This is one of the questions I am most frequently asked, and with good reason. It’s a tough one. It’s also relevant to my own life right now, after having just introduced a new dog into the household, and having to make split-second decisions several times in the first few weeks.
I should say first off that there is no ultimate truth here. No research, no data, just my opinion based on experience with thousands of client dogs and plenty of my own. Certainly there is no dearth of opinions about when to intervene when dogs “get into it,” from the extremes of “I never intervene, I just let them work it out” to the opposite attitude of calling a dog off instantly, or correcting her, for a hard eye or a quiet growl. You won’t be surprised to learn that I live in the middle ground, not being a fan of black and white but rather the depth of color in between.
There are some extremes that I do find helpful, at least in deciding when to intervene. If I am absolutely sure that one dog is going to harm another either physically or emotionally, I will intervene without hesitation. On the other hand, if I am equally sure that a dog is merely using an appropriate social signal in a context that requires feedback from one dog to another, I’ll stay quiet. For example, every once in a while a male dog would mount my intact male Border Collie Luke. Luke was brilliant with other dogs; he adored them and worked hundreds of dog-dog aggression cases with professionalism and finesse. However, he didn’t like being mounted, and if that happened he would stop and freeze, turn his head and make direct eye contact with the offending dog. If it didn’t get off he would emit a quiet, low growl.
I never said a word, because 1) I believed that Luke’s behavior was within normal social boundaries–dogs don’t have to put up with everything and anything another dog does to them, and 2) I knew that Luke had never been in anything even approaching a dog fight, and 3) I also knew that if I said one word Luke would stop whatever he was doing and come to me. My only concern the few times that it happened was the other dog’s response; I’d watch to be sure that the other dog also responded appropriately, if it tensed up I would clap my hands and encourage us all to continue walking.
However, I’ve also seen and had dogs who over reacted in ways that were not appropriate either in context or intensity. Willie can be in this category; at times he appears to lose his temper, charging after another dog with teeth bared and growls emitting like angry thunder claps. This happens rarely now, thank heavens, but it still can happen. Willie did it once to tiny Tootsie, when he was tired and grumpy, and might have been in some pain from his shoulder. But that still wasn’t acceptable behavior, not to me anyway. Tootsie had merely walked by him and he reacted as if she’d broken all rules of canine citizenship. In that case I used my reflexive “Hey!” to stop him, and then backed him up in space and shamed him with a low, quiet voice. “Willie! What did you do?” I put him in his crate after that, not so much as punishment but to let him ponder what had happened and to rest up and prevent another incident.
But those two cases are relatively easy ones; it’s that great grey area in between “appropriate” and “inappropriate” that makes it difficult to decide, isn’t it? How do we always know if the behavior is occurring in an “appropriate context”? Or if the dog is going to stop after a growl or snap? Argh, no wonder this is such a common question, because there are so many variables to consider, and every case requires a custom approach. The best we can do is be aware of all the variables, which I’ve listed here in hopes you’ll add your own wisdom to the mix.
Context: Willie went after Maggie over a stick the first week that they were together. They were running together in the big pasture, and Maggie was trying to grab a hold of the stick in Willie’s mouth. They hadn’t yet been together in the house, and clearly weren’t comfortable with each other except in a large, open area. Because I knew Willie was still tense about the new dog, I said “Hey” to stop him. I just wasn’t confident that he’d stop himself. Was I right to have intervened? Perhaps Willie would have stopped himself and nothing else would have happened. There’s no way to know, but I erred on the side of caution, and since they are great friends now, and run together while both holding a stick, my decision couldn’t have been too wrong.
Intensity: Did the reaction fit the stimulus? (As in, “does the punishment fit the crime”?) Say dog Bloomer walks over to dog Gracie while Gracie is chewing on her favorite chew toy. A hard stare from Gracie to say “Go away” doesn’t seem to be inappropriate here, given that it is simply a warning to the other dog. But charging after Bloomer, with teeth flashing and spittle flying would be an over reaction, since all Bloomer did was walk toward the toy. Of course, context comes back into play here: If Bloomer has been mugging Gracie relentlessly for weeks on end, Gracie may have just had it and needed to make her point with more intensity.
Knowledge of the Dogs: I am much more likely to intervene if I know little about the dogs. For example, if an unfamiliar dog comes running up to one of my dogs, tail up, mouth closed and body tense, I’m going to get between it and my dog and end the interaction. If I’m around two dogs I barely know and one begins to go after the other, I’ll probably say “Hey!” before I have time to think about it. In both cases, I have no idea of the history of the unfamiliar dogs, and I’d rather intervene when I didn’t need to than let things go and have a full-fledged dog fight on my hands. Full disclosure here: Twenty-five years of working with serious aggression cases probably makes one more reactive than others might be. I’ve just seen far too many stitched-up dogs or cases of one dog living in terror of another to sit back and “let them work it out.” The exception to “less knowledge, more action” is if I know that a dog is potentially aggressive and may cause harm. Then, for obvious reasons, I’ll intervene in a micro-second.
Potential for Harm: As must be clear by now, I’m conservative when it comes to dog interactions. If I don’t know if a dog is going to hurt or traumatize another I’ll intervene to prevent that possibility. If I do know that one dog is probably going to cause serious trouble I’ll do more than intervene, I’ll do all I can to PREVENT it in the first place. (I’m not sure that it is possible to overemphasize the importance of prevention, but does it help if I put it in caps?) Are there cases in which dogs have been allowed to “work it out” and been fast friends after just one fight? Yes. I just heard about one. However, I have seen a gazillion dogs who fought and were badly injured, or who fought and then hated each other. Yes, sometimes dogs can “work it out” but sometimes that means serious injuries or life long trauma. It’s not worth the risk in my opinion. It’s important to emphasize that dogs don’t have to be physically hurt to be injured. Dogs can be emotionally traumatized, and I’ve met no small number of them who became dog-dog aggressive after just one incident in the dog park in which “no one got hurt…”
What about you? I’d love to hear your stories of when you’ve intervened, when you haven’t and how those experiences have shaped your behavior now. Are there times you’ve intervened and wish you hadn’t? Not intervened and wish you had?
MEANWHILE back on the farm: Besides the gorgeous weather, the best part of the weekend was Puppy Up!, the fund raiser for the Two Million Dog Foundation which raises money for comparative oncology research. It was a great success! Over 500 people and 300 dogs came to walk in support of cancer research in dogs and people. Katie, Lisa, and I from McConnell Publishing joined the Madison Pet Pals team (which raised the most money of any single group; yeah Pet Pals!). Here’s Katie (our Client Coordinator and Social Media Queen), Tim, and one of their dogs, Herk, before the walk.
Thanks to many generous people, including blog and Facebook readers (thank you so much!) I made my personal goal of $3,000. More importantly, the Madison event (Puppy Up! events will be in 34 cities this year) raised more money than any other single city, bringing in over $83,000 to put toward studying cancer in people and dogs. Special kudos go to wonder woman Beth Viney, who did more than any other to make this event a success.
Here’s a photo of squinty-eyed me and the man who began it all, Luke Robinson, who walked 2,000 miles with 2 dogs to raise money for research after losing a beloved Great Pyrenees to cancer. We are joined by his dog Indiana, who will accompany him on yet another 2,000 mile walk from the Mexican to the Canadian border. Amazing. You’ll note my face looks just like a dog’s who is overwhelmed with happiness to be greeting someone special. That’s exactly how I felt. What an honor to meet him, and what a testament to what one person can do.
This is just a small section of the walk’s participants to give you a good idea of the festivities. Lots of smiles all around, and kudos to the people who brought dogs–the dogs who came seemed comfortable and to be having a great time. I didn’t bring any of my dogs, because I knew they wouldn’t enjoy it. It appeared that a lot of people made good decisions about who to bring and who to leave home. Great work, Madison, I’m proud of you!
Alexandra says
This is a great blog article! Working at a doggy daycare and a lover of animal behavior I know there are some interactions between dogs that are necessary to get their point across. I have an alpha Australian cattle dog mix, female and spayed. Sometimes she can be a little pushy and I am not sure what signals I would look for to step in and stop her or what I should let go.
Gail says
My dog took offence when my daughter’s dog jumped up on my lap and attacked her dog.We got the 2 apart but I wondered what to do to avoid this in the future.
Petra du Toit says
Many moons ago in 2006 without the knowledge I have today I played with my Staffie and Rottie with a long rope. Play got out of hand and Rottie attacka Staffie. Not knowing how to react I went between them and got bitten badly – they hadnt lost a drop of blood. It was noisy, it sounded bad, but it was not half as serious as I read it to be. I firmly believe that my overanxious interference made things worse and I carried the damage. Today I am more relaxed when the noisea raise but body postures are not too serious. I must add that both were female and less likely ti give up. However, gaining knowledge about body language, ritualized aggression and reasons for reactive behavior taught me to watch more carefully and analyze before just jumping in and intervene. I have learnt that many timea dogs actually sort it out without inflicting serious damage, just like 2 school kids boxing in the yard and thereafter having a milkshake together. I wish more people would learn the language of their dogs and get to know their threshold before reacting and often over-reacting. This is what I try to achieve in my training school – getting to know each other and building a trusting relationship.
Anne says
Thanks for this article, as it comes at a perfect moment for me. I just (3 weeks ago) added a puppy to the house, introducing for the first time an ‘interloper’ into the pack with my 9 year old fear reactive Aussie. Snapshot is this- they’re getting along well and I find myself OBSERVING more than interacting, when I do intervene it’s to praise and reward the older dog for perfectly normal communication (hey, that’s MY toy; wait your turn at the water dish, little one, etc). At first I wanted to intervene all the time but find now that they are much more adept at figuring it out than I can be. Interesting how they can communicate in ways we’re still working to understand.
HFR says
Wow, what a wonderful day! Congratulations for all the money you raised and for beating out all the other cities! I am also in awe of people like Luke Robinson who have the courage and strength to make such a commitment and follow it through. Truly an inspiration.
I’ve had dogs all my life, but G is the first one to have a temper. When I first got her I was completely horrified that I had a dog who wasn’t the sweet bowl of sugar all my other dogs had been. I remember when she was just 8 weeks old I lifted her up in the air (to tell her how cute she was) and she went nuts. The only word for it was snarling and hissing. OMG. I thought I would cry. I mean in my mind I was now in the possession of a vicious dog. The worse thing was, I did all the wrong things (this was almost 14 years ago). I alpha rolled her, I “dominated” her, I held her up in the air until she stopped snarling. I don’t know how I didn’t create a monster, but somehow her good nature won out.
Even though she has turned out to be a wonderful dog, she is a dog with whom I have to be cautious when around other dogs (much less so now that she is a senior). I’ve always said about her, and I believe it’s true, I’ve never seen her start a fight with another dog, but if some other dog wants to ignore her signals she will gladly get into it with them. Therefore I’ve gotten very good at spotting those dogs that are either clueless or have a personality similar to hers.
The other thing that is an issue is when you have a dog who play-growls. G’s favorite thing to do is lie down with a toy between her front paws. When another dog comes up to investigate she will emit a kind of high pitched growl. She WANTS the dog to try and get it to she can grab it away at the last minute. Well, I’d say about three quarters of the dogs get it, but those that don’t understand will get angry at her and then a fight will happen. That’s where, like you say, you need to know the dogs. If not, better to err on the side of caution and just get out of there. I used to walk around the park constantly saying “She’s growling, but she’s just playing”. I sounded like a broken record.
What I find interesting are the fights that look like World War III has broken out and then they walk away with not a scratch on them. How in the world do they do that?
Noel Lee says
This is inspiring! Let me share my story and frustration. I have had Fifi (almost 7 years old) for 2.5 years and introduced another rescue dog Tata of about the same age since last November. Both of them are neutered. Fifi is friendly to dogs and human but seems to be aloof all the time – he never delves into intense playing or cuddling. I have accepted that`s his personality. I seldom see him enjoy playing with another dog, whereas though Tata is much more timid on surface, he does enjoy all sorts of interaction be it canine or human. In the beginning, Tata tried to invite Fifi to play a few times. Fifi responded but not enthusiastically. So after a few months, they hardly play. That’s ok for me. It`s also apparent that Fifi has the leading role. The only headache now is: Fifi enjoys chasing with me and barks with joy. However, he was debarked by the previous owner, so his bark is coarse and there is no difference in terms of tone when he is happy or nervous. I have observed quite a few times. When I and Fifi play chase, Tata tries to bite him on the back – sometimes end up with a mouthful of Fifi`s fur. Someone suggested to me he might be trying to join the game. He is not trying to hurt Fifi but it looks more like an expression of fear and self-protection. Is there such thing that Tata couldn`t distinguish whether Fifi is happy or angry so he did something to protect himself. A couple of times, the light attack was followed by Tata raising one leg and peeing. Fifi is not happy with this and has been tolerating. But at bad times, Fifi would turn his head and growl to Tata. On the one hand, I am not sure if I should stop Tata from doing this for fear that Tata is still delicate and sensitive, feeling insecure with me and this home. On the other hand, I can see Fifi doesn`t want to have anything with Tata any more as if they are not living in the same household. That hurts me a bit because that is not the original purpose of having a second dog. I tried searching for tips on internet but couldn`t find anything similar. Majority of articles talk about dog aggression, but to me their interaction has not elevated to aggression yet. Would someone give me some advice.
Emily says
A question about what we call “air nipping:” My dog is a spoiled only child but does have basic social skills and gets along well with most dogs outside of his own home. He has never bitten another dog or been in a fight. BUT he does do some resource guarding of his kitchen/food, his toys, his bed and his mother with other dogs (never humans). He basically nudges/herds the other dog away from those items and bites at the air a few inches back from them repeatedly. He sometimes curls his lip first but never makes a sound or growls. The other dogs don’t seem to read — or sometimes even notice — this air nipping and I step right in and take the toy or move everyone out of the kitchen to diffuse the situation. Wish I could catch it on video. Is this serious and how should I handle it?
Nancy Lee says
Hi Dr. McConnell,
I too am but haven’t always been middle ground..I have learned a lot driven by my intense interest & passion for dogs thru life and my mobile dog grooming biz..A better understanding of clues to look for (body language) has helped me evolve..I have experimented in many a relatively safe dog to dog interactions and have seen how, given maybe a 2nd or even 3rd chance to work things out between them,there can be sweet success. I love success ..what could be nicer then to make a new friend!! Thanks to them, I have tons more patience and feelings of love.
Hope this helps you some!
Nancy
Nancy
Barb says
I had such a situation last Wednesday. Cowboy and I had finished class and had stopped on the way to the car to stop and talk to one of the trainers. A young boy, about 9, came over to us being towed by an adolescent Golden retriever. I gave Cowboy permission to “Say hi”. After a few seconds, the retriever took a dominance stand over my dog. Cowboy stiffened. I know my dog. He feels it is his place to tell adolescent dogs to “Back off” and he will snap. I quickly gave him a “Let’s go” and we walked a short distance away. I made this decision mostly because I knew the boy was not in control of his dog.
I teach my dogs “Leave it” “Go say hi” and “Let’s go” when they are young and their ability to meet and greet dogs of other breeds has not fully developed.
I have been fortunate in my life to have had two dogs that were brilliant at reading and deflecting aggression in other dogs. One was a female Golden, the other was a neutered male German Shepherd. Both were attacked at different times by loose dogs while we were out walking. It was best if I remained calm, and let them use calming signals to control the situation.
I tend to err on the conservative side. I hate dog fights. I also hate human fights and violence of any kind.
I’ll be anxious to read comments by others.
emdee says
I’m so glad you wrote about this! It’s something I think about a lot. I have an adult female BC/lab/? mix who is the most wonderful, devoted, sweet, intelligent, obedient dog 95% of the time, and an over-reactive, possessive, canine bully, guard dog demon 5% of the time. She seems to just lose control sometimes, and once when I was trying to get her attention off of the strange dog she was trying to eviscerate, she whipped around and chomped down on my arm, hard — me, to whom she is deeply devoted, to whom she shows unapologetic favoritism, her PERSON. The event broke both of our hearts. So I intervened there, unsuccessfully. I’m still not sure what to do when she gets going at unfamiliar dogs; I mostly practice avoidance.
