We all know that different breeds of dogs elicit different perceptions about their personalities from the general public: Border Collies are all “smart,” and Golden Retrievers are all “friendly.” These perceptions are sometimes based on facts that are generally true. Border Collies are indeed often clever, and many Golden Retrievers are extremely friendly. However, we all also know that, although, breed stereotypes often have some basis of truth in them, they are just as often incorrect. For a number of years, I saw more Golden Retrievers for biting than any other breed, even though other breeds were as well represented in the local pet population.
We all know that different breeds of dogs elicit different perceptions about their personalities from the general public: Border Collies are all “smart,” and Golden Retrievers are all “friendly.” These perceptions are sometimes based on facts that are generally true. Border Collies are indeed often clever, and many Golden Retrievers are extremely friendly. However, we all also know that although breed stereotypes often have some basis of truth in them, they are often incorrect. For a number of years, I saw more Golden Retrievers for biting than any other breed, even though other breeds were as well represented in the local pet population. I’ve met a couple of Border Collies who appeared to be as intelligent as earthworms.
These stereotypes don’t just apply to positive traits like intelligence and friendliness: the general public attributes negative traits to some breeds, perceiving Miniature poodles, for example, to be foolish and mindless little dogs. At least that is the impression I get when I hear people talk about small poodles, when in my experience, they are smart as whips. Perhaps no breed elicits more stereotypical responses from the public than one of the bully breeds. Recent research by Lisa Gunter, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, presented at IFAAB in San Diego, (and soon to be presented at ISAZ) confirmed that people rated photos of a Labradors and a Border Collie as significantly “friendlier, approachable and adoptable” than a pit-bull type dog. All the dogs in the photos, by the way, had relaxed, “friendly” expressions on their face. The subjects (228 people) also rated the pit-bull type dog as higher on “aggressiveness” than the other two breeds. None of this is particularly surprising, given the public’s perception of bully breeds in general. Another study by Protopopova et al also found a negative perception of pit-type breeds (2012 on line): they found that teaching dogs to gaze into potential adopter’s eyes had no effect on rates of adoption, while breed, size, surrender versus stray, and location in the kennel did. “Fighting and Sporting breed” dogs stayed at the shelter longest, while “ratters and lap breeds” stayed the least amount of time. (Side note: Research related to adoptability of breeds and public perceptions about them brings up some interesting and important questions about breed-related predispositions of a number of breeds–not just pit-type dogs. Are any breed stereotypes valid? Both positive and negative? What are the comfort levels in the field about discussing them? This discussion deserves its own post, so I’ll write about that in another article.)
Here is what is most important about Lisa Gunter’s work: After the initial results that rated the dogs of three breeds, subjects were asked to rate the same photo of the pit-bull type dog while sitting beside a variety of people. The subjects were asked to make the same ratings about the dog while sitting beside a young child, an elderly woman, a “rough” male, (the pits) and an “active male,” and a woman in a wheel chair (the BC and Lab). Sure enough, pairing a young child or an elderly woman beside the pit-type dogs changed people’s rating of them. Sitting beside a young child increased the perceptions of the dog’s intelligence, friendliness and adoptability, while decreasing the predictions of “training difficulties and aggressiveness”. Significant changes were found in increased friendliness and decreased aggressiveness. The “rough male” photograph actually decreased the subject’s perception of the dog as friendly, but increased their perception of the dog as intelligent, and the elderly woman had the strongest effect on adoptability. (The “rough male” finding is perhaps the least relevant to applying these results to increasing adoptability of dogs on websites, but I find it interesting. Especially since we joked at IFAAB that the male didn’t look at that “rough” to us. I thought he was sorta hot… just saying.)
Here is the photo of the pit-type dog used in the study:
Here is the same dog beside a child and an “elderly” woman (who looks to be in great shape to me!):
Ideally, some of the variables would have been controlled: same photo of dog, standing versus sitting, etc, but the work does a good job of showing definitively that a particular dog can look more attractive to viewers depending on the photo, and that placement beside a particular type of person appears to have a strong effect.
