off leash), and a “wait” until released to “go play”. And we have had no trouble calling him all the way back into the house. Sure, sometimes we’ll do so just to release him again. But we haven’t even needed to use food bribes.
Now the big challenge is to keep him from bolting at one point on our off-leash walks through the woods. There’s a stream that the trail crosses that’s a favorite hang-out for dogs, with many owners throwing sticks. His recall on these walks is normally fantastic, and he generally keeps in eyeshot, checking back with me frequently while we walk, but as we get closer to that stream, he becomes inattentive, and he gets farther and farther ahead of me. I was asking him to “lie down” as we got close, until I could catch up; then repeat to let him go a *little* ways ahead. But at the end the temptation was always too great, and “they’re off!” So lately I’ve tried a different strategy: instead of my letting *him* go ahead, he has to remain in a sit or down stay while *I* go ahead. I then call him, place him in a stay again, and repeat. This seems to be working (he finds it a lot easier to “stay” when I’m walking away from him than to refrain from charging ahead of me once he’s gotten past me) and I can get him right to the point where the trail breaks off to go to the stream, go down myself first to make sure the coast is clear (no small children he’ll knock over), then call him on. Sure, I could put him on the leash until we got there, but it wouldn’t help him in mastering impulse control.
So, I’d add: choose your battles. And consider the maturity (or immaturity) of the pup in question. Probably I was asking too much of him last summer. If our back yard had been less enticing, things might have been just fine. And look for different strategies that will achieve the same purpose when something isn’t working; losing battles only frustrates everyone.
Denise says
After going to a shaping seminar a couple of years ago and actually beginning to understand the hows and whys, I started to shape any new trick/game as much as possible although sometimes I’m dense and can’t figure out how 🙁 Anyway, behaviors that have been purely shaped always get a consistently faster and stronger respnse from my dog than those I taught using lures or capturing. Hugh adores the “guess what I’m waiting for?” game and when I’m actively shaping new behaviours, the thrill seems to carry over and he is way more attentive and can’t wait for the next training session so anything that even remotely resembles training gets an enthusiastic response. I use treats when shaping but it really seems like the thrill of figuring something out is far more rewarding than any treat/toy/privilege. He doesn’t forget shaped behaviors either, even if we haven’t practiced one for a very long time. Sadly, I had never even heard of shaping when he was a baby learning the recall so it’s not his best behavior. If memory serves, I taught it by capturing. It’s not bad but not great either. Has anyone got suggestions for re-teaching a recall using shaping? Can you shape a recall? I’m trying to picture it but, as previously noted, I can be dense about these things…
Beth says
Denise: To “shape” recall, what you would do is first click/treat when the dog looks at you, then click/treat when the dog shifts weight in your direction, then click/treat when the dog takes a step towards you, then two steps, til you only reward for a full-speed recall and then put a name on it. At least, that’s how I’d do it. 🙂 However, I rarely do random shaping with my male Corgi because he gets so excited, and then starts offering all sorts of random behaviors, and then starts getting frustrated and barking at me. He’s too keen for shaping, it seems. I’ve seen it work wonders with other dogs.
My favorite way to get a full-speed recall is to play the recall game: Have a partner hold the dog’s collar (works even better if you partner up with a second dog with a fabulous recall). Make a big show of getting out a big sack of favorite rewards, get the dog riled up with something like “Ready?? READY???????” and then when the dog is straining at the collar, the partner releases and AFTER the dog starts running towards you full-speed, start calling “Come come come come come!!” in your happiest voice. If you start this with a puppy, within a week you will have a dog that recalls at full-speed, ears flapping and mouth grinning. Of course you still need to do distraction training, which is a little tougher.
@Trisha: I wanted to let you know that I have tried your method of first saying “NO!” if my dogs are headed towards something yucky, then when the dog stops and looks up, saying “Gooooood” leading right into “Come come come!” For the first time EVER I was able to call my boy Jack off a pile of something gross buried in the leaves (probably feral cat poop). I was ecstatic, and Jack got a rapid succession of treats and my most enthusiastic “Good boy!” dance. Prior attempts at just calling him off always failed, since he’s one of those dogs smart enough to figure out that the buried poop is tastier than anything I can offer. The “no” is what did the trick.
mungobrick says
It’s not “what’s in it for me?” with Daisy, I don’t think. She is just plain reluctant to come at certain times of day. She comes in right away first thing in the a.m. and last thing at night, but most of the rest of the time she will just sit and look at me from across the yard. It’s not that she’s distracted. She just doesn’t seem to understand. If I go over to her she will walk back to the house with me, but she will not come on her own. She doesn’t like being outside on her own, and she doesn’t like losing sight of me, but she will just sit there and stare at me. She’s lately started refusing to come out of the car when we get home from her afternoon walk. I tried treats – they kind of work, but really the only thing that works is leaving the car door open while we go do something else in the yard. This is a skittish dog with fear issues (genetic, not environmental in origin) and sometime she just seems to get a notion in her mixed-up fearful head and I can’t figure it out. On the other hand, she DID come to me yesterday on her morning off-leash walk, and her friend Angus the boxer didn’t come to his owner – he preferred to stay and investigate the small furry black creature with the white stripe the two of them had found… That was a happy occasion for me. (Angus didn’t like his hydrogen peroxide and baking soda bath one bit.)
Cathy Hughes says
I love it when a client figures out how to use new behaviors as solutions for unwanted ones. This student’s Corgi would hide in a closet to avoid certain situations. They did not care that the dog wanted to leave the living room when she tired of guests, they just did not want the dog in the closet. The dog “corrected” their attempts to remove her from the closet in the past. Here is a entry from this weeks training diary I am having the client keep:
“We had a lot going on today with electricians and yard maintenance people. Normally, Izzy runs into my closet when she
Susan Mann says
Hmmm, was just wondering about what you were doing with training hope, as I am doing a re-read of “For the Love of a Dog” and you mention doing several things with pups (e.g. holding paws, getting pup used to a crate) and I know I’m keeping a list (that I keep misplacing and starting over!) for when I get my next puppy.
Not sure if its ok to mention here, but Susan Garrett is discussing recalls on her blog, and just put out a short video (she will be selling a longer version) but you have to sign up first:
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/brilliant-recalls-sign-up/
I really like Leslie McDevitt’s early training also, teaching the “whiplash turn” by clicking just the early initial neck muscle movement, without having any real distance involved.
Susan Mann says
In addition to the more conventional training I did, I also called her over when there was something interesting to look at (a turtle on the path), or when I found something yummy, like the cheeseburger I planted in a tree ahead of time, and then we ate it together. Nothing like a cheeseburger for bonding!
em says
Susan- I’ve seen that ‘look-away’ avoidance signal a LOT. My dane used to do that whenever he felt nervous or overstimulated. He’d perform a command perfectly, get his reward and then repeat it maybe twice before getting noticably anxious. At home it never went any further than refusing eye contact, but when I took him to a multi-ring, multi-activity obedience club, he hit the roof . Since all my previous dogs have been high-drive, food-loving sporty types who were only too happy to gobble treats and revel in my focused attention all day if they could, it took me a little while to figure out that he needed a very low-pressure approach. He also reacted much, much better if I avoided luring or baiting or anything that smacked of a negotiation. I vividly recall moments in our ill-fated obedience class during which he would sit or down on command but express his obvious distress by spitting his treat (chicken or steak-not very food-driven, he needed high value treats to elicit any sense of reward at all) onto the floor to be eaten by whoever was lucky enough to be next to us in line. For Otis, extreme avoidance (staring at the floor, head low) was a prelude to explosive frustration-jumping, barking, lunging. Unfortunately, I had to put him through an altogether terrible experience (thankfully I resisted suggestions to jerk at his collar when he was unresponsive) to learn that in situations like this, he needed me to back off and give him some time to relax. It took months to undo the damage done during the six weeks of that class. Otis is never going to win any prizes for quick responses- he’s a thoughtful, careful dog, not given to reflexive action. He taught me how to truly practice patience and MY reward is a beautifully behaved dog who can go with me anywhere.
D in NH says
My younger BC would be happy to LIVE outside. When he first started resisting coming inside during those “terrible teenage” months, it occurred to me that in addition to preferring the great outdoors, he also preferred what we DID outdoors. I made a conscious effort to make it FUN to come back in the house. Rather than moving on to non-doggy chores right after a dog walk, I’d end the walk a bit early and come in to play some fun games to try to make him think that being inside could be just as much fun as being outside. I also used jealousy a LOT in his early days…when my other dog came in, she wouldn’t just get yummy treats, she’d be the first to get to play indoor games, and I made sure I was laughing out loud so he could hear me. The other thing that is great for him is his doggy door, which leads to a small fenced pen where he can safely go and spend time outside unsupervised, which he frequently chooses to do even now that he’s an adult.
Dena (Izzee's Mom) says
Hope, you said, “… it bugs the heck out of me when we are on a walk and he decides that he would rather just dig his feet in and refuse to move, or even worse, flop. On his back, flat out,
Deanna in OR says
One thing we do in the puppy class I teach is teach a variety of games for “come”. With all of these, we start in a low-distraction environment (kitchen, living room…).
The first is the ‘one step come”. Pup close in front of you, hold a high-value treat (or perhaps a toy) to its nose, take a TINY step backward pulling the hand with the treat towards you as you say “Come!” in a happy voice. Pup follows the treat, mark and reward (or tug), and repeat. If you have a handful of treats, you can take many LITTLE steps around a room doing 1-step “Come!”. In this exercise, the training is for BOTH the person and the pup– the person learns to have a consistent sound when they say “Come!”. I tell my students to try to do at least 1000 of these (10 or 20 at a time, 3-5 times a day for 3-4 weeks). Then it becomes a habit for both the person (in how they say “Come!”) and the pup.
This habit for how the recall word is said, is important because dogs learn there is meaning in sounds, not “words”. The sound of a happy, higher-pitched “Come!” is very different from a stern, low-pitched, growly “come”. (Which is what humans tend to use when they are unhappy with the pup, or when it doesn’t come the first time).
The 1-step come can also be a reminder exercise–if my supposedly well-trained dog doesn’t come, when I do get to them, we do 5 or 10 quick 1-step comes just as a “back to kindergarten” reminder.
Obviously, we need to generalize “Come!” from nearby to further away. Another fun practice is the restrained recall, which Beth described as the “recall game”. One thing that we add to it is to have the handler move AWAY from the dog as it comes running. A teacher once told me “dogs don’t chase parked cars”, and adding the motion away from the dog as she approaches the handler really speeds up the recall, compared to the handler just standing there.
A third one is the “Take it” game. This works best on a hard surface such as vinyl or concrete. Get a handful of small hard food like kibble. Move a few steps away from the pup, show her the food and then say “Come!” as you toss a piece of kibble away from you between your legs. As the pup gets very close, say “take it!”. As soon as that piece is found and eaten, repeat in the other direction, saying “Come!” as the pup approaches you and “Take it!” as the pup gets to you and moves past toward the thrown kibble. You can also do this with a ball (keep 2 or 3 with you!) for fetch-motivated dogs. Basically, the Premack Principle–“Come to me, and the game will continue!”.
Another practice is to say “Come!” when you KNOW the dog is coming to you anyway–like when you open the dog-food cupboard or you’ve just walked in the door after being gone, whatever situation you KNOW your dog is going to come running.
I also have students teach a separate “collar-touch” behavior- -mark and reward for allowing the collar to be touched or held (under the chin, not over the head). It doesn’t do any good to have a dog come to you only to stop 2 feet away and dance away from you when you try to get control of them.
Other things I share with my students–never say “Come!” unless you KNOW your dog is going to come to you, at least while you are training your recall. It just devalues the sound of your cue if they choose to ignore you. If you want them to come to you for a bath or nail clipping or other unpleasant events, do NOT use your recall word….just go quietly to the pup and get them. You can often get your pup to come to you by making happy sounds, acting silly and running AWAY from them–most dogs love to chase you. And never never scold or punish your pup if she came to you, even if she just killed the neighbor’s cat.
Debbie Schoene says
This discussion prompts me to ask what makes some dogs intrinsically more “biddable” than others? And what IS the definition of “biddable”? My oldest Springer, now over 12, is the most obedient/biddable dog we have ever had. Even as a puppy and adolescent, he never EVER refused to do something I asked of him (assuming he understood what I wanted). I always chalked it up to something quasi-genetic…he was just naturally tractable. But as time went on, I began to think that maybe it had more to do with brains….that he was smart enough to realize he’d ultimately get what HE wanted if he did what was asked of him, that his life would be easier if he were obedient. The ironic thing is, now that he is a senior citizen, he is apt to blow me off frequently which is only partially related to his diminished hearing…..it’s as if he figures he has earned the right after a lifetime of being such a team player! 😉
JJ says
re: “JEALOUSY IS YOUR FRIEND”
I have a friend with a young dog and young kids. They do not have another dog to elicit jealousy feelings. I wonder if this could be made to work with kids. In the outside-to-inside example: Have kids outside with dog. Yell “come” and have kids race up. Give kids yummy treat that would be loved by both dogs and kids. …
Could this work cross species?
Nancy says
Sometimes, when my Vanya is getting that “what’s in it for me” look in his eye, I’ll do a little reverse psychology. For whatever I want him to do, I first give him the opposite command. Then I release him into what I really wanted him to do–but now it’s a release, so he’s eager about it. For example: Vanya adores cars, and when we first rescued him, he could get a bit guardy if you tried to get him out of a car. Rather than calling him, give him the “stay command” and proceed to start eating a hunk of stinky cheese. Then I say “Ok! Here!” and he fairly flies out of the car to get the other half of the cheese. If I want him to come from the fields and he’s looking as if he might blow me off, I first tell him to stay, and then I release him to come. It usually works very well.
trisha says
To JJ: Love the cross species idea, why not?
To Debbie: Ah, a great topic for another post! Where does ‘biddable’ come from anyway. Quick answer is that training is important but genetics are a huge factor. I have to think about what role intelligence plays: I have seen soooo many dogs who used their smarts in ways that were based on ‘beating the system. Yes, training makes a big difference once they learn that it’s to their advantage to ‘listen,’ but what about those dogs that hardly need any training at all? I never taught Lassie to come. Ever. She just did. (Thus, I named her Lassie!)
Deena’s advice to Hope is great: don’t wait for a dog to imitate “passive resistance” like some 60’s protester, get those reinforcements out long before he flops onto the ground. When he does, I’d show him the treats and then eat them myself… (but I also wonder, why is he flopping? what’s going on there? maybe that’s important to look at?
More comments tomorrow (sorry I can’t answer all of them!) Puppy’s gotta pee and Will has been in his crate way too long . . .
Carla says
I also like to teach the two person recall in my classes. I call it the “ping pong recall”. I think it sounds more fun and perfectly describes the exercise.
kate says
I love this post! I have come up with some kooky ways to recall my guys. I actually have a number of recall words, and depending on the situation, I’ll pull one that I think…will get the speedest recall.
Pups = group recall…I agree, it’s very helpful to have other dogs who just at the though of racing to me…the last one will speed up to make sure they get in on the reward.
Dog’s name and Zoom= the old reliable one, that is never used to end fun. Mostly used with Premack Principle…zoom inside then put their leashes on and go for a walk, or in the car, or jump on the bed and play monster under the cover…or when we’re out on trails…zoom to me and I’ll race you to the river and play in the water…mostly for adventures but also use food rewards.
Emergency one= said in a panicked voice only once in a while to remain pure… that I use the highest value rewards (ie…kongs out of my hiking bag that I’ll throw in the bush for them to find…) pull out the most fun environmental rewards and never ever poison it with anything ending fun.
The creative ways to recall them without specifically asking them to recall…
cya- means I’m changing direction and it’s in your best interest to follow as I’ll be hiding somewhere if you’re not close behind..and you’ll have to find me
race- where I’ll say 1, 2, 3…race..then we’ll all race around outside with them following me, then I turn around and race into the house with them in hot pursuit, grab a few balls then race to a window and throw them out the window so they go racing back outside. It’s hilarious to watch.
If I know they’re not interested in coming, I don’t even bother trying…ie Daisy my beagle just had emergency surgery and was at the vet one to many times in the past couple weeks…so I just scooped her up in my arms and walked her into the examining room.
Poisoning a cue is the last thing I want to do…especially if there is fear or anxiety associated to what’s going to happen after they come to you.
In our case being at the vet office (as sweet as they are with Daisy)…5 times in 2wks…was more than what she could handle, but we didn’t have a choice, so I just picked her up when it was time to go into the examining room.
kate says
I forgot, I’ve also tried yoga position near the door!
For some reason…the Child’s pose, or Downward Dog…will gather all my guys close by the door, without saying anything 🙂 It’s odd I know, but George will often reciprocate a bow when I do the Downward Dog pose.
Hope Rider says
Deena and Trisha – I will have to give the treats while actually walking a try, although I will have to be very sneaky about getting them into my pocket. As soon as Miikka knows I have treats on a walk, he starts acting up. He behaves pretty well when I have treats in an obedience class setting, but not on a walk.
I don’t think the length of the walk has anything to do with it, because he sometimes flops or just digs his feet in after walking to the end of our street. He is actually about the size of a small beagle, and if we are hiking in the woods, will walk for miles without flopping, dragging or otherwise delaying. The flopping and/or stalling seems to be mood related – boredom with the walk path perhaps? Or humidity – we are in Arkansas, and it can be pretty hot and humid. We try walking him in the early morning, or late evening, neither seems to change the behavior. We have several different routes to walk, but since we are in the suburbs, apart from a local park, we can’t get out in the woods every day.
He also has selective deafness about coming in from the yard, but that is another story, and usually involves the scent of the raccoons that keep raiding our bird feeders.
Frances says
Love those ideas, Kate!
Denise says
Hope, my Hugh has some serious anxiety issues (on top of his normal Spitzy attitude! Life with him is seriously interesting…) and about a year and a half ago went through a period where he’d stop dead in his tracks and stare at an empty space on the street. VERY spooky late at night, believe me! Sometimes I could figure out what he was staring at but more than once we ran home with me thinking “My dog sees ghosts!” and my hair standing on end… Still have no idea what he was staring at but his doctor changed his meds a bit and, together with continued practice at relaxing and lots of positive reinforcement on walks (mostly very high value treats but lots of happy talk and praise too), he gradually worked through it and as his confidence improved, he stopped doing it. Just something to consider – your dog may not have such issues but I thought I’d throw it out there.
I love all the suggestions for reinforcing the Come and am going to try lots of them. Nancy, your solution with Vanya is especially intriuging and I can’t wait to give it a try!
Arlene says
Hi Tricia, managed to get on to yur blog at last, boy I wish I had time to read all these comments, I used to wish I go more, but in reality, I wouldn’t have time to pay the attention they deserve, but reading the problem [?] you have with Hope and recall, it did make me smile, I did get a glance of your ‘genetics vs training’ interesting topic, Genetics does play a large part in the biddability of dogs, as some are bred to work with and for man in close proximity, others in their space, e.g terriers vs guarding types I’ve thankfully never had a problem with recalling but I teach from very young and don’t allow the dog to go any further than 5 yards away without calling them back, When it came to actual comp training I found that some were easier than others, biddability in training is IMO genetic, it certainly makes it easier, Tango was born and bred from comp lines which made his training easier, but he still has his own characteristics, such as nosiness, which makes some exercises difficult. Though that is a help with recall, as I’ve always found that if you ignore the dog and pay attention to another, my favourite way is to go down to ground level and start scratching and make exciting noises, invite another dog to join in and you bet the miscreant will come over to see what the h**ll is going on. I’ve been on the PC almost all day, catching up, Tango wasn’t too well last night and he’s been asleep most of the day. so I’m taking advantage. I’m hoping to put up the other part of my judging day.
Looks as though you’ve got a good following so it must be an interesting site. so I’ll come back to your blog again
Beth says
Hope: My stubborn boy Corgi will sometimes plant his feet and refuse to walk. He’s very opinionated, he much prefers the park of the woods to street-walks, and that is where we usually goes. But when it’s very wet out, or in the winter when it’s dark after work, we walk through the neighborhood and he gets bored and is NOT afraid to tell me he’s unhappy. He was one of those very bossy puppies/young adults who would sit down and bark at me if he disagreed with my commands. Now at 3 he’s generally much more polite but still sometimes tests me.
What I would do is before I got to the sticky spot, I would chirp my most cheerful “Jack, heel!” to him and the second he fell into position and looked up at me, he’d get a treat. I would gradually increase the amount of time I expected him to keep walking before getting a treat, but we spent a very long time with the instant-reward method to work through the stubborn fits. I used the same method to teach him to walk on past other dogs (he thinks ever dog on the planet, except for the dominant-protective ones, is his friend and he likes to stop to say “hi”).
He will also sometimes plant those feet when he realizes our walk has turned towards home, unless he’s very very tired, since he does not like to go back in.
But the secret is definitely to start rewarding before the stickies set in, which is why it’s important to try to figure out what your dog’s triggers are so you can anticipate the hissy fits. In my dog’s case it’s always when we choose to go one way and he would prefer to go another.
Beth says
Whoops, that will teach me not to hit “submit” before reading. Above post filled with typos. Sorry!
FrancesL says
I have a 5 yr old Japanese ChinX who refuses to come in. She was a rescue and came to me completely untrained at 2. She hides in the corner of the fence, behind a group of trees. I have to climb over the stump and squeeze between the trees to pick her up and bring her in. Somehow, my 8 yr old Schnoodle has taught herself to go and get Pixie and bring her in for me. I take Abby to the door, say Ready, then open the door with the command to Get Pixie. Abby runs to Pixie, barks at her, spins and then runs to the door, with Pixie following. Abby always gets a treat for this. Saves me a lot of time and frustration. If Pixie does not come, Abby will go out again and again, until she does.
Angela says
I told my obedience instructor about this discussion, and she said that she also uses jealousy to help with recalls. When she calls her 7 dogs, only the first to arrive gets a treat. Talk about motivation!
JJ says
Back to that cross-species idea.
So, I told another friend about this idea since she has a young puppy and grandkids who are over all the time. She said, “It works with cats too.” This person used to feed her puppy on the back patio. Then she wanted to start feeding the puppy in the kitchen. (All a long story.) For days she could not get the puppy to eat in the kitchen. Then one day the puppy was in the kitchen and my friend fed the cat right there. The puppy gave a little woof and then wanted to be fed right there too.
This story got me thinking about our earlier discussion about imitation. Many of these jealousy stories seem to me to be examples of “imitation motivated by jealously”. It got me to thinking about all the different reasons that might create imitation behavior.
em says
Jealousy can be a great tool, but competition can sometimes backfire, especially if there is a big physical difference in the competing dogs. At the dog park, treat-handout times are commonplace and a good occasion to reinforce good behaviors (sit, come, go deeper into the water (we call that one ‘feeding the fish’…we toss milkbones into the clean water of the creek or lake to get the dogs to swim or wade in deeply, cleaning mud and sand off of themselves before going home). A bit of competition can be a good thing, but a shy or submissive dog will sometimes lose interest altogether if they feel like they are being shouldered aside by a more eager playmate. Even if their energy is pretty well-matched, a dog who is slower than the others can quickly become discouraged if you don’t make an effort to ‘stack the deck’ so that they win once in a while. For example, Otis will go much deeper into the creek if he’s by himself because he moves so gingerly in the water that he almost NEVER gets to the cookie first. Likewise, he won’t go after a stick or ball in the water, which he does like to do, unless it is really clear that no one else is trying for it. He’s learned that he won’t win, so he doesn’t bother to try. In order to keep him engaged, I’ve had to become very adept at timing throws while no one else is watching. 🙂
KateS says
I just ran across this blog and at such an opportune time! Please forgive me if I go on too much. About 8 months ago I adopted a little Boston Terrier who has since turned 5. My little creature has some issues, sometimes, with other dogs and this comes into play in this recall regard in that in the time I’ve had him he has rarely been off-leash. We live in New York City where the only opportunity to be off-leash is the early morning/late evenings in the parks. With him being iffy with other dogs I have not even gone out at this dog heavy time.
Good thing too, because I have discovered that he has a miserable recall. When we have been in really rural areas I have had him off leash without a problem. I am the one that can throw the ball afterall, and that is worth everything in the world to him.
In my mother’s house which is very big I began using a whistle to get him to come. I did so knowing that when I get frustrated my “come” easily shows this and a specific whistle is a specific whistle, it can’t really get mean sounding.