But, I also have a second dog, a young male mutt who is sweet and sunny and friendly 100% of the time. They are best buddies and share everything — a bed, even though they have multiple, toys, water bowl, and pretty much every waking moment that they aren’t physically separated. And my female is soooo good with him, even though at 6 mos old he’s a relentless pest. She is gentle, kind, patient, and loving, and while she’s way more devoted to me than she is to him (he seems 60/40, just barely in my favor…), she adores him. Except every once in a while, I’ll see one of the two following scenarios — 1) a hard stare and a growl over the toy between her paws, despite them sharing toys at all other times; 2) wrestling play that gets a little too rough, and he winds up sort of being bowled over and letting out a yelp while she ferociously growls and knocks him over repeatedly. I intervene in both situations, even though they probably fall under the “just normal dog behavior” category for other dogs, but because I know that my female dog is more than capable of NOT behaving that way, and because it seems to be a knee-jerk reaction that she isn’t totally in control of (because, if she was thinking clearly, she would act like she does the other 95% of the time), I discourage it. Given that she has some reactive/aggressive tendencies, I try to nip any sign of it in the bud ASAP. I don’t know if she was just undersocialized as a pup, or not properly cared for in the 2 years before I got her, but I don’t totally trust her when she’s in that state of mind. And she often doesn’t listen to me when she’s in her way-to-rough wrestling mode, which is also an indicator of it being a problem — she often has almost no visible reaction to my voice at all, not just a “I hear you calling, but this smells so good so I’m going to linger for a second before I respond” kind of not listening.
It’s a delicate balance though. The female is a happier dog overall since the arrival of the little ‘un, but still displays these less-than-desirable behaviors from time to time, and I’m never sure if it’s best to just let them work it out and let her be a little grumpy or pushy sometimes, or if I should try to get her to snap out of it right away. I don’t think she’d ever actually hurt him, but I also am uncomfortable even having to wonder if she would or not.
JB says
I found this post very interesting and I often see owners intervening at the dog park when the dogs are just playing. Yes, your dog is on top of mine… if you give it 30 seconds, you will see them switch places. Yes, my dog is vocal, but he’s relaxed and his tail is wagging. If your dog is coming back for more (play), they are probably enjoying the interaction. The worst is when an owner decides to scoop up a small dog and make even more of a spectacle for the waiting dogs who now want to jump up to see what the fuss is about. Any tips on how to handle helicopter dog parents at the dog park? I understand being cautious with unknown dogs, but most of the time I see folks who really don’t want their dog playing with others but still bring them to the “dog” park!
Christina says
My 2-year-old Boxer is 75 pounds of muscle, but he has a tendency toward fearfulness. I am so thankful that we came together at this time in my life, when I know what I know. Since he was a puppy, I have exposed him to lots and lots of doggy-play, but always kept an eagle eye on him and interrupted when I saw signs of fear. I just used a treat or a toy and a light tone to get him (maybe telling the other person that I needed to get going so they would corral their own dog), and went on our way. Once or twice I’ve even said, “I’m not sure Diesel’s having fun,” which always caused the other person to grab their dog. It was important to me that he never be in a situation in which he felt the need to fight another dog off. Recently, he was interacting with another dog and just as I was thinking he looked uncomfortable how best to get him out of there, he came over to me on his own. The other dog circled once and then left (his owner called?), and we walked away. In the past, I would have been much more hands off. I believe that as a consequence, he would have had many unpleasant experiences with other dogs where he felt unable to get away, and learned that I am no help in those situations, possibly concluding that fighting was the best response.
I grew up with an intact male Boxer who got into dog-fights. With Diesel, I viewed dog-meetings as classical conditioning – many repetitions of positive experiences would create good feelings in him for other dogs. I think it’s working.
Carol Wilson says
One should never underestimate the power of a loud “NO”
when problems are brewing. I have stopped charging dogs several times with an upright hand, tall posture and a loud call. It is usually to save the smaller dogs that come chasing after my big Shepherd. I do not like dogs on the loose. 🙁
EmilySHS says
Oh golly… such an amazing topic. I have to do a lot of dog-dog introductions at the shelter, both to match dogs for play groups and to introduce shelter dogs to resident dogs of potential adopters, and it’s often with dogs I don’t know well or at all. Maybe in another 12 years I’ll be comfortable doing it–or not 🙂 As a general rule, I’m far less controlling for purely physical fights with puppies and adolescents, though I do intervene pretty readily on any signs of fear or bullying. What I finally came to after years and years–which really helped–was to stop focusing so much on “raw behavior”–growling, snarling, posturing, etc.–and focus instead on whether the dogs are effectively communicating or not. I used to freak if Muffy ever growled at Fido over a toy; now I watch to see–if Fido backs away going, “Sorry, there, Muffy, I get you,” and takes the signal appropriately, I’ll give them a lot more room to negotiate. On the other hand, if the dogs aren’t doing a clear give-and-take of information and respecting each other’s signals, I’d a heap rather intervene too early than too late. I figure we can always try again with more warm-up, but we can’t take a fight back once it happens.
One form of “intervention” I have become a huge fan of is a lot more verbal coaching of puppies and young dogs when they’re interacting–particularly marking and praising good behaviors. I noticed for example that my Catahoula mix was a little stingy on her play bows, so every time I saw her doing it, I marked it enthusiastically, “Yes, what a good girl, yeah!” and yep, before long, she started bowing a lot more often and taking better micro-pauses in her play. I think anything we can do to encourage our dogs to be generous and clear social signalers is going to help–the dogs that are either are poor senders or poor receivers need that extra help and my experience (mostly hoards of nerdy adolescents) suggests that they do respond to human coaching, too.
My best non-interventions–I will let adult dogs act as play monitors for puppies and adolescents, if I totally know and trust the adult, he or she has a history of being good at it, known stellar bite inhibition and they don’t find it upsetting. We’ve had some shelter dogs over the years that were just so amazingly good with other dogs–trust with your life, bomb-proof, able to negotiate virtually anything–those dogs, I wouldn’t dream of intervening with short of blood, since they could and did give master classes in canine social signaling. Why some of them are so very very fine and so many others are socially challenged… hmmm, would I love to know.
Barbara K says
This is always an interesting subject for me as I foster for several dog rescues in the Pacific NW and am the Rescue Director – West for the Kerry Blue Terrier Foundation.
It seems most of the Kerries getting surrendered are described by their owners as “dog-aggressive” and that’s the primary reason they’re surrendered. There are many now who’re aging-out as are their owners who have passed on or are moving to assisted living places that do not accept dogs.
A number of the Kerries seem to have been “misplaced” by shelters or have been acquired through other sources and people have not done their homework to determine if that “really cute dog” is the breed for them. In many cases they are not.
I have no choice but to accept the owner’s description of this dog-dog aggressive Kerry. And of course trying to find a foster home for such a dog is next to impossible.
I’ve been watching your DVD “Dog-Dog Aggression” so am learning a lot. I’ve been searching for some sort of evaluation guideline to help me determine if these “dog-dog aggressive” Kerries are truly that or if they’re dog-reactive and whether or not it’s the same thing.
Any help or suggestions you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Laurie says
I adopted a 6 month old male pit bull, Pickles, almost two years ago, believing that he and my then 4 year old male lab, Moose, would be best buds, because my lab is mellow and pretty dog social (I know now he is dog tolerant). Boy, was I wrong. After the first few months during which Pickles would … well, bully Moose, their relationship had completely deteriorated. Any time my pit bull would get over-aroused (which was often), he would resort to grabbing Moose’s legs and yanking them out from under him. After several months of this, any time he walked by, Moose would bare his teeth and air snap. I was told by a balanced trainer that they would “work it out,” and that intervention was not necessary. After another month of this (obviously) failing to help either dog, I talked to a force-free trainer, who suggested time outs any time Pickles grabbed Moose. For example – I would say “that’s enough,” and if Pickles didn’t stop what he was doing, I would say “too bad,” and calmly walk him to his crate, or tie his leash to a door handle, where he would stay for 30 seconds to a minute. Initially, there would be about 30 timeouts in a row (no exaggeration, as soon as he came out of timeout, he would sprint to Moose and start grabbing his legs), and gradually, after months of consistency, it would happen maybe once a week, and now, a year and a half later, it happens maybe once every few months. Although they aren’t “best friends,” they peacefully coexist, which is all I ask for. Success.
Valerie Barry says
It’s an interesting topic to discuss. I’m a trainer and do occasionally have my dogs help me with various situations. It’s a blessing to have a truly socially skilled dog – much like your Luke, I had a dog who was extremely skilled with other dogs and I would rarely intervene as she was very good at handling most situations and was never involved in any dog fight during her 17 years. Dogs just seemed to understand what she was saying and would back off when asked or respond in an appropriate manner and learned their social skills from her. If any dog looked as though they were thinking of not doing what they should, she was very capable of taking things up an appropriate notch. However, I also made sure she looked comfortable and seemed to be enjoying helping me. She really seemed to get a kick out of it – especially working with puppies! Certainly as she aged, eyesight dimmed and hearing diminished her skills changed and I chose at an early point to “retire” her. As she aged, her reaction to some things between our own dogs seemed to occasionally be timed wrong or perhaps her responses were slowed due to her age – but she kept trying to run a tight ship so we did occasionally intervene when it was clear that it annoyed or confused the other dogs potentially causing a problem. She was one of a kind.
My now oldest dog is also very socially appropriate and enjoys being very bossy but she is not nearly as skilled with other dogs if they aren’t interested in backing off or listening to her. Our newly adopted young dog quickly discovered that she’s just all bark – so we intervene often so the older one doesn’t get hassled unnecessarily if there is no “back off” response from the young one. She is a wonderful “neutral” dog though and she does help with me often with leash reactivity clients.
Between my own dogs, if there is a noisy disagreement – I will usually remove whatever is causing the problem or remove the dogs if things aren’t perfectly clear to me – “if you can’t play nice, then no one is playing”. The young one gets crate time for needlessly hassling her elder and the older one gets reminded that she can just leave the area instead of yelling back or stealing too many toys!
Like you, Patricia, with dogs I’m unfamiliar with – I will intervene early based entirely on body language from one or both until I become more familiar with them. We often incorporate play in our classes – very short, leashed sessions with lots of intervention at first and by the end of 6 weeks, it’s very gratifying to see previously very intense dogs playing together that you thought would never be able to do so. Properly monitored play can be so instructive for young or unskilled dogs – it’s such a reinforcement for most dogs that it’s a good teaching tool. We intervene in a neutral manner if we see stiffness, speeding up of play (or stiff slowing down), mounting shoulder or butts, up high play, etc. – separate the dogs, wait for a visible sign of relaxing and then potentially back to play. It’s endlessly fascinating to watch dogs interact and play!
Patricia Savage says
I could use some advice from folks. I had a black sable german shepherd with a bunch of drive (he died of old age over a year ago). He could be reactive to dogs who had too much energy and approached him too fast. He could make friends and pal around with other dogs once he had time to get to know them. We live in the suburbs and along with many other people with dogs, walk a greenway around a local lake.
From the time he was a puppy, he seemed to have a bull’s eye painted on him. People would say that my dog is fine with puppies and their unleashed dogs would charge with eyes blazing, teeth bared, ruff up. Being a bit of a newbie, I let go of the leash so he could run into the lake and then I would face off the dogs until the owner retrieved them, along saying, he just wants to play. I’m still not sure how I should have handled the situation.
Sometimes I would see a dog coming who looked relaxed, Loki would have his nose need in the ground and as far as I could tell, would not even be aware of another dog coming. Other dog would get close to us. Since other dog was not staring or pulling at leash, I would continue to leave loose leash and would just ignore oncoming dog. As soon as dog comes close, deep growls, teeth and jump my dog.
Both of us got a bit paranoid about other dogs. I could put him on a down and tell him to leave it, walk away from him and he would totally ignore other dogs. Other times, I could tell he would be getting ready to instigate something and would get between. Other times, being a novice at dog communications, I would miss the signs.
I want to be able to safely walk my next dog at the park and am just totally unsure how to go about this. I plan on doing puppy classes and am going to try to find someone in our area who can help me to better read incoming (other dog) and outgoing (my dog) dog behavior. Any suggestion would be helpful.
Kat says
These discussions fascinate me. How do I know when it’s time to intervene? Answer: I just do. I seldom intervene between my two because Ranger is so very good about staying in control of himself and at managing Finna. At the park I intervene when it feels like things are getting out of hand, that’s really the only way I can describe it. If pushed I’d say things like, if the pitch of the play changes, or the focus intensifies, the arousal level goes up, bodies get stiffer, weight shifts, and a host of subtle signs that are really hard for me to spell out clearly. Most of the time when play is ratcheting up to a point where it could spark into conflict Ranger intervenes. If he hasn’t separated the dogs most likely to react inappropriately or hasn’t distracted the dog that’s getting wound up I might intervene. When I intervene it’s usually by urging the dogs to be eeeeeaaasy, eeeaasy. Or interrupting them by walking between them. My goal is to defuse any conflict before it happens.
A lot of it is, as you say, how well you know the dog and the nature of the dog in question. I trust Ranger to handle himself in most circumstances and only intervene in his activities when he is unsettling the humans. Ranger loves to play with sound effects and sometimes his play growling worries other people. I’ve never seen a dog take it amiss because Ranger’s very good at choosing his playmates. I can’t imagine ever trusting Finna to the extent I trust Ranger. Ranger is a thoughtful, gentle soul; Finna is all drive and focus and that focus often means she’s not paying any attention to social cues.
Katy says
My Claire-dog, in her younger days, was like HFR describes her dog – she never started a fight but she was not one to walk away from a fight, either. In her youngest days, she over-reacted a bit to other dogs being rude, but as she matured, she was very appropriate in signaling displeasure when a dog tried to hump her or chin her. The problem was if that other dog was unreceptive of the message, especially if it was a bigger dog. I learned, as you mentioned, to call her away from such unwanted attentions, and that usually works. Also like HFR’s G, Claire-dog play growls quite ferociously, although she thankfully never does that with dogs she does not know well.
My male dog, on the other hand, is a big chicken, and over-reacts to new dogs that are enthusiastic about greeting him, especially if he is on-leash. I have learned to always intervene with him or else it goes badly. He used to be good with other dogs but then he got attacked, by some one of the “let them work it” out camp, and although he was not physically damaged, no amount of work has overcome that fear.
My newest girl I thought was fine with other dogs, based on data to date, but we had an incident in agility class two weeks ago that has me confused. She was mobbed by a non-aggressive off-leash dog at the beginning of class and responded a little dramatically, though not completely without warrant. The other owner wanted to let them work it out, but I was really uncomfortable with it, particularly since my cattle dog was on-leash. Our trainer got the other dog under control and we let the dogs sniff a bit while both on leash, though I called my girl to me whenever I saw her tensing up. They were okay, but forty minutes later, without any clear provocation, my girl jumped off the dog walk and pitched into the other dog, who was then on leash. I’ve not had this dog too long, so I was not wholly surprised that she did not respond to my vocal commands while that aroused, but I actually had no fear of her and picked her up (maybe a dumb thing to do). I crated her immediately, which she took really well, and even when the other dog was off-leash and started approaching the crate, she was calm .
Now I am in that interesting place of trying to figure out what to do next time we are approached by an off-leash dog while my Al is on-leash. Frankly, it has never been a problem before, so I’m not sure what is going on. But in the meantime, I am making sure that I have cheese (aka Al’s biggest motivator) in class so I can redirect her attention. It worked last week and she was relaxed enough even when the other dog was off-leash that she let me rub her belly – but I don’t know what would happen if that particular dog comes up to us off-leash again. Frankly, I don’t want to find out, since my boy was so traumatized by his negative interactions in the past, so I am definitely erring on the more cautious side in the future with this one.
Janet Warner says
I am such a nervous Nellie….I am never sure how far appropriate is. I have friends that tell me to relax….that it was a proper correction…but I have had dogs get in fights and I wasn’t there to intervene in time.
I have an intact male now, the first in over 17 years.
To my surprise, he is really good with other dogs.
We have a visiting male dog here and the visitor got over the kennel wall and my dog and he have played non-stop ever since.
