The seminar in Arroyo Grande was great fun; the hosts at Gentle Touch Pet Training could not have been kinder, more supportive or better organized. The afternoon half day session on Play was a joy–and all that work creating a new seminar felt well worth it by the end of the day. During the Play Seminar and the Dog-Dog Reactivity sessions I got lots of questions from the audience, some of which I was able to answer that day, but some of which I didn’t get to. I thought I’d address some now, since there were some great ones that I thought deserved an answer.
One written question related to dogs who are over reactive when they see other dogs: “Is there ever a point where you give up on behavior modification and recommend strict management only?” Good question, yes? And the answer is YES and NO. There are certainly times in which I recommend strict management practices must always be followed. For example, I showed a video of a dog named Oscar, whose owners worked with me for over two years. Oscar was adopted from a shelter, taken to dog training class a few weeks later, walked into the door of the classroom and immediately crushed the skull of a young beagle after briefly sniffing it. What a nightmare. However, because of the dedicated work of the owners, Oscar changed from a dog who became physiologically hysterical when he even saw a dog blocks away, to a dog who was able to be loose in my pasture with Luke and Lassie. Except for one thing: Oscar had on a muzzle, and I strongly recommended that Oscar never ever ever be let loose around an unfamiliar dog without a muzzle. Not after causing that much damage, and not after starting as a dog unable to control himself at just the sight of another dog.
But I said “Yes” AND “No” because there are very few contexts in which some behavior modification isn’t useful. Oscar would never be let loose with unfamiliar dogs or taken to a dog park, but he could be taken to the vet clinic without causing a scene, and walking him on a leash was no longer a nightmare. For any dog, I would base my recommendations on how serious the problem was, how much time and interest the owners had to do behavior modification, and the goals of the owners. Bottom line, I’m always an advocate of “better safe than sorry.”
I’m not sorry we got to go to the central coast of California though. It was gorgeous, and we spent an ‘animal rapture’ hour watching Elephant Seals a few miles north of San Simeon (we skipped the Hearst Castle in favor of the seals, pretty clear where our priorities lie!). This time of year the sub-adult and adult males are on the coast to shed their coats (they actually lose an layer of skin too, and look pretty tacky before they are done.) The young males especially spend some of their time sparring together, in preparation no doubt for the breeding season to come this winter. Some of them weren’t doing much self-handicapping, we saw quite a few with bloody necks, although nothing like the wounds seen when they are fighting for real.
Here’s an older male (you can tell by the size of their ‘noses’.. their noses start as little Jimmy Durante buds and grow each year to absurd proportions). This one was all by himself, but making a heck of a racket as he displayed in the waves. (By the way, you can’t get an idea of size in these photos, but males can grow up to 6,000 pounds! These animals are HUGE!)
These two young males (see their smaller noses?) were quite the pair, bellowing and mock biting at each other for the longest time. There were 2 other pairs doing the exact same thing right beside them. Jim got this picture, and about 150 more! It was an amazing experience to watch them, and if you are ever in the area, I highly recommend it. Breeding season is in February, I’d love to go back and watch, then drive up the coast to see the Monarch butterflies hibernating in Big Sur.
Jennifer Hamilton says
Fabulous pictures, by the way. I love watching the seals!
In playing with my dog, I have made a new observation that I wondered if others have noticed. Because my dog lacks energy to play at times, I have built up her play drive using the “Ready, Set, Go” phrases ala Premack Principle. This of course has jazzed her up impressively, even when she’s feeling lazy…she simply can’t resist when she hears the word “Ready”.
But something else I’ve noticed over the past year…her facial and body position change very distinctly now at each word. “Ready” looks like typical having fun play…ears flopping, mouth wide open with tongue hangout and panting, eyes are moving freely, body is loose, etc. But as soon as I say the word “Set”, her head gets still, her mouth closes completely shut, her eyes fixate, breathing almost stops and her body freezes. “Go” of course results in a sudden burst of energy towards whatever she is to go after or catch.