The practical implications for this are huge, and not just related to any one breed. What this research has shown (along with a similar study by Walsh et al on Labradors, German Shepherd Dogs and Airedales) is that the details of dog’s photograph, say in Petfinders or on a Humane Society website, could have a profound effect on how the dog is perceived, and potentially whether it is adopted or not. We’ve all known (or assumed) that a sharp, clear, color photo of a friendly-looking dog increases a dog’s chance of being adopted, but this research adds an entirely new wrinkle to the mix. Could one increase a dog’s chance of being adopted by showing a photo of it sitting beside a child? Of course, this study didn’t look at actual adoptions, and there is a chance that a perception of friendliness and adoptability won’t translate into more adoptions, but it surely would increase the odds. Kudos for Gunter and Walsh for doing the research they did; I hope it leads to even more studies that expand our understanding that most complex and compelling of topics: the relationship between people and dogs.
I’d love to hear your take on this: What drew you to the dog(s) you have now? Did you find the dog on a website and were drawn to a particular photograph? If so, do you know why?
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: Busy times, beginning to get ready for lambing, even though the ground is still frozen solid and we still live in a sea of white. But tomorrow we’ll be mucking out the barn (with the help of some young, strong neighbors, bless them) and I’ll be ordering lambing supplies. The first due date is April 1st, and that is going to come up fast. Usually there is green grass by then, but the chances of that seem to be slight at this point, winter is just not letting go this year.
Willie and I said the heck with winter and worked the sheep up in the high pasture yesterday, it being light enough after I got back from teaching to do so because of the time change. The snow was a bit deep in places, but we moved the girls slowly and I don’t think it stressed them in the least. As a matter of fact, I suspect they need the exercise. Willie and I had a great time, and I’d bet the farm that when we trotted down the farm road to the barn, through the grey-brown and inky black tree trunks, his high tail and head signified something akin to pride.
Before mucking out the barn I’ll go to my Contemplative Photography class. This week’s assignment was on texture. Here is some of my ‘homework,’ taken at a friend’s chicken house when I went to pick up fresh eggs (Thank you Sandi!)
Marilyn Kircus says
This reminds me of a totally wrong stereotype on two dogs. Once, while training a beginning obedience class, one member, a twelve year old boy, was going to have to give his doberman up because his parents had to move into an apartment while waiting for their house to be finished. I volunteered to keep the dog for the duration. She was afraid of men and tried to run from them. My dog was a white standard poodle who was very protective of me.
Before class started, I had my dog on a down and was working with the dob. There was a body shop next door and one of the black guys stuck his head in and watched me work for a minute. Then he said, “that’s one of those killer dogs”. The dob was saying, “please don’t hurt me”, while the sweet faced white standard poodle was saying, ” just let me get him!” Pretty amusing but also so sad that many people can’t communicate with dogs, and only see them through a dark glass of stereotypes.
I enjoy reading your blog and am working on my own attitudes about dogs. I’ve been taking my friend’s dog to a dog park and am getting much more comfortable with meeting big bully dogs. Yesterday we met a lab who was pretty scared of the other dogs. My tiny springer spaniel picked up on it at once and started chasing him. He came and sat on my feet for protection.
Dana Terry says
I LOVE this article!! I am not only a dog trainer but a pet photographer so I will have to use that when working with shelter dogs (after testing them of course.) I also have chickens and works with lots of aggression issues in my business. I also work with numerous dogs on being able to live with chickens. My father was a hunting dog trainer so I grew up with all types of dogs. My current breeds are Bouvier des Flandres (I work in AKC obedience and IPO/Schutzhund) using only motivation training. My 14 year old daughter owner/trainer/handled her own dog to 3rd Place at our Working North American Bouvier Nationals. I also have rescue terriers (Rat Terriers and Jack Russell’s) I love all breeds, and ironically my worst bite came from a Yorkie! My daughter lived her entire live with an extremely aggressive protective Bouvier who just passed away a few months ago at nearly 16 years old. He was a management case and I loved him dearly (I would not want another like him) but I learned so much from him. He never so much as gave an eye to my daughter and she learned to crawl and walk beside of him. Most people would have put him down by the time he was 2 years old. It was not a good breeding and he was insecure aggressive but wanted to be dominate. I taught her to respect his space and learn from his body postures. I was lucky that he was an incredible obedience dog and used that for control. In 16 years the dog never got anything for free, but I feel he was truly happy with his life. I currently own a 3 year old male Bouvier (another issue case) that is afraid of other dogs….even stuffed animal ones. He because aggressive out of fear, but is doing great in his training.
