It’s Sunday of Labor Day Weekend and Maggie is exuberant. Her face is glowing. She’s leaping onto her hind feet and pirouetting in a half circle like a ballet dancer while looking into my eyes. If she’s not actually smiling, she’s doing a perfect imitation of a slap-happy human grin.
We’d just done our first run at the WWSDA Labor Day Trial in Hudson, WI, and it went well. Nowhere near perfect, but still a lovely run, and the only mistakes were handler errors on my part. We ending up placing seventh on that run, sixth on the next, and 5th in combined scores. The only higher scores were handlers who run in the advanced class (Open), which includes, if not the equivalent of tennis stars like Serena Williams, the ones she plays against in the US Open.
I was thrilled, in part because all the things we’ve been working on the last few months paid off. I won’t bore you with the details, but Maggie did everything I asked her to do. In addition, the sheep and course were so challenging that I almost scratched. Last year Maggie couldn’t handle the sheep, and let them run away from her, back to where they had started. I had to walk/run about 300 yards (or was it five miles?) up a steep hill in order to get her back. The “walk of shame” we call it. The only saving grace was that one handler noted I “ booked up the hill amazingly fast”. You have to take it where you can get it.
This year the sheep looked ever tougher. Only half of the first Open runs got any scores at all. The line between putting too much pressure on the sheep or too little was as fine as a razor’s edge. But I decided I’d at least give her a try, and if I had to leave the post then that’s what I’d do. With last year’s trouble fresh in my mind, I’d specifically trained her to take an extra flank (turn) around the sheep at the top of her outrun to prevent the sheep escaping back from whence they came. Darn if Maggie didn’t take that extra flank perfectly, took immediate charge of the sheep and kept it up the entire run.
So you can imagine that I felt gooey with pride in my little dog Maggie. (Thank for you indulging me by just reading about it.) But here’s the question that occurred to me last night when I emailed my friends that “I swear Maggie is just as proud and happy as I am.” Is it possible that Maggie was proud as well as just being happy, or was I simply falling into the worst of anthropomorphism? I’m sure we all agree that dogs can be happy in the moment; anyone who doesn’t agree with that might want to study some basic neurobiology. But pride in accomplishment? That’s an entirely different level of emotional complexity. That mammals can share “basic” emotions like fear, rage and disgust is widely accepted, but “secondary emotions” like jealousy, guilty and pride are far more controversial.
In keeping of the irony of the Labor Day holiday, I’m going to avoid doing much of it today (labor, that is) , and skip a lengthy discussion of secondary emotions in non-humans animals. For those who want to read more about it, I refer you to For the Love of a Dog: Understanding Emotions in You and Your Best Friend. But here I want to ask you about your own beliefs and experiences regarding pride in animals. Have you seen an example of a dog (or horse, cat, etc.) behaving in a way that suggests to you it was feeling pride? My own belief is that because Border Collies have an inherent predisposition to take control of the sheep, they are well aware if they manage it well or not. Experienced trial dogs surely know when things are going well. Or not. Does that mean they can feel pride if they do a good job?
There are, of course, other explanations for dogs behaving as if they are proud. Confidence can look like pride, but those are very different emotional states. Maggie’s exuberance was clearly an expression of joy, and probably in part a reflection of how happy I was. However, I know Maggie as well as I’ve ever known any dog, and I would bet the farm that much of her joy had less to do with me, but because she had such a good time doing what she loves. But proud?
To facilitate our discussion, we need to agree on the definition of pride. Here is the primary definition, offered by Merriam-Webster: “The quality or state of being proud: such as 1) inordinate self-esteem, as in conceit, 2) a reasonable or justifiable self-respect, and 3) delight or elation arising from some act, possession, or relationship (as in, parental pride). Let’s agree to talk about definition #3, or delight or elation arising from some act.
So, what do you think? I’d love to hear what you have to say.
Before signing off, I want to thank all the members of WWSDA for putting on such a great trial, along with the Kinney family who host us at Badlands Recreational area. It’s an astounding amount of work to put on a good four-day trial, and Jim and I were pleased to do the bit of volunteering that we could to help out. I was especially proud (there’s that word again) of how well this trial takes care of the sheep: They had a cool, shady area to rest in after their run, then were allowed to go back up the hill to graze before running again. One good example of that is shown in this photograph. See the sheep in the foreground? She’s chewing her cud, which sheep only do when they are reasonably relaxed and comfortable. Would the sheep rather have skipped the trial? No doubt, but they were well taken care of and that’s what shepherding should be all about.
Here is the whole flock let out to graze after the last run on Sunday. Surely there’s not a more beautiful trial site than this one. (Not to mention intimidating for handlers and dogs alike. The sheep are basically set out in the next county. At least that’s what it feels like.)
We only got to watch a few of the International sheds, in which all the uncollared sheep have to be split off from the 5 with collars. Not so easy to do when some of the sheep in each category are best buddies. Here’s what the whole group looks like while moving into the shedding ring, with Marianna Shreeder’s dog Nel doing the honors.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: It’s all about sheep out here right now, including getting the winter’s hay safely stacked in the barn. The new hay is on the left, last year’s on the right. We’ve had so much rain that there is pasture to spare still, but you never know about the months to come. Feels great to have a barn full of hay!
Octopusgallery says
My mastiff mix Greta could be generously called a “complicated dog” (at least compared to my current GSD who is much easier). She LOVED people (unless they were jogging, biking, pushing a stroller, or on a motorcycle, or holding lawn tools, or…I swear she was a great dog in the house). She hated many other dogs, but built up a small play group that she was willing to hangout with civilly, and occasionally play with. Most of the time she just wanted to cozy up to the people while the other dogs did things like chase balls and each other, with a lot of rough housing thrown in. One time we were standing around and the small pack ran off down the field after a long throw. They were about halfway away and she went tearing off after them. Now, this whole “playing with other dogs” thing was still really new after a lot of behavior work so I’m thinking “oh crap, she’s going to go after one of them.” so I start heading down the field myself. She gets to the scrum, t-bones the chocolate lab right in the side so as to almost knock him off his feet, then comes racing back to me with the biggest tongue lolling grin on her face like “Did you see that? I just smashed the bejeezus outta him! Playing is great!”
Frances says
Sophy was immensely proud of her first rabbit. It was the first one she caught and killed all by herself (and almost certainly far gone with mixy, so a happy release for the poor creature), and she carried it all the way back to the car. She is a papillon, so had to hold her head very high to keep a half grown rabbit off the ground which made her look even prouder, but it was in every step and ear flick. Until she got to the car and remembered she can’t jump in even when not burdened by a rabbit, when she graciously agreed to exchange it for a treat. The self belief lasted a lot longer – “I don’t have to listen to you, I can hunt for myself!”.
And as an aside, I was very proud of both of my dogs when I successfully called them off their first ever deer hunt recently. We were walking through fields and woodlands when a roe buck crossed the path just ahead. My sister and I were mesmerised and the dogs froze. Then a doe crossed. One paw went up. Then a half grown fawn sprang after its parents and the dogs were off! I called to them and they stopped after just a few yards – cue lavish praise.
Bruce says
Trisha, I need to watch a sheep dog trial some day. Your pictures make it look glorious.
My first dog loved to hunt jumping insects in the basement – crickets, katydids, etc. She turned the “great hunt” into an elaborate, drawn-out game. When it was over, she strutted around as if she had just taken down a wildebeest. Despite our mocking praise, to all outward appearances she appeared to be quite proud of herself.
Spent half a day with Red Dog playing Frisbee golf through woods and across fields. Four hours into the hike we met a 1-year old Golden Retriever. “Does your dog like other dogs?” “Oh, yeah.” Drop leashes, dogs fire off play-bows at near-record pace and then run and play beautifully. As HFR said in a previous thread, the joy of watching dogs play is an excellent litmus test for dog lovers.
When we returned home, Red Dog curled up on the couch and didn’t move for the next several hours. My wife asked if I “broke the dog.” 😀
Rosemary Teetor says
I’m convinced my Sheltie felt pride about his perfect score at the Therapy Dog exam several years ago. He had certainly earned it! Purebred though he was, he had no use for sheep, but he did obedience beautifully. And he strutted! I think he knew how well he had done! The breeder made a point of telling me he shouldn’t prance. I couldn’t being myself to correct him!
Congratulations to you nd to Maggie! Well done!
Margaret says
Wonderful to know how well Maggie did. I think dogs can feel pride. I always remember walking my rescue dog Dills. He’d had a really tough life, been abandoned at least once before, and was then dumped by my former neighbour. Purely by accident I ended up adopting him. I always remember the day that was a real turning point in our relationship. I’d tried training him to come when he was called, and had no luck (poor little guy had had very little decent interaction with people).
Luckily my other dog, Alfie, was well trained, so Dills was used to seeing Alfie being recalled and getting lots of cuddles for coming back. So, on this particular day, I called Dills, and much to my surprise, he came running. Huge cuddles, big fuss.
Rest of the walk (especially when there were other people around), he would suddenly stop and look at me “Go on, do it, call my name”, which of course I would do. He would then proudly race back looking absolutely thrilled to be a member of his pack. I love seeing dogs and owners out together who are clearly so proud to be part of each other’s lives. Happy Labor Day!
LisaW says
Congratulations on seeing, feeling, and knowing that you and Maggie are becoming such a good team. That to me would be the most satisfying and pride-filled. When we can actually feel and taste the bond that comes from working together with joy and determination. Nothing else like it.
Olive, who has had such a complicated physical and mental time of it in her young life, did display what was obvious pride. Our vet comes to the house to do their annual exam, and each year there’s been a concern over this or a tweak to that or watch out for . . . This year, Olive came out of the house with a ball in her mouth and proceeded to pony-prance around the yard. She did pivots and high-steps and turns as if she were a Lipizzane in disguise. She knew she felt good, and apparently, also knew she looked good. Our vet was thrilled to see her in such fine form, and we all delighted in her performance. (Once Olive saw the stethoscope come out, the show was over but no follow-up needed:)
How do the dogs know to separate out the sheep with collars? While the collar is obvious, the need to separate would not be or is it?
Heather Luedecke says
When we condition dogs to understand when they are getting it right, I don’t see how they can’t fit the #3 definition. You can see it when a dog knows they got it right. I like to call it the lightbulb moment – where the dog does something and anticipates being reinforced because they did something right. For what it’s worth, I think dogs probably have a sense of embarrassment when something goes very wrong and they know it. I have seen it a few times with my dog – the most spectacular when he decided to take a series of 3 jumps on his own and got going to fast and biffed it on the third. He smashed right into it, got up and looked around as if to say ‘did anyone see that’ then slinked off to the gate, wanting to leave the park. I was worried he was hurt (he was not) – except maybe his pride! His body language reminded me of a little kid who attempts and fails at something – hunched shoulders, head down, looking at his own feet.
Victoria Stewart- Moore says
Thanks as always for your thoughts on your and Maggie’s experience at the latest sheep trial. I always learn a lot both about sheep and dogs. I know Kandy feels proud when she does a nice Away or Come By without splitting up the sheep. Contrarywise, she knows when she ignores me (or my commands are too late) and done a particularly bad job. She’s frustrated, hangs her head and is ready to leave the field. BC are so expressive, and when happy… and proud…their eyes dance as do their feet
lee williams says
Thank you for the glorious detail of your and Maggie’s great trial–we’re so proud and happy for you both! The visual picture of Maggie’s happiness you describe is wonderful! Did anyone record it (or “film” it as I still tend to say?)
I desperately want to vote a solid no for pride, except for the third definition! There’s temptation to say Maggie’s reaction fits here, but I’m not sure I can go there. First, dogs would need the cognitive ability to know when they’ve done something human-created (e.g., obedience, agility, sheep dog trial) correctly. Though they would clearly know if they’ve done something “correctly” that gave them joy (e.g., shredding a toy, chasing a rabbit, etc.).
And because *they* are excellent at reading *our* emotions and body language, surely dogs sense when they or we (as a human-canine team) have done something well? So maybe Maggie was responding to your happiness *and* her joy which resulted in her exuberance?
As a personal note, my BC would love to take a dead palm frond, shred off the pieces (as if plucking a bird’s feathers) and then would pick up the remaining “stick” in her mouth and run around with her head and tail high. When my dad saw her do this he said, “She’s doing a victory dance.” I laughed and said, “Yes, that’s what it looks like!”
A second point is, obviously, anecdotal evidence of behavior doesn’t indicate that something exists. So even we did see a few instances where we could attribute pride as a reaction, it may, I feel, do a disservice to dogs to say that dogs feel pride.
Anecdotal evidence could be *one* reason many develop and hold on to myths (for behavior and medicine) that are not in the best interest of dogs (e.g., dominance theory, ignore dogs afraid of thunder storms, high protein food is bad for kidney issues, vaccinations are needed every year, etc.)
Some may be interested in The Skeptical Vet’s blog: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/
@skeptvet for those on twitter.
And sometimes it’s not just anecdotal evidence but scientific studies (all science is not good science) that can do a disservice to dogs, such as the fMRI study that headlines declared “dogs understand language.”
Dr. John Bradshaw wrote about it here:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pets-and-their-people/201609/lexical-processing-dogs
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/jul/17/dog-training-john-bradshaw-animal-behaviour
Dr. Bradshaw is on twitter: @petsandus
It seems as if it is a slippery slope we will go down if we say that dogs can feel pride. If they feel pride, then they can feel all the other complex emotions that we as dog trainers have tried desperately to educate the public about to increase the welfare of dogs, and one way is to decrease the high (and erroneously-based) expectations that many already have for dogs.
The one that bothers me the most (because it leaves so many dogs abusively isolated for most of their lives) is the notion that dogs have a work ethic. Many handlers and trainers insist that dogs cannot “live with humans” but must be kenneled except when they are working because living with humans in a house makes them lazy, but being isolated in a kennel builds their work ethic. A work ethic would be based in pride.
I read your book when it was first published but don’t have access to it at the moment. Isn’t there a particular part of the human brain that dogs don’t possess from which secondary emotions are generated?
I went where you said not to go and didn’t your question, but this is a subject that’s never far from my thoughts, and I look forward to reading everyone’s (and your further) comments.
To Bruce: Your wife’s comment made me LOL.
lw
Michelle McMillen says
I train horses in dressage, and I most definitely have seen them fill up with pride when they accomplish something. I praise for effort all the time, so it’s not just a horse responding to praise. When one “gets” something, there’s an extra spring in their stride, they arch their neck, and “pride” is written all over their majestic self. It doesn’t happen often, but when it does it’s awesome.
Grandma Mary says
I have two rescue dogs, ESS both, ages 9 and 13. The older dog, male, is not doing very well overall, while younger female is full of herself. I wondered about taking in this active girl since my boy is getting older and deafer and used to being alone but did it a short while ago, and much to my surprise the young girl is quite careful with the older boy. Pride shows up when she steps away from the water bowl when old guy comes into the kitchen. This girl loves her water, even to play with it, but when he approaches she very graciously steps back then looks at me as if to say…”Mom, he needs water too and I know it.” It happens every time so I think she does understand his limitations, needs along with her own, and is proud to be helpful.
Jen Germann says
Anyone who’s worked with American Staffordshire terriers, Staffordshire terriers, and other pitbull-type dogs knows quite well that they feel VERY proud of themselves at times and are keen to show it off with the “pittie prance”. Nothing makes me feel better about the work I’ve done with a dog than when he or she prances about showing (at least to my way of thinking) pleasure at a task well-done. 😊
Lisa says
I train gun dogs and have to speculate that dogs do feel pride. They prance back from a difficult retrieve, all smiles and brimming with confidence. My personal dog seems to know when he has done particularly well in a trial, again, the bounce in the step, head held high, looking both regal and extremely pleased. Of course they may be feeding off our own emotions and it may be anthropomorphic to assume it is pride, but it sure looks like pride.
Peggy Lee, LCSW, MA says
Indeed, when my dog finds an object when out walking off lease (most recently a baseball and a skull in the woods), she struts around, prances back and forth in front the humans and other dogs, head held high. (I will see her doing this before I or the other dog recognize she has something, so she is not responding to a reaction from us). Also, she does not do this with regular toys or random items such as sticks. It is when she has found something she identifies in some way as a treasure to be coveted. (Yes, interpretive on my part). She is frequently around other people, dogs, at dog parks and in the woods, so I have had a wide range of environments to observe her and this particular body language and behavior is only displayed in this type of circumstance. She does not display this when excited, playful, during fetch, etc. So I vote yes – this is pride.
Minnesota Mary says
I’m not so much convinced that it’s pride as much as the feeling you get when the communication falls into place and something “clicks”. OH! So THAT’s what I was supposed to be doing! And I did it! And you’re happy! I think it’s just happiness that everything went well and keying off of my pleasure.
Jill says
My little dog definitely seems to feel pride when I’m trying to train something and he figures it out. His walk has a little bit of swagger, and he offers the behavior over and over. He used to give up when he was confused, but I think he gets a lot of extra reinforcement from feeling smart, and over time he is becoming more persistent.
Gayla says
I believe they can. Don’t we build confidence in a shy dog by helping them get past their fears? In the same way that ‘anger’ is the emotion that directly follows ‘hurt,’ what other emotion (but pride) would we ascribe following a sense of accomplishment?
Our intuitive perceptions are not always correct, of course. But they should not be totally disregarded either. Thankfully, science has not answered every mystery on God’s green earth.
Rick says
You should see how hard my two Australian Cattle Dogs will try to catch a frisby before it hits the ground. They are just like a kid trying to catch a pass in football or a pop fly. Once it touches the ground, their interest wanes. I notice this every time I take them out back to play. Is it pride or just a carryover from their instinct to hunt? Maybe both
Andrea Mauer says
I have all sorts of times I believe my dog(s) were proud. My old Pit Tommy was very proud of himself at times and knew he was loved such that he sashayed in pure joy. I even made up a song in the moment (as I do frequently) to he tune of “Hail to the Chief” ; “Here comes the Pit Bull he’s marching with his head up! Here come the Pit Bull, he’s marching with great pride.”
I also had a tiny Boxer who was formerly in a so called breeding program and was delighted with her new freedom and life. She was intent on watching me put my make-up on so I began to pretend to put makeup on her and do her hair. I would put on a necklace and she would get up to look in a mirror and would become so animated and happy and then would prance around showing us how nice she looked. It was a fun game and she was as cute as you could imagine.
Louise Wholey says
A friend had a Corgy and got a trainer to teach her agility. After some frustrating effort the trainer declared the dog untrainable. My friend decided to enter the dog anyhow. The dog made a perfect performance and looked very proud of herself. She continued to win competitions, totally proud of herself.
Alice R. says
Strictly scientifically, I cannot say whether it is pride or love of a happy audience, but it sure looks like pride. My two year old is still all puppy and loves to take classes. His response is fast and happy in classes always although he must relearn each time that he does not get to play with the other dogs. I took a class last year where, among other things, he had to go to his mat after I answered a door and asked for the behavior. Things were going well in our small class so we went off leash. When he realized he was free and his turn came, he did a huge outrun by each dog and around the room once then leapt into his bed so hard it flew across the room with him onboard. He finished up with a turn around to a perfect sit with a big grin. You could almost hear the “ta da!” He certainly looked happy, but seemed quite proud of his perfect ending as well.
Jann Becker says
I know that my dogs pick up and reflect my own emotions whether I’m pleased or dismayed by their actions, the latter being the “Hey Mom, I caught a baby mole/bunny/squirrel!” kind of thing. Pride can be either “I did it” or “Mom likes it” or some mixture of the two.
I think dogs can be “proud” of something that’s an accomplishment for them,even if they “know” we aren’t going to like it: think drinking from the commode (miniature Poodle) or reaching & eating the entire bag of Pill Pockets (Goldendoodle, while we’re at class with her little brother.) I don’t do anything more competitive than looking good in class so I don’t know if their concept of pride includes being better than another dog, but from reading the other comments, apparently it can.
Grace says
I wanted to add an observation similar to Heather’s regarding dogs feeling embarassment. While staying at a rental property recently, some ponies on the other side of the fence were too busy grazing to come say hello to my Basenji. He watched them for a few minutes, walked over to the fence to get a better look – what could possibly be in the grass that is so yummy? – then decided if it was really that good he should try some. After a few chews he spit it out, gave the ponies a look, then looked around & at me; “Dumb ponies…. gee, I hope nobody saw me eat that grass!” I couldn’t contain myself. On the walk back to the house I swear I could hear him muttering!
Diane says
In his younger days, not only did I think my dog showed pride in what he did, but so did the bystanders including the teachers. He would finish an obedience test, or overcome his fear of an agility obstacle, or do a great agility run…and he would strut and look darn proud of himself. Yes, many times it could be a response to us, but I’ve also see the opposite… humiliation perhaps, when he didn’t (couldn’t because of fear or whatever) perform. I don’t know. I try to remember not to apply my emotions to my dog without looking for alternative explanations. But sometimes if it looks like a rose, smells like a rose….best to remember, it could very well be a rose!
Congrats to you and Maggie … and all the proud things you and your dogs do!
KateH says
I don’t understand the whole ‘anthropomorphism’ bug-a-boo.’ To claim that a specific emotion is to be ‘only’ a human emotion makes no sense, when, as another animal, especially a more recent one of the tree (putting it crudely), where do we think these emotions come from in the first place? As humans and other primates have brains that are so very similar, and whose development from baby through to adult is very similar, it should be completely obvious that we share the same types of emotional growth as well. Other than having a much more complicated, even ridiculously unhelpful, fashion sense, and some extra layers of vanity because of that social construct of fashion, primates desire similar things from other primates, and will respond in remarkably similar ways when they do or don’t get those things they desire. Other mammals and other groups of animals also have many/most of the same brain structures that have control and bearing upon emotions that primates do, so to admit that they could/do have similar emotions really shouldn’t be ‘anthro’ anything, as far as I can see. Humans are not that dang special, except that our societies have gone further than other species in coming up with social strictures and bureaucracies, and THOSE things don’t make us smarter, just allow us to control individuals in a group (and often in unfair, ridiculous ways) so that power to get more resources is allocated in particular ways.
muttzrule says
Congrats to you and Maggie! I have definitely seen Duncan experience #3. After too long a time of one step forward, two steps back in working on his fears and behavior issues on my own, we enrolled in training classes. We went from beginner through advanced and he earned his CGC. From the first day of class he loved it! He learned skills quickly and with his sweet personality wrapped his trainers around his paw. They sometimes borrowed him for the “demonstration dog” to show the class how a skill was performed. I could see him just shine with happiness and more confidence each time we went to school. He knew he did well and saw that reflected back to him by his mom and trainers. Thank you for this article. It reminded me of the importance of including training opportunities and games in our normal routine, so he can experience that feeling of success often. (It helps mom too, we both struggle a bit with anxiety and confidence issues now and then.) 🙂
Mireille says
yes, I think dogs can feel pride. Although I also think there is a thin line between pride and satisfaction (or is there no difference?). The times that a dogs finds something, like prancing around with (pseudo) prey, I do not know if that is true pride?
But the time that one of my dogs solved a very difficult puzzle in a man trailing lesson he was SOOOOO proud. There was really a sense about him of achievement. And they always het praised when they find the victim (and yummy treats) but this time his response was different where ours was not really. But he was literally standing taller. And started to challenge the house rules the days after 😉 ;-).
There is another dog in my man trailing group that was very shy en low in confidence, but during the lessons when she learned she could do this nose-thing, that she could solve problems that would lead to a reward for her, she got to be much more outgoing and self assured, not only in class but also in other situations. That is something that happens more dogs that discover a talent. And in this case they do something in teamwork with their human and they have to take the initiative and their human literally has to follow.
*note* some people start recommending nose-work for all shy dogs as some sort of miracle cure. So classes start popping up everywhere. BUT; if not done properly, it can also exacerbate problems.
And Maggie: Congrats on a work well done with your human! Extra bellyrub for the sweet girl? Or should I say “power girl” Good work!
Karen Battreall says
Yes, I think dogs can feel pride. After a very nice run in Denver, my BC nearly danced out of the arena. He was an experienced herder and I think he knew that this was an exceptionally good run.
I also think they can get “disgusted”. My BC was stalking a rabbit in the back yard. I watched through the window. The rabbit would look around, the dog would freeze, the rabbit would start eating grass, the dog would creep. This went on for several minutes. My Golden saw what was going on, ran off the deck and chased the rabbit. The look he gave the Golden was priceless. I truly believe he was totally disgusted with her. I don’t think we give dogs enough credit for their feelings.
Anne S. says
Very interesting post. I would say that a dog would be able to feel delight or elation from an act, if they had enjoyed what they were duing and/or had great expectations for a reward.
I train and compete in rally obedience with my japanese spitz, a breed that isn’t well-known for being good in competitions (too little stamina for work and often too insecure/reactive towards other dogs and sometimes people). We of course train force-free, he is never yelled at or even told “no”, and I always train with great treats, setting him up for success.
When he does something that I am particularly happy about I will go “Yay!”, jump and maybe clap my hands or pump my wrist. That in turn will make him “smile”, his eyes shine and he jump eagerly up at me. He seems utterly happy and joyous. But I think that is because he has learned from experience that when I act like that, the reward will be extra good. So he feeds of me and my reaction.
I don’t think there is much doubt in general that dogs can enjoy certain activities, either because they naturally enjoy them or because they will lead to a great reward. However, I don’t think they feel pride in an accomplishment like we do. So to me, I don’t like using the word “pride” because most people will think of definition 1 or 2 when they talk about the term.
(Sorry for any mistakes, being Norwegian, English is not my native language).
em says
Hooray for Maggie! What a gorgeous place and fantastic experience for you both.
It probably comes as no surprise, but according to that third definition, I absolutely would say that dogs feel pride. Both my dogs display signs consistent with “delight or elation” following various activities.
Sandy is more human-validated in general than Otis is, and she positively beams practically ANY time someone trots out her favorite phrase—“Good Job!” She prances around on such an obvious high that I have to attract her attention to give her a food reward.
But she is also highly emotionally demonstrative when she accomplishes a self-directed task (catching a chipmunk, or knocking a ball out of another dog’s mouth so SHE can be the one who brings it back) even when the task itself is not something I wanted her to do or intend to reward her for doing.
In some cases, like the fetch usurping, she may anticipate a reward of attention and praise, or simply be sick and tired of another dog getting those things instead of her, but in the case of the chipmunk, the act itself seems to be the source of her pleasure, and her high-headed prancing looks an awful lot like a victory dance.
The sense of delight in triumph is what I notice most about Otis’ apparent prideful moments too. Otis is generally less demonstratively responsive to human approval, but so much more confident in general that “proud” is one of the adjectives strangers commonly use to describe him. I suppose he has ‘resting pride face’ or, more accurately, posture, since it’s the high head, square shoulders, and smooth, graceful gait that prompt this interpretation, I think.
Despite this baseline impression of dignity, I would say that Otis seems actively “proud of himself” following interactions where he could be said to have “won” something or carried off a trick or surprise. Sometimes when he was young, he’d prance and arch his neck, with a loose and happy facial expression after he had run down and mightily wolloped a playmate, but more often it was after something mentally challenging- “winning” a game of circle-around-the-shed by doubling back to scoot up behind his playmate- figuring out a complex series of obstacles to make his way through a patch of rough woods- taking a short cut through the brush to jump out ahead of us on the path- decisively beating a weimaraner mix playmate (one of the handful of dogs we met consistently faster than young Otis) in a game of chase on the first day of deep snow, or similarly leaving some dazzlingly fast vizlas in his dust by veering into the high grass where his greater height and momentum neutralized their speed and endurance.
After incidents like these, where the watching humans had little emotionally at stake besides the general pleasure of watching dogs at happy play, and certainly had not set up any formal reinforcement, Otis’ happy prancing, ears up and mouth open looked an awful lot like delight at his own actions.
Interestingly, now that he is older (ten and a half, venerable for a great dane) and suffers from moderate arthritis that makes roughhousing and racing less appealing to him, Otis appears to actively seek out opportunities to pull off “surprises” on our daily walks much more often than he used to. He makes a point of veering off the trail and into the brush, just so he can find an alternate path where he is out of sight for at least a moment, only to pop back out ahead of or right beside the “squares” who stuck to the path. Sometimes the brush gets too nasty and he ends up needing to backtrack, but he’s gotten increasingly good at spotting alternate routes with good cover, and now this game is a daily feature of walking with Otis.
In addition to providing him mental stimulation, Otis appears to get an emotional charge out of it, prancing and bouncing when he “finds” us, and it warms my unapologetically anthropomorphizing heart to see him creating little moments of happiness and delight despite the ways his physical limitations have curtailed our adventures.
Trisha says
Great comments, as expected. I find myself asking: If we couldn’t ask a person verbally if they were feeling proud (as we’re defining it), what would they have to do to suggest it to us? Many of the comments mentioned dogs (or other animals) who moved with an atypically raised head and a spring in their step after accomplishing something challenging. That is indeed the behavior in animals that makes me wonder if they are feeling proud. (I should also add that Maggie’s behavior was NOT like that at all. Based on her behavior I would argue that she was ELATED. Was pride part of that? Was she also relieved? I can say with certainty that I was feeling all of those things, but I’m only sure that Maggie was truly, truly happy. I can only guess as to why.)
I am indeed very sympathetic to the argument that it is seductively easy to attribute pride in an animal to what well could be other emotions (as clearly and concisely argued by lee williams). However, I would add to lee’s argument that dogs have their own challenges, not all of them are human created. Successfully killing an animal, or successfully controlling the sheep is an inherent a challenge to some dogs, and they don’t need a human to define it for them. Scoring well in a trial? Of course that is human generated, but maintaining control of challenging sheep in a difficult environment is something an experienced dog could feel a great sense of pride about.
The best test of this that we have now would be to do brain scans that record blood flow in the areas of the brain that correlate with people feeling proud, and see if the same areas of the brain light up in dogs. Of course, that still doesn’t really tell us what dogs are feeling, but that’s the best we can do right now I suppose. I myself am comfortable arguing that dogs can indeed feel pride. I’m not sure it’s such a complicated emotion… isn’t it a kind of happiness that results from attempting something challenging successfully? That doesn’t mean I think dogs experience pride exactly as we do, or that they experience it as often as we do, but I’m not yet convinced that a sentient creature with a complicated social life and a back history of needing to solve serious, challenging problems can’t feel a sense of happiness after accomplishing something difficult.
I go back though to my first question: What would a dog have to do to prove to us that he or she is feeling pride?
HFR says
I think I’ll be in the minority (along with @lee williams) on this. I’m not sure dogs feel pride because they act like they are prideful. Of course, I have seen dogs who look like they are proud of themselves: prancing, relaxed, happy, etc. But I don’t necessarily think they are thinking to themselves: “That was a hard thing to do, I worked at it and worked at it and finally accomplished it. Good for me!” I think they are simply super happy and content.
It’s the same with smiling dogs. Are all dogs with wide open mouths, lolling tongue and crinkled eyes smiling? Pitbull’s “smiles” look most like human smiles, so we often say they are smiling. Now smiling and being relaxed go hand-in-hand, so it’s not necessarily wrong to assume that, but I don’t think it’s smiling exactly like we smile (in rxn to some specific stimulus or thought).
When we assume what resembles our body language means the same on a dog (or any other animal), that’s when we start saying that a dog who bows its head, closes its eyes and cowers in a corner is feeling “guilty” for tearing up a sock (I’m speaking of that awful youtube video of the yellow lab, Denver, who btw, is a huge instagram star now). When their body language is similar to ours and for a similar reason it doesn’t mean their feelings are as layered as ours.
Maggie was genuinely more escstatic than ever. She got to run with the sheep, tell them what to do and didn’t get stopped or have to stop because something went wrong. She was about as satisfied, content, happy as she could be. Doing what comes naturally and probably picking up on how happy it made you. But, proud? I’m thinking not.
lee williams says
I knew my opinion would be opposite of what you believe and what most people would say.
I could already hear, “Yes, they feel pride because my dog…..”
Which is exactly what people say if one says dogs don’t understand language. “Yes, they do because my dog…..”
Or they don’t feel guilt, “Yes, they do because my dog….”
So, it must be true.
I believe dogs being are sentient beings.
I believe goldfish are sentient beings (and am distressed when they are placed in poor conditions.)
However, philosophically, I view pride as different from happiness and believe putting unjust expectations on dogs has lead to and will continue to lead to dog abuse.
Maybe that’s one reason for this article:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/01/should-we-stop-keeping-pets-why-more-and-more-ethicists-say-yes
Once again, I haven’t answered your question.
LisaW says
“What would a dog have to do to prove to us that he or she is feeling pride?”
I don’t think a dog can prove their feelings of pride. I think we are defining it, and I believe dogs do feel it, but proof of it without a true common reference point is tough. I’m not sure we can prove we are feeling pride either. We humans just happen to agree on a common definition.
But, then there is the notion that science and fact (or proof) aren’t always codependent. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/im-a-scientist-and-i-dont-believe-in-facts/
Diane says
A human can feel pride over a length of time….accomplishments achieved over years. I don’t know if a dog can do this. But there can be pride in an immediate accomplishment. Humans will generally stand taller, or brag perhaps, or quietly acknowledge the praise of others. There are all kinds of ways humans feel pride and show it..or don’t show it. And we can see this in dogs – objectively or not. Yes, scientifically it would be wonderful to devise a test to show a neurological effects comparison between human and dogs to measure “pride”. But pride would need to be defined, and we would need to make sure the tests are designed for the species…way over my head!
Jenny H says
I don’t know that I agree with the Merriam Webster #3 definition of ‘pride’. “delight or elation arising from some act” to me is quite distinct from ‘pride’ (which to me has something to do really with feeling of self-worth).
I would say, that by my (and Chambers Dictionaries) definition of pride, no dogs don’t feel “pride”. Often pride comes from doing something good/necessary that you do NOT enjoy. Pride also had the suggestion that you feel that other people admire you (or should admire you) for what you’ve done
Dogs show joy and pleasure though in ‘doing what they enjoy well’. In my language that is being pleased, happy, chuffed. I would also think that Maggie’s joy has a lot more to do with your joy.
Nicla says
Can dogs feel pride? I believe they feel a deep sense of joy, pleasure and satisfaction by doing things they want to do. But pride in completing a task well? That implies understanding a sense of achievement bubqoeking to a standard.
This is when I remind myself that it doesn’t matter what I believe because science doesn’t care.
Dogs are sentient and have a powerfully rich emotional world.
If dogs experience pride in the same sense that we do then it seems to imply that they have developed an ego. People speak about pride coming before a fall and that being too proud is actually rather a negative personality trait which can lead to bragging and bravado. Therefore, this leads me to ask are dogs self aware?
Knowing that even defining consciousness can get complicated I would conclude that If dogs feel anything it is probably much more simple emotions and in the primary spectrum – joy, pleasure and contentment.
I also think that dogs really need to be given a long leash, pardon the pun, with regard to our expectations. If we say they can feel pride then we can also start to believe that they can also feel guilty if they don’t do what we want them to do. There is so much dog shaming on the internet with people misinterpreting behaviour as guilt and shame and posting videos because they think it is funny.
I guess I am not that comfortable with pride in dogs because as captive animals they get so little in the way of choices anyway and we can never really understand what is going on neurologically without fMRI.
As even the most intelligent BC has about the equivalent intelligence as a toddler, do we know if 2 and 3 year old human brains have developed to the extent to experience pride?
em says
lee williams, thank you for some thought provoking comments.
Thinking over what you’ve said, I’m afraid I do disagree with one of your premises. If there were some way to conclusively prove that dogs feel complex emotions like pride, guilt, or shame I don’t understand why dog abuse would be the likely consequence.
We readily accept that human toddlers experience a rich range of deeply felt (and vociferously expressed) emotions, yet no one I have ever met would suggest that a three year old is morally accountable for their behavior. Believing that dogs or other animals experience a range of emotions similar to our own doesn’t have any bearing on the question of whether they have the cognitive capacity necessary to be held responsible for their actions.
I am also wary of that entire line of argument- it never hurts to be conscious of the potential ramifications of of a hypothesis or conclusion, but it can be a slippery slope- leaping to conclusions because we’d like to believe them and resisting conclusions because they may be inconvenient are BOTH counterproductive if our goal is fair inquiry leading to honest understanding.
The question here is well-framed. If dogs can feel pride, how could we know it? Like Trisha, I’d love to see something like comparative brain scans, but in the absence of that type of evidence (or perhaps, in addition to it) gestural and facial expressions may indeed constitute a potential subject for study. It would indeed be great to see some of this anecdata transformed into data.
In any case, thanks so much for a fantastic discussion!
Susan Stewart says
My AmStaff/Mastiff mix, Mr. Darcy, shows he’s proud when he’s accomplished a new task or trick at the dog pool (or is doing an “old trick” in front of a new audience at the pool). I completely believe that he knows when he’s done something new and extraordinary and has emotions about that. He does this “Did you see THAT?” look over his shoulder as he swims by…. it helps that he’s also a bit of a ham.
He isn’t a natural swimmer, so every new task or activity he conquers in the water is a huge step for him….
Mireille says
Hmm. I must say that to make a feelings of selfworth dependent on doing something good/necessary that you do NOT enjoy, to me would seem a very cultural interpretation of pride.
However, I would say that pride as such might have something to with achieving something difficult or something you did not think you had in you. Crossing a line, and in that sense I would argue that dogs feel pride.
I love making Mosaics, a relatively new hobby. And I can feel really proud of something I have made, but also of the times I tried something new that worked out as planned of the times I did something that requiered more patience than I usually have. And Ienjoy it when other people like it too. But my feeling of accomplisment and pride are not dependent on what other people think of it. So I would like to argue that in dogs, the fact that dogs show the behaviour before or even if human joy, is indicative of it’s existence.
Frances says
Are we getting a bit bogged down in semantics? The definition Trisha originally gave – “#3, or delight or elation arising from some act” – seems to me to apply to my dogs, even if the definition were further qualified by including a sense of achievement. Other kinds of pride – being proud of their lineage, or where they live, or their scholastic achievements, etc, etc, quite definitely do not apply. Sometimes they are undoubtedly reflecting my delight – after all, when I am really pleased with them lots of good things happen – but often they are thoroughly pleased with themselves over something that I am neutral about, or even definitely disapprove of (like the rabbit). To take an example, on one walk we do occasionally there is a particularly nice spot down by the river, but to get there we have to cross a bridge with small gaps between the slats that Sophy hates. She won’t walk over it, no matter how much I encourage her, nor does she want to be carried over it. But by exploring a bit, she found another much longer way, involving a hole in the fence, stepping stones, and wading across a shallow stream. This is a dog that hates getting her feet wet, but she wades up to her tummy because she has considered a problem, and chosen that way to solve it, and done it all by herself. Once across, she is very definitely delighted with herself, even running zoomies, which she rarely risks these days. Frankly, I would as soon have a clean dry dog that walked across perfectly safe bridges, but go along with it because it makes Sophy happy, to the extent that she will ask to make a detour to go down that way. Is that delight and elation in an act or achievement? Or something simpler – and if so, what?
Nicola says
Mark Bekoff’s response to Stanely Coren who asserted dogs don’t experience secondary emotions.
“We also don’t know if dogs experience guilt, pride, and shame. However, because it’s been claimed that other mammals with whom dogs share the same neural bases for emotions do experience guilt, pride, and shame and other complex emotions, there’s no reason why dogs cannot. And, there’s solid biological/evolutionary reasons to assume dogs can and do. Recall Charles Darwin’s ideas about evolutionary continuity in which the differences among species are seen to be variations in degree rather than kind – “If we have or experience something, ‘they’ (other animals) do too.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201303/can-dogs-experience-guilt-pride-and-shame-why-not
However, John Bradshaw said earlier this year:
“The majority of cat owners believe that their cats can feel pride, but biologists consider this complex emotion to be beyond the capabilities of the feline (or canine) brain.”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/21/dogs-talk-tell-home-truths-technology-pets-feeling
Take note canine scientists, we could do with some studies on this. 🙀🐶👍😊
It’s still a hypothesis because the research has not been done.
Diane says
Re-reading the blog, if you define pride as “delight or elation arising from some act” it would be difficult to differentiate between exuberance and pride. I’ve often seen my dog happy or exuberant. I have also seen what I interpret as pride. I’ll attempt to only describe my dog when I felt he experienced pride…as that is all I have to offer…his mouth is not open, his gate is high on his feet and it is not because he is standing taller to other dogs he is in conflict with. He has a prance. I have been working my dog when I have seen this..I’ve heard the bystanders say “he is so proud”. It occurs during or after an accomplishment. I have also seen him exuberant ……he does the “spins”..his exuberance can very well can be a response to compliment or praise. Exuberance can follow what I have seen as “pride”. I am certainly not an ethologist…wish I had more. This blog obviously touched me …. I can’t help but defend the pride I have witnessed.
Diane Mattson says
I think dogs, (and other mammals) feel great joy and satisfaction when things go well. Dogs especially enjoy being useful members of the pack. Is it pride? I’m not sure they engage enough in self-reflection for pride. However, I believe they are close, as it is obvious they enjoy getting things right, whether for us, or their own kind. So my guess is probably not pride, as such, but awfully close. Close enough that Trish and Maggie shared a great run together, and were enjoying doing things well together. And, isn’t it refreshing that Maggie could take pleasure in her work without patting herself on the back? She has Trish for that!
Anyway, this is just my guess. Congratulations to Maggie and Trish!
Mary Nielsen says
I believe that the animals can experience pride. I guess they feel that you are happy with them, they are happy with what they are doing and everything seems to be okay.
They feel that what they are doing is doing good for us, they love us and want to help because they can and that makes them happy and proud!
Vita Gewen says
Despite my encouragement, she refuses to walk over it or to be carried over it. She found a longer way, which included wading across a shallow stream, through a hole in the fence, and through stepping stones. She has considered her problem, chosen the way to solve it, and made the decision for herself to wade up to her tummy despite her dislike of getting her feet wet. Even though she rarely risked zoomies these days, she is more than satisfied with herself once she got over. Sophy will ask to make a detour to go down that way, even though I would prefer a dog that is clean and dry and walks across perfectly safe bridges. Is that elation and delight in a success? Are there simpler emotions – and if so, what are they?