I’ll start with the bottom line. I don’t use the word “dominance” when talking to people about training their dogs. There’s just no profit in it. Even given that dominance is about “priority access” and “social freedom,” but not about how to get it, I still see nothing but the potential for confusion and misuse. Given that in general parlance dominance means “total control,” and that it is so often it is equated with force (completely inappropriately), I avoid the term as if it were toxic. Which is exactly what I think it can be in this context.
Look at all the absurd uses of the concept sent in by readers. “Expressions of dominance” include: A dog sitting with its back to you, forging in front on walks, jumping up on people, pulling washing off of a clothes line (one of my personal favorites), acting scared when someone approaches, a “refusal to be potty trained,” (did the dog hire a lawyer?), using signs of fear or appeasement to manipulate their owners (no kidding), and another personal favorite–dogs who are good retrievers as youngsters should be avoided because they are acting as alphas by provisioning the pack (bringing back a chicken in this case) and are thus predisposed to be dominant. Oh my. Oh my my my.
Thank you all so much for adding fuel to my fire that we need to drop the concept of dominance in relation to dog training. However, if we put aside the issue of training, and take an intellectual look at the issue of social relationships in depth, the waters can get a bit muddy. Independent of issues related to training, the questions still remain: How DO dogs perceive us? Is there any possible relevance to social hierarchy in our relationship with dogs? One reader responded to an earlier post that if dominance is about priority access to resources, we need to acknowledge that most of us inherently have that. We control the doorway, the food, the toys, when dogs potty, etc etc.
There are good arguments on either side of this question. On the one hand, social hierarchies are always between individuals of the same species, so how could they relate to relationships between people and dogs? On the other hand, why do dogs use the same social signals to people that they do to other dogs if they don’t see us as part of their social units? Why do some dogs grovel with appeasement displays, and others go stiff and hard-eyed when we go to pick up their bone? How do we describe those dogs? Because I think the issue is so complicated and so easily misunderstood, I tend to use terms that avoid the D word. I might describe a dog as being “on offense” if it goes stiff and presents what is called an “offensive pucker.” I’ll talk about a dog with an appeasement display that includes flattened ears and a retracted commissure or “submissive grin” as it is often called. (I realize, as I am writing this, that I am still more likely to describe a dog’s posture as ‘submissive,’ perhaps because I find it so descriptive and because I don’t see people abusing that term like they do “dominant.”)
Personally, I do suspect that there are some aspects of social hierarchy that relate to our relationship with our dogs. However, I also think it is exceptionally complicated and easily misunderstood. I think we have a lot to learn about how dogs perceive us, and how they categorize us in relation to other dogs. We clearly are not dogs to them, but then… we clearly are members of their ‘pack.’ I have no definitive answers to this question, but I love pondering the question. It’s a little like thinking about how many stars there are in the sky….
Soon I am going to write about another aspect of our relationship with dogs that I think is important, and that’s the concept of “leadership.” I know that some of you will disagree, but I truly believe that because dogs are so completely dependent upon us, they are happier and more secure if their humans exemplify the best of what we think of as being a good leader. You know: the person everyone wants to stand beside, and automatically wants to be chair of the committee even though he or she never volunteers for it. I talk about being a “benevolent leader” in some of my writings, although I deeply regret that even the term “leader” has been co-opted by some to be equated with “dominance.” I don’t think it is, any more than good parents or good teachers are ‘dominant.” Stay tuned for more …. but I gotta go now and get more milk for the bottle lambs.
Meanwhile, back on the farm, and speaking of bottle lambs, it is still all about the lambs at the farm. Explodo ewe is still holding out, and Truffles bag is still full and hard and giving almost no milk. Her triplets are bottle junkies now, and feeding them 5 times a day is getting a bit tiresome. I’m leaving now to go get more milk and set up a self feeder, which will help tremendously. I was hoping my Chinese medicine vet could come out, because western medicine has not been successful in clearing up Truffles’ udder, but my vet is booked solid for the next 10 days. Still have my paws crossed though, optimistic that I am. Truffles triplets are flourishing, at least the 2 Bl & Wh ones are. The little white ewe lamb is a fussy eater, and isn’t getting as much milk as the others, but she’s hanging in there. I tried to get a picture for you, but I can’t get them far enough away from me to get much beyond this:
Apologies, I seem stuck on pictures of lambs and spring flowers: Here’s another spring ephemeral, called Pasque Flowers, from Walking Iron County Park outside of Mazomanie. A gorgeous set of prairies and native wild flowers….