lec says
Thanks so much, once again, for your keen insight. We have 2 adult male Basenji. We chose this breed because of their size, because they are an active breed (we are runners and take them with us), and because they are low maintenance with regards to grooming. They are not, however low maintenance with regards to management of their personality. Though they are 12 now, it’s still like having a couple of 3 year old children in the house. They are smart, mischievous, cunning and require constant supervision. Before we considered the breed, we did our due diligence, or at least we thought we did. All the Googling in the world can’t prepare you for the amount of work this breed is, particularly when you have one that is fear-reactive. We thought we wanted a particular breed so that it would be well documented what the general personality and health risks would be. Our 2 boys are polar opposite personalities and have altogether completely different health issues. If I had to do it all over again, head straight to the local shelter. Lesson learned.
jennifer says
My husband and I adopted Agnes the pitbull mix pictured here: https://twitter.com/jennifershiman/status/272235813813760001/photo/1 from Pasadena Humane Society 3 years ago. We discovered her via their website. They had a video of a staff member interacting with her, talking about how she was a very nice girl who took treats gently, etc. A big priority was to find a very affectionate dog. So we went to meet her at the shelter, and she came to us for attention and petting, leaned into us, and we felt like we had established a connection with her and that she showed interest in us. Versus another dog we met who couldn’t have cared less whether we were there; that dog was just glad to be out in the communal yard. Thus we brought Agnes home, and despite many other challenges (allergies, IBD, scavenging, reactivity), aggression toward people or dogs simply has not been one. She is one in a million and is my heart dog.
Erin James says
Great texture photos!
Thinking about how people percieve bully breeds in particular, I’ve noticed that often ‘rough’ looking guys will put prong collars or studded collars on their bully dogs. It seems to me that collars like that send a message, one that implies the dog is mean. I’ve worked (as a volunteer trainer in the local SPCA) with quite a few pit bulls and pit mixes and find them wonderfully smart and almost easy to train. So, I really hate to see how some of the owners perpetuate the stereotype that they are mean dogs by decking them out in that type of collar.
Pocket Pittie in the City says
Having two pitties, we see the stereotypes play out all the time. We have had people cross the street so they don’t walk near our dogs. Like many other pittie advocates out there, we dress them up so they’re more approachable and friendly looking (they don’t mind the clothes, otherwise, we wouldn’t do it). They have “snoods” for the winter and sweatshirts too. There’s nothing that says “I swear I’m sweet” better than a doggie hoodie. We ended up adopting Maggie from the shelter because she stared straight into my eyes through the cage and was just begging to be rescued. Turns out that she is leash reactive (she wants to play, not angry-like) so we’re working on helping her become a good ambassadog. The two of them are as cuddly as can be though!
Jen says
I didn’t adopt, but I must say that appearance and intelligence is what drew me to the Doberman breed. I’m kind of a statistical anomaly, I guess, because I like black dogs, and I like big dogs.
The pictures of the pit type dog used in the study made me think (in first one) that she was perhaps overweight. In the picture next to the kid, it looked to me like she had to pee 😀
Lisa W says
Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with her training methods, there is no denying that the late Vicki Hearne was a great writer. She wrote a fascinating book on breed, literature, and racial stereotype/bias, in her book, Bandit. I think it was written in the 80s, and the things the state of Connecticut made her do to save the life of a bully breed dog owned by an elderly black man is astounding (this was before so many states and cities adopted breed bans). To me, it’s a must read.
There is so much to say about breed stereo types, but I will stick to your question of “What drew you to the dog(s) you have now? Did you find the dog on a website and were drawn to a particular photograph? If so, do you know why?”
Of the two dogs we have now, one was rescued by a relative from her first owner, who kept her in a crate 24/7 and whose boyfriend was threatening the dog’s life. One of our dogs had just passed, and so we decided we could take on a dog with no socialization or training or knowledge other background. We didn’t really decide, we just said, yes. 🙂 She is a goofy, peacenik-of-a-dog that was also one of the hardest dogs I have had the pