I’m so curious what you think of what’s happening in this video. As you can see, it’s label suggests that the dam is “teaching her puppies to be calm.”
(Video from the YouTube channel of Sent from Heaven)
What I’m especially interested in is the reaction I got when I posted this on Facebook yesterday. Many people agreed with my evaluation that “teaching calm” is actually “weaning the puppies.” But others had stronger reactions, including ” . . . this behavior from the moma would be a red flag for me. . .,” and “This is heartbreaking to watch.”
Others were worried about the effect that the dam’s behavior will have on the puppies, suggesting that they will be traumatized by what happened. Certainly there are plenty of body shakes and yawns to indicate stress in the puppies, but given what we know about the value of some stress during development, I wouldn’t see this as a problem. (Aside: This would be a great video to teach novices about stress signals.) See, for example, Kristina Spaulding’s book, The Stress Factor in Dogs. On page 67 she says: “There is evidence from a few different studies that animals that experience moderate levels of stress during development–rather than mild or severe stress–actually show increased stress resiliency. This is sometimes referred to as a stress inoculation effect.”
Of course, now one has to decide what is mild, moderate, or severe. Given no guidelines beyond our own experience and observations, I’d argue that this could well qualify as “moderate” stress. Thoughts?
It is clear from the video that the dam is in a small space, and has no way to get away from the puppies. (Note: The owner is standing by the gate, praising her.) It’s unclear why she has been, at the beginning of the video, put in with the puppies. I’d argue that it’s clear that the milk bar is closed, and that, in addition, mom is pretty much done with motherhood and would like to get on with her day job.
My questions boil down to two: First, how extreme is the mother’s behavior? From my experience, her behavior is more assertive or extreme than I’ve seen some dams exhibit, but I don’t see it as a game changer. Mom is trapped, REALLY is done with nursing, but actually shows a lot of inhibition. None of her behavior seems out of the box inappropriate. Puppies can be exceptionally demanding, and at that age, can make nursing extremely painful. A mom illustrating LIMA? Weaning is not always pretty in mammals, but that doesn’t mean it’s traumatic. In addition, all of her signals could be read as good ways to start puppies learning about social signals.
Second, what about the response of the puppies? Is this moderate or severe stress? I vote for moderate. And, but . . . , I am curious about how quiet the puppies become. I can think of many litters I’ve seen who would either keep trying, displace on each other (can you spell terriers?), or go back to playing. This litter seems soft to me, and especially easy to inhibit. Are they? If so, compared to what? And if so, why? From genetics or earlier experience? Has mom been actually aggressive in the past? What’s your guess?
Last piece of info: Here’s what the owner said when he posted the video: “Rosalie is an experienced dog mother. This is her last litter (she just had 4). She wants to enter the puppy room in peace but her puppies are too excited. She also wants to teach them to stop drinking milk anymore. When the puppies are getting calm Rosalie starts taking care of them. With this behavior she teaches them that the only way to success (in this case being together with the mother) includes a calm energy level.”
Which leads to one more question: Is the dam actively teaching the puppies to be calm? Let me know what you think.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: My apologies for the huge photograph below, but I just couldn’t bear cropping it down any more. It’s from late last week, after we FINALLY got rain last Wednesday (2.5 inches after .3 for the last 2.5 months. Please note I want to write that entire sentence in CAPS.) And then, it’s rained a bit every single night since, but sunny during the day. We have left hell and gone to heaven. For now.
In the center of the photo are rain drops backlit by the sun last Thursday or Friday evening. My day lilies, always a great joy in July, are happy because Jim and I watered the perennials religiously, and, if I do say, endlessly. We are lucky to have a private well, and a healthy amount of ground water in southern Wisconsin.
Here’s another shot. Sorry it’s repetitive, I’m just indulging myself here.
Sunday Jim and I took the dogs out on our usual weekend “off the farm” walk. I love how Skip’s tail signals that he just picked up an interesting scent (canine related I’m guessing?), and is on his way to join Maggie investigating it.
That’s it for this week, no time for more photos. I’m behind in everything (Emailers–I’m paddling as fast as I can!).
I hope you are not in the massive group of people assaulted by searing heat, floods, more smoke (here again today too, sigh), or any other apocalyptic weather phenomenon. If so, my warmest sympathy and concern. Here in southern Wisconsin we have a break, then it’s back to too much heat at the end of the week, but nothing like down south. Here’s hoping things regulate soon.
Join in with your thoughts about the video. Can’t wait to hear what you think!
Frances says
Interesting video. I have not been around dams weaning litters for many years but to me it seems towards the extreme end of things – I remember the mum saying Enough! with an air snap, but then usually simply removing herself from the pups rather than continuing to chastise them. And the pups’ careful body posture is a bit extreme too – I don’t recall ever seeing a litter lie down and wait in just that way before. It has set me thinking of how Sophy raised Freddy when he arrived at 10 weeks old – she set very firm, very explicit ground rules as to how close he could come to her and spelled them out extremely clearly. He responded by stopping, thinking and then taking a wider circle that avoided her to get to where he wanted to be, but I don’t think he ever collapsed into a conciliatory puddle like that. I think if I were choosing a pup I would be a bit concerned, and would pay a lot of attention to how the pups reacted to other potentially stressful situations.
Your garden is looking wonderful – rain is such a blessing after draught. It has turned cool and damp here, which also feels a blessing compared to the unbearable temperatures so many people are facing.
Lucy Lancaster says
I’ve been breeding dogs for 20 years. This is how puppies are weaned. If it was left up to the puppies, they’d nurse forever. The dam sounds scary, but this is how the puppies learn. The important question, however, is can she get away from the litter? Hopefully, if she showed that she wanted to leave the room, the breeder would immediately open the gate. The puppies are showing stress signs, but not excessively so. The dam is nuzzling them and mothering them which is very rewarding for the puppies.
Carol says
Wow just finished reading the FB comments after watching the video.
I do agree with the comments that the dam should be able to leave the puppies and it is a confined space, which is exacerbating the stress levels.
Do I think the puppies would be suffering lifelong trauma – how can anyone tell? Surely it will depend on the individual puppies? If they were fearful to start with then they may be more affected. But the puppies who are disciplined most appear to be acting the most confidently and go back for more before they learn to inhibit their behaviour.
Yes the dam is exhibiting moderate stress signs – she may also be in pain that’s impacting her response, if so then I would question why the breeder isn’t giving her an exit route and question if she’s been checked for pain.
I’m not a breeder and haven’t been around a dam and her puppies except when we went to see puppies/their parents when we acquired our first puppy, which is hardly going to be representative of what happens all the time when visitors are not present. This video is the same it’s a snapshot. How do we know what’s happened either side of this activity.
Sandy Grambort says
I loved this video. I see a mom dog teaching valuable social skills to rambunctious overly-excited pups. Her body language clearly lets the pups know what behavior is acceptable and what is unacceptable. Clearly the puppies have seen this behavior in her before, and they understand that she is serious because she’s been consistent in her requirements. We could learn a lot from this mom dog. lol. Extremely important life skill for these babies as they grow up and enter the real world of dogs on leashes, loose dogs, dogs at the dog park, dogs at training class, dogs at sporting events, just dogs being dogs handled by people who have a varying degree of knowledge when it comes to dog body language. Bravo, momma! I’ll bet that these puppies will be a success in the real world, wherever they land.
Kathryn Appelbaum says
I wondered if the mother was in pain.
MJ Marijane Moss says
Over 65vyrs w dogs, many breeds n mutts, I have participated in 7 litters. 2 Westie, 4 Afghan Hound and 1 Lurcher ( 5 bitches), all did the weanibgs themselves with a lot less drama. We always kept pups til 9-11 weeks and kept some (3 in one litter of 8) for the home pack. She is sooo dinecw pups, I wonder if hercteatsbare inflamed. I’d sure cut her food to speed milk reduction. Pups will be fine. Appropriate submission while not terrified. We have two Lurcher boys now w Mama Kelu. She is 24″ @42 lb…son Dobby is @26 +/- ” and 55 lb, other son, Hawking is 30″ @75 lb. She is 1/2 Giant Schnauzer,1/2 Whippet. Papa is Afghan Hound. Boys phenotype is wild gene expression. All great parents Ch of their sort. My point is that fab momma dog did a great job raising litter of 6 and if the boys get too rowdy, she will put either of them flat down. Argument settled as it should be. Bitches rule.
By the by , Hawking, after puppy n basic CGC class went to Carolyn Wilki’s Raspberry Ridge Sheep Farm for a Herding Instinct Test. Aced it w moves that’d make any BC owner proud. I will have him back there for more. She is closest master trainer I know.
Ana Schnellmann says
To me, it’s important to give the dam a way to be separated, at will, from her puppies, and I don’t see that here. I agree she shows a LOT of inhibition. I agree the lesson is more doggish–weaning–than “teaching calmness,” which is, I think, more of a human concept. The pups look to be about six weeks old, maybe seven, and that’s time for them to realize the milk bar IS closed. I appreciate and agree with your insights.
Paula Sunday says
I think this mother is teaching what I as a dog trainer and puppy owner support person wants these pups to know. It would be interesting to see how they respond the next time she comes to the pen. She is vocal not aggressive, never touches them with her teeth. Some stop after the first warning, some are more persistent. I understand why some people think she shouldn’t have access to the pups and it could be detrimental, but they have never had to deal with bitey pups who are relentless and razor sharp teeth. I honestly wish every puppy could have this lesson before going home to human puppies!
Jen C says
Gorgeous photos!! Thanks for sharing this video.
So, owner’s words. I have more questions than observations 🙂 –it seems like he speaks German or a similar language, so my first question may simply be a translation thing : “This is her last litter (she just had 4).” Does he mean “latest” or “final” litter? And does he mean 4 total in her life? Or 4 in a row or what? So my question is how many litters is okay for a momma to have and over what period of time? or is 4 too stressful? I’ve never bred a dog, so I have no clue. Also does she really want to enter the puppy room or is this kinda staged for the internet? Also, some of his language tells me that he just might subscribe to that whole paradigm around “calm assertiveness,” which is a bit of a flag that maybe owner subscribes to the “leader of the pack” stuff.
The only thing I’ll say here about Momma is that her snarling freaked me the heck out! What would you have done here? Again, I’ve never been around a dog who is weaning her pups for more than a few minutes. So I am totally clueless there! I am glad to see that puppies are still with Mom at this age, as it means less stress for future human parents as these pups will have learned more about doggy language.
Thanks for sharing. Happy summer and stay cool!
Elizabeth says
Your phots are beautiful! Thanks for sharing!
About the video: I don’t see the mother’s behavior as extreme at all. I didn’t notice her nip any of the puppies or persist after they backed off.
I vote for moderate to mild stress. The puppies are not cowering, whimpering or huddling together. This is probably not the first time milk has been denied or limited, and they are eating solid food now.
What would tell us that she’s not teaching them to be calm and what purpose does calm serve for the pups? Are you asking if she can communicate to them what she’s learned about “calm”?
How much has domestic dog behavior been altered from wild canine pack behavior by living with humans?
Animals teaching what they’ve learned to other animals is a fascinating subject and I wonder if that’s also within your questions?
Charlotte Kasner says
I would definitely endorse the fact that this bitch should be able to have a break from her pups as she is clearly not willing to let them feed and yes, there are a lot of stress signals from the whelps.
I would look to Dr Susan Friedman here when she cautions against applying labels to behaviours. In fact I would go further and consider that we should not be attributing intentions to the bitch here, other than that she is clearly demonstrating the desire to keep her pups away from feeding.
The label “calm” could just as well be “given up trying”. Turid Rugaas identifies yawning as a calming signal but it is also (and I would argue in this example) a stress reaction.
What concerns me is that inexperienced breeders might deliberately leave an unwilling bitch in with older whelps thinking that she will teach the puppies to “be calm” much in the same way as some people advocate leaving fighting dogs to “sort it out themselves” or even deliberately introduce unwilling dogs to each other so that they can “learn how to cope”.
This behaviour is likely to happen as whelps are being weaned, and I think that breeders should be observant enough to then give the bitch more breaks. Yes indeed it might help the pups to become resilient but that is a world away from deliberately creating a situation where the bitch may not react so well.
I have a very bold Aussie pup who has faced down almost every challenge that he has met so far with a “You and whose army” approach. Great for a working breed that may be faced with concrete-headed sheep and spooky cattle. I regularly see his parents and 5 of his 7 siblings at shows. He has one brother who is just as bold and independent. The others seem much more laid back.
I was at a show at the end of the day waiting for his breeder to give me a lift to the station. She was holding his mother on a loose lead a couple of feet away and we had been chatting for about 10 minutes with neither dog appearing to pay any attention to the other. Suddenly, Travis’ mother ripped the lead out of the breeder’s hands and laid into Travis big time. It’s the first – in fact only – time that I’ve heard him squeal like the puppy he is and he carried on for several seconds after she was back in her crate.
There was nothing that either of us could identify as an antecedent to this reaction at the time, but I do wonder if he had really pushed his luck when he was still feeding. They had shared a tent and a car (crated) and been fine with each other when out on the lead at shows. It was “all spitting and swearing” on her part, but it could well have been different had they been forced into a small space together or f we had not been there to intervene.
MinnesotaMary says
Cool video! I saw a mom tail-waggingly eager to go into the room to see her puppies. I saw their excitement, which waned when she corrected them. The milk bar is definitely closed. Moderate but not severe stress from the pups, even after the one chewed her tail and got properly corrected. The calm submissive puppies near the end were a marked contrast to the almost frenetic energy when she came up to and then through the gate. I think the puppies are most in need of experiences outside of the room and together but away from mom. And mom definitely loves them but wants to have them weaned and living their own lives.
Stacey Gehrman says
I agree with you on all points. Typical behavior. Yes the pups are a bit stressed. Normal at weaning. Mom didn’t bite any of them. You’re spot on about different breeds too. I’ve had Bull Terriers and those puppies would never have given up so easily and there would have been fights. I think those who were worried about this never had experience with litters of various breeds or different bitches. It’s not about calming. It’s about weaning behavior. ” No, you can’t have the milk bar.”
Lorraine says
I see that the dam goes directly to the food bowl to check it and suspect that is the attraction for entering the puppy enclosure, not any desire to interact with the puppies. It’s also notable that dogs do not establish long term family bonds with their offspring the way wolves do. Once a dog Mom is done with her pups, she’s done. She isn’t interested in interacting further. In free-living, feral dog populations, the mom simply abandons the litter once they are weaned and most of the puppies die ( ‘What is a Dog’ by Ray and Lorna Coppinger provides a fascinating look at the lives of street dogs).
chloe De Segonzac says
I think the mom is teaching the pups to be cautious around her which is a good lesson for the pups as in recognizing a dog who doesn’t want to be approached and backing off. She seems at the end to want to care for pups but for some reason cannot. Medical issues? Arthritis for example? One thing I noticed is her tail doesn’t move and overall she seems like an old dog.
LisaW says
“Can you spell terrier?” Frontward and backward! Thanks, I needed that this morning. :-0
Linda H. says
Thank you for sharing this video. I rescued a small cock-a-poo type dog. She weaned her puppies between 11-12 weeks but it was a process. She began by pushing them away gently, then another week with holding her availability until she was ready, and soon after that denial. When she was in process and was nursing on her terms she exhibited the same behavior. I kept 2 pups and she mothered them until she passed. I applaud the breeder for allowing the dogs to go through this process naturally instead of rehoming them to soon (this is an assumption of course).
I agree this is a great video that shows stress responses, but also recovery. If the mom has had 4 litters then she has done this before. Her body language was positive and she looked like she wanted to go in and if she wanted out she knew where the gate was. It appears the puppies are learning some impulse control and how to modify their behavior accordingly. I wish all pups where provided the opportunity to wean naturally, learn impulse control, bite inhibition, and all the other behaviors dog owners would like to address.
J says
We only have this one video to go on, but it seems to me she is teaching that the milk bar is closed and possibly may be teaching a pup that puppy teeth are not to be used at the milk bar. Yes, it would be very nice if the space were bigger . The question is what are the puppies learning. Probably that the milk bar is closed, possibly not to use teeth on a teat and possibly (sort of joking, but not really) that a siblings actions can get one in trouble. That, if it occurred is possibly a confusing and not valuable lesson that might be eliminated with a larger space . From this ONE video, I am not worried for the pups, with the slight exception that the interpretation of calmness may lead the owner astray in continuing management. One factor in my lack of concern, is that they are of a breed that is usually resilient, not prone to shyness or to taking things overly personally, and are prone to be violators of space AKA gundog breeds who work closely, so a ‘get away from me lesson’ is not ‘wasted’ on them. I do not think the dam is teaching them to be calm. I think they are learning to modulate their behavior instead, in certain situations, possibly a good lesson, just perhaps not taught under perfect situation, Stillness(freeze perhaps) equating to calm is my only concern. I am not a dog professional, so take what I say with a grain of salt offered as a random internet opinion
Chris Johnson says
It’s a little hard to judge how severe she is without seeing previous interactions. Is she just beginning the weaning process? But one thing that I get from this is that she’s teaching a valuable lesson in listening to messages from other dogs! I’ve owned a dog services business for 18 years. Up until a couple of years ago we offered a “small” doggie daycare (max 14 dogs/day, small compared to many, no crates and lots of time outdoors in our 1 acre fenced field). Many pups don’t learn this lesson and get themselves into trouble by not listening, not understanding, messages given by other dogs.
Judith Villa says
That’s a good mom! Those puppies need to be weaned., obviously, and she’s doing a very good job of it. She seems only slightly exasperated, but mostly just into teaching boundaries and acceptable behavior. I’m glad she doesn’t have to have any more litters because for seems like plenty.
Gayla says
I think she’s weaning them and this isn’t their first lesson. Only two needed reminding and even the most persistent one (that went under the chair) didn’t seem traumatized. Though the dam would make a great dog trainer, I think we’re projecting if we believe she’s ‘teaching calm.’ If her main focus for wanting to enter was to check the food dish, she didn’t ask to leave once she saw that it was empty. And even though the space looks small, I didn’t see any indication that she felt trapped.
Very cool video and gorgeous photos of your yard!
Carolyn says
Someone posted this video to a Golden Retriever Facebook group I am in. This group is only for reputable breeders and people who compete with their Goldens. The general consensus was that the mother was way over the top with her corrections and the subdued behavior of the puppies was also problematic. There were red flags all over the place in the video and most of the breeders would not breed this bitch again. Breeds are different, I know that Dr Camille Ward did a study looking at litters of different breeds and found the aggression levels between the puppies was significantly higher in, for example, the Dobe puppies than the Lab puppies.
Arnette Small says
I saw appropriate behavior from both the mom and puppies . Some questioned if she was in pain and any nursing mother knows that tests and mammary glands can get sore during weaning , I have joked that baby teeth are mother nature’s weaning tools
Lisa says
Maybe she’s reinforcing the notion that “no” really does mean “no.” This is a lesson my cairn terrier will never learn! 🙂
Gayla says
I wanted to to add; I might be willing to make the leap that she was teaching calm if she had corrected them for starting to play with each other…
Linda Gallacher says
Totally agree with the answer posted by Sandy Grambort, this mother is teaching valuable lessons on reading and respecting other dogs. I would be very comfortable buying a puppy from this litter!
Your flowers are beautiful!
Eileen Fletcher says
I think that prior to this video there may have been more severe interactions. Puppies are relentless and the way these back down seems to me to be learned behaviour ie it’s not the first time the milk bar has been closed.
Again, like everyone else, if the dam had a place to escape, she probably wouldn’t need to do thos.
Jamie Root says
My Komondor nursed until 8 weeks, but she demanded her litter allow her to sleep in peace from 3 weeks. Like this video, she gave kisses to the pups when they backed off. Koms are not a soft breed. Watching the pups learn to get permission to touch the cleavage was very helpful in future recommendations of homes.
My girl could have jumped on the couch, out of reach, but chose to stay near her wee demons.
Scott Fischer says
I really enjoyed seeing that. No human, I don’t care how long any of us have been training, can communicate as effectively with a dog as well as another dog. Amazing to see.
While I was surprised to see the pups all calm down and back off so quickly, we don’t know the history of this family unit and how much prior “work” went into achieving that result. I don’t think the behavior of either dam or puppies was extreme, however. I’ll agree that I’d like to see mom have a convenient way to exit if she wants one.
As to the question of what, if anything, was being taught? I believe the answer is something that I bring up with almost all of my clients – to recognize and respect the personal space of another. It’s a skill that all well-socialized dogs develop and one I find sorely lacking in so many dogs I encounter.
Helen Gibbons says
Interesting…she’s says enough by her behavior and then watches and does a perfect positive reinforcement to them for following her command of “enough”. I think this behavior is normal. I have a rescue who had a litter and the pups died from neglect of the owner before I found her on the side of the road. I have seen her play with litters of foster pups and do the same growl when they are overreactive. She will lay down and the pups follow suit usually and they all re-Ingage appropriately…. Or the pups go off on their own for a bit. No red flags for me…
Kristine Dalton says
It’s mom teaching her kids how to behave, something we humans need a little more of.
Suzanne LaCroix says
Totally normal behavior by Mom. But not all Mom’s will do this. Some let their kids “walk all over them” and it can fall to an aunt or grandma (or even an uncle!) in the Breeder’s home to take on the disciplining of unwanted nursing and begging for regurgitation by the puppies. We keep our pups until 12 weeks specifically because these types of interactions with adults during weaning have produced juveniles with a better foundation for impulse control and bite inhibition. I have bred Basenjis for over 20 years.
Rosie Stein says
Here’s my big question: if this dam is “teaching” her pups to be calm, why haven’t they learned it yet? I sound flip, but in litters I’ve seen the dam is giving small corrections much earlier than in this video and pups are learning her signals without the extreme drama I see here. Yes, as the pups grow their actions will be stronger and wild at times, but it doesn’t happen over night. I feel this dam is over stressed, and her heavy handed corrections shown in the video indicates something other than teaching.
Elsie Louise Pfleider says
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this and inviting ours. I think the mom corrected the pups at just right level; commensurate to the level of the over eagerness of the pups. It looked like a real “multitude” going at her at the same time. Her correction was not more than necessary. She did not physically savage or bite them, as they were doing to her, but it was effective. (And she did start with a definite and prolonged growl, which didn’t stop them). If, as adult dogs, they were to go at any animal or person with that level of excitement we would all say they had not been taught manners and pose a physical danger to others. This mom is teaching them important manners that will save their lives later. Whatever stress they experienced here was short lived and worth it. They learned an important lesson and survived, plus the mom was rewarding appropriate behavior. Value for value, that stress was worth their lives later.
Those are beautiful flowers. Lovely colors. Thank you for the photos. Hot summer here is over and the rains have arrived. So not too many flowers are left. It’s nice to imagine such bright colors again.
Mary says
This doesn’t answer your questions but this so reminds of driving from LA to the East Coast with three boys all under the age of 8 while Dad was serving in the military. By day 3 I am sure I looked and sounded exactly like this dam. By the time we arrived on the East Coast I was prepared to conduct a vasectomy on my husband the minute I saw him again
Trisha says
Mary, thanks for the laugh!
Lise renstrom says
It may have looked harsh to the puppies, but I think the dam did very well disciplining the pups. Pups will push the envelope as far as they can, that’s natural. She did not hurt them, she got her point across and then followed up with reassurance.
I think mom did a good job!
babs levedahl says
A momma dog setting limits. Good for her. She willingly entered into the space, so she had a choice there. And the pups learned!…Back off the milk supply, Dam can be in here without you all nursing. I hear all about modern training techniques(positive only…….blah blah blah) and my comment always is…”Watch momma dog, she knows how to teach her pups, and she may show some teeth or growl, and the pups must learn…to respect limits of space, to stop being so obnoxious, to wait, to inhibit those teeth…all important life lessons.”
Yevette says
The mother needs the ability to choose to leave. With that option available she quite possibly would have still chosen to let the pups know to respect her space vs walk away. My concern is that she looks in pain. Structurally in the rear she appears to be adjusting her walk. She is recovering from pregnancy and all that entails which can lead to general upset. Not to mention nursing tenderness. I was not worried by her display. Had she been singling one individual out then I would monitor closely as that can happen and be an issue for the one. In regard to the response of the puppies … it wasn’t so stressful that they didn’t give it a second go !!! From a behavioral perspective I have to ask “was the experience of stress do to the mother setting boundaries OR was it from the puppies not getting their way ???
Joyce Pettitt says
I think she’s absolutely doing a beautiful job teaching her pups not to rush her but to settle down and relax and then feed I trust dog’s instincts on how to manage each other she was “yelling” at them she wasn’t hurting them and I think it’s very important that pups teach each other how to be pups. I tend to be from the school of respecting that they have their own language and their own and when you interrupt that process that’s when the harm happens
April Fearn says
I’d buy a puppy from this litter ! These puppies are receiving a kind, fair but non-negotiable education from an obviously very experienced mother. As a trainer, owner and retired breeder, I teach calm behaviour at all times (except when I ramp up play or training). I want puppies to know when ‘enough is enough’ and yes……this will cause low to moderate stress – welcome to the real world puppies !
Janis Bradley says
The most parsimonious interpretation seems to me to be weaning, in a situation where the mom can’t do the thing you usually see, which is just leaving. I’ve seen various experienced females who seem to give a sigh of aversion and just move away when any puppy approaches them! But framing this as “teaching” on her part seems a bit of a stretch, carrying the implication of intentionally modifying their behavior, And I would assume that weaning is always stressful for puppies, so that’s pretty much a non-starter. The response of the puppies is more interesting. It’s difficult not to read some social learning (specifically imitation) into the similarity of their responses of backing off and sitting or lying down. But that may be confirmation bias on my part as applying imitation learning to enhancing relationships between dogs and people is my current obsession. IAC, thanks for posting this–lots of food for thought.
Diane R says
The dams behavior, ESPECIALLY for a golden retriever is way extreme and frankly unacceptable
The puppies behavior tells me this is her normal behavior with them and them have learned to freeze to stop it
I amaFIRM BELIEVER that puppies must learn dog language skills, and that we must allow dams and even other family dogs to correct pups that overstep their bounds.
But
This is highly abnormally aggressive and way over the top, especially for her breed which is known to be “too permissive” of parents generally
I raise Rottweilers and even for this breed this behavior is unacceptable
(Rottweiler breeder 30+ years, trainer 34 years, rescue operator10 years- puppies are my speciality )
Grace says
Trisha, your “the milk bar is closed, and that, in addition, mom is pretty much done with motherhood and would like to get on with her day job” comment made me laugh out loud! And yes, I agree that Terriers (aka my Westies) are not as easily persuaded as Goldens.
I think the mom was doing a splendid job of teaching both “leave me alone” and “rushing me at the door is NOT the way to get in my good graces!!” Years ago, we had a golden/lab mix who had the most beautiful (albeit mutt) puppies. (They looked like black Irish Setters! Gorgeous…and it made us wonder WHO jumped over our fence to canoodle with the mom!) She was an outside dog, and she had an enormous house. She acted a lot like the mom in the video when it was time to close the milk bar. None of the puppies were adversely affected, from what we heard from the new puppy owners.
Heather rife says
This mom is teaching good manners to her pups. She never makes contact and never go es after the pups . The pups respond with respect… I have two videos where my terrier( gasp) lets the pups almost knock her over to nurse … the next week she is jumping away and growling… the pups understand for sure and I believe it raises dogs that understand a growl means enough!
martha says
I’m looking at this video I’m a very different light, more at the response of several of the puppies. how tenacious one is (behind her) how several definitely kept their distance..one who approached mum from the front … a number shook off the stress of the moment.
in my EXTREMELY INEXPERIENCED opinion I think this video gives a lot of insight to each puppy’s emotional maturity and how bold they might be as they mature?
I kept wondering which puppy I’d like to bring home,to train and have as a lifelong companion.
can this video predict response to voice and infliction from their humans?
just uneducated musings
I don’t mind at all what mum.is doing …smidges of temporary stress with soft attention after might possibly help increase a dogs resilience as they enter into their “Dog Life”.
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🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾
Melanie says
Your garden looks like one from a book – just beautiful.
My thoughts are just as Mary described: a mum at the end of her tether. Tired and sore after looking after so many energetic pups. I wish I had the ability to quiet one dog that easily, let alone that many.
Jean McCord says
My current litter was born 2/27. This behavior – dam and pups – looks totally normal to me! She has to be firm, especially with the persistent ones, or they’ll never stop latching their sharp little teeth onto her very sensitive teats. Just think of it – OUCH!!!
Pups aren’t crying or groveling, they’re just lying down. Good kids, well done!
Jamie Veraldi says
I have raised several litters of golden retrievers over 25 years. I have seen mom’s growl and snarl at their pups during weaning in every litter but I have never ever seen it at this intensity and for this duration. What concerns me besides the duration was she was still reacting with the same intensity for a pup just moving. What I have seen in my own litters after mom gives a clear message are the pups going about their business of playing and mom joining in usually laying flat on the ground. When a pup pushes and tries nurse which they inevitably would try to do, the reaction would be a warning bark and a leap away either back to her stomach or to her feet to end the play. Nothing I see about this moms overreaction and the pups response to it is what I would ever want to see in my lines.
Lynne Stott says
This is a mama trying to wean pups and cannot escape them because of the barrier gates (she needs to be able to leave the gated area). The warnings she gives are not extreme. The pups are learning. I think the only problem here is that the mama can’t leave the pups at will. A chair on each side of the gate would provide easy access in and out for only mama. She need a break.
Risë VanFleet says
Looks like pretty normal weaning to me. I’ve watched this process a few times, and with more persistent puppies. While the space is quite small I’ve seen this in a very large room where the puppies just followed the dam around, and she behaved pretty much the same. The key is that the dam is given some respite from the pups at this point.
As for teaching pups to be calm–it seems to be reading too much intent into mom. I think she is simply saying, “Nope, we are all done with that,” following her own biological agenda. While the pups do calm down, I think they are simply learning from this natural process. And yes to stress inoculation and resilience, first discussed extensively by Donald Meichenbaum a long time ago and supported by about 40 years of research since. (This does not mean we have to add in stress to our companion animals’ lives–we do enough of that as it is–but for these pups, it is provided by mother nature.) We do not need to protect our pups, or children, from all stress–we just need to keep it to a dull roar and as natural as possible.
Barb Stanek says
Talk about timing. My girl just finished with her last litter. At 7 weeks, the puppies were still insisting that they need her milk to survive. My Starshine felt otherwise. However, not having an argumentative bone in her body, Starry simply left the litter. They would trail after her if there was not fence between them. If there was a fence, they would jump on it to try to get to her. Starshine just walked (trot) away. She was never trapped in with the weaning puppies and their sharp teeth.
I see this mama dog’s behavior as moderate, especially considering that she can not get away from the puppies!! I would not have put the mom in with the puppies in a space that she could not escape from. Enough means enough, says the mom. Time to put on grown-up pants, puppies.
I too see these puppies as softer. Maybe this is not the first time that they have been with Mom when she’s free to express her desire to be done with feeding them? In any case, they don’t tend to push her on her decision. Given her clear “leave-me-alone” signals, perhaps she would make her feelings known more aggressively if they didn’t quit. Again, having her in a space with the puppies that she can not escapt from seems to me to be a bad idea.
I don’t see this as an effective way to teach the puppies to calm. When I was working with clients, one of the base line principles that I tried to help the clients to understand was the importance of working at the age level of their dogs. Just as one wouldn’t try to train brand new baby to walk, one might not want to teach a just-weaned puppy to calm down in the presence of the mom! Effective, age-appropriate tools for teaching a puppy to calm are out there. No need to stress the puppies or the mom any more than weaning already does.
Diane says
As a new puppy “mom”, I can relate to the dam. She didn’t respond at first.
She can’t get away (sometimes even with space you can’t get away from a persistent biting puppy). She just had enough. (Okay maybe a confession from me as I have gotten growly if my puppy is too much and nothing else is working!)
Lulu says
I agree with some of the statements above that mom needs a rest and possibly stressed and needs a break.
Joedy says
This is a GOLDEN RETRIEVER! This is NOT normal maternal behavior for any Golden Retriever!
Chris from Boise says
Fascinating! I love these behavior interpretation videos, and the comments they engender.
I’m completely ignorant about the weaning behavior of dams and puppies. But I second what a lot of commenters have said – this is a dam that has no easy escape from those demanding pups. I assume those teats are sore. It looks like a scene staged for the camera. It would be interesting to see a video of her given the opportunity to both enter and exit, and to see videos of the week before to see whether she started out with such aggressive corrections as weaning started.
Martin says
I’m way late with my comment, as usual. When I first read through the comments, I was a bit disturbed by the lack of consensus in interpretation, even amongst the breeders and trainers. Some say this is exemplary parenting, some average-everyday parenting, and some completely abnormal/unacceptable parenting. I had thought that the difference between the first two and the last category would be crystal clear amongst the experts. After all, how can anyone be sure they are only breeding behaviorally sound dogs when there is no clear understanding on what that even is?
So I spent the last few days thinking about why there’s so much disagreement.- Of course part of it is that this is just a short clip. I think it goes deeper, though.
Maybe it comes down to this: It’s impossible to know what “normal” is without a large sample size. I would say 100 dams would be the absolute bare minimum, and that only if they were randomly selected. Otherwise, the sample size would need to be much larger. And to know what effects the parenting has on the puppies, one would need to observe the entire parenting behavior plus have follow-ups on the puppies. Genetics, prenatal evetns, etc. could still throw in a wrench, but a large enough sample size would buffer that a bit.
But who in the world has actually seen 100 dams parent? Vets certainly see that many dams, but they only see a snapshot of behavior – and in a weird situation to boot. Certain types of shelters might also get enough dams, but those are all in a high-stress environment and might behave very differently from those from small-scale breeder homes. Large puppy mills may have that many dogs, but those, too, are not living in “normal” conditions and if anyone actually cared enough about dog welfare to carefully observe their behavior, they wouldn’t be running a puppy mill in the first place. I don’t know how many different dams a reputable breeder sees throughout their lifetime, but from what I know about dogs and from the numbers I saw in the comments, I doubt many see even a dozen, much less 100 – and often these dogs are not only all from the same breed, but closely related individuals to boot. I know some service dog organizations gather tons of information about their breeding programs. They tend to stick to certain breeds and definitely aim for particular traits, but they still seem the most likely to actually know what effect a certain parenting style has on puppies.
Still, I’m wondering: Does anyone actually know what normal parenting behavior in dogs is? Has anyone studied this, gathered enough information to draw a bell curve?