Would I have allowed them to play if it weren’t for his escaping? No….way to Nervous for this Nellie.
megan says
I have had a female jrt for 10 years. She has been targeting my male jrt since she was 7mo. I have always received the worst of it when breaking up the fights. I have never felt confident she wasn’t actually trying to murder him (but very confident that she WAS). She has attacked a few other dogs in her lifetime. While little/no damage she did appear to be attaching herself via her teeth vs just getting information. I think the majority of dogs can work things out with posture and bluster (even the type that “go big”). There are some that are tapping into something more primitive and dangerous.
Steph says
We took our dog with us on a weekend visit with friends at their house. Their dog was wary of my dog, but he tried to warm her up to him all weekend – lots of I’m friendly signals, lots of increasingly exaggerated play invitations. We finally got them to play tug, and my dog was not selfhandicapping at all (he will with other games and other kinds of object-play, but with tug he’s in it to win it). He won, then proceeded to turn away to chew/rip at the toy. Friends’ dog went to grab the toy to play again, and my dog went stiff. Friends’ dog air snapped at him, which she’d done a few times earlier. Instead of backing off like he’d done all weekend, my dog snapped back. That got a fast Hey! from me and he got backed up away from the toy. She was within her rights to try to get the toy to play again, and he was being rude. He and I have been working on tug.
At the dog park, I watch dogs as they approach. I’ve gotten good at identifying dogs that are just too high intensity for us (dragging their owner, hackles up, barking at the gate) and we will move on if they come in. Though I do gender profile – high intensity females might get a sniff, but high intensity males are a no go.
Sarah says
What a great post and thoughtful comments. It is so interesting to read about everyone’s experiences. As a member of a multi-dog household (6 currently, with regular guest dogs on top of that) and as a helper-trainer at agility classes, I have really found that my approach to this has evolved over time.
When I brought home a poorly socialized 11 month old foxhound to join my very appropriate 2 yo pit mix and very poorly socialized, grouchy 4 yo beagle, I let the beagle have free reign in correcting the foxhound’s horrendous behaviour. I didn’t sufficiently consider the poor social skills they both brought to the situation – neither is good at giving or receiving dog communication. 8 years later, their pattern of provocation (foxhound) and rage (beagle) is as strong as ever. Although this cycle hasn’t resulted in physical fights (they have fought in other, unrelated circumstances), they clearly do not like each other. I think they have each suffered emotionally from this. I really wish I had intervened.
More recently, bringing home two puppies over the last few years (Weimaraners, who would grow to be large, energetic dogs), I more tried to take a supporting role in helping my older dogs give the puppies feedback about their behavior. If adult gave feedback and puppy didn’t listen, puppy would be redirected or timed out, and adult would be praised for their excellent tolerance. (Just this evening watched the now 9 yo foxhound engage the 11 month-old Weim puppy for a good 10 minutes of leaping about play – that foxhound would grump bitterly if prior puppy came within twenty feet, three years ago.)
As for potential physical fights, I long ago rejected the idea of letting dogs work it out. Playing, even noisily and physically, is a completely different thing. I have multiple times experienced my dogs full out trying to kill each other, with zero inclination to stop themselves. We’ve had multiple vet visits and stitches, and I count myself lucky that these fights haven’t resulted in a death or more severe maiming (yes, the emotional trauma from these situations has been obvious, and is also a problem).
For our dogs, I know their triggers for serious fights and I absolutely manage and/or intervene. With guest dogs in my house, dogs at agility classes, or strange dogs out in the world, I am extremely conservative about interactions, redirecting at the first sign. Frankly, I just don’t think it is worth the risk. I feel like I can always find another opportunity for dogs to socialize, with other better matched dogs or in a more comfortable setting. Not worth risk to the dogs, physically or emotionally, or to me, physically or emotionally!
Gail says
I love your articles! This one is great, so often we do hear the “let them work it out” but as you stated, at what cost. Nobody wants to live hyper vigilant but prevention is everything. As always, thank you!
Shalea says
Unfortunately, the time or two that I would have most wanted to be able to intervene more effectively involved off-leash dogs and my dog on a leash.
Barbara K says
Megan,
Get yourself a tennis racket at a garage sale. It’s easier to use than your hands in getting two fighting dogs apart. It also keeps you from getting bitten. You can also use it to “steer” the dogs to a room with a door, get one inside and shut the door.
I have a friend who uses one of those fly-swatters that’s shaped like a tennis racket (shorter handle) that delivers a mild shock. (They’re battery-powered.) I haven’t gotten one as I have pretty good luck with the tennis racket and I have several gates in my house as I do rescue.
Barbara
Rachael says
I struggle the most deciding when to intervene when it’s a combination of a playful dog and a nervous one, or a big dog and a small one. I’m blessed with a beautiful herding-something mix–Quenya–that doesn’t have an aggressive bone in her body. We go to the local dog park occasionally and there is always that shy dog that doesn’t really belong there. Most of the time the dogs themselves warm up slowly, but I usually call my dog off if the other dog looks uncomfortable at all–both for my dog’s sake and the shy one’s. What I don’t understand is why the owners of shy dogs never say anything unless it’s “Oh, you’re fine Clifford–go play!” etcetera, while poor Clifford is trying to crawl under their shoes. Sigh. Quenya is a 40lb, 3 year old bundle of playful energy and can overwhelm the timid dog without meaning to with play-bows and running around in circles. I always hate it when she does get snarled at just for saying hello, because–and this may be anthropomorphic but I’m saying it anyway–she looks very hurt when it happens. She trots up politely, ducks her head and tilts her ears back, stops about a foot away and sniffs, aiming for the other dog’s side/rear doing everything right, and then SNARL/SNAP. She’ll always turn and look at me with this sad sort of “He doesn’t like me…” expression. So I manage her in dog park/strange dog meetup situations a lot simply because I want her to keep her dog-shaped rose colored glasses.
I also own a tri Cavalier male who doesn’t understand the dog species is capable of play, and a female Pug who likes to play until she gets sick of Quenya chasing and squashing her. Both are five, and I’ve had the pug her whole life and the Cavalier about a year. I never intervene with my group as the only one who ever gets snarly is the pug and she quits the moment the offending dog gets out of her space. I may be incredibly lucky, but none of my three are even resource guarders. Unless the cat bothers them–poor Feather kitty never gets ANYTHING one of the dogs has.
Al Magaw says
one of the services I provide is therapy for dogs with behavior problems – admittedly, I get some pretty bad dogs sent to me – dogs that other trainers have given up on or wanted nothing to do with them in the first place, so my methods are likely different than a pet owner’s would be, or a trainer who mostly teaches obedience – the dogs that come for aggression issues are often over the top aggressive and my goal is to avoid any and all incidents – the first thing I do is take him/her/them for a good tongue lolling run – once their excess energy has been worked off, I do a “supervised” introduction – two handlers, one for each dog, hold their respective dog by the collar with one hand, and under the belly with the other hand, then starting with the least aggressive dog, place it’s nose to the butt of the other dog, then reverse the procedure with the other dog – seldom does it take more than one or two days of runs and introductions to get past the worst of the aggression – I’ve had very good results with this program – there is a lot more involved to build a dog that will not be aggressive under any but the most extreme provocation, but the exercise and introductions play a major roll in the success of the program
Frances says
Fascinating discussion. I have toy dogs, which adds another dimension – even a friendly dog can cause damage if large and lacking in self control. Fortunately Sophy (papillon) has outstanding skills in reading other dogs and acting appropriately – I have even seen her persuade a wildly reactive Staffy to greet politely. He was muzzled, on leash, and well controlled by his owner who has been working hard on his problems, or I would not have let her make the experiment! Sophy kept her distance, looked away, sniffed the ground, moved in sideways, while he stayed relaxed, and eventually something in his behaviour told her he was ready to exchange greetings. A brief nose sniff, and we all went our separate ways. But I step in to protect her from big bouncy pups, or from any dog that she indicates cannot be trusted – I decided early on that I did not want my pups to decide that the safest default greeting was a snark, and that we would all be much happier if they knew that I could be trusted to protect them. Fortunately we very rarely meet an aggressive off leash dog; far more often they are inappropriately over friendly.
At home I tolerate a certain amount of food and treat guarding, usually just ensuring fair shares for all. If it escalates into snapping I intervene. I was ultra careful for the first few months after bringing Poppy home, and again as she reached maturity, after reading how badly things can go wrong between two bitches, but rewarding appropriate interactions and nipping squabbles in the bud seems to have worked. Guarding from cats is only allowed if the cat is actually attempting to take the food, otherwise it counts as Teasing the Cats, which is a no-no.
Robert says
I would like to hear any suggestions given to Noel Lee (May 5, 2014 at 12:42 pm) as I have a very similar problem.
I got an 8 week old border collie male when my other border collie female was 6 months old. Koko, the female, didn’t seem too interested in Marley, the male. Marley loves interacting with humans and, especially, with other dogs. Koko loves playing fetch, almost obsessively and will ignore most dogs and people.
Now they are older, when we go out to the park they are both off the leash. Female Koko will play fetch, but male Marley either runs after her (sometimes biting her neck or paws), or plays with other dogs (he does not bite other dogs). I could go out with them without playing fetch with Koko, but feel this would be a shame for her.
So, to the point of my concern, should I intervene when Marley is running after Koko biting her neck and paws? Koko doesn’t seem too bothered by his ‘interference’ but occasionally seems to give up playing when he is in his ‘chase’ mode as if to say “I can’t be bothered if he’s going to attack me all the time”.
Trisha says
I’ve read every comment and am dying to jump in but am slammed with “last-week-of-UW class-/big-demo-today/have-to-write-exam/sheep-Barbie-with-two-day-old-lambs-now-very-sick/husband-sick-t00/fencer-here-at-dark-thirty-this-morning-to-build-new-fence” stuff. I’ll keep reading in between everything else, and join back in tomorrow. Thanks so much for all your contributions so far.
Charlie says
Very timely post. We have three rescue dogs, all between 8-9 years old. The eldest, Cynthia, is a 60lb alpha female, Visla-lab mix who came to us at 2 years old with a hyper-active prey drive and unremitting separation anxiety. 7 years later, she can be called off most chases and we find her during the evenings now sleeping in the quietest,darkest part of the house. The one consistent trait she has never shaken is her need to prove her dominance to virtually every other dog. I have pulled her off more dogs than I can count, though with one exception, which she did not instigate, she has never been less than a gentle and loving pack-member.
When Cynthia arrived we had an established pack of four with a clear alpha male, and she never questioned the hierarchy. When our two senior citizens, including our pack leader, passed over the last three years she assumed the leadership role without ever being particularly assertive. As a group of three there was harmony and rhythm. Outside dogs were either carefully managed or avoided.
Six months ago we added a fourth, a small, two year old pit-bull mix that had been saved by a rescue from death’s doorstep. When Millie arrived she was still in the middle of a long recovery. She had been starved almost to nothing, and was riddled with various infections. Today, I’m happy to say she is a healthy,happy and robust 40lb ball of love.
Millie had never been socialized and has no understanding of pack hierarchy. She is emotionally naive and intellectually, shall we say, undeveloped. Truthfully, she’s a bit dim. But she badly wants to be attached and to join in.
For the first six months, and to our great surprise, Cynthia took on Millie in a big sister kind of way. While the other two were disinterested, and remain aloof, Sunny engaged with Millie in a loving and patient relationship, putting up with Millie’s constant playing and engaging in frequent bouts of mouthing at each other. Millie would repeatedly walk under Cynthia and nip at her legs, all of which Cynthia would put up with.
We had a couple of issues early on with Millie finishing her dinner first and then deciding she wanted to help the others finish theirs. The other two got in her face in no uncertain terms and she backed off. We also started to manage the situation more pro-actively. Cynthia had one short sharp correction of Millie but we removed the opportunity for other issues around the dinner bowl.
Until Sunday.
Truthfully, we had thought the problem was in the past, that Millie had learned and that we could relax. How wrong we were!
Cynthia was finishing her dinner. The other three had already finished when Millie decided she would help Cynthia finish. Cynthia snapped and the next thing we know we have a full-on dog fight with hair and blood flying. My wife tried to break it up, but whenever she pulled one dog off the other latched on again. By the time I heard the noise and my wife screaming, the fight had been going on for more than a minute, which as anyone who’s been around a dog fight knows, is an eternity. By the time I got downstairs one of the other two had jumped in and was attacking Sunny.
I was able to reach in and grab Millie’s collar and pull her and our third dog off Cynthia and get them into separate rooms. We got Cynthia outside. Everyone calmed down, we cleaned up the blood from Millie’s bitten ears and Cynthia’s small graze on her leg and decided we had created the issue by feeding them together. The next morning we fed Millie separately from the others. There was a little rough-housing between Millie and Cynthia – initiated by Millie who has a resilience that is extraordinary – and we began to think we had removed the trigger and things would go back to the way they were.
Again we were wrong!
In the middle of the afternoon, while my wife was on the phone in the next room, she suddenly hears a growl and then immediately a fight break-out. This time it was limited to just Millie and Cynthia, and we have no idea who it what triggered it. We broke it up quickly, but not before blood had been drawn, again primarily Millie’s, though she was as hard to detach from Cynthia as Cynthia was from Millie.
The last 18 hours have been tense and heart-wrenching. They can be in the same room, but we have clearly not left them unsupervised together. There has been minimal engagement. Cynthia sniffed Millie this morning while she was lying on her bed, but Millie has not engaged with Cynthia at all.
It would be devastating to my wife and I to have to re-home Millie. But we want her to have not just a safe life but a great life where she can be connected fully to her family, human and canine.
Is that still possible? Once blood has been drawn, can a behaviorist help to get two dogs who used to love each other get back to a place where they can live safely together? We’re prepared to manage their life together, but we want to make sure we have a realistic chance of giving all of them a rewarding quality of life. Running a glorified prison camp does not really fit that description.
Any advice gratefully received.
LisaW says
This is a great topic. We never had an issue with our dogs getting along. They all really liked and/or loved each other and were stable enough to keep a happy group dynamic. This was status quo for the last thirty years. Until now. Enter two dogs with a lot less confidence, physical issues, lack of early socialization, and some trauma, and geez are things different. They like each other and do look to each other, but one is a bit more prone to snarl and growl than the other. She’s socially awkward and an “alpha-wanna-be” and to me at least, the infractions she’s responding to are sometimes mysterious.
For example, if our other dog is under the kitchen table and licks her leg, the other one will sometimes make a quick advance and a snark. No food around, nothing to guard, but it’s almost the idea of the potential of something imagined. At other times, they can share bones, some toys (although stuffed toys and tug toys create too high an arousal and lead to more serious snarks and are more or less hidden away). It’s the one dog who has obvious signs of past trauma, anxiousness, and has bad dreams she wakes from in a start that is the one to watch more closely.
I err on the side of prevention rather than intervention because I am not sure I will make things better not worse if I intervene the wrong way. But then I wonder how we move past it if there is no opportunity to learn from it. And around I go. I can predict some things that could lead to trouble and others take me by surprise. I can redirect her quickly, and I will look at her and say, “Olive, how could you?” with a soft voice and slightly disapproving tone. She responds to that.
Our other dog is the type that just looks away and doesn’t respond to the snark, but you can see her discomfort sometimes when she isn’t sure how the other will react, and I do feel badly about that. She worries more than she should have to. With our lucky past of happy, romping dogs, I often find myself singing softly, “You don’t miss your water ‘til the well runs dry.”
Joyce Gauthier says
Loved this article. As I read it I kept saying to myself “that’s exactly what I do.” 🙂 So, “right” or “wrong,” it’s nice to know we are of one mind in our responses to these skirmishes.
LS says
I’m pretty quick to intervene or manage behavior. My female pit bull mix, Roxy, can be very much a bully and has always tried to take things away from and just generally bully my younger, laid back male lab. 3 times in the past 6 years he has refused to give something up – toy or food – and it has exploded into short 30 seconds fights, which stopped when I yelled “Hey, enough!”
I have two rules that have worked for us to keep the balance & the peace. First is “that’s not yours” – So when lab is chewing a bone and the female starts trying to move in to edge him away from it, even though 99% he will let her take it, I intervene and say “that’s not yours” and she walks away and I give her a different toy. Second is “give her space” which I use when Roxy is eating and the lab is walking past or examining what she is eating. Neither are food aggressive, but I don’t take chances. I suppose that isn’t intervening as much as managing space.
I also intervene during play. The pit bull mix is a rough player and can get over aroused during play. I won’t let them play tug together with a rope or any game where they are eye to eye over something. They love playing ball and take turns nicely. When they wrestle play, I stop it when the lab seems to want to get away. If he is shrinking back, turning his head, obviously wanting out of the game then I call game over. When they are outside, under the steps is a time out zone. She has to ‘let him be’ when he goes under the steps, so he can enter or leave play as he feels comfortable.
I may intervene too much…. the dogs have a good relationship with each other and the male always backs off, has generally learned when to stay out of the way, and their spats have not been serious. But I’m not comfortable with one dog feeling bullied or afraid and I prefer to set the house rules and insist that the dogs use good manners with me and each other. I might be a ‘helicopter parent’! Am I depriving them of the joy of free play? I don’t know. But my sense is that the lab is nervous with unsupervised play and that the terrier likes to fight – so I don’t think play without intervention is good for them. They have very different play styles and it seems like they need management & intervention. But I may just be over involved!
LS says
In a different situation in our house I learned when *not* to intervene. We had a 13 year old foster collie – severe arthritis, very stiff and unstable on his feet. At first I was always yelling at the dogs to ‘watch out for Merlin’ because I thought he needed my protection. But one day Roxy knocked him over in the yard and he followed her around for about 20 minutes barking loudly at her and (it seemed) scolding her. It really freaked her out, she kept trying to pretend he wasn’t there and glancing back out of the corner of her eye. As I mentioned in the previous post, Roxy is quite a bully, so this was an eye opener for me and a reminder of the complexity of dog relationships and how much I didn’t know! After that, I stopped intervening on his behalf and until the day he died, both the younger dogs gave Merlin a wide and respectful berth. He reminded them with air snaps and showing of teeth if he felt they were being careless and getting too close. They all co-existed beautifully and respectfully.
Trish K says
Robert– I have a very similar situation. I had a male bc mix 10 wks. Old and brought a female BC home 3 months later. They are the same age. My boy dog Simon was with me playing fetch every day until Bella came along. Bella would try to play but Simon was a ball hog, not use to sharing. Bella kinda lost interest. As time has gone by, they are both 1 yr. now, it’s Bella that chases and nips at Simon. I saw a video in Patricia’s website in THE READING ROOM where she showed her dogs waiting patiently to eat, wait to go out and also get in the car. It was the best thing I’ve ever seen! Ive been hooked on her training ever since. It hasn’t been that long
Trish K says
^^^I taught Bella to wait while Simon fetches. ^^^
Gayla says
This topic is the epitome of Dr. McConnell’s, “it depends.” I live with a “Bossy Aussie,” who is a walking dog fight looking for a place to happen. I intervene to bring her arousal level back down, or whenever it seems the other dog is not enjoying herself. (Which is most of the time.) To Noel Lee and Robert: To me, it seems important to ascertain if Fifi and Koko are not enjoying their interaction with Tata and Marley. If they’re not, maybe a good form of intervention would be to find an alternative game to play so that you’re not building tension into their relationships? I love EmilySHS suggestion of marking and reinforcing appropriate signals!! I wonder if that idea never occurred to me because I’m a lousy trainer, or because my dog never gives them?
Selena Dwyer says
Interesting article! Totally agree with erring on the side of caution. Yesterday I had two incidents with the same dog. He (Diesel), a very large, muscly dog (scary spiky collar) was in an enclosed exercise area that me, a friend and our dogs wanted to enter. Chief (my 1 yr old Sprollie) and I approached the gate. Diesel, on the other side, was soft and wagging his tail. Chief however was all stiff as they sniffed so I turned and walked away. I turned back after a few paces and said in my happy voice ‘Oh look it’s a doggy, want to say hi to the nice doggy’ etc. Chief relaxed, his body became soft and he started wagging his tail so we recommenced sniffing and entered with no problem. I suspect Chief would have started growling and snapping if we hadn’t walked away and tried again.
My friend (only 12) and her little Cavalier also entered. She was a bit nervy of the big dog. We let our dogs off and they were fine (all entire too). Then Marley the Cavie decided put his paws up on the big dog’s shoulders (which he could just reach). Diesel didn’t like it and chased him a couple of times. I could see Marley was now clearly uncomfortable/scared (tail tucked right in and kept spinning around to face the other dog). Diesel was standing almost over him, seemingly intimidating him though he did lick his face. I walked over and petted them both saying to Diesel to be more gentle as Marley was scared. Marley hid between my legs. Diesel came round behind my legs and snapped at Marley and started growling. At that point I grabbed Diesel and Marley’s owner called him over. Would Diesel have snapped at Marley if I hadn’t gone over? I don’t know but I’m glad I was there to stop it going any further.
Selena Dwyer says
On another note, my friend has a reactive dog. She doesn’t like dogs, especially puppies or ones she doesn’t know (she’s fine after going for a few walks with them, she doesn’t play with other dogs though) getting in her face or bugging her. I’ve learnt to run interference as my friend has enough to cope with keeping her dog (always on lead around newbies) from snapping at the other dog without trying to push the other dog away. Most owners are too slow, oblivious, or uncaring to react even if we’ve told them to keep their dog away long before their dog approaches us. From those situations I have learnt that some people won’t listen or step in so even if the dogs aren’t mine or the aggressor’s owner is near (if my dog is involved) my reaction is to step in and grab the dog’s collar.
Triangle says
I know as a vet tech, I tended to intervene earlier rather than later if I saw dogs in the waiting room giving hard eyes or growls to each other. Unfamiliar environment + stress just seemed like a recipe for disaster, so we quickly moved back dogs that seemed anxious or at times asked their owner to take them outside. Many times the owner would insist their dog was fine when the dog’s body language was simply screaming stress of the kind that could easily escalate to violence. Many people just don’t get canine body language. We only had one serious fight in our waiting room, and that was between two pits who BOTH had owners who claimed they were fine right before one dog broke his lead and severely slashed up the other dog before they could be separated. Of course the same went with the dogs vs. the vets, where owners would claim the dog was fine when he was clearly prepping to bite.
On a slightly related note, can there be legal consequences for people who let their dogs constantly get into bad fights? We had one client who rescued German shepherds and CONSTANTLY brought dogs in with gaping wounds because they broke through crates/fought through fences/etc. She just couldn’t keep the dogs separated. She also had an ancient setter who was forever getting mauled by the shepherds. After the fifth or sixth time, one of the vets told her it was like putting grandmother in the ring with Tyson and that what she was doing was animal abuse. I’ve always wondered if animal control would have been able to legally do anything about that kind of mismanagement. After the vet berated her, she did do a better job and the setter went unmauled through her final year.
And finally, a cat story…Jonas is my feral boy with poor bite inhibition. Every single time he encounters our other cat, Robin, his reaction is to go for her throat. He has no interest in grooming or being grooming or just snuggling, but he’s not truly being aggressive. Gnawing on her jugular is how he plays. So long as he doesn’t get her cornered, Robin is very good about extracting herself and neither one has ever injured the other. They’re both senior cats now, and based on their past history I don’t intervene unless someone is yelling. But my mother ALWAYS reacts as if murder will occur and jumps in to separate them. She’s done this since Jonas was a tiny kitten, and I honestly believe that if she hadn’t been so nervous and quick to act, the two would have a better relationship. Robin has never been given a chance to really put Jonas in his place and I know that she’s capable of doing so without inflicting injury. She has excellent manners and bite inhibition, and she could have been a great mentor for him if she had only been allowed.
ABandMM says
I’m in the preventive management camp. My dog and I are moving back to mom and dad’s and they have a 3 yr old boxer mix (Annika, aka “the puppy”). My mom got her as an 8 week old puppy and their older dog (Charlie ~ 6 yr old chow mix, male) and my dog (also ~6 at the time) wanted nothing to do with the alien puppy. Because Charlie and Annika lived together they found peaceful co-existence that involved crating Annika during the puppy months, then gating her in a bedroom to giving them both free rein of the house when my parents were out.
At my parents house, the spare bedroom has one of those fancy gates on it, so that is where we put my dog Abb when I’m visiting and the dogs would be left unsupervised. I think Charlie delivered some well time barks and my parents reinforced “letting Charlie be” so that he and Annika could find that peaceful co-existence (Charlie, a rescue, never played with toys or other dogs, so he wasn’t going to be her playmate).
Abby seems a bit “passive aggressive” around Annika. Annika is mouthy in that she loves to do kisses and will eviscerate almost any toy, especially if it has a squeaker. She is constantly trying to engage Abby with kisses and now pawing at her (more like hugging and wrestling) and Abby instead of moving and going somewhere else just sits there, then starts to growl and then bare teeth. Annika is oblivious and doesn’t back off. This does surprise me because Abby is usually rock solid around other dogs, and in fact is pretty aloof around them.
Since Abby (and I) are occasional weekend visitors, the two dogs really haven’t had the time to find a balance. It seems like when we are there, Annika thinks of us as “play toys”. I’m also suspect that there is some female-female issues, and the fact that since Abby and I stayed with M&D for 6 months (this was prior to them getting Annika) Abby might view herself as the head female, even though it isn’t her house. (how is that for anthropomorphism?)
Charlie, unfortunately, recently lost his fight with lymphoma, so Annika is now an only-dog. When we (temporarily I hope) move back in, we will have preventive management and not let both dogs have free rein of the house when no one is home. There is hope that they too will peacefully co-exist in that both dogs have been observed napping on the same couch or same bed (but Annika can’t TOUCH Abby, and no leaning over to give Abby kisses). They each have their “place” near the dinner table (and my dad feeds them equally) and we do feed the dogs their meals, they are separated.
The “hey enough snarking” and redirecting Annika’s attention has kept Abby’s growls from escalating. I’m hoping that while I am at my parents, I can work with Annika and do a good manners class with her, and some work through the Karen Overall Relaxation Protocol with her. She is very wary of people she hasn’t met and very aware of her environment (and when something in it changes). She’s a good dog, and her issues are easily managed with my parents and their lifestyles. She is very energetic, the opposite of my (usually) laid-back, aloof hound, so I would like to work and train with her.
Jody Karow says
Excellent article. Something I frequently get asked as well. Not easy to summarize in one article. Coming from a dog daycare background before training, I too am on the lower end of intervention. Except when it comes to young puppies, protect the babies from bad experiences at all cost. They need lots of padding and good experiences first. I do not believe in the mindset for letting dogs work it out always either. There are times we should absolutely intervene. How you do so is an article of it’s own. 😉
Frances says
Interesting about the cats, Triangle. My two were very close as kittens and young adults – lots of play, mutual grooming, sleeping in each others arms. As they got older they grew apart, and will have the occasonal mild spat -I rarely intervene but Sophy the Papillon always does if she is around, usually with a rush and bark and high arousal. Very different from the calm intervention she would use with quarrelsome dogs of her own size (I’ve only seen that once or twice, as we don’t meet that many dogs small enough for me to let her run the risk!).
jackied says
My spaniel bitch is an air-snapper too – but in her case I think it is usually an appropriate correction for dogs that want to get too up close and personal, after she’s tried appeasing actions. It is much more frequent if she is a little under the weather for some reason. The other dog invariably backs off.
I vote for ‘they didn’t hurt each other’ as being a huge error of perception, too. She was once charged, mouthed and knocked over repeatedly by a ‘friendly’ large german shepherd and has never been as confident with other dogs since. In fact I think he probably _did_ hurt her even though there were no bite wounds. To top it off, when she’d finally caught him the other dog’s owner marched him over to ‘say sorry and make friends’ . I had to body block them, poor Lucy was terrified!
I think the GSD had switched from play mode to predator mode because she was running so fast. She was lucky in some ways, his behaviour towards other dogs is deteriorating and there have been some _really_ nasty incidents recently.
We have the loud play-growling problem with our other dog. For one thing, we can’t hear the TV if he and Lucy decide to have a romp, LOL, but more seriously, sometimes he play-growls ‘ferociously’ at dogs on walks and sometimes he really _does_ growl ferociously at other dogs and I seem to be the only human that can tell the difference. Given that he also tends to play too roughly for most dogs, there is only one dog I can let him play with out on walks – one that makes the same kind of play growls! Patch gets nagged by his owner all the time for ‘grumbling’ at other dogs and she calls him away from them, though you can see from their behaviour that they are perfectly happy with him. (I don’t think the nagging bothers Patch particularly, though!)
Kerry M. says
Charlie, so sorry for your troubles. I don’t think anyone here can answer whether the relationship is salvageable. But I do know dogs who have come back from serious fights to live mostly harmoniously with management and training. Do you have citronella spray on hand? It could help break up a future dog fight.
I wanted to ask whether anyone uses hackles to decide to intervene. My last pup hackled when playing and I decided it was a play style thing. Over arousal, perhaps, but not discomfort. Fast forward a year and she is now uncomfortable meeting new dogs especially ones bigger than her. Usually she stiffens and curves, uncomfortable but not threatening. My new pup hackles but infrequently when playing. I intervene with a 30-second time out for every hackle. Not sure if this is necessary but I feel like I may have missed a good clue from my last pup that could have made her more comfortable.
Rebecca says
Fascinating article and comments! I have been relatively lucky with my two, but am curious about whether you could do an article on fostering relationships between dogs as well. Here’s my situation: I currently have two dogs. The first in the household is a 56-pound female greyhound, Katie, who was incredibly shy (generalized anxiety) when I first got her, but has come a long way with the use of Prozac, counter-conditioning, and managing her world. The second dog is a 9.5 lb miniature rat terrier, a stray that followed me home. Pixie is a dominant, territorial dog, but still on the timid side of dog personalities. (As my trainer told me, compared to Katie she is incredibly brave, but compared to a “normal” dog she is isn’t. But most of her stress signals consist of blinking, and being slow to warm up to things, so I mostly just let her decide when she wants to join in on things.)
Katie was delighted to get a new dog in the household, and did some wonderfully self-handicapped play invitations. Pixie, on the other hand, doesn’t want to have anything to do with large dogs, which is certainly understandable. To be honest, if I had been picking out a second dog, I wouldn’t have gone with such a large size difference. She does want to play with dogs her size, but in those interactions can be a bit intense (very upright posture, lots of quick darting motions, etc), which can overwhelm some of the dogs. She has recently taken up playing with the cat (pretty sure it’s play, since I have seen the cat curled up with her afterwards), and I would love to get her to play with Katie. But how? They co-exist pretty harmoniously, but Katie no longer offers play invitations to Pixie, after being rebuffed by her for it. And Pixie doesn’t offer any to Katie. And their individual play styles don’t mesh, since Katie does sight-hound zoomies which Pixie finds extremely stressful if she is out when they happen (which I understandable, since it’s pretty much equivalent to standing out in the middle of the street with cars whizzing past). And Pixie’s favorite games are things like tug, in which she gets very possessive of me, and thus unlikely to invite Katie in to play as well.
So, any advice on fostering a relationship between the two, or do I just settle for peaceful coexistence and not try to force them to be friends? And I am fine if you want to leave that for a different blog.
Mireille says
I was just wondering about this very question last week. We have two siblings in the house, two intact male Siberian husky’s, Shadow and Spot, now 2,5 years old and living with us since they were eight weeks old.
Starting of as inseparable little puppies (I have a couple of pics of the sleeping on top of each other, so cute) under the ‘guidance’ of our then elderly sibe Janouk (intact, male 10 years old). How and why we ended up with two pups, long story, just let me say that I will never do it again, even though I love them both and they are getting along pretty nicely. We had our difficulties though. As pups they started to squabble when tired, mainly after the last meal of the day. I did read about sibling rivalry so I decided that one of the most important things would be not to let them get in the habit of fighting. So I followed your mantra, Trish, prevenion, prevention, prevention. So they stayed in their crate for five to ten minutes after feeding time, and then there were no problems. In retrospect I underestimated the influence of our older dog. He was not overly involved with the pups, even disliked Shadow but he was there and probably communicated a lot that I missed. I have two short films with a discussion between the youngsters about a kong where they show remarkable restraint for young pups. I think the clue is to why is does not escalate is in the second part. Part one: http://youtu.be/uGhNWfBWLZ4
Part two : http://youtu.be/pT-ActQkBv0
When Janouk died, they had their first fight. I wasn’t there, hubby was home. It started over a bone: Spot was pestering Shadow about it and something ‘snapped’ and he want after Spot. Although Spot was bigger, Shad was quicker and stronger. Hubby had a lot of difficulty getting them apart (finally managed with help of a broom) and I came home to one wet muddled cripple puppy (Spot) and one male macho (Shadow) which was clearly a change in roles. What we then basically worked on was moderating Shad’s machismo, since he was constantly trying to make his point to Spot, taking away bones and telling him not to touch his toys. At first I did not notice what exactly happened. It seemed as if Spot did not care for balls to play with, never engaging when I tried to entice him to fetch. Until one day I wanted to make two short films, one about my “fetching sibe” Shad and one about the sibe who couldn’t care less (Spot) to show how different siblings can be. So I put Shad in his crate, out of sight of Spot and lo and behold, Spot fetched with glee and almost perfectly. The only difference with previous efforts was that Shad was really out of sight. And Shad has “the look” , he can claim toys from across the room. In my view that is potentially dangerous, especially with two adolescents in one house. Our breeder was also visiting us at the time and she told us to “stop him showing off” as well. So we wired on sharing, interfering when Shad started claiming. Like sharing the empty yoghurt cup (they love to clean that out) . Not sharing = resource disappears. (example of training session http://youtu.be/9iy5gptURec )
We have had one other “big fight”, last august. We were coming home late from a visit to friends. We left the dogs in the yard with a Kong. They were very excited when we got home (hyper might be a better word). We were tired, went for a walk, gave them their dinner. I opende the door to the backyard to put their bowls outside, Spot flew out towards his Kong and Shad attacked him. Usually Spot would give in but not so and I could not get them apart. We were right in the middle of a big renovation and yard behind house was just one big sandpit / building area. So there I was, standing in pitch dark in the sand with two dogs sounding like they were tearing each other apart. I got a lamp, called hubby and we both grabbed a dog (by the collar, seemed to be no other way). Since they both had the other dogs ear in their mouth, we just lifted them up by their collars, careful not to pull an waited till they let loose. I swear that Shad’s eyes were bloodred, he was soooo furious and Spot was just not giving in. Eventually they both let go a bit and we got them apart. I went into the garage to inspect Spot and hubby took Shad into the house. Luckily there was no real damage done, a small nick in the ear – bleeding like hell off course and some bald patches and scratches. I was shaky, relieved but also bloody angry about it. I had just one thought: they need to sleep together as always, not in MY house (usually they slept outdoors in their pen, but due to the rebuilding they were sleeping in the living room, without crates) , so I quickly assembled crates, put those in the garage and put the dogs in there. This is the next morning, were you can see the tension between the two gentlemen http://youtu.be/MTW3EAWp05M
That was the last real fight we had. I think it was a bit of everything: their home was in a upheaval, strange people, strange noise, strange scents, doggy daycare visits (normal rhythm disturbed) and what I later found out: a kong that was not empty! I suspect they spend all evening in “discussion’ about possession of the kong. We were also tired and not as attentive perhaps as usual.
At the moment, they eat together, sleep together, I can play with toys with both dogs, hide cookies in the garden and let them search for is simultaneously. I do have to be attentive that Shad does not start to get to possessive about Toys (especially HIS BALL) and Spot about cuddles and access to me. The only moment when I really have to be very careful is with other dogs. Shad sometimes shows “redirected aggression’. A couple of weeks ago I went scootering with both dogs and we ran into another male dog which he hates. So he tried to attack Spot, but right at the start of the scootering they are both very high in ‘drive” and they are connected with a short neckline. Spot tried to get away but could not, luckily I was quick enough to release the neckline. Now I changed the set-up and they are no longer connected by a neckline but by a somewhat longer line connecting the harnesses. I feel it is safer and makes life easier for me. When we are scootering and see other dogs, we always stop and walk past them. This way I can grab the line easier than with the neckline and if necessary i can step between them – luckily they have very good manners where my arms and legs are concerned.
And this was last weekend, they started playing more often lately and I think it has something to do with Spot maturing (‘testosteron troubles” we call it 😉 ) and the fact that the balance has to be discussed again (- with us to , by the way). We interfere when it gets to rough for our comfort. http://youtu.be/v5Z171ormHE
I think it is very important to recognise that dogs have moods to, I see it with mine, when they are very excited to go scootering, they are “ electrically charged” as we call it and the respond quicker and nastier sometimes. If I meet a dog just after we started, their respons is much more hyper than after an hour of running. And when they get frustrated by a too difficult Kong, they start squabbling over it.
And the trouble with two siblings is not so much that they are not attached to you – but that a) they converse so subtly amongst themselves that I miss conversations and b) that they both respond as immature adolescents and both dogs need to learn to modify their respons and need to develop some form of frustration tolerance. So instead of a couple of weeks of management, it might take a couple of years, in leaps and bounds and you constantly have to be aware that tomorrow may be different.
Trisha says
Interesting question about hackles, Kerry M. It is indeed believed to be related to arousal, but I too pay attention when a dog is playing with raised fur. I’m never quite clear of the line between ‘arousal’ and ‘over arousal,’ but I do find it interesting that so many dogs never raise their hackles when excited. One question I’ve always wondered about: Why do some dogs raise their fur while playing, but not at other times when they are excited? As I think about it, I’ve seen hackles up mostly during play or when a dog is barking at visitors or another dog. Rarely (never?) when excited about food or playing with a toy with his person. So I am suspicious of raised hackles, and think that you are doing the right thing to create time outs.
Robin Jackson says
@Triangle,
In the US, animal cruelty laws are set at the local level, and there’s a lot of variation from one jurisdiction to another. The vets you work with should already know what’s reportable. Whether the failure to control reaches the level of abuse, or even triggers anti dogfighting laws, just depends on all the local details. I’m so sorry this situation is going on! Hopefully one of the vets can get through to her eventually.
Trisha says
To Charlie: Ouch. I’m so sorry about the fights between Millie and Cynthia. Kerry is right that no one can guess if the dogs can be trusted together again, even if we were able to come out and do an in-home evaluation. What I can do is give you probability statements. Is it within the realm of possibility that you could help the dogs salvage their relationship? Yes. Are the odds good? No. I’d say they are very, very small. Once two females are engaged in serious fighting it can be extremely difficult to turn things around. Outside of a home environment two warring females would resolve things in one of two ways: One leaves and finds another territory or one kills the other. Ouch again. What makes your situation so difficult is that the dogs don’t want to stop. When you wrote that it was equally difficult to ‘detach both dogs’ my heart sank. That means that they aren’t inhibiting themselves in any way, and that means they are intending to do harm. Serious harm. I would first advise that you do not ever, ever let them together (no sniffing, no nothing, please!) without a long in-home consultation with a well-qualified behaviorist. But given that the consequence of another fight is so serious, I’m afraid that you would be wise to consider re-homing Millie. Ouch again. Sorry.
Trisha says
Interesting story from jackied about the GSD switching from play to predation. I suspect that Willie did the same thing yesterday while playing with Maggie. They were charging down the hill shoulder to shoulder so fast that I thought they’d hurt themselves, and Willie reached over and bit Maggie. I saw it as him “herding” her in order to slow her down so he could ‘win’ the race. No matter what his reason, it was completely inappropriate. Maggie stumbled and yelped, and I didn’t hesitate to intervene. I yelled HEY at Willie and then body blocked him backwards in space while telling him that I thought he was a jerk. Actually, I said something like “Don’t you ever, ever do anything like that again.” They were both a bit tentative with each other after that. I suspect that their relationship is actually moving into a new phase. Maggie’s growls while playing tug have changed (deeper, louder) and Willie has thrown a few offensive puckers her way lately. So I’m monitoring them closely, and calling time outs when they are playing tug a bit more often now. Stay tuned, never a dull moment with dogs, hey?
Trisha says
To Noel Lee and his two dogs, Fifi and Tata: I’d work around the problem by only playing chase with Fifi when Tata is in another room. I know that’s not always a satisfying answer, but I’m all for management when it is the easiest and most effective solution. I’m sorry that the dogs don’t get along, but it happens to all of us at some point in time. I got my Cavalier, Tootsie, in part as a playmate for Willie, and they never even acknowledge each other after two and a half years. Just remember that the dogs are probably fine with their relationship (or lack of it), so it’s fine to work on accepting that you have two wonderful dogs that you adore, but who just aren’t going to be best buddies.
Trisha says
To Robert with Koko and Marley: Humm, that’s a tricky one about whether to intervene when Marley ‘mugs’ Koko while she is playing ball. It is a shame in a way that she doesn’t just correct Marley (but also nice that she doesn’t become aggressive about it.) I do see that as inappropriate play behavior, because Koko clearly isn’t playing back and if she stops running after toys after a bit of being mugged she obviously doesn’t like it. I’d be concerned that if it continues it might lead to trouble down the road. A few thoughts: There is nothing wrong with taking them separately to the park. I know that’s not ideal for your schedule, but it is actually good for dogs to be used to variable schedules and not all going together to everything. You could also teach Marley to fetch and throw each a different toy for each dog (don’t laugh, I did it with 2 of my BCs once for a relatively similar issue). I might also try interrupting Marley as he runs at Koko by calling his name and reinforcing him for stopping not mugging Koko. Hope that helps!
Holly says
I’m so glad you posted this and started these discussions. My middle dog (age 5) is a complete PITA with others in the house. He was always wonderful with my bitch (we lost her at age 13 1/2 last year.) Until about age 2, he was fine with my older male (now 9). He is also a jerk with my youngest male (age 2). I’ve worked with a behaviorist (phone consult and lots of work using her suggestions), but it simply wasn’t enough. Thanks for saying that sometimes relationships cannot be salvaged. I’ve felt like such a total training failure. No one is going anywhere, but we will maintain our segregated household. It’s a pain, but it’s a pain that I own.
Thanks, as always, Patricia, for your insights, knowledge, and willingness to share.
Kat says
When and how do you intervene with the clueless humans, is the question on my mind today. I took Ranger to the dog park today and watched some truly clueless people intervening and correcting their dogs for 1) being dogs and 2) perfectly appropriate corrections of a playmate. If you’re going to object to your dog smelling poop and pee and another dog’s behind why did you get a dog? Just because it’s gross to you doesn’t mean it’s gross to or for a dog. I kept commenting on what a huge amount of information a dog can collect through smell and hoped some of that would sink in.
Today at the park there was an eight month old Lab mix playing with the much smaller four year old pitbull type. They were having a happy game of chase with a little wrestle thrown in. The big puppy was not self-handicapping appropriately and twice stomped the pibble who responded with a yelp and a charge backing the puppy up several feet then relaxing and inviting the puppy to chase some more. What I was seeing looked like perfectly reasonable correction for puppy stupidity. The Pibble didn’t look aroused, intent, murderous, she looked mildly ticked and like she wanted the puppy to know she hadn’t appreciated being stomped on. Once the puppy backed up and turned his head in apology she relaxed and was ready to resume play but her person insisted on correcting and giving time outs each time she corrected the puppy. The Lab mix’s person was ignoring the whole thing. I started talking to the Pibble about how I’d be ticked too if some clumsy adolescent stepped on me, hoping that the person would get a clue but she was one of those who was so afraid that her bully breed would be blamed for any problem that she was seeing problems where there weren’t any.
There was also a hound mix that wanted to play with the Pibble but he kept getting a little too intent. Ranger kept an eye on the hound and moved him away whenever he showed any sign of fixating on the Pibble. Ranger didn’t see any need to intervene with the pibble and Lab mix. In all honesty I take my cues from Ranger a lot about whether a situation is developing that needs intervention.
LS says
I am very interested in the hackle discussion. My very laid back and gentle 7 year old lab mix raises his hackles only when barking at someone – human or dog (never car) – going past our fence and sometimes (but not always) when playing with or meeting an unfamiliar dog. He has never shown any aggressiveness toward anything. Is cautious and a little uncertain when encountering new things he doesn’t understand. I’m never sure how to read his raised hackles. Not really fear – when he is just fearful (i.e. skateboards) he moves behind me to hide & avoid. When faced with open aggression (dog lunging & growling on walk) he whines, faces away, tries to avoid. So it seems like raised hackles are arousal, not fear or aggression, but I wish I knew how to read it and how to respond. (For my other dog arousal = aggressive response, so she is easier to read)
Trish Kirby says
@Kat…intervening with some Clueless dog owners is probably the same as unsolicited advice to parents about their kids, proceed with caution. Haha
I’m not new to owning dogs but very new to understanding dog behavior and body language. I’m pretty clueless but learning more each day
Trish Kirby says
If there’s one thing I’ve learned for sure is that there is no one right answer for any situation. And you don’t have to look to long to find a contradicting opinion. Maybe the pitbull owner was erring on the side of caution and prevention.
Steph says
To the hackles discussion – my dog raises his hackles upon seeing another dog, and other than arousal I’m not sure what to attribute it to. However, when he meets new dogs, sometimes hackles go down and sometimes they stay up. But he never shows hackles with known dogs – once they are friends, he keeps it down. On walks, he will lower his hackles if I speak to him (I usually say ‘put those down, please’).
I don’t use seeing his hackles to stop him playing with another dog. I use the other dog’s reaction, and a little bit of their body language during play (e.g., signs things are getting more intense). If the other dog hackles right back, I’ll discourage play or we’ll move on. If they are playing and things go vertical, I’ll call a time out either immediately or shortly after.
I have noticed hackles make other owners wary of him, and I think that tension can cause issues sometimes. So I will sometimes mention “the hackles are up because he/she is a new dog, he’s not looking for trouble.”
Barb Tesser says
We introduced a rescue dog into our established and very stable 3 dog household. He is a mix of giant breeds one of which must be GSD and maybe some mastiff or lab. He had spent all 8 yrs of his life on a short chain with no shelter and little food and even less interaction with humans. He had obviously been in a few fights and the last one was just before he was rescued. He arrived at our house with a puncture wound on his leg and was on antibiotics. Our other big male dog is a yellow lab. He and Tuck had a very bad start. The introduction went badly and I had to intervene to prevent a fight that first night. I hoped that it would get better but it did not. We went to Crate/gate/rotate and nothing in life is free with the two big guys and now 6 months later I still can’t leave them alone safely. They just really hate each other and a fight is always just a snap away. Sunny, the lab is very pushy and kind of a bully and had been the leader of the pack till Tuck came along. Tucker really doesn’t want to be the boss but he won’t carry water for anyone either. I intervene whenever I see the potential for a blow up and I’ve never punished or corrected when one of the dogs has given that warning growl because I’ve been told that would just lead to an attack with no warning signs. That is exactly what happened when I walked the two dogs a few days ago. They were sniffing a pile of leaves in the woods and got into each others space and the fight was on. No growl, no warning and a big one. Tuck was on a leash because I don’t know that he will stay nearby and Sunny was not on a leash. I was able to pull Tucker off and stop the fight but Sunny just came right back in and it started up again and then again. Both dogs had bites. There was blood but stitches weren’t required thankfully. The thing is if I hadn’t had a leash on at least one of them I don’t think I could have stopped them from killing each other. If I’d had a leash on both of them I maybe could have tied one off to a tree and pulled the other off and ended it with just one attack. So for now, I’ll walk them one at a time and we’re back to square one with increased vigilance and body blocking when they go in and out to the dog yard.
marcia m. says
Wonderful post Trisha. After reading the comments accumulated by friday (May 9th), I think people would be very interested in a post on a related subject – how to deal with the owners who ask if your dog is friendly while they’re allowing their dog to run straight at you. The dog I had before this one was a shepherd mix who would never back down from a dog that charged at her. I always worked on her behavior while realizing that I could do little with the other owner’s behavior. It finally dawned on me that the thing I could work on was my own reaction to the other owner. When asked if my dog was “friendly”, I learned to stand up straight, hold my head high and in a firm but non-aggressive or reactive voice say NO! No explanations, no smiles, no apologies. If they told me that their dog would not fight, I would (with the same stance and manner) say “Mine will ! ” I have seen several of your seminar DVDs where you coach owners on how to hold the correct stance and use the correct voice in order to get their dog’s attention. It takes practice to do this right just as it took me time and practice to get it right. We often don’t think about training ourselves. This is not a panacea. but it helps greatly in keeping many of these charging dogs away from the two of you. With all your experience I’m sure you have some ideas on how we can work on ourselves in order to help our dogs. Thank you for listening. Keep up the good work.
Mireille says
What if raised hackles have a true function and are not just a reflex? I read a theory that raised hackles help to spread a dog’s scent. Dog’s communication going for a big part trough smell, that might make it the equivalent of broadening the shoulders 🙂 in people. People can do that to intimidate or to make themselves bigger & boost their own confidence. If this was theory is correct, it would also explain why one does not see raised hackles in other kinds of arousal, esp not in chasing prey (no need to alert the rabbit to your existence)…
But it would make sense to intervene in dog-dog interactions. When play gets to intense between my two testosteron-bombs, hackles are sometimes raised. Usually at that point they pause themselves, otherwise I intervene
HFR says
Wondering what you think about the talk of dominance in some of these posts? So many people still describe their packs in terms related to wolf packs and dominance theory, that I’m now confused as to how it applies to our dogs in the real world.
Trish Kirby says
I read that hackles going up can also be used to make the dog as large/tall as possible when it is confronting another dog.
MeredithS says
Lucinda, my 10-year-old husky?greyhound?something? mix and my daughter’s similarly aged rescue w/separation anxiety didn’t meet well and nothing has gone right since. I’ve read with interest how you’ve introduced Maggie and Willie and I wish we had done anything like that … but, now it’s several years later and one ‘fight’ that drew blood (an ear) and I can’t bring my dog to my daughter’s home when I visit. And, she lives hours away so it’s awkward. We tried several times just to keep them separated: my dog stays in the bedroom w/childgates up and that works fine except that when she has to go out (on leash, of course), I have to ask my daughter or husband to hold onto their dog so we can get past without incident. One morning before they got up, I took Lucinda outside to potty and when we came back, my daughter’s dog was downstairs, loose, and wouldn’t let us back into the house.
I’m at a loss now as to what, if anything can be done to allow the dogs to co-exist on an occasional basis harmoniously. I’ve not tried anything in a couple of years because I don’t know that there’s anything that can be done. My daughter, I think, doesn’t mind that my dog can’t visit and I’d be OK with that except for the expense of boarding her (I’m retired on a fixed income).
Suggestions? Or have I missed a window of opportunity and it’s now simply too late? They are both older dogs, after all. Both female, too, and both were either strays (mine) or bumped from home to home (my daughter’s) so they are both fearful and insecure by temperament…
Cally says
Just wanted to say hello! I finally discovered your website a few weeks ago, and ever since then, I’ve spent a lot of time in the Reading Room. Thank you for taking the time to create such a valuable resource. I’ve read a number of your books, but being able to join into the discussion is going to be so much fun!
I currently have a gentle, ten year old lab – Nerina. She is an only dog, but my sister’s three-year-old maltese lives close by and often visits. Luckily, the two get along very well. The little one will occasionally growl and “lunge” if the lab steps on her, but we consider that perfectly understandable. They play together, cuddle and could even be trusted to eat next to each other. I hope it stays that way, though – Amy (the maltese) is a handful. She has recently started to growl at certain humans. She’s definitely fear-reactive, and I’ve ordered “Cautious Canine”. We’re looking at a time of intense training, and I’m rather worried about it. To make matters worse; my sister is only fourteen. Though she tries very hard, I can’t trust her to always manage situations responsibly… I’m afraid we’ve been too carefree with Amy, perhaps not seeing signs which must have been there. Spoiled by a one-in-a-million-dog, as you call them…
Greetings all the way from Germany,
Cally
MG says
I love reading the blog entries and comments as they help me to realize I’m not alone in the struggle/fascination with dog behavior. My heartbreak is that I will never be able to compete with my terrier’s brain to instantly zone in on fear/pain/submission expressed by our other dog – or a nervous child for that matter. She is mentally focused and wants to jump at their face. My life is all about managing her and it takes away a lot of the joy. Anyone else feel the weight of the guilt of unwisely choosing a dog or breed and then loving them with reservation?
Laura says
Great, great post and great comments, though some of them are heartbreakingly sad.
As I’ve said before, generally, the nice thing about having a group of guide dogs get together is that they will almost always get along just fine with no intervention required. Believe me, that’s nice for a bunch of handlers who can’t see subtle signals the dogs give off. I’m not saying there aren’t going to be fights and I have seen guide dogs correct other dogs, my torpedo comes to mind, both corrector and correctee, but it’s the exception rather than the rule. The mention of hackles being raised is great and I, like others, would love to see a post devoted to it. What does the hackle raising mean in dog to dog communication? Marlin used to raise his hackles in only one situation, play with other dogs. In observing all his other behavior in play, I took it to mean he was just overly excited. To Marlin, dogs trumped everything, guide work, toys, everything. He loved them and it was what I noticed first, his lack of play with torpedo, that tipped me off to the cancer which took him. Torpedo raised his hackles when he was excited/stressed out about something. Someone knocking at the door, a truck driving by at dusk… He’d usually add in a few barks and very fast, very high wags of his tail. My poor, over-worked boy. I’m so happy he is retired and living the good life now. I have never seen seamus raise his hackles. In fact, he is such a laid back dog that I’ve had to intervene on his behalf more than I ever did with the other two. My friends Pit loves to mount Seamus, if he can. Once, Seamus was drinking from a water bowl while at my friend’s house. The dogs had been freely sharing the water all day and so when Briggs mounted him, I knew it was just because he could, not because of the water. Seamus looked up, gave his tail a wag and went back to drinking. I pulled the other dog off because my friend had told me that seamus was giving me a look that seemed to ask, “Uh… little help here?” Since then, I’ve just pulled Briggs off when he gets mount-happy because Seamus won’t correct him. Though, in true Seamus fashion, he shows no signs of stress over it. I love this dog. 🙂
the comments about clewless humans are right on point. So many people can’t tell the difference between a play growl and an aggressive growl that I’ve watched perfectly fun play sessions get broken up by someone screaming they’re fighting they’re fighting! That person probably startled the dogs at best and like others, I feel pretty helpless in what to do about it.
Kendra says
Hey Trisha,
Thank you for this post! As someone who works at a doggy daycare I definitely am conservative when it comes to dogs getting too aroused, and a loud hey tends to work to calm them down (which is definitely preferable to breaking a finger intervening in a full on fight – ouch!)
I had a question about my own dog, Bojangles. He’s a smooth coated border collie who I rescued three years ago (He is approximately four years old). He loves people and does okay with other dogs. When we got him, we had two elderly shelties (who have since passed) and a cattledog (male) that’s about four years older than him (who we still have). Although he doesn’t play with the ACD much, they get along really well.
Bo’s issue is when other dogs sniff him. He gets very uncomfortable and will get stiff legged and start doing a hard stare and a low growl. I am very good at reading him and will end up redirecting a dog when the sniffing gets too intense and I can tell things are about to escalate. However, sometimes things escalate before I can intervene. Bo will snap and explode at the other dog, loudly and often with a nip (he’s never done more than pull out some fur, but it definitely gets his message across that he wants them to leave him alone). He doesn’t do this to every dog – it tends to especially be puppies and dogs with very high energy levels. And he always gives signals first that he isn’t going to tolerate the sniffing, his signals are just often ignored (despite seeming very clear to me!) When he tolerates a quick sniffing, I give him lots of praise for being such a good dog. Is there anything I can do to change this? Sniffing seems like such a fundamental part of being a dog, but anytime another dog gets too close to his butt he starts to get stiff and uncomfortable. I’ve never seen a dog be so sensitive about this before! He does just fine with other dogs as long as the sniffing isn’t pushed onto him persistently, but since this is integral to dog-dog interactions, this is quite a frequent occurrence. (Oh and just as a note, this never occurs with him when he’s on leash because I know leashes can make a difference. This is all in fenced in areas where the dogs are free to move about.)
Trisha says
You’re not alone Kendra, I know lots of owners whose dogs do the same thing. That’s part of why I always emphasize to keep things moving–lots of dogs don’t like intense sniffing. I wonder if it’s because the dogs are forced into such close contact before actually greeting one another. I’d either clap my hands and walk away on a “walkies” as soon as another dog sniffs mine (don’t wait for him to become uncomfortable) and/or put urinating on cue so that he can leave a calling card for the other dog to sniff without being in such close proximity.
Trisha says
To MeredithS: Oh, I wish I had a magic wand and could help you with the two females who aren’t getting along. There MIGHT be something you could do, but it would require extensive work and some risk. I’d suggest that it might not be worth it since it is only an issue when your daughter comes to visit. Sorry about the boarding fees, but cheaper than major surgery. (Question? Could your own dog go to a friend’s while your daughter’s came to visit?)
MeredithS says
Thanks, Trisha, for your kind comment! The problems occur, actually, when I visit my daughter 3 hours away by car with my dog … and, yes, I will have to board my dog but it is expensive for me to do so. And, I miss her, to be honest 🙂 But, you are absolutely correct in your weighing of the pros/cons and I will just let this one go. However, I have learned a lot since their 1st disastrous meeting and I will NEVER let that happen again if I am able to anticipate at all … It all probably could have been avoided by my daughter’s dog being on-leash and not allowed to rush my dog (who was on-leash) when we first arrived. Not a good start and it went downhill from there. Thank you again.
Gayla says
On the subject of hackles; I understand that it is considered a sign of arousal, and not necessarily an indication of aggressiveness, since some dogs will piloerect when playing or eating. But I wonder if those same dogs are the ones that can easily “tip over” into aggression in play or have resource guarding issues around their food?
Amy says
Hi Tricia!
This is both similar AND a little sideways, I hope that’s okay.
There has been a flurry (multiple times a day) sightings of coyotes in my area. Neighbors here communicate with each other quite a lot and someone shared a video of an interaction between what appears to be a juvenile coyote and her friends dog. The video is here: https://plus.google.com/photos/116701433326688880402/albums/6013134191031868993?authkey=CM39xrfPv7DLCQ (the quality is not the best, about half way though the coyote pauses to chew on a sprinkler head).
There is nothing aggressive about it, watching the dog and coyote is fascinating to me (no direct eye contact, play bows, lying crawls) and the coyote is clearly attempting to ignore that there is a human involved.
I really thought it was interesting and was curious to get feedback on not just the interaction but educating people about how to respond when a coyote shows curiosity toward your dog.
Kendra says
Thank you so much for your advice Trisha, that makes a lot of sense to me and I will definitely try it in the future! It’s good to know he isn’t the only dog that gets uncomfortable in those kinds of situations =)
em says
Pondering some of the comments on the subject of piloerection, I found myself mulling over a question that I’ve been considering for a while.
Is it possible for a physical adjustment of a dog’s body to ease tension or arousal? I’m not talking about a correction or redirection/distraction, but a touch simply intended to reverse the physical signs of arousal. I ask because it’s something that seems to work for me, but I’m not entirely certain why.
The Backstory: We live on a quiet dead-end street, and as a result, the dogs have gotten into the habit of reacting rather more intensely and vociferously than I like when they see strangers near our house. Sandy is fairly easy to verbally redirect, but once Otis fixes on something, he is very difficult to interrupt- most efforts to block or redirect him only intensify his arousal.
The Action: I have had the best luck with a very low-key approach -quiet, calm, soft vocal acknowledgement, coupled with light touch. If he has piloerected, I smooth the hair back down, and often place a gentle hand in the center of the top of his head (he generally loves this-head rubbing is his favorite petting), which has the effect of gently pressing his ears down and back into a more normal position. I never ever hold him still, body-block, pursue him if he moves away or apply hardly any pressure at all, but what I find is that physically adjusting his body in such a way as to reverse arousal signs like piloerection and ear-pricking does seem to have an immediate and noticable calming effect. Hair and ears that have been smoothed down are likely to stay down, he is more likely to break his gaze, quiet if he’s barking, and release the tension in his muscles than he would be if I ignored him or only spoke without this type of touching.
What I wonder is this: Is it the physical manipulation itself that is causing this calming, or is it just that this kind of interaction is distracting or reassuring?
I also wanted to add- even though Otis is showing more arousal than the level (zero) I want to see, his level is still quite low and he is very much in control of himself. Even in fairly extreme (dog attack) situations, his bite inhibition is extremely high and he has never shown the slightest inclination to transfer aggression from one target to another, so I feel 100% comfortable with close physical interaction with him when he is showing signs of arousal- I wouldn’t recommend this as a safe practice with all dogs, though.
em says
@ Amy- That is an amazing video! I know a few people whose dogs have had interactions with coyotes, but never heard of anything like that!
Generally, it’s the dogs who want to play and the coyotes who are nervously trying to defend a den site without actually antagonizing the dog/human. Fascinating.
I suppose that since the deer, squirrels, and rabbits in my neighborhood are really challenging the definition of “wild” by acting like free-roaming livestock, completely unafraid of human proximity, it’s probably just a matter of time before the canids follow suit. 🙂
On a serious note, do you mind if I ask where you are, generally? Some very interesting research has been done locally about our coyote population, and I’ve been hearing talk of re-classifying Northeastern Coyotes as a different species (some already refer to them as coy-wolves) based on their physical and behavioral differences with western populations. I wonder if interactions like the one you filmed will become more common?
Amy says
Em,
I am in southern California, a beach community, a mile or so from high bluffs that go down to the beach.
I thought it was really unusual too. I just wish the video was better quality.
Bianca Schmid says
A little late to the game, but here it goes:
I tend to see it much more often that people step in when there is no need to step in, especially if there is a level of breed related prejudice. Being the proud owner of a very well-socialised staffordshire bull terrier, this is a sore point for me.
My 2 year old staffy girl Amaya has been socialised with dogs of all sizes since she was 9 weeks old. She now can play with dogs off all sizes and is quite adept at adjusting her play. Her best friend is a cockapoo and while they rough and tumble extensively, her play is at a much lower level when playing with him that when she plays with her GSD friend or the Presa Canario/Pit bull cross we often walk with.
A couple of weeks ago, at the end of our weekly agility lesson, Amaya was playing with a Swedish Vallhund. They were having a great time rolling around, trading being the one on top regularly. Suddenly, the Vallhund’s owner looks over during a time when Amaya was on top and she intervenes, pulling her dog away from under my dog, and saying that the play was getting out of hand and her dog was afraid because she had been attacked by a staffy in the past. Completely ignoring that until 1 minute earlier, it was Amaya who was on her back and the Vallhund “throned” on top of her or that both dogs had big wide grins on their faces and there had been no growls or yelps from either of them. Here, it was clearly the owner who let her actions be dictated by previous bad experiences and not the dog.
However, in our usual gang, all the dogs have known each other since they were between 3-5 months old and not only do we know our dogs well enough to decide when we need to step in, we also trust each other with each other’s dogs. We know Amaya and the beagle can sometimes get possessive over a ball or stick, so their playtime is closely monitored. We have become quite adept at catching the moment when the chasing for the same stick turns into “MINE!!” and we can often distract them before a spat even happens. If we are too slow, and a spat happens (always lots of noise and showing of teeth with no actual contact/biting), we call them away, make them sit, both get a couple of minutes time-out, the offending stick/ball is removed and then they are back to being best friends. Never has it even been necessary to pull them apart, calling them away from the situation has always been enough.
But I also had situations when I wished that other owners would have stepped in sooner. Specifically with one dog who seems to take issue with mine. This other girl, lets call her Jammy, appears to be completely zoom onto my dog when they meet but ONLY if she is with her female owner. With her dad or dog walker, she does not care much about my dog but if she is with her mom, there can be 20 dogs around (which is not a rare number, especially in summer time) but if Jammy sees my dog, the others might as well not exist. She runs up to my dog, keeps blocking her path, hind legs trembling with what I assume is nervous tension and barks in Amaya’s face with a high-pitched frequency. Amaya does not like being barked in the face and always seeks protection at my feet. I tend attempt to step between them, to body block Jammy away from my girl but Jammy is very fast and easily outmaneuvers me and gets in Amaya’s face. Now, if I was Jammy’s owner, I would have put her on the lead ages ago. If I saw Amaya from a distance, Jammy would instantly go on the lead but her actual owner always stands there and just goes “I don’t know why she is doing this. Maybe it’s because she had a brindle litter mate? It is only Amaya she is doing this to.” Then she might start calling her dog, but Jammy is now so riled up and shrill, she is not listening at all.
The last time, Amaya with her saint-like patience took this for about 5 minutes before she tried to push Jammy out of the way and, you guessed it, Jammy escalated into full-blown aggression. This is one of the maybe 3-4 occasions (2 of which were with Jammy) where I physically intervened and not even with my dog. I grabbed Jammy’s collar, told Amaya to back off – which she did – and pulled Jammy the other way. I then almost begged Jammy’s mom to PLEASE put her dog on the lead if she saw us coming from a distance to avoid such confrontations. I have not put this to the test yet and instead changed directions myself if I see them coming.
Donna says
Hi Trisha,
I have enjoyed reading about your careful efforts to introduce Maggie and Willie, mainly because my own recent experience has been anything but well planned or coordinated. In fact it has been basically backwards, upside down and inside out from any kind of good introduction.
Back in early November, the following critters shared my home:
Sunny, 15, a Beagle/Spaniel mix with the sweetest nature. She had moved with me from New York to Southern Wisconsin 7 years ago. Sunny was in poor health and rapidly approaching the end of her life.
Nine cats ranging in age from 8 to 16 years, also from New York.
Kiah, 5, a black Cocker/Aussie mix who delights in driving me crazy. I got her when she was 5 months old from a couple who could not keep her due to health issues. In spite of being well socialized from a few weeks old, she became dog aggressive after being jumped by a dog at the dog park when she was just under a year old.
Then on the fifth of November the adventure began. I was driving home from work at 5:30 AM when a funny looking creature dashed in front of my truck, and zig zagged in front of other vehicles. I stopped, it jumped into the truck on it’s own, and I drove home. I crated Kiah, then brought this strange little dog in and examined her. It was an unspayed female terrier mix, covered with fleas and ticks, no collar or microchip and appeared to have had a litter in the past. She had the scruffy face and large ears of a Cairn Terrier on the body of maybe a large Rat Terrier, all covered with tan wiry fur and a long tail that curled over the back. She was maybe 2-3 years old, weighed in at 24 lbs and was 16 inches high at the shoulder. I couldn’t stop laughing–she was one of the funniest looking dogs I had ever seen. She was very calm, and the cats were not afraid of her. (They are not fond of Kiah.) Whoever had her before housebroke her and crate trained her. But she didn’t seem to know any commands.
By the time the animal control officer arrived, I had fallen in love. It was decided she would stay here while a search was done for her owner. No owner was ever found, no missing dog report ever filed.
The insanity began! Going into the worst winter I have experienced in 30 years, we were all cooped up in my old house, with small rooms, a narrow hallway, narrow doors and numerous bottlenecks. In other words, no way for the 2 active dogs to avoid each other. (I should mention my yard is not fenced, and the street is moderately busy. With other dogs on the block, working out in the yard is not a feasible solution.) We had a couple of scuffles the first few days, when I got my signals crossed and let one out before crating the other. Kiah out weighs Scruffy by almost 15 pounds, so Scruffy always ends up on the bottom. I went into this determined to make it work, but also with a plan to find another home for Scruffy if she was always living in fear.
I did quite a bit of research on the ‘net, and got your book and dvd on multi-dog households. It gave me a lot of ideas, and hope that this could work. I did a lot of alternate crate time, leashes on both dogs when they were both out, and initially, muzzles. Scruffy was very good at getting hers off, so I gave up on that. I started a morning routine of showing them a “special” treat such as cheese or lunch meat. They both have to sit, then lie down, then sit again. They are so focused on the treat they forget about being in close proximity to each other. When they get the treat, I keep telling them what good dogs they are. In fact if anyone were to listen at the door, they would think I was nuts. I do a lot of intervening by walking between them, talking in a very cheerful voice about “what good dogs we are—we all get along, and we are friends”. As others have mentioned, keeping them moving distracts them and defuses any tension building up. Sunny died in December, so I was able to devote more time to the 2 younger girls.
As time went on, things were going reasonably well. They would steal each others chew toys, and walk past each other warily, but peacefully. There was some very careful butt sniffing, and a bit of tail wagging. I was very encouraged. Then I threw a monkey wrench into the works. At the end of February I got Scruffy spayed and had damaged dew claws on her back legs removed. This resulted in the need for her to wear a cone for 2 weeks. I had to keep them separated, and Scruffy had to sleep in Kiah’s larger crate. Once her recovery was over, I began re-introducing them, with disastrous results. With the hormone changes in Scruffy, the dynamics were now changing. We had 2 knock-drag-out pier 6 brawls. Both times I had gotten careless, and they had collided in a narrow space. I fueled the fire by freaking out and screaming at them. (That is definitely not a good technique for breaking up a dog fight!) One fight resulted in a trip to the vet—Scruffy had a puncture wound on her leg. I was very depressed, but kept at it with increased emphasis on ‘waiting’ to go through doors, or to eat their food, and general politeness. After a couple of weeks of careful monitoring, we had one scuffle that broke up very quickly. With the weather improving, we have been able to have individual walks and outings, to release some of the pent up energy. Scruffy needs some socialization—she goes ballistic when she sees another dog. She is a bit timid, and I can’t raise my voice to her—she retreats to her crate. That is the opposite of Kiah’s bossy, in-your-face personality.
So how is all of this working? Well, as I am writing both dogs are asleep by my feet, about 10 inches apart. They pass each other with averted eyes, and sneak a butt sniff every so often. We haven’t had a fight in weeks. Of course all is not perfect. I separate them when I leave the house or sleep. But they are often alone together in a room for a few minutes at a time, and seem to be handling that. They manage to sit a few feet apart while I prepare their treat balls or dinner.
My hope is that Kiah will come to accept that all other dogs are not her enemy. She does seem to be less reactive when we go out to the park. I do tend to intervene a lot, but feel it is far better in the long run than injured and frightened dogs. And I am doing much less intervening than I did a few weeks ago. As with human kids, they get more freedom as they earn it by making good decisions.
I do thank you for the tips and info available on your website, as well as the books and dvds. They have given me the tools to work with these 2 very different personalities at the same time.
Greta says
This is a great blog == a topic that comes up all the time. I seem to do a ton of work with dogs who are lousy greeters. Some are outright aggressive and too dangerous to allow to greet, but most are, for whatever reason, OK if the greeting can be made to go well.
So that is my other big category for which I will intervene early and often. If I know one of the dogs is a bad greeter, I know that the slightest non-perfectly-neutral response from the other dog (play solicitation, lip lift, etc.) may set off an explosion. Even if it’s not likely to be a damaging explosion, I know that this is the exact scenario the lousy greeter has rehearsed many times, so I’m going to intervene (with a cheery call-off if humanly possible). Of course when working with these dogs — just did this today — I use very attenuated approaches with specific techniques to slow things down, take the tension out, and basically ensure that the greeting will go well. I’m blessed with two personal dogs who are extremely good at this, so I get to do a lot of this kind of work.
So I’m avoiding harm, but it’s not immediate. It’s cumulative and I’ll go to lengths to permit further repetitions.
Normally, when working this problem I make sure to reinforce some desirable alternative behaviors in my client’s dog before we ever get to this point — usually a quick call-away, which I have the dog practice (so he knows what to do) and my client practice (so she can manage to sound upbeat while possibly panicking).
This is actually one of my favorite things to rehab. I’m probably a little weird.
Greta says
Hackles: A huge problem with interpreting hackles is that they seem to vary wildly from dog to dog.
I had two Aussies (both passed away last year). My male was a relatively low arousal, unreactive dog. He was genuinely dog-aggressive if a dog really got into his face (and toward Boxers… ahem), but mostly minded his own business. He was in quite a lot of spats and fights since I was an idiot for the first several years I had him. I never once in 14.5 years saw him raise a single hackle. Ever. My female was an anxious, reactive dog who actually did not want to fight. She has a lovely slick long top coat and minimal undercoat. She would put up tremendous hackles, withers down to her nub, at numerous opportunities. They were amazing — she could stand her hair up about six inches and it made her look like a little red Stegosaurus. Hackles were generally a bad sign, since she would shoot off quite easily.
My current BC hackles when she is angry/agonistic. However, her arousal is far higher when she’s doing flyball or agility and I’ve never seen her hackle at these times; so it’s not “just arousal.” She has fantastic social skills. I’ll watch her if she hackles but in most cases things will be fine. She is not interested in fighting although will if she feels she must.
My Borderjack is an odd duck. I’ve seen him hackle, but rarely. He tends to avoid most conflict, unless you are a male foster dog who has outstayed his welcome; then he turns into a terrier. He will genuinely fight (I once had to use a break stick to detach him from one of my Aussies, sadly). Still, rare hackles. If he hackles, we have trouble and I’m intervening FAST.
I think you pretty much have to know the dog to know what it means!
chloe says
When I walk my client’s dogs or petsit I am extremely cautious. If the dogs are used to eating in the same room I will stand overseeing until all bowls are pickup. I am cautious in tight hallways etc etc. I can’t fully know their relationship over a couple of days. Same with walking. I do not take my clients dogs to dog park and I will cross the street if I have any questions about an approaching dog.
My dog is a female 8 year old BC who overall is happy to say hello and move on. But she cannot stand pushy dogs and will show teeth, growl and eventually nip. Of course if I knew that the other dog would take no for an answer all would be fine but when if it is any of the bulldog breeds, or enthusiastic lab, and any of the ‘guard dog breeds’ her growl will instigate a full on fight and she will be mauled. So we are cautious. i will let her say hello and say ok lets go and if need be body block the dog while telling owner, sorry she’s a bit bitchy. However if my dog or any clients dog is approached very quickly on the street by a dog I will say please call your dog, cross the street, and or say I just want to walk by or if still I get no help from owner of pushy dog I will finally say emergency stitches are very expensive please call your dog.
My last dog was attacked, my dog now was bitten twice unprovoked.
The level of training most city dogs have unfortunately is very very bad, and the dog owners unable to call their dogs back to them end up getting mad at me simply for asking to pass without interactions. And I’m talking about leashed areas or street surrounding a park.
chloe says
I also wanted to add that I find this topic very very complex even after working with dogs for 35 years
There are the very straight forward I’m going to bite but then there are the 100 other possibilities.
For example, one excitable dog barking at ?? anything, may send an other usually very mellow peaceful dog into an energy burst into biting his or her companion.
So I try very very hard to be in touch grounded and paying attention to the energy between dogs how tense their bodies are and what the tail is doing etc. it’s so hard because some dogs don’t give any signals
So I still think having a very good obedience foundation is the key to getting out of difficult situations. I especially the ‘down command’ for a time out.
Robin Jackson says
I have a cousin with working dogs on a working farm. If one of the dogs begins annoying another, he calmly walks over to the picked on dog, put his hands on him/her on the side closest to the bullying dog, looks straight at the bullying dog and says firmly but quietly, “Mine.” Works every time. I’ve always found it very interesting because he doesn’t chide the bullying dog or even ask for an alternative behaviour.
This isn’t a behaviour for breaking up an active fight. It’s just for those situations where one dog has started being too assertive with another, posturing, nipping, driving him off, etc. My cousin just redefines the social dynamic by in essence laying a “blanket of protection” over the dog who needs it.
I’ve never seen anyone else do this, and I think it only works with dogs from the same household, but it is interesting.
DS says
Thanks for the great blog, Trisha! I always learn from it.
Thanks, also, to Em for the lovely coyote video. I really enjoyed it. I worked with, rehabbed and hand-raised coyotes and am very, very fond of them. Like some dog breeds they are seriously misunderstood.
Liz says
I’m wondering when/how I should have interfered between a new, younger dog and much older, sight and health impaired resident dog? The new dog was a Papillon rescue who preferred to be an only pet. I wasn’t knowledgeable enough to recognize or know what to do when the Alpha Papillon started dominating/intimidating the old, gently raised from puppy, Shih Tzu. There was no biting, just physical intimidation. I only realized how bad it was when the vet said the Shih Tzu’s dramatic hair loss was due to stress. Eventually the Shih Tzu passed on and the Papillon is now experiencing Karmic justice via a confident rescue cat. But would be nice to know how to handle new vs resident dog such as I described.
Jen says
This is something I’ve been dying to know! How do I learn more about dog behavior and body language?
M says
Fantastic topic and well written!
We had a situation a while back, with a slightly, and selectively DA foster. We had another VERY LARGE GSD foster, who’d had a rough go of things as well. We’d been keeping them separated for safety sake. Unfortunately our “security” failed and DA foster got to the other dog’s area.
We were scared, and were about to intervene. WORST intervention EVER. Do not yell or tense up when intervening in any interaction unless it is a short command you know will be followed (COME to a dog with good recall). WE caused the problem to escalate to snaps and bared teeth because both of us there yelled, different things, over each other, the dogs were tense and got tenser. No major injuries, though there was a redirection that got one of us (stupid) humans.
Had we just each gone and gotten between the dogs before they got closer and escalated, calmly gotten some attention on us, the whole situation would have been diffused. I’ve interveined quietly and successfully at the dog park and on walks with strange dogs. I recall one I think was guarding his yard, leashless and free, snarling, running up on me and my dog. I stepped up, told him to go home, went to the other side of the road (with my super social girl in tow), and we went on our merry way.
When stepping in, ALWAYS stay as absolutely calm as possible, its much better not learning that lesson the hard way.
Tessa says
I have a male heeler/husky cross that is dominant but very sage. He will either trot up to another dog, sniff them, then leave and go about his business, or leave them alone entirely. He never has aggressive behavior or starts fights.
This dog is what I would like to refer to as a sh*t magnet, however. Many male dogs in particular do NOT like this dog. He will be trotting along by the bushes sniffing, peeing, minding his own business and dogs will come out of nowhere to attack him. Thankfully he’s very good about this and only retaliates with the same amount of force as the attacking dog, never taking the scuffle further than the other dog. I know my dog will not escalate a tussle, so I usually rely on watching the aggressor for signs that they’re going to take it a little too far. If it looks like it’s going to turn into an all-out brawl I will stop it.
This dog is also very clear about his signals to other dogs.
My other dog, however, will give other dogs very mixed signals which confuses and frustrates them, so I tend to prevent any tension between her and strange dogs. She’s very insecure and not very socially adept and it can cause big problems.
Kathy Northover says
My ten year old spayed female was not happy when I brought a new puppy home. She growled at her all of the time and the puppy was trying to be friends but frightened. The older dog bullied her and even gave her mixed messages by presenting a toy while growling. My instinct was to interfere but I followed the advice of a behaviorist who said not to do so unless the puppy was being hurt and then only to take the puppy away, not to correct the older dog. It was a very traumatic time for all of us. They are fine together now but my puppy is fear reactive with other dogs. I cannot blame this situation entirely as there is a strong genetic component as well. If I could step back in time, I would have made a different choice and would have tried to teach more tolerance to my older girl.
Becky O'Reilly says
Great article. I seem to have natural adopted your ‘air on the side of caution’ approach with my Rhodesian Ridgeback Daisy. Daisy is a rescue we took her from a neglectful and abusive home when she was a year and a half! she had no training and had no Socialization of the world in general it was tough getting her into shape and we were not prepared just how wilful this breed of dog was either and being a year and half year old made it a challenge! Any way with lots of work she has come on in leaps and bounds but she still has some kinks that I just can’t seem to get her head around. at 8 years old she has finally work out that she does not have to go on the offensive when walking on the lead and sees another dog walking on the other side of the road. So her meet and greeting skills of other dogs in the park maybe another aspect that will one day click with her too, but till then I have to always ‘air on the side of caution’ an observe her when she meets and greets other dogs off lead in the park. She seems fine with smaller dogs and springer spaniels but with bigger dogs or dogs who show nervous and submissive behaviour she will go on the offensive growling and trying to dominate them. with bigger dogs I can see she feels nervous and unsure but when I call her back she wont come but rather just freezes on the spot getting growly as the other dog sniffs her and I know if I don’t brake it up she will turn and snap at the other dog. other times she get snappy with dogs who she wants them to play with her and they don’t want to and ignore her so she will run up to them barking trying to get them to play. then with very small dogs she seem to get over excited about this small fluffy thing running around that she has to chase and when she catches up with them she flips them with her nose so I do have to be causes when she wants to go an play with another dog as I never know if it will a good day or a bad day as when she has a good day she is a perfect text book of how a good dog should play so I just have to take each day with her. I know her fear with other dogs is an anxious fear rather than her just being aggressive and I have been told by past trainers the more I expose her and the more good experiences she has the more confident she will be and my last trainer did offer us to join her on a group walk she does for nervous dogs but at the time these walks happened it was during the week day at 10am and both I and my partner were working so couldn’t be free to join these.