Having a pet resort, I have have always thought of a dog going from open mouth to closed mouth as a “warning” sign or more on the negative side of the scale…more related to fear or concern. Robin Bennett calls it moving from “green” to “yellow” or the “caution, monitor closely” zone.
But recently, I have begun to realize that it may be much more neutral than I always assumed. Perhaps going from open relaxed mouth and body to closed mouth and stiff, frozen body, might also simply mean a dog is “focused”…as in, I need to focus and get ready for my next move. That next move could be to jump and catch a ball…or lunge and bite a stranger. The “focus” position, however, when looked at by itself may not always mean things are getting negative.
As I started to think about other dogs, I realized that this phenomonon is obviously present in border collies when working a herd. When it’s almost time to move, their mouth closes, their bodies get still. Some agility dogs are like this at the starting line, stiff and frozen, waiting for a release word…while others are not, they’re barking and going crazy with what looks like little focus. But with flyball, you almost never see a dog with it’s mouth closed. Interesting, does this say anything about these play or work activities…I don’t know.
All just observations, but the Premack Principle in action has changed my view about whether “closed mouth and stiff body” is necessarily a negative, or pehaps simply a neutral. Of course what comes after “Go” would define the original intention pretty quickly.
Trisha says
Wonderful comments Jennifer, and I couldn’t agree with you more. A closed mouth is DEFINITELY not always a sign of trouble, it is often a sign of focus or concentration. Your comments remind me how important it is to qualify comments about expressions.. I’ve always tried to write or speak that a closed mouth can mean many things, but your comments remind me how easy it is to speak in such a way that the impression is that a closed mouth always means trouble. I see dogs (and people) close their mouths when they are concentrating, are mildly surprised (not hugely, then the mouth opens wide!), focused OR when they are irritated, angry or about to go on offense. Same with stiff body; look at dogs when they pause in play–their mouths are often closed and their bodies are absolutely stiff–but then they erupt in the loose, lateral moves associated with healthy play! Thanks for this comment, I should write a post about it sometime!
Kathi D says
I had a great time at your seminar, Trisha, and came home fired up to get back to working with my dogs. I promptly ordered a Manners Minder and it is great fun to train them on that. It comes with an excellent training DVD as well.
Now I want to hang out at the dog park to watch dogs play, in light of what I learned.
I also have to say that it is such fun to be at a seminar where so much scientific and scholarly information is presented by a woman who then says, “Ooooohhh you are such a GOOD BOY yes you are!” How often do you get to see something like that?
Kathi D says
On the elephant seals: We were there mid-January this year and there were dozens of newborn babies, so the breeding season may be earlier than February, or maybe it’s a long season.
It is such a good thing that people with what we now call reactive dogs can get real help these days. 20+ years ago, when we had our beloved Sheltie Zeke who went into a frenzy around bigger dogs (he was usually OK with tiny dogs) we just did our best never to run into other dogs, and quaked in fear in new places where we didn’t know the “dog layout.” I was mortified to have a dog that couldn’t get along with other dogs, and I never dreamed that there was behavioral help for it–I lived in fear that if I actually asked a trainer for help that they would recommend euthanasia. I will say that I learned a great deal from our 16 years with Zeke, and we haven’t had another reactive dog since. What I say to everyone I see with a puppy is “SOCIALIZE, SOCIALIZE, SOCIALIZE.”
Alessandro Rosa says
Just to add my own observation to Jennifer’s about closed mouth. I hadn’t really thought about it as negative. My 6 month old beagle will often keep his mouth closed when he is calm. He will sit and his mouth is closed and he will just observe; Maybe it is focus or contemplation? I wonder if it isn’t a way of closing off a sense in order to heighten the other senses? He definitely closes his mouth during “turbo sniff” sessions.
I also think he is starting to try and assert himself as an alpha in a lot of situation. If the other dog is definitely in the submissive category and not a beta or an alpha themselves, he will stand very still, tail raised and look away, allowing the other dog, even adult dogs to come to him and sniff. There are even times he won’t reciprocate the sniff and just moves on. At these times he has his mouth closed, but I don’t pick up that he is about to do anything inappropriate.
I also find that it seems to be a point of concentration for a dog. There is a dog in the park that we go to that I have fed treats to since the first day I started going with my pup. I don’t see him that often as his owners and I have different schedules and we don’t always get to the park at the same time. I can be standing a good distance away from him, and if he hasn’t seen me, I can call his name and he will immediately close his mouth and scan to see where his name came from, almost like keeping his mouth open would make it harder for him to locate where the sound of his name came from. Then he will see me and his face bursts into a wide smile with soft happy eyes as he bounds over too me (at least that is how it looks to this simian). He then makes a slight curved approach at the last second so he is broadside of me, pressing his side into my legs to accept back rubs and a treat. Even though he is on a diet right now and is restricted from having treats, he will still respond this way for the back rubs, which is kind of cool.
Ellen Pepin says
Socialize is the word I would stress to anyone with a dog. My dog, Nikki, was adopted from a shelter when she was a little over a year. She had been running loose for about a month. She was very skinny. Nikki was one of the most “reactive” dogs I have ever seen. She was reactive with other dogs, joggers, bicyclists, and just about anything that moved. We had three different trainers for her, but none of them helped much. She actually got thrown out of her first class for going after the other dogs. She was a shepherd/terrier mix who weighed about 44 lbs. What she lacked in size, she made up with attitude. For the first few years we just avoided contact with things that moved. Then I began to read about dog behavior (both of Dr. McConnell’s books and Feisty Fido). I began to use the “watch me” command, and I brought her to see other dogs and joggers to a point just slightly before she reacted. Every time she watched things go by, she got a treat. We gradually got closer and closer. This process took me about five years to get her not to react to moving things. However, she was never off lease near people, and not allowed near small children. We were actually able to take her to the dog park without incident. So what we did was both behavior modification and management.
Ellen
Liz F. says
Add ons to the question: “Is there ever a point where you give up on behavior modification and recommend strict management only?
Jane says
What a great blog post! I have nothing else to add except to say I was just in Santa Cruz. I got to see the seals and go to Monterey Bay Aquarium. Great fun. I wish I had known of your seminar so I could have followed you around like a groupie. I brought along “The Other End of the Leash” and “Alex and Me”.
–Jane J
Betsy C says
I also loved seeing the elephant seals lounging about last year when I visited the Central Coast. What a fantastic planet that we live on, where you can pull over to the side of the road and simply enjoy watching natural behavior amongst wild animals. Thanks for helping me revisit those great memories!
Jessie says
Jennifer-
Yes, that very focused state will produce a closed mouth and forward ears in many, if not all, dogs. If I just say my dog’s name in a certain tone, or have a treat in my hand, she gives me the ears forward, closed mouth and intense concentration because she knows I am about to ask her to do something. If I wait a few beats before asking her to do something, she’ll wriggle and wag her tail and sometimes take a step towards me, as if to say “Come on already–let’s get going with this task!”
It is a good point though. So many people get keyed int to watching one or two easily readable signs in the dog’s behavior and forget that there are many things going on at once that all need to be noticed, and that context is important. I guess the classic example of this would be new dog owners thinking a wagging tail is always good! š
Ed says
Well, to Liz’s question, I have a dog who has some issues with people, and there are times when I don’t trust those people enough to work on her behavior while they’re around. Instead, I keep her in heel or whatever and she doesn’t get the chance to practice correct social behavior. Does this reinforce some stress she might have about people? I don’t know. At the very least, she is missing chances to do the right thing, and learn from that.
I haven’t given up – and in fact am quite proud of where she is now – but I do think that management will always be part of lives.
Some people say four is the magical age, or three years is the magical training period, and dogs who have been aggressive toward people get all better at that benchmark, but no one ever says why. She’ll probably turn four next year, about the same time I’ve had her three years, so I guess if it’s true I”ll find out. (Probably as in she was picked up on the street and her actual age is murky.)
Lacey H says
I have had two dog-reactive dogs. Both of them have taught me quite a lot.
First was Topsy, a tiny shelter dog (selected because my then husband said if I had to have a dog get the smallest one). It was relatively easy to work her through some problems – for instance, a terror of getting into the car turned into enthusiastic car riding. In spite of what I could read (15-20 years ago)and trainer advice, though, I never made much headway with her aggressive explosions when another dog was within a block of her. Since she was tiny she was tolerated on the fringes of obedience classes – we attended several. Once there was an amusing if scary incident: the trainer had done a demo with her highly trained terrier and left the dog on “stay” – then turned to us and said the release word, “okay” – and her dog charged toward us! Luckily I got her attention in time.
My next dog Polka was not as severe a case. She was afraid of all strangers – dogs and humans – (among many, many other things) but was much more flexible than Topsy had been. This time, after working with her and making some progress, I decided to consult a “behaviorist.” This lady had introductory programs for dogs with owners at her place. I brought Polka and explained that I was concerned with her shyness. The lady unfortunately chose Polka as her first subject. She put her (on leash) in a corner, told Polka to stay and told me to call her. When Polka tried to come she got a heavy leash correction. I refused to call her again, and as soon as I got her back we left.
In spite of this, over the next months Polka got better and better, becoming able to enjoy the company of many friendly people and a few dogs. When I was finally able to find a shelter worker who accepted my plea to let Polka advance instead of marching the other dog up to her (Oh! She doesn’t like him!) I was able to add a second dog to the family. With the extensive help of the lady running a private off-leash play group I was able to get Polka to enjoy the company of most other dogs, and then was able to begin fostering other small dogs for rescue.
So, in spite of a rough start, sometimes you can get past a lot of the management issues.
Liz F. says
So, in my above comment I didn’t want to be too loaded or leading… I wanted to throw around the idea of “always seeing your dogs potential for perfection” to see if others had any reaction to this idea.
My experience and reading tell me that statement is basically hogwash. Perfection to humans is very different than perfection to animals. If we, as owners, impose unrealistic expectations on our dogs then we could have an adverse effect on our relationship and perhaps the dog’s behavior (as discussed in the recent “‘Listening’ to our Dogs” post, as well as the archived post “Authentic Happiness”.) Also, if we imposed perfection on ourselves all the time, could you imagine the stress?
However, the idea of remaining hopeful that behaviors can improve makes me remember this trainer’s quote in the long term. I wouldn’t be nearly as critical of the saying if it replaced ‘perfection’ with ‘improvement,’ and if it added an additional line about keeping the best interest of the dog in mind.
So even though I chuckle a little at the thought of a perfect dog, or perfect human for that matter, my spirit is somewhat lifted by the thought of improvement.
I am also lifted by Ed and Lacey and the progress they have made, thanks for sharing. And to Ed, even though your dog may not have every opportunity to practice the right behaviors and learn from them, your noble effort keeps her from practicing the wrong behaviors, too! Thanks for not giving up.
Trisha says
“… potential for perfection” is indeed a thought provoking statement! I share the angst that the dream of ‘perfection’ can invoke… who could possibly expect any dog to be perfect? And what is “perfect” anyway? I’ve known people whose dogs bit and they still described their dog as “perfect.” But I love Liz’s suggestion to change “perfect” “improved” . . . now that’s an idea that can inspire (instead of intimidate!) us all.
Ed says
Thanks, Liz F. She really owes most of her progress to good-natured dog-bait, not me!
As far as “potential for perfection” – you should tweak aphorisms to suit yourself. “Head up, heels down, has always worked for me, but there are folks are nearly break their neck with that mantra. If “improved” works for you, why not?
I’m always struggling with seeing my dog’s potential for wreaking havoc with her poor impulse control, so trying to see the potential for perfection would be helpful for me. She’s not going to be perfect, but perhaps it could be an inside joke between me and that dog. For me, “improved” would evoke – with the issue dog – the soft bigotry of low expectations.
What in the world is a leash correction supposed to do with a fearful dog who is responding to a recall from her owner? The things people do to dogs. The things people who charge money do to dogs.
Jessie says
I know I am very late posting a comment here, but I have a dog who is dog-aggressive and we’ve done both modification and management. I don’t want to write a novel, but here are the high points:
-Jessie came to me at 6 mos(we think), and appropriately interested in other dogs then. She had lived in a foster home with several without issue. Unfortunately, she had sarcoptic mange, and had to be isolated for the next two months during treatment.
-I started taking her to the park each night to meet lots of people and children as soon as she was allowed and to the dog park a few times a week. At the dog park, she would just sit by the gate to be let out. She was miserable.
-If she met one dog at a time, she was usually OK, but odd. She’d rush to meet the people, ignore their dog and then be astonished their dog was sniffing her butt! She’d bark at them then and sometimes growl. Off leash, she’d act fairly normal, but if a new dog entered the space, she’d get between the dog she knew and the new dog and was uneasy.
-Eventually at 18 mos, while boarded, she attacked another dog, badly. Thousands of dollars of surgery for the poor Maltese. Person intervening got two broken fingers. Of course my dog didn’t have a scratch on her.
-Behaviorists, trainers-nothing helped.
-She’s now reliable on leash–a strong leave it command has made things very manageable. Doesn’t even look at other dogs.
-But she is not to be trusted off leash. At all. She stiffens slightly and then grabs hold of the other dog’s neck. Won’t let go.
She’s 7 now, by the way.
Strangely, she is most reactive off-leash if a person she knows is present. If no human she knows is around, she will avoid and run from other dogs. If someone she knows (human) is present, she doesn’t tolerate their giving any attention to another dog or another dog approaching her human except in a controlled on leash situation. So I wonder if there is some sort of resource-guarding tied up in this. ( She doesn’t guard anything but people–food, toys, beds, the house–just people!)
I know you can’t be diagnosing dogs over the internet, but I’ve long wondered if she missed some critical development period when she had to be isolated. And why she is so intolerant in the presence of a person she knows. Maturity is certainly not an unusual time to see aggression flourish, so it could just be that as a pit mix she is just not reliable with other dogs (I know some pits just aren’t).
Anyway, modification and management in the terms of good leash management and not allowing her off-leash, ever, if she could possibly encounter another dog has worked for us, But I’d love to know what is going on in her head.
Any thoughts?
Marianne Z. says
Not sure if anyone is replying to this issue anymore. But I’ll give you the nutshell version in case I’m wasting my time.
Just adopted a shelter pup–she’s 8 mos old now and spayed–to add to my family of myself and another shelter dog. They are a match made in heaven. I got her to keep him company and run around in the yard, which is fenced in for his size, not hers. She’s small enough to fit through the bottom squares of fencing and has run away during playtime four times. Each time she would not come back and was running down the road to a property that had horses. Of course I was panicked because that was also the direction of the highway. Neither of my dogs have good recall unless I yell and I know that’s wrong. I haven’t trained them well enough. But the bigger/older (18 months) dog is much easier than the new little girl. She has a strong prey drive and with all the deer and rabbits around, until I get additional fencing for her size, she goes nuts when she sees the deer on a leash with me. She’s already pulled me off our deck, which gave me a bad case of bruised ribs and a few hundred bucks in doctor bills. She is a lovely pup but her pulling is clearly detrimental to both she and I. She’s part husky (I think) and golden retriever and stalks, sits abruptly and watches things outside. How can I use her instincts for positive behaviors while keeping her safe and instilling good recall? Until we have this fixed, she stays on-leash outdoors at all times with me. The other dog walks with us without a leash, no problems (except half-arss recall). I hope someone has some solutions. No choke collars here either or prongs. it’s a no-can-do. Thanks.