Laurel says
I think that if we could get rid of the nasty connotations around dominance – that it’s about imposing your own will at all costs; that it must be expressed in all interactions – it might be easier to accept that social hierarchy exists and matters for inter-specific relationships. Dogs form social relationships with humans. They prefer to be around their own, familiar humans rather than strange humans; they solicit attention and affection as well as food; they use dog social cues to communicate (often reasonably effectively) with humans. They certainly don’t think we’re dogs, but we do have thousands of years of co-evolutionary history in which it seems very reasonable that dogs who could communicate with people and people who could communicate with dogs would have a survival advantage.
For dogs to live in the human world comfortably, I think you’re right that they need to accept human leadership. I also think there’s an element of social hierarchy contained within the idea of leadership. Even the examples of parents and teachers reinforce this: parents and teachers need to have some level of dominance over kids and students (in the narrow sense of priority access to preferred, limited resources, like decision-making/control). That doesn’t mean kids and students never get their way, or that parents and teachers can expect to tell kids/students what to do without training; but it does mean that when there’s a difference of opinion about what should happen next and compromise is impossible, the parent or teacher gets to make the decision. Good teachers work really, really hard to stay in that position (and it’s one of the hardest things to do as a teacher); I think parents often do too. You can’t maintain that dominance if you fight about every little thing and never let a kid or student have some control, or if you ignore the needs of the kid/student; but ultimately, those relationships are one in which someone has to have the last word. When you have different and incompatible preferences, the parent/teacher has to be able to make and enforce a decision.
I think that’s what makes the transition from adolescence to adulthood so difficult for many people, myself included. Parents are in the process of gradually giving up their social dominance, and creating a relationship where neither person is clearly the leader – more like an egalitarian friendship. My relationship with my parents got a lot easier when we weren’t struggling for control over my life. Not that they were bad parents who tried to control me too much – they just wanted me to do reasonable things like come home by curfew and do my homework. It was easier for both of us once I got old enough that they didn’t feel like they had to enforce those rules, and it was my problem if I stayed out too late and was exhausted at class the next morning, or didn’t do my homework on time and had to stay up all night finishing it. I don’t think that transition would be as painful if it didn’t involve a change in social status and dominance roles.
People do abuse the idea of dominance, both in human-human relationships and in human-dog relationships. I generally think that human leaders have too much of a tendency to say “I’m in charge, so what I say goes” – i.e., because of my nominal position, you shouldn’t question the content of what I decide. That’s not useful for leading humans, because it makes them feel ignored and disrespected. Real leadership, and people’s trust in particular leadership, has to be earned by a consistent pattern of good decisions that lead to outcomes that work both for the leader and for the people being led. Actually, dog training is kind of like that too – you have to earn the dog’s trust that if you’ve asked for that behavior, doing that behavior will lead to a good outcome, like affection or a food treat.
And, of course, in all kinds of status relationships, the person who’s lower in the social hierarchy totally has the ability to get things from the person higher up, whether via exchange or begging or outright defiance in the hopes that the parent/teacher/trainer just doesn’t care all that much (or, in the case of humans, rational persuasion). That doesn’t mean social status, status displays, and status-related mechanisms for resolving resource conflicts don’t exist, or aren’t relevant to inter-specific interactions.
Alexandra says
I love spring ephemerals (they are one of the things that makes spring so magical), and the lambs are adorable – thanks for sharing! No apologies necessary.
I liked your comments today about the D word and relationships between us an our dogs. From my observations of my dogs, it seems to me that you are right that dogs are happier with someone to act as a benevolent leader. My rescue, Izzy, especially, gets extremely anxious if there are other dogs around that aren’t really “lead” by their people but are kind of running their own show. She is pretty much guaranteed to be reactive to those types of dogs.
My husband has a story that when he was a kid he was complaining to his father that some decision was unfair because this was a democratic country where we have freedom of choice. To which his father replied, “In this house you live in a benevolent dictatorship.” Funny story, yes, but I actually think it is a very good way to put it for parents of young children and owners of animals.
Laurie says
The lambs are adorable!
Sometimes I have a hard time finding words other than dominance that mean something to people. Of course my conversations with people often lean more towards trying to convince them to hold onto a stray dog long enough for me to find somewhere for it to go instead of shooting it… so its a little bit different than an educated conversation about dog behavior most of the time. But right now I do have a foster dog that I tell people is dominant or strong-willed. He’s the most challenging dog I’ve ever fostered. The fact is some dogs are more determined or strong-willed than others – and that’s the terminology I usually hear associated with dominance. It’s easier to try and explain to people that a dog going through a doorway before you is not being dominant, than it is to eliminate the word completely when those are the terms that most people I talk to already use. Of course I have a lot more learning to do (and I thank you and others who leave comments for sharing so much helpful information!) but sometimes I just don’t know what else to call it that makes sense to people.
Dyan says
There can never be too many lamb pictures!
Keli says
I would love to hear more about the leadership stuff. I read another blog by Susan Garrett (famous agility instructor from Canada) and she just had some info on reinforcment, positive training etc and she said “I would like to contribute to a world where dog training is facilitated with mutual respect and the trainer acts as a motivating, benevolent
Susan says
Dominance is such an emotionally charged word, that I much prefer to avoid it. I don’t think its possible to be a good dog trainer or handler without an element of leadership, but it certainly doesn’t require being heavy handed. I like the analogy to parenthood, and one of the parenting books (Parenting with Love and Logic) I read (and no, I don’t have kids!) talked about different types of parents: laissez faire, where there is little guidance or help; controlling/dominating (I forget the terminology they used) where the parents make all the choices; helicopter parents, always coming in to “save” the kids from bad choices they made- and Love and Logic parents, where kids are given appopriate choice options for their developmental level, and then gradually are given more choices/options as they demonstrate their ability to make appropriate choices. I think this is very useful for parenting dogs- giving them very limited choices as pups, as we teach them more allowing them to make more choices (have more freedoms) but what often ends up happening is that the human parent gives too much freedom too soon, so the puppy makes a bad choice, which is then seen as the puppy trying to be dominant, and then having to “squelch” the puppy, punish it, whatever.
I also think there is a dearth of information in t he public domain about dog’s natures and needs. So much of what is seen as “dominant” is often merely normal dog behavior or a dog trying to meet its needs for exercise, food, etc. I love your books, and recommend them frequently, and just wish the general dog owning public would read them before they ever got a dog!
Wild Dingo says
Oh my gosh, I was laughing out loud when I read the behaviors associated with “dominance.” If that’s the case, every puppy in the world is “dominant.” It’s as if we’ve taken the animal out of the dog and are fully expecting them to behave like humans. As a society, we’ve humanized dogs so much and have created their own behavioral problems that they have today BECAUSE dogs are confused about leadership. We dress them, allow them on furniture (ok I realize this is a choice, but honestly, 80 years ago, most dogs were kept outside in a barn or dog house and I don’t think we had half the behavioral problems we see in the media today), we talk to them as if they understand English, we take them EVERYWHERE (including any store that tolerates a person who walks in with their non-service dog and is not necessarily a ‘dog open’ store), we have doggie day care (because we don’t have time to take care of them), and do at least 50 more things for them that we would do for a human child.
I couldn’t agree more with the difference between dominance and leadership. I think dogs are so happy to relinquish the role as a leader. I feel many of their inappropriate behaviors are because of a question in leadership (barking at other dogs on leash, barking non-stop at the door, most aggressive behavior, etc.) I feel that if there is any question in their mind about leadership, they will take the leadership and out comes an undesired behavior.
My own dogs have taught me this. It’s so easy for one of my dogs to defer to me now and question what his behavior should be. sure, sometimes i still get him barking at the dog who tries to fence fight us on our walk, but overall, his ability to defer to me has been amazing and a huge change since the 2 years ago when i adopted him. he’s much more relaxed and confident. Providing rules and boundaries for them is exactly what they want. Without them, there’s no security, there’s no way of knowing if their basic needs will met (will that dog attack me? no, because my mom is here to protect me so i do not need to bark at him.)
Leadership and dominance (though i don’t use the term in training or to describe my dogs) are independent of each other. As it is, “dominance” (as defined above) among my 2 dogs changes and fluctuates anyway. But leadership does not necessarily involve dominance (though i suspect it could depending upon the leader).
I always think dogs have it harder than us owners/handler. I mean, we choose THEM, right? they don’t choose us. (or rarely they may like the puppy in the pound who suddenly comes to life when he sees you.) but in the end, we choose them and then we “enforce our will on them” and expect them to behave because we said so. “Sit because i said so.” I feel like this is such an odd thing to do to a dog who come to us on a 1 way relationship. Our relationship with dogs may become friendships, but it never starts out like human friendships because in human friendships, two parties make the choice. I feel like it’s up to us to convince them that being with us is fun and safe rather than forcing them to do this or that. I’ve had so much fun when I take this approach. And leadership becomes so much less of a drain on me.
And for the record: the lamb pictures never stop entertaining me!
Pike says
I don’t get it. The word “dominance” has been used in combination with dog hierarchies and training for many decades – now this is the third thread here ridiculing people who have problems with their dogs and who might – or might have not – uttered that word and equaling them with being dog abusers. Dog abusers who supposedly have one thing in common: adhering to some overpowering, abusive and very vague dominance concept.
If this is about Cesar Milan’s style – why not say so and criticize that rather specific training regimen. If this is about your own superiority and having a good laugh at everybody who has problems with their dogs and doesn’t know the appropriate words, well then I am more than disappointed.
Pamela says
Another excellent post on a fascinating topic. And lots of great comments!
People like to categorize things neatly and get clean explanations. It’s easier to say my dog is being dominant and apply a series of “fixes” than to critique the relationship and learn how to improve it.
I really appreciated Wild Dingo’s comments about how we choose the dog and impose our choice on her. And the statement that “it
Pike says
…
I wasn’t done, but got interrupted by my neighbor’s dogs coming over for some play time and must have sent my first part prematurely.
Anyhow, talking about how dogs/dogs and dogs/people interact is so very intriguing to me and I would love to see this discussion going back to the way that makes this forum usually so much fun: A way of relating one’s own experiences, anecdotes and questions while being respectful of others.
Dominance is just one word and these threads have shown that about everyone here has their own definition. Actually, more like two definitions: One for it for themselves and then another one that applies to those “others” who are abusive and somehow fall under a dominance concept = ignorant = total control freak = abusive.
It is my hope that we will focus more on our own words. Describing as good as we can our relationships with our dogs and worry less about THE meaning of any word for others and more about understanding the relationship better. At least that’s why I am here.
Trisha says
To Pike, and all: Oh dear. I knew that this was a loaded issue, but I never thought my words would be taken to “. . . have a good laugh at everybody who has problems with their dogs…”. That would be the last thing I would ever want to do. I like people as much as I like dogs, and although I am no saint, I would never use this forum to belittle anyone. Nor would I ever equate everyone who uses the term dominance to be a dog abuser. I did think the examples I related from reader’s comments were good examples of the misuse of the term, but that’s a far cry from accusing someone of abusing dogs. And if anyone ever takes my words as being “about my own superiority…”, well, sit down with me sometime for tea and I’ll use up the entire afternoon telling you about all the things I do wrong. I’m a really good dog trainer, but I’m not a brilliant one, and sometimes I think that’s an advantage in being a teacher. I know what it feels like to be confused, to mess up and to look back with regret at things I’ve done in the past. Ah, but then, perhaps I’m just trying to find a silver lining in not being as brilliant as I’d like to be?
Speaking of the past, remember some of my first words about this topic? To keep this discussion “thoughtful and considerate?” I have tried to do that, and will continue to do so, as best I can. The truth is, there are plenty of people on the other side of Pike who have castigated me for even discussing the term dominance, or using the term ‘social status’ or, god forbid, ‘leadership.’ And, of course, there’s the other perspective that feels strongly that you simply can’t talk about dogs and training without talking about dominance. That’s the trouble with standing somewhere in the middle ground, you get hit by arrows from both sides.
That said, I know this topic brings out a lot of emotion, but I do continue to believe that there is value in trying to discuss it respectfully and thoughtfully.
Carrie says
Now you have me pondering:
“We clearly are not dogs to them, but then
Liz F. says
I don
Deanna in OR says
Someone on a dog list I participate in is having problems with one of her dogs suddenly becoming aggressive with the other, much older dogs in her house (initiating fights after living with them for 4 years). The older dogs are another female and a male.
She’s had some medical tests done with no explanatory results.
Now she is observing the problem dog’s behavior and noticing that when the older female is laying down, the younger dog (also female)will go and stand over the older one , which was described as “an obvious dominant stance”. So now the owner plans to do “dominance exercises” with the younger dog to “dethrone” her. ( “in quotes ” are the poster’s words).
I’m not sure what her plans are with the “dominance exercises”, but this is where the use of the D-word can be counterproductive. If these “exercises” include alpha-rolls or other human-aggressive tactics, it doesn’t seem like it will really help the situation.
And as Liz F. said, these kinds of things were advocated by many trainers and writers long before Mr. Milan became a celebrity. I remember reading about it in the Monks of New Skeet’s puppy book, and many other places.
And while understanding (or trying to!) what is going on in the dog’s head is interesting and may be useful, as well as further investigation into medical/physical issues, it also seems like management and training could address it–keeping the dogs apart, and counter conditioning/desensitization.
But on the “why” of this kind of situation–is it possible that the younger dog really is seeing these much older dogs (13 and 16 years) as failing, and now she wants to move into a pack-leader position? Or kill off the old ones? Then would it really be a “dominance” thing? And how would one deal EFFECTIVELY to keep peace in the house?
Deanna in OR
Em says
I think it’s important to have these discussions of ‘dominance’. Mostly because I work with dogs and my own female is often accused of being ‘dominant’ so rather than gritting my teeth and pretending to smile and nod I am always looking for kind ways to explain why ‘dominant’ may not be the best term to use or be the best way to describe all behaviours.
I think education/teaching is important. I don’t pretend to know everything or act superiour but when the term is misused I do try to start a discussion about it…even if the other person goes around using the term in inappropriate ways and applying it to some of the absurd things you pointed out (which makes me want to poke out my eyes..retrieving as dominant behaviour is the worst..) I try to stay calm and explain that dominance (and dogs) are complicated and it is not as simple as applying a label.A lot of people just don’t know as well..it’s difficult when much of the “grab your attention” stuff on t.v. uses the terms in such a particular way.
Anyone have a good (or witty!) alternative for dogs being ‘accused’ of being dominant? Ex: My dog isn’t dominant she’s just…..
Kat says
I’ve been following this discussion with great interest. As I try to figure out what I think we are to our dogs I keep coming back to the fact that dogs are wolves that have evolved to live successfully with humans. To me we are the other species partners of dogs. Early humans hunted more successfully with the help of dogs, dogs ate better and were more successful as a species because they helped humans hunt. What we should be to our dogs is partners. I think of it as being a partnership like riding a tandem bike or dancing. One partner gets to steer/lead but would be a pretty poor partner if they never took into account the wishes/needs/desires of the other partner. We live in a human society so Ranger follows my lead. If we lived in a canine society I’d expect to follow his lead.
I listen to my grandmother’s stories about the dogs of her life (she’s nearly 97) and I’m struck by how much of a partnership there was between the humans and the canines. The dogs had a clearly defined set of responsibilities.
Menopausal Entrepreneur says
I don’t believe that anyone here is accusing people who use the word “dominant” of being abusers, just simply misunderstanding the concept. Because we live in an age of information overload, people are reading up on dog training. As we know, there’s a lot of choose from – great books like Trisha’s and some not-so-great books, as well as plenty of web sites chockful of information. The more that is understood about dog behavior, the more we need to share this beneficial information with others and point them to the best of the best!
By the way, not to fuel the fire but I have to share this: I saw a dog surrendered to a shelter today because it likes to “aggressively destroy stuffed toys” and the owners believed that the dog was showing dominance and will eventually become aggressive. Oh my my my – is right!!
Angel says
Why is it important to discuss dominance, the word’s meaning, and how it applies or doesn’t apply to dog-dog interactions and dog-people interactions? For me, it matters so I am educated enough to express an intelligent, well informed opinion when people tell me things like this:
‘My mom’s male dog is ignorant. When her older female, who still has heat cycles, is in heat, he goes up to her while she’s laying down and pees on her. I told my brother to wait for a nice day, put the male in the kennel, and pee on him. That will show him he is not the dominant one. He can invite a bunch of the guys over, have some beers, and they can pee on the dog! Ha ha ha ha!!’
Seriously. In the name of gaining dominace over a dog, she advised multiple people urinating on him. Drunk people. That scenario playing out in my head does not end well. For anyone involved. I envision a urine-soaked, terrified dog, who is possibly now afraid of men and may become aggressive due to this. And for my own pleasure, I envision a few drunken idiots on the way to the emergency room, with severe dog bites to their genitals.
I don’t pretend to know exactly what to tell this girl to do to stop the male from peeing on the female. I would suggest a vet visit, possibly spaying and neutering them both, if the male isn’t neutered. But, because of this blog and the valuable information here, I can explain to her that this is not a dominance issue. And even if it were, human males peeing on the dog in the backyard, in a drunken display of stupidity (okay, I’d leave that part out when speaking to her 🙂 ) is NOT going to solve the problem and will likely cause MORE problems.
I had a dog growing up – well, my step-mom had a dog. To me, he was more like a pain in the butt little brother that I had to feed and walk every day, for no reward. So really, Bear is my first dog, and I’ve had him a little over a year. I have learned A LOT in the past year. But the people who comment here, some know a lot more than me. And Trisha definitley knows a lot more than me. They have all worked with dogs for years and years, some are trainers or work in shelters or have degrees. They just have more experience and knowledge. BUT I have NEVER felt stupid here, not as I read posts or comments and not as I post comments or questions. No one has ever acted superior or ridiculed me or laughed at me. In fact, I have often thought, “Wow. They think that, too.” Or “Wow! They have the same problems or questions I have!!”
Whew. I feel better now. The “defender” in me just had to speak up. Now I am off to the dog park on this 80-something degree day!! Yeah!!
Laurel says
I used the words ‘dominance’ and ‘abuse’ in the same sentence, but I think it’s pretty clear from the context that I didn’t mean that “talking about dominance” = “abuser.” Just want to make sure it’s extra super clear that I was saying that sometimes some people misunderstand what dominance means, or how to actually take on a pack leader role.
kate says
I’ve really enjoyed this series of discussions surrounding the d-bomb (said with a smile).
For me, everything made sense when I read your “Feeling outnumbered” book. Having a multiple dog household, I remember that it was head spinning trying to figure out what motivated who to do what in return.
After reading your book… they were either patient and polite or the opposite.
All “MY” efforts went to promoting and rewarding the benefits of being patient and polite and everything fell into place.
Most of “THEIR” efforts I found went into finding ways to be patient and polite.
If not, they were left out and given a chance to try again (with me managing their environment to increase the odds of them succeeding, back and forth to the drawing board, thinking of way of reframing the picture for them).
While I think it’s very interesting reading, I think there’s always a danger when you label sentient beings in a not so flattering way, no matter what term is used.
I think we’re all made up of a little bit of everything. It’s just up to use to choose or provide an environment where we bring out the best in eachother. Sometimes it may be unsettling, stirring up emotions, but I think that everyone has done a really great job of providing food for thought.
cheers,
kate
Jessie says
I think I may have been a bit too polarizing in my first attempt at a response. 😉
But one of my big concerns about so-called ‘dominance’ training is that it assumes an inherently adversarial relationship between dog and owner.(If this were true, why would we want a dog?!) There is a winner and a loser in every interaction between dog and owner. Not only do I disagree with this concept, I question how any problem solving is possible in the dog or the owner if these are your ground rules.
When all you have is a hammer, all the world’s a nail…
Amy says
When we brought our 1st Aussie home, she was an out-of-control puppy. My husband, a psychiatrist, often joked that she needed a mood stabilizer. I turned to books instead of meds.
Trish’s books gave me the courage to turn away from dominance and aggression to control my pup. Instead, the premise of the “benevolent leader” guided my training. I am so pleased with the results! Aussie puppy #2 also gets this treatment, which is so much more fun than leash popping, alpha rolls, and squirt bottles.
Matthew says
Pike,
As someone who is a first time dog owner and was “lucky” enough to start off with a “problem dog” (leash re activeness towards other dogs/humans, and some mild separation anxiety), being laughed at is probably one of the last things I would attribute to Patricia’s discussion on this or other issues.
In fact it is because of her frank discussions and willingness to take some heat and explore the “issues” surrounding Dominance and discussing/explaining the miss use of the word in terms of dog training that I was able to save my dog from some bad trainer advice and not use some pretty horrific training methods.
I think it is important we explore this topic, because the term Dominance is being misused and misapplied as a catch all for unwanted dog behavior. I have experienced this first hand. I was told my dog didn’t respect me as “alpha”, which is why he acted up when he saw another dog out on walks. to solve this I just had to be assertive as the pack leader. To speed up the process, I could use a prong collar to apply a correction to my dog when he as acting up.
Thank God I had learned enough to understand something wasn’t right with this explanation, and I did not follow this advice.
Catherine says
The question of how dogs perceive humans’ social status and pack/team role is fascinating. I.e. just because dogs have social hierarchies, do they even consider humans as being part of those hierarchies? A light bulb went off for me when I read the part of The Other End of the Leash (the book) that raised this question, since so much popular training advice presupposes that they do. However, I don’t think it’s necessarily a clear yes or no. Since dogs and humans have a long history of living together and cooperating, and are both intelligent, social species, it seems quite reasonable to me to assume that dogs are in a similar situation of deciphering our behavior and adapting to our norms in order to thrive in our cross-cultural relationships. They clearly don’t think we’re dogs, but as they relate to us and try to understand us, they probably do so in terms of their own social concepts (would this be caninomorphism?).
This may factor into how and why they defer or submit to our decision-making or try to assert their own free will, particularly during adolescence. I’m not trying to discount the value of teaching dogs through positive reinforcement that doing what we ask is good for them – the “trade” model as opposed to the “submit” model, I’m just suggesting that it may not be a strict either/or. In fact, it seems that early training relies more on the trade model, and then as immediate rewards are phased out, the dog’s compliance is based more on a form of trust in the leader, i.e. deferring to the leader’s request because in the past, doing so has produced good (but perhaps not immediate) results for both parties, as Laurel describes. In this case, there are elements of trade and deference (you could call it submission).
Don’t we do the same thing when we try to reinforce certain human notions of what is “fair” or “polite” – like whether a dog should take away another dog’s toy? Not that this is necessarily bad – teaching dogs some of our cultural norms helps them get along and earn more freedoms in human society, like going into stores and hospitals. I just can’t help thinking that even though we humans use wonderful tools like science and research and blogs 😉 to try to understand the other species, we’re still observing through with human eyes.
Thanks to Trisha and all of you for all the time, thought, and detail given to this complex topic -the debate is healthy and really valuable. Laurel, I think your child-parent analogy makes a lot of sense in terms of the potential to shift and develop the relationship in a healthy way. Thanks for the book title!
Kerry L. says
I’ve found Trisha’s books to be so helpful because of her thoughtful and humble writing style and her willingness to ‘fess up her own questions and faux paws. The discussion of dominance has been important me because I’ve had the experience of others using the term when referring to Walter and I became concerned that I was blind to his ‘issues’. I now realize that most of these ‘others’ are regular folks coming to the dog park who have no other word to describe his confident appearance, his desire to be boss of the park (he barks but there’s no bite, ever), his rough and tumble play-style and his expectation of manners from other dogs. I monitor his behavior at the park and talk to the other folks and use terms other than the ‘D’ word. I set limits on his behavior and expect manners and cooperation. I work hard at balancing his needs with mine, trying to keep in mind he is a living being who I’ve been given the responsibility to care and provide for. I really should have named him Earnest because he tries so hard to do the right thing. I agree with Carrie’s comments about finding comfort in knowing what to expect and what is expected of us, in routines and schedules. I strive to create a cooperative, rather than combative, relationship between us. I hope this made sense.
Pike says
Trisha and others responding to my
Ann says
I couldn’t find my last post on this subject regarding status seeking or “D” behavior as possibly just rough play in young dogs who’s motive I suspect is just to provoke some type of war game.
Temple Grandon’s books talk about dog’s sensory systems, and behavior being similar to humans who are in the Autism Spectrum. Having a son with Aspergers I notice a great need, on his part, to control the environment around him. It is very dominent behavior to the point of almost aggression. The need to control does not stem from resource guarding, status seeking, or being the top dog to eat first and have access to the best female. It does involve a total inability to read, or care about social signals others display. Just food for thought. Are there dogs that just are not able to cope because of genetic neuro problems similar to autism?
Amy H says
I appreciate reading all your posts on the D word. I have treated every dog I have had the honor of being part of my life with patience, understanding, what I considered to be responsible leadership, a structured set of rules (what is acceptable and what is not), a whole lot of my time, and of course love. They have all had different personalities and they all were dear companions. People would remark at how “good” my dog was, but I think it came down to our mutual respect and the fact that I never “roughed up” or tried to “dominate” the dog. They certainly wanted to please me, and my old lab would even stop in his tracks from chasing a deer or rabbit if I asked him to.
A few months ago I adopted a rescue puppy who is super smart, sweet, and fast becoming a great companion. He learned house training in one day (I am not making this up – just one day of my taking him out every two hours and rewarding him when he went in the yard). When I visited some friends in March at their home for a few days the man in the household (a big guy who has had a lot of dogs) grabbed my pup and “dominated” him (dog whisperer style – held him down until he screamed and ran away). The pup became agitated, scared, skittish, and had a terrible stay at their house. It took almost a week after returning home for him to regain his trust even in me. The man’s wife commented that many dogs are scared of him because he shows them “who is alpha” in that manner.
The pup is fine now, but I will not take him there for a visit again and I find it sad that people interpret popular ideas in that way. I have never needed to do any more than simply show the dog (repeatedly if necessary) what I want them to do and reward them (with play, treats, or just a “good dog”) when they get it right.
Finally, the best thing I have found, for every dog I have had, is going out for walks twice a day – yup – rain or shine, summer or winter, we walk in the AM and PM and everyone is happy.
Jen says
If you’re still having trouble with Truffle’s udder – check out the dairygoatinfo.com –
I’ve found it to be a great source of info on small ruminant health in general and udder health in particular. It is a discussion-style forum and searchable database.
Lee Charles Kelley says
For anyone interested in what it really means to be a “pack leader,” check out my article on how spatial dynamics change a dog’s emotional state: “The spatial relationship between two dogs or wolves takes place on the horizontal. Their eyes face each other. They’re on the same level. But the spatial relationship between dog and human is quite different. We move through space on the vertical. Our eyes are far above theirs. They look up at us, we look down at them. Spatial relationships — which are concrete and visceral — are far more important to dogs than intangibles like leadership or status.”
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/my-puppy-my-self/200905/pack-leader-or-predator
LCK
crack the roulette says
thank you for posting this.
Alex Evans says
Interesting article! I noticed that many people are looking for different methods of training dogs and means of controlling their behavior. I recently came across an santi dog barking device , and I would be interested to know your opinion on it. Do you think that such devices can be useful in combination with the right approach to training?
Trisha says
Alex: Nope.