Ack, there’s too much to say, I’ve been feeling overwhelmed with all that I need to still work with, but where this really became obvious is just over two weeks ago when I had ankle surgery. I am now unable to get up to go get him. I’ve been trying to look at this time as a great chance to work on all sorts of training since I’m not going anywhere, fast at least. I noticed in particular that the whistle will get him to come towards me about 50% of the time which is still an improvement. However, little Lexington rarely gets close enough for me to touch him.
My thought that I had today was to combine the come whistle with the command to “touch” my open palm with his nose. Today I worked with rewarding his coming with both treats and ball throws. I’ve worked with “touch” before and I run into the same problems as I generally do with him that, I think, must have come from someone training him in less than great ways before I got him. He will touch, get the reward, then come, touch, reward, and then he comes, looks at my hand, and backs away. I will then withhold the ball or treat and look at the view, or pick up a book and then try again. It really seems that if I give anything in the way of negative feedback, except for the mildest of “oh, too bad”, he seems unable to even comprehend commands at all.
Ok, maybe this is not exactly on topic afterall, except for the fact that he is definitely picking and choosing as to when he comes to me. If anyone has made it through this, could you give me any advice on how I could proceed, given that I can’t easily get up these days and won’t be able to for at least five more weeks.
Rita Arntzen, Norway says
My little (medium) free-spirited and constantly-testing-me 4-year-old mixed breed girl loves chasing balls and being off-leash. Although she has never left my sight when outside, she used to refuse to get back in the car or let me take her by the collar. We went to work with plenty of rewards, I’d say “lay down”, go over to her, touch her collar and say “go play some more!” etc. and now she never runs from me anymore and jumps into the car herself when I hold my arm out towards the open crate.
She must have learned as a puppy that hands grab and take things from her because she would not let go of her ball. I spent most of last winter tossing her tennis ball from my tv chair, asking her to bring it back. When she refused, I made a number of eating a piece of chocolate. After a while she started shoving the ball into my lap and finally gave me the ball in my hand in exchange for a microscopic piece of chocolate. Now we can play outside with a ball and a Chuck-It and she brings the ball back to me. She’ll test me every so often, “losing” the ball on the run back. Then I freeze into a statue and am no fun at all until she finds the ball and puts it in my hand.
Frances says
Sounds good, Rita – but I am paranoid about dogs and chocolate ever since I discovered just how little it could take to kill my tiny dogs. Less than half a teaspoonful of cocoa could do it … I hardly have it in the house anymore, after visitors would leave it lying around where the dogs could reach it. I am sure you are staying well within your bigger dog’s capacity, but it still frightens me!
Laure-Anne Visele says
Hi Patricia. Love your books, by the way.
Great article, thanks for posting it.
I am having a related problem with Roger, my 5 year old fox terrier mix.
I am hooked on rewarding with treats, and never seem to have the heart of thinning out my ratio. He has become treat-wise, and in a walk or any other setting, he soon susses out that it’ll be a voice-only reward day, and just doesn’t work that keenly. By work, I mean sitting or coming back when called. I don’t want to make my cues irrelevant, so I don’t like non-compliance situations.
Thankfully, he hasn’t become habituated to the food rewards and continues to work keenly for even a measly piece of his normal kibble.
I think half the problem is that he’s a shelter rescue and I guess I am overcompensating for his past of neglect.
Thankfully, he is an extremely balanced dog and does not have any behaviour excesses of notes.
How can I unhook myself from that vicious circle?
Laure -Anne
Eileen says
We have a 3 and a half year old border collie/weimaraner. Up until about a month ago we would say, “walk” and she would dance around, very excited, until we took her on her morning or evening walk. Now, however, we get her into her harness and all is well until it comes time to cross the door threshold. Then she puts on the breaks and refuses to go one step further. I had tried coaxing her, often times for 10 minutes, until i gave up. Now I just leave her and go jogging on my own. I come back and get breakfast and go about my day. She gets so upset that I am ignoring her that she practically begs me to go for a walk within 45 minutes of me returning from my jog. However, that is not the end of her stubbornness. Once we get onto the walk if we head in a direction with which she disagrees she puts the breaks on again. This one I haven’t figured a way around yet and often times we stand there until she forgets why she is protesting. I hope she grows out of this phase very soon. As we head back to school i will have less time for her to “come around.”