Erin says
I have a handful of intact male Border Collies that live in my house and work my stock. I can’t say that I’ve had a fight in many many years. Most of my guys are mostly socially appropriate. I have one that can be a bit of a dick that I do watch with new dogs, bitches are pretty good at correcting him appropriately and so far he’s been ok with other males, submitting quickly when appropriate. He’s a bit of a pushy bully even towards livestock, so it does not surprise me that he is also his way in his off work life. Generally among other Border Collies( like bring new dogs home or in for training) I let my dogs sort it out more or less, I’ve found most working dogs have good dog social skills and general good temperament.
With my own puppies I try to let the older dogs raise them socially as much as they will tolerate it 😉
However, when we go hiking or out and about, I generally keep strange dogs at a distance no matter the breed.
Lisa says
Hi,
I have a staffy desexed 6yr old boy who is the biggest baby and just loves to play with other dogs. He is polite when he approaches any and sort of hangs back to see if they want to play. Unfortunately he has been attacked a few times, and has been traumatic for him and us. The first time he was at dog park just paddling in the shallow river with a couple of other dogs when suddenly a ridgeback/mastiff who was retrieving a ball from the water over and over (like obsessed) suddenly lunged at my poor boy and started fiercely attacking him. My staffy looked terrified and tried to get away but this bastard dog had him by the back of the throat in lockjaw and was ripping his neck. I tried to pull its tail off while the owner tried to pry its jaw open and nothing worked. My son eventually kicked it in the nose hard and it let go. My staffy had neck injuries and was absolutely terrified after it. A few days later someone told me they heard my screaming from across the river and 2 streets away! The second time was when a little Maltese terrier came flying out its gate and was going savage at him, but didn’t cause any damage and my boy just mentally shook it off, and the third time was another staffy who went flying past my staffy and I who were sitting on the grass and so my boy got up and ran to see what the other dog was running to. I got up and followed and as I came around the corner I saw this staffy savaging attacking my dog with his big savage owner standing there smiling . I screamed at him to help me but he said no I’m not going to get bitten! I went straight in and tried to pull the dog off mine and pull his jaw open (I know this is all the wrong things to do but I wasn’t thinking). I did manage to get them apart and then realised after the man finally took hold of his dog and left that I had been bitten badly. I didn’t even feel it when it happened! My hand later that night swelled up so huge and the pain was one of the most intense agonies I’ve ever had. I would do it again if I had to to though to protect my dog. The lasting result of this is that I am now terrified of any dog that comes up to mine at the dog park. And although I constantly read and learn about their interactions and the signs of aggression I am now the owner who overreacts to every little growl, rough play, jerky movements. I am an absolute wreck! My dog is ok because we just kept taking him back to show him other nice dogs and letting him play with them (well I had to stand far away so he couldn’t feel my anxiety-while my son encouraged him to play). Thank you for your article.. I am trying to learn as much as I can so I can relax at the dog park. Regards Lisa 🙂
Bruce says
Necro-bump, but I wanted to respond to Trish’s question about intervening or not, and how it worked out.
Red Dog plays with a large male German shorthaired pointer at the dog park, and my wife was concerned that the two dogs were playing too rough. Specifically, if Red Dog was on her back the GSP would pin her down and “bite” at her neck. When this happened the GSP’s owner would break up the interaction with a squirt bottle of water.
I was able to observe the behavior for the first time last night, with Red Dog on the bottom and the GSP mouthing her neck. Red Dog did not seem stressed so I let the play continue. After more running around and a pause, the GSP rolled on his back and let Red Dog mouth his neck. Apparently the two dogs had not read the research about 50:50 play and traded off being “victim” and “aggressor” pretty evenly. At no point did either dog seem stressed, and they eventually lay down side by side, panting like a pair of steam engines.
The next morning Red Dog met a big Lab mix. The two dogs quickly began to play, alternating between chasing and wrestling. Similarly, the two dogs took turns playing “killer neck bite”, again with no discernible signs of stress from either dog.
I do worry sometimes whether Red Dog’s play with bigger dogs will adversely affect her self-handicapping when she plays with old dogs and smaller dogs. So far she has continued to do a good job of modulating play intensity to suit her playing partner.
Lorraine says
I would like to ask for some tips on how to pacify a dog if it’s dog playmate is having a down time? I have 2 dogs: one is of a mixed breed, the other a Chihuahua. The Chihuhua had an accident lately that resulted in injuring her right hind leg. This prompted me to keep her in a cage for a while so that she can recover quickly. Unfortunately, this had an adverse effect on dog number one. The moment the other dog has been kept on a cage, he starts barking. This of course annoyed my neighbors. Do you have any tips that might help me out in this situation?
Bruce says
@ Lorraine: We just went through a similar situation. Our Pug had to be crated after knee surgery, and our 1-year old 50-pound bundle of energy missed her main playmate. Tiring out the 1-year old dog helped a lot, especially play sessions at the dog park. For your dog, it depends on whether you are around when the barking takes place. If the barking is when you are around, search this website for an article titled “Behavior Interruptus” – it contains some good suggestions for barking dogs.
Follow-up to previous post about Red Dog and the German shorthaired pointer: The two met at the dog park for the first time in a while, were clearly overjoyed to see each other, and played beautifully together – mostly full-speed running and dodging with a little wrestling mixed in.
I am very happy with how this turned out. I think that avoiding anthropomorphism (“I would not like being on my back with a dog’s teeth at my throat”) and figuring out whether the dog is stressed or not is the key.
Lavinia says
Hi Patricia,
I must say that your books and writings are really usefull, inspiring and funny!
I was wondering if you could give me some advice: I just got two female puppies, a collie of eleven weeks and a flat coated of ten. They are very different dogs and when, three days ago the flat arrived, I had the feeling that the collie didn’t appreciate that: she has a very assertive behaviour, she controls each move the other dog makes, she robbs toys from the mouth of the flat and she absolutedly wants to walk in front of her (she bites the flat’s neck in order to keep her away from me while we are walking). I think she might be jealous and dominant.
They spend toghether most of the time and apparently they get on with each other quite well, except when they start fighting and I cannot say if they are still playing or they want to kill each other: they bite and tug the other’s muzzle, neck, throat, ears and paws and sometimes they even growl, they are not actually wagging their tails meanwhile. Occasionally someone yelps and they stop but just for a few secs, they then start again with even more violence. I tried using my voice, setting them phisically apart or leaving the place, but without any results.
I don’t know what to do, I fear that this behaviour could develop in something serious once they are grown up dogs, so that they injure themselves.
What would you suggest to do??
Thanks
Chris jackson says
Not so much a comment as a question. Our two boys Alain and Theodora come from the same litter and overwhelmingly they are good together but our Elizabeth came into heat last si]immersed and there was rel conflict which I fully understand. Elizabeth had her puppies, is now ‘fixed’ and no more puppies are possibl3. However the boys’ relationship is on the rocks. When they see each other they display all the indicators for a fight and when I haven’t been quick enough they will fight. Have been keeping them separate but this is not a long term solution. Anyone have any advice?
Liza says
My intact golden retriever male has been attacked twice by neutered male dogs. He did not defend himself in any way. However, now when he meets a male he approaches head high, tale up and makes growling noises. It’s very odd as he is a dog who lets other dogs take toys from him, etc. He doesn’t resource guard and plays very well with females. But his approach to new males gets him in trouble. I have been not letting him meet males or getting in the middle so as to avoid the posturing. Is there any way I can get him to stop coming off as alpha dog, as he is not an alpha dog, and I feel he is setting himself up to be attacked again.
David Cahan says
I don’t know if you actually get the opportunity to read these but if you do I have a question. I own a very sweet pit bull. He loves going to the dog park and playing. He’s extremely gentle with the smaller dogs and plays harder with the bigger ones.
But he DOES NOT like being mounted. And if the other dog won’t stop after he signals it to to stop a fight can ensue although only when the other dog won’t submit. I’ve stopped letting him in with other dogs but he’s miserable. He just wants to go play. The reason I’ve done this is probably my own hangups. I know the reputation pit bulls have and I just don’t want anything to happen that would make someone blame my dog, force him not to be able to come back or worse. I also wouldn’t want my dog to hurt another dog.
The problem is that I don’t think it’s his fault. He doesn’t like being humped. Who would?
Am I doing the right thing or is it the other owners responsibility not to allow that behavior? Either way is there anything I can do to alleviate the situation besides segregating my dog?
Samantha-Fay Leslie says
I have a 1 and a half year old beagle. He is very quiet at home and when I go to the park, but there are two dogs that also go to the park, 10 month old English sheep dog and great dane who is deaf. Now my beagle who is male and fixed loves to be chased. As in he will run and jump up to hit a large dog in the shoulder (not hard) and then take off. The Great Dane and the Sheep dog are the only two he will howl at. With the Great Dane his tail is not between his legs or up high, he will just stand in from of her and howl. But the Sheep Dog on the other hand will stop running after instating the chasing and show his teeth, tail between his legs and howl in his face. My question is, why is my beagle doing that? Is he overwhelmed, scared, aggressive? He never bites or when he does its to pull hair but that’s normally on the shoulder when he does that. He doesn’t do this to other dogs. Just those two. He will also hide under the picnic table and do the same thing. Howl in the Sheep Dogs face. I want to know if this is something I should address or leave it be and why he does this. If I know why I may be able to fix it if it needs to be fixed.
ruth says
We have a 6-7 year old male mix German shepherd not sure what breed the mom was but he stayed short compare to full German shepherds we also have a husky pit bull mix female they get along fine she had puppies 7 weeks ago we recently brought home a 1-2 year old male husky he is taller than our German shepherd and they got into a fight as soon as the saw each other they were separated right away none was hurt but we have not been able to have them unleashed because they continue to go at each other but they are both fine with the female been around them, they have fight twice in 2 weeks because the husky gets loose what can we do to help them get along
cody says
Patricia, thanks for your insight. This morning I dropped my 7 year old mixed breed dog off at doggie daycare and one of the attendants told me that my dog lacked social skills because yesterday he was surrounded by a group of dogs who would not let him move and he growled at them. My dog has never been aggressive with other dogs, always shares his food and toys, but he does not like to be surrounded by other dogs and will let them know when it has gone on too long. A few months ago he was attacked by an aggressive collie at this same daycare (that dog has since been banished) and he required stitches on a fairly large wound on his hind quarters. I think his response is a normal and quite healthy reaction and it concerns me that the daycare staff thinks he is not socialized properly.
Trisha says
A group of dogs surrounding another and not letting it move is a serious case of bullying, bordering on out and out aggression. If that’s exactly what happened, a growl is more than appropriate. I would have a long talk with the daycare owner and sort this out. No one should have let that incident happen, it should have been stopped long before your dog needed to growl. Good luck, keep us posted.
Lynda says
Hello, thanks for this article. Read this today after taking my puppy – 6 mth old standard poodle to Dog Park. Leo is friendly to other dogs, a little timid at times. There was another puppy there, no problems.
Then this guy arrives and lets both his dogs in, off leash, running straight toward Leo who was on leash, one went to barrel straight for Leo and I stepped in between, Leo screaming in fear. I yelled stop to bigger dog, no response. Owner couldnt even call them back!!
Thankfully Leo was on leash, guy was un apologetic, rude, said its a dog park.
I took Leo out, drove to another area and walked him, checked to make sure we both were ok.
Thanks for some helpful tips here for the future.
Susan Bernhoester says
Good word ” Hey “
Nikki Winstone says
I adopted an older rescue Podenco (male aged 9) from Spain a year ago and was told by the dog rescue centre that he was fine with other people and dogs as he had been fostered with another dog and kept at the rescue centre with another dog. Oh no he isn’t!! It’s been a very steep learning curve having only had dopy dependable friendly labradors before. He is my Jekyll an Hyde – the sweetest most affectionate cuddly dog at home (although he does need space when he is tired, naturally) but reacts when other dogs get in his face and won’t leave him alone. Mostly it’s noise (a lot) but today there was a warning nip when a bulldog puppy would not get the message and leave him alone. I should add that he is permanently on an extendable lead as his prey drive is too strong and he is super fast. essentially he is a sight hound and no squirrel/deer/rabbit would be safe. My biggest problem is owners who let their off leash dog rush up to my on leash dog and have zero recall when mine kicks off with his Tasmanian devil impersonation. My big worry is that another dog is going to react to his reaction and seriously injure him. I also worry that he will give another young dog a bad experience but the puppies who don’t seem to get the message are the worst. My best course of action is avoidance and I have done complete U turns only to have owners chase me down and say ‘he’s friendly’ to which my response is, mine isn’t. I am constantly training with treats to reward non-reactivity in close proximity – Rudy looks to me when he sees another dog close by and gets chicken for not barking and it works but here’s the thing, what do I do when we pass the point of no return and an out of control dog is rushing up to him – I can only beat a hasty retreat and my recent train successes have gone out the window . It’s so frustrating. I have a yellow ‘ I need space’ flag on the lead but am made to feel that I am the pariah for not having a dog that wants to play. He’s clearly had a bad experience before or maybe he’s super protective to his new family but he’s also an older dog with early stage lumbar sacral disease and I just find a lot of dog owners are really inconsiderate of others. I’m so tired of hearing that he ‘just wants to play’ – it’s not a right. I manage the situation as best I can and for the most part it is manageable. I hope that I am giving him a lovely retirement with minimal stress. Gotta be better than being chained up and fed scrap by passers by. It’s really helped reading other people’s stories. I would welcome hearing from others with similar experience or issues and any advice gratefully received!!
Lonia Kay says
I am struggling. We have a 9 year old Great Dane, Chief and a 1 year old Great Dane, Frankie. They have lived together for 6 months with no problems. Chief does have a history of being in dog fight previously but we were not sure if he started it or not. He was very badly injured and took weeks to recover. They are intact. My husband raised Chief as a single man and didn’t believe is making him loose his manhood. Frankie is now old enough to be neutered but every time I bring it up the subject gets changed. We wanted to grow our dog family and introduced a 6 year old neutered male Great Dane named Andre. I did the introductions all wrong. I just brought him into the home and for 24 hours there were no issues. Frankie is high energy and would try to play with Andre and Andre would give him a low growl after Frankie had been bothering him for 20 minutes. I am watching them, not leaving them alone, they each have a bed to lay on and separate bowls. I go to the bathroom and come out to Chief and Frankie in a full on dog fight. I clapped to try and get them stop stop and Chief bites my hand. I end up with three puncture wounds and in the ER after they finally settled down enough for me and my son to pull the apart. I tell my son under no circumstances do you put them together. One stayed in the basement and one stayed upstairs. I kept them apart for 24 hours. They both have minor injuries. I get them both muzzles and introduce them slowly. Andre is no longer in our home at this point. Chief is snarling and growling while Frankie is cowering. I try to intervene and they both go at it again but with muzzles so no injuries. They have no been separated for 3 days. If Chief hear Frankie bark or whine he starts growling. I’m scared to be in the same room with him. He is 180 lbs and a foot taller than me on his hind legs. I find out I need surgery on my hand so I can’t intervene with them at any point in the near future. What do I do?
Melissa McCue-McGrath says
Oh, Lonia! What a challenging situation, indeed. I think your best bet would be to get some help as soon as you can in your home. https://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/web/committees-applied-behavior-directory.php is a link to help you get started – these are all certified applied animal behaviorists, and if they can’t help you directly, they can certainly help get you to the right person nearest to your location. I feel like I can responsibly recommend a veterinarian consultation if this behavior is new, and sudden. We all snap more quickly when we are stressed out or not feeling well, and this sounds like a perfect storm of a lot of stress – if there is any medical contributing factor, only a veterinarian can help sort it out.
This sounds like a very complicated and difficult position for you and I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.