I’ve thought about intake interviews every day since someone wrote, “Yes, please tell us what you asked clients during an intake interview.” I don’t know why this question speaks to me so much, but perhaps it is because of my interest in human psychology. I’ve always said that my two favorite species are people and dogs, and although there are times that the people part of that equation challenge my affection, I still am equally fascinated by the species at both ends of the leash.
That might be why I’ve found myself thinking not so much about what I asked clients, but how I asked it. Honestly, the bare bones facts that you need are pretty straight forward (I’ll list them next week in Part II), but I’m going to argue that HOW you ask the questions is the key to a good interview.
Much of what I’m about to say is not a strategy that I carefully considered. It is just what I did, and in hindsight, I think that there were good reasons for it. Nor do I think it’s the perfect prescription for an intake interview; there are many roads to the top of the mountain. I am counting on the vast experience of our readers to add their wisdom and experience to this discussion. But here are some thoughts from me to get us started:
GREETING THE CLIENTS First impressions, right? Job one is to let people know you care about them. “Did you find the office without any trouble?” “Oh, such a long drive, can I get you some tea or coffee?” It seems so simple, but that doesn’t make it trivial. How many appointments have you had in which you were immediately asked to hand over your insurance card, or to give your birthdate? How did that feel? What a difference it makes if someone first inquires about YOU! If we expect clients to listen to us and take our advice, we need them to feel like we’re on their side. Let them know that right away. First things first. What could be more important?
GREETING THE DOG Our next job, immediately after asking about the client, is to focus on the dog. No matter what the dog is doing, how you feel about Scandinavian Tree Hugger Hounds or Ethiopian Rough-legged Dachshunds, or if the dog looks like the bad guy in a B movie who is about to pull the trigger, you have GOT to let the owners know that you care as much about their dog as you do them. This is easy for most of us, because we wouldn’t be doing consults if we didn’t care about dogs, right?
The trick is to respect what the dog is telling you (as in “…for the love of heaven do not approach me right now…”) while making it clear to the clients that you truly care about their dog. This can be tricky. I can’t tell you how many clients I have had who said “Oh, he’s fine, go ahead and pet him” while the dog lip licked, and whale eyed and did everything he could to pretend he wasn’t in the room, begging me with every possible visual signal to stay away, at least for now. The fact is, you have to respect both needs: The dog for space, and the owner’s need to have you interact with their dog. I’ll say something good about the dog first thing, even if it’s “What a gorgeous tail Ripper has!” Then I’ll explain that Ripper is telling me he’s a bit nervous—see how he keeps turning his head away from me and his mouth is closed up tight?”
This moment is a wonderful opportunity to start teaching owners how to read their dog, especially for subtle signals related to fear or anxiety. It’s also a fine time to exploit our tendency to be anthropomorphic. I had so many clients who were resistant to seeing their dog as fearful, but it helps when you couch the issue in human terms— “Would you want a hug from a stranger who was 10 feet tall before you even had a chance to get a good look at him?” But no matter what is going on, you have got to communicate to the owners that you don’t just love dogs in general, but that you are committed to getting to know and help their dog. Asking a list of questions about a dog’s medical history, diet and daily exercise isn’t going to do that. Whether you admire a dog’s tail or sit down on the floor and let him slobber all over you, make it clear to the owners (and the dog if you can) that you are establishing both a professional and a personal relationship.
WHAT’S THE PROBLEM? People want to tell you about the problem as soon as you’ll let them. Why not, that’s why they are there for; that’s what has kept them up at night worrying themselves sick. And yet, so many intakes I’ve seen start with details that might be important when we are designing a treatment plan (age, diet, daily routine), but feel like diversions to the client. How do you feel when the nurse or PA sits you down in the doctor’s office and asks you a gazillion questions, while focused on her computer screen? Valued? Taken care of? Feeling the love?
I found early on that clients are desperate to tell you what’s wrong. That’s why it’s my first question. “Why are you here?” “What’s going on?” “How can I help you?” Pick your favorite phrase, but let them tell you what the behavior problem is before asking anything else. Otherwise, you are just frustrating them and losing an opportunity to communicate that you are on their side.
BE PATIENT An answer to this question can take five seconds, or a half an hour. Usually it takes several minutes, because any answer needs clarification. “He’s aggressive to other dogs” leads, as you well know, to a discussion about what dogs, where, and what “aggressive” means. If there are two people in the room (or more), be sure to ask everyone, because they often have different experiences with the same dog (not to mention different perspectives).
KNOW YOUR ABCs Now is the time to thank behavior analysts like Dr. Susan Friedman, who remind us that the key to changing a behavior is to understand its Antecedent (some people call them “triggers”), the exact, actual Behavior, and the Consequences of the behavior. First, what happens right before the problem behavior occurs, or, what is the Antecedent event? I asked clients “If I promised you a $100 if you could get the dog to do X right now, what would you do?” That gives me a good idea of what triggers the behavior, which will be critical information when I was designing a treatment plan.
Next, what exactly is the Behavior that is problematic? As I noted earlier, it can take some time to get a good, detailed picture of what’s going on. “He goes crazy at the door” is only helpful if you know what “goes crazy” means. After several years, I learned that asking people to “be a video for me and describe exactly what I would be seeing when visitors come” is an effective way to get a good description. Of course, seeing it yourself as the visitor, or watching a video is much better than a verbal description, but you don’t always have that option.
Finally, what is the Consequence of the behavior, or what happens immediately afterward? Does the dog achieve an increase in distance between it and another dog if she barks aggressively on the street? Does growling by a nervous dog result in a withdrawn hand? In other words, what is reinforcing the behavior? Something is, or by definition, it wouldn’t be happening, right?
In addition to getting clear on the ABCs, I’ve found it essential to get a good chronological history of the problem. You can ask when it first started and work up to the present, but I’ve found it most useful to start with the most recent incident and work backward. That way you can discuss what is fresh in the client’s mind, and work your way back in time. Working back one incident at a time also seems to help jump start people’s memories, and often I’d have clients say “Oh! Wait! I forgot… do you remember that Ripper was attacked at the dog park the week before he began growling there?”
WHAT DOES SUCCESS LOOK LIKE? This question is as important as the ones above. It is also one that often surprises the client. I don’t need to tell this group that you can’t stop X behavior without deciding on what you want to replace it with. But it is exactly what many dog owners haven’t yet thought about. “I just want him to stop X!” they say, without having pictured what they’d like the dog to do. This is one of my favorite parts of the interview, because it is where you can begin to provide a path to what will make both the owners and the dog happy.
OBSERVATIONS OF THE CLIENTS This is another critical part of the interview. While you’re talking to the client(s), what is happening? If it’s a couple, how are they seated? Are they facing away from each other and never look at each other’s faces? Is the single owner in your office unable to keep his hands off her dog? Does one spouse continually tell the dog to stop exploring the office, lie down and stay put? All of this should have a significant impact on how to talk to the owner(s) and what kind of treatment plan you suggest. (I’ll talk about that more next week.)
OBSERVATIONS OF THE DOG Wait? Isn’t this about the dog? Have I forgotten the dog? Nope, honest. While all this talking is going on I’m watching the dog. If it is safe, (as in, I’m not about to be mutilated), I ask the owner to let the dog off leash as soon as the door to my office is closed. You can learn so much a about a dog, and his relationship with his owner if you give him the freedom to make his own choices. Does he avoid me? Fine, that provides a lot of information. Sniff the carpet obsessively for 10 minutes? That’s useful too. The only exception, of course, is if my internal red flags start waving, and I think the dog needs to be restrained for my own safety. That didn’t happen very often, because I’m pretty darned good at avoiding a confrontation with a dog, but when it did I didn’t hesitate to say something like: “Ripper and I don’t seem to be comfortable with each other. Would you put his leash back on for now? That way Ripper can relax while we can focus on talking.” Notice there’s no blame going around—just a simple request that will allow me to focus on something besides my own tender flesh.
Of course, if the dog enters the lobby with a tense mouth and body, and goes out of his way to look directly at my face with eyes as hard as obsidian, I’m not going to suggest that the dog comes off leash right away once we enter my office. Not until he begins to soften, and also not until the owner is comfortable letting the dog off. If the owner says “I’d rather keep him on leash,” we absolutely must respect that, even if the dog is a melted puddle of Christmas carmel and is begging us to pet his belly. Our job is to make the owner comfortable, not to impress him or her.
BE FUNNY IF YOU CAN I say that in all seriousness. I can’t emphasize enough how nervous people are when they come to talk to you the first time. The more relaxed they are, the more they will remember, the more honest they’ll be, and the more open they will be to taking your suggestions. However, if you can’t channel your inner stand up comedian, don’t try to fake it. Your clients will see through that in a microsecond. However, you could say “This is when I want to say something funny to lighten things up, but I’m never gonna be able to quit my day job to be a comedian. I can’t even remember any good jokes. But I do care deeply about helping you and Ripper, and I have some ideas for you that might help a lot.” Mission accomplished. You HAVE lightened things up, and just increased the empathy quotient in the room up to high.
Didn’t I write a post recently titled “Less is More?” Uh, yeah, that was me. And here I am, going on and on… And yet, there is still so much I want to say. I’ve decided to continue this until next week, when I’ll write about the next phase of the interview, including my list of background questions, working with the dog, and talking to the clients about a treatment plan.
Jump in! I would love to hear from you regarding your experiences from either side, whether client or consultant. I know that your comments will help us all do a better job, and look forward to reading them.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: We spent a lovely weekend at a friend’s log cabin north of Port Washington. We left the BC’s with a farm sitter (thank you Heather!) and took Tootsie with us. I thought it would be nice for Toots to have some time just us three, but in hind sight I think her traveling days are over. We don’t know how old she is, definitely well over 12, and she seems so much more fragile to me than when we got her 5.5 years ago. Hardest on her was our time by the fireplace in the cabin. Jim and I loved it, but I had to build her a cave made of pillows so that she could sleep beside me on the couch (nothing else would do, she is very much a momma’s girl), but be out of sight of the fire.
Neither was she crazy about the beautiful snow. While we enjoyed its beauty on Sunday morning, she made it clear that all she wanted was to get in the car and get warm and cozy again.
However, here are two dogs who thought the snow was just great. Willie and Maggie played tug in the snow until their sides were heaving. The photo below isn’t as sharp as I’d like, but I love the flow of it.
I love how beautiful it is with fresh snow on the ground. And thank heavens for the blanket of snow–it’s going to be well under zero degrees Farenheit in a few days, and my poor bulbs had begun to sprout during our ridiculously warm November. Their tender shoots are right below the ground’s surface, so I’m glad there is some insulation to protect them. Here the snow decorates one of the huge white oak trees up the hill. So beautiful!
xxx
Bruce says
Trisha, thank you very much for describing your intake interviews. I have done a lot of accident investigations in my career and the approach sounds surprisingly familiar.
Specifically, greeting the client (“How are you doing, were you hurt?”), establishing rapport (“I am here to help, not to assign blame”), respecting the person (“How do YOU think we can prevent this from happening again?”), observing carefully (including body language), getting a good chronological history, and then getting the facts from multiple sources if possible. Amazing how often different people tell different stories, or at least different aspects of the larger story.
And you are absolutely right that a little humor can go a long way.
Most of my canine “consulting” consists of informal conversations with acquaintances, at the dog park, etc. I have found it very useful to listen, observe, and ask open-ended questions before offering an opinion. Not infrequently, after listening I decide that keeping my own counsel is the most prudent course of action.
Sorry to hear that Tootsie does not like the cold and snow. Our first cold snap has the dogs continually lobbying to frolic outside. The Sammy is well-insulated but I remain pleasantly surprised at how much nearly-bald Red Dog loves the winter cold.
Kat says
It was fascinating reading your descriptions and comparing it to the intake interview we had when finding a trainer for Finna our psycho bitch from hell. After the initial phone interview basics we were asked to bring the whole family for the first meeting. Since Finna’s greeting to our wonderful trainer was essentially hello, I’d like to kill you it was a somewhat strained meeting but looking back I remember every nice thing that was said about Finna, (she’s clearly bonded to you, she’s not concerned by her image in the mirror, that’s good, and wow, she’s fast she just grabbed that fly on the wing) and I remember how gently the trainer told us that “not all dogs can be saved,” as well as the sense that we passed the trainer’s personal test when our response was “we understand that it isn’t always possible to save every dog but living with her we see enough in her that we want to try.” I don’t remember anything else about the interview with any clarity but those few things stay with me.
None of those positive statements about our definitely dangerous dog were really affirming. She’s really bonded to you was in response to the fact that anytime the trainer looked at me Finna growled at her. She’s not reactive to her reflection, in retrospect actually translated as she’s not simply insane so that’s hopeful. And praise for Finna’s ability to snatch a fly out of the air really wasn’t relevant to any treatment plan or anything it just acknowledged her athletic ability. But each one of those statements told me our trainer was looking at our dog, paying attention to our dog, and finding something of value in our dog. By doing that she made a connection with us that enabled us to trust her to help our profoundly damaged dog.
Finna remains a work in progress but the ground work we laid with our trainer means we can continue to make progress. Some of the behavior I’m not fond of we choose to live with (the mad excitement and bouncing around when getting ready to go for a walk, for example–it’s funny the instant I get my hand on her collar she’s calm and cooperative it’s just trying to judge when it’s safe to reach for the collar without having that very hard head slam into my hands or head) and some we continue to work on.
Frances says
I recognise the look on Tootsie’s face – it is some time since my dogs experienced snow, but I get something extremely similar from Sophy the papillon when I ask her to get out of the car with the encouragement that “it’s not raining all that hard”! These days I keep not only towels and a stack of warm blankets in the car, but a hot water bottle too…
Nina Mazuz says
Oh, I SO agree with how important it is to make a positive observation about the dog at the first meeting! Even when our dogs are problematic, we love them to pieces and so much want other people to recognize what “special snowflakes” they are, right? 🙂
We have a wonderful trainer we’ve worked with with our current and previous dog. I actually met him randomly with our previous dog in a dog park, where he was working with another client and her puppy. My dog approached them, and the very first thing he said was something like, “Oh, she has such a nice, gentle, submissive manner in how she approaches….” Which was totally true, and also completely melted my heart because it was such a contrast to the reaction of the first trainer I’d seen. My sweet, gentle, submissive dog had started alarm barking when people came into our home, and that first trainer’s response had been to make jokes about my dog being mean and “killer”–and frankly, that offended me. So when I met that second trainer, I signed him up practically on the spot, because I liked his positive attitude. And he turned out to be waaaaay more successful at pinpointing the dog’s issues (she was worried and needed reassurance–not at all aggressive) and resolving them practically overnight.
Anita says
It’s quite fascinating how stories unfold when you ask questions like, what did you do before this happened? Or What did the child/person do before this happened? What dit you do when this happened? What did Chubby do before this happened? It is so true, the story behind the story is more important than the actual story itself.
Pat says
Trisha, we brought our psycho Dalmatian to you back in 1995 or thereabouts. I believe you said he was a ten out of ten in reactivity to sight, sound, motion and something else. From the moment we walked in you were gracious, kind, understanding and professional. The dog, Bishop, was from a backyard breeder and we got him at 8 months. He was never socialized and lived in cages outside until we got him. He was terrified of everything, including my husband. Our goal, which you asked that first meeting, was for my husband to be able to interact with him. We learned so much from you and Bishop. You even had my husband and Bishop out to your farm to try some training, something equine you were experimenting with I believe. I was very jealous! You told us honestly that it would take a lot of work and there were no quick fixes. After about two years of “everything good in life comes from my husband” my husband touched him for the first time. Everything became easier after that. It was very hard work but well worth it. Bishop was never normal but he became a good dog and beloved member of our pack. We owe his happy life to you. A bit late but we sincerely thank you.
P. S. I’m still annoyed that your show on WPR was cancelled. That’s how we found you.
Gayla says
I think I’m fairly good, – not great, – at reading dogs. But believe I’m actually good at reading people… So one of my biggest challenges is how to make both people feel valued when I’m looking at a couple with conflicting views, and my opinions align with one and not the other. Not always, but the majority of the time, that situation is further complicated by the ‘gender factor.’
Tricia says
The human part is usually the most critical part. Make them comfortable, make them realize that you have problems with your dogs’ behaviors too. Lead them to see the dog without hitting them over the head or getting defenses up. Humor helps them to relax. If, at a shelter, take them and dog for a walk while you talk, and mostly LISTEN. Get them away from front counter with eyes upon them.
The human part is usually the most critical part! Did I already say that?
Karen Conell says
We ask what seems like a million questions. but in a conversation. Digging deeper until finally, there is a detail that reveals /clue that is an “Aha” moment. I feel like a detective at times! Clients leave out stuff that is embarrassing or that they think reflects poorly on them as pet parents. I really spend time chatting and sharing my own successes and failures. ultimately I take the leash from the frustrated, worn out owner and do a simple “heel”, sit, “wait” or “look”.
Even dogs that have had no training respond to a calm, but clear command. I like to show the owners that the dog can “do it” and we will show them how to do it also! We see plenty of rescues and I always want to give these people hope and to not return a dog to shelter before working with us. We don’t handle aggression cases but many Rescues, 2nd Hand, confused, scared, timid, or just plain spoiled ! I feel it’s our responsibility to handle all the clients/dogs as individuals and that can’t happen without great communication and information. Thank you Tricia, for the inspiration to keep handling dogs and people for 21+ years!
Karen says
As a client with a reactive dog, I think this is exactly it. I can’t believe how blessed we are to have a trainer who genuinely cares and sees this caring, validating, soothing, listening, and cheerleading as an integrated and generously offered part of her job. It takes amazing skill to pull this off well, and inspires me to try to be more generous in offering some of the same things in my own profession.
And this part of her work with us has been at least as important as all the highly skilled doggy problem solving with Reactive Rottie….perhaps more so, since reading great books can partially substitute for the problem solving part.
Seriously, you all deserve more money.
Christy Paxton says
Love this topic. One of my favorite lead-ins, even if I have to studiously avoid interacting with the dog, is to say “Geez, I don’t know why you wanted him; he’s not cute or anything.” I also like to give a fun label to his personality: “He’s kind of a goofball, isn’t he?” or “She seems like a tender heart.”
When talking about the problem behavior, I ask, “And when he does that, what do you do?”
Finally, before concluding the formal part, I inquire if there is anything else they’d like to tell me.
Oh, yes, and I like to become the dog and give (funny) voice to her thoughts. It relaxes everyone, including me!
Sparky Smith says
I love the question on success. As a retired strategist and change executive for people, I am now a certified Canine Behaviorist and relatively new in the field of Dog Behaviour consulting. I apply a lot of my work with shifting people’s mindset to help support the change in both the caregivers and their dogs. You added new questions to my toolbox (thank you), and here are two additional/similar questions I ask: 1. What does the ideal future relationship look like for you and your dog and what time frame are you expecting this to happen, and 2. How will we know we have been successful (quantifiably and quantitatively metrics). Question 2 would look like: 100% no nipping, doesn’t pull me during our walks. Both allow me to set expectations and be able to measure our progress towards our goals. – Thanks for the great article.
Kim kuenlen says
My intake interviews start with a detailed questionnaire
People at this point aren’t asking me for help….they want to give up on their dog.
After I read their questionnaire I call the folks to see if there might be a way that they can keep their dog.
Only once in 15 years of rescuing Aussies did someone change her mind and use my recommendations. She called me a year or so later to thank me.
Jenny H says
Thinking of the clients that I have had – I think I had MANY more ‘problem people’ that problem dogs.
Some couples I really did want to recommend counselling for them.
One dog I saw I really, really wanted to tell the woman she should keep the dog and surrender the child 🙁
Trisha says
To Jenny H: Ah, yes, well. Humans. I always could tell when I was tired because I’d start working the dog myself (for too long) rather than teaching the client to do it. It takes a lot of compassion and a big heart to do this work. Even if you love people (an iron clad requirement for the job), sometimes it does require taking a breath. Whenever that happened to me I’d try to remember a time when I must have driven someone trying to teach me crazy (can you spell IT consultant?). That always helped! The few times I ran out of compassion I’d take a break. (But yes, I did advise counseling for some clients, what they needed was far above my pay grade.)
To Bruce and Sparky: I love hearing about intake interviews from different fields. So much the same when working with people who need something, isn’t there? Love the question from Sparky about “what time frame”.. I never asked that but would add it to any repertoire, because so often the client’s expectations were initially unrealistic.
Trisha says
To Pat: Thank you so much for your kind comments about our work together. And I remember your dog! You are simply wonderful to working so hard with him, it’s a testament to dedication. I’m so happy that in some small way I could help.
Chloe De Segonzac says
Thank you so much!
Vicki in Michigan says
Trisha, thank you for all you do for people and dogs. I am sure you are pushing humanity’s karma balance in a positive direction. Thank you.
Barb Stanek says
Thank you, Trish, for posting this! Great insights. All of us who do this work should probably review these thoughts before every interview!
Beth says
How can it be that you’ve had Tootsie 5.5 years?!?! It seems only two, tops!
I love that you explain how you ask the owner what success would look like. The best dog-training advice I ever heard (maybe it was one of your books? I can’t recall) was that it’s so much easier to teach a dog to DO something than to STOP doing something. I take a deep breath and remind myself of this every time Jack gets super-excited by walks in fresh snow and forgets his leash manners and starts darting this way and that, threatening to trip me up or make me slip. My very human response is to want to say STOP IT!!! but I remind myself to put a smile in my voice (that comes from my years of working with the public) and ask him to either “heel” or “wait…. easy…..” depending on the situation. The hardest part isn’t getting my very willing and responsive dog to behave. The hardest part is getting over my primate anger at his being silly and my desire to just make something stop.
And I, too, have found that gentle humor is the most successful way to present something that might otherwise cause defensiveness in my fellow humans. So much easier in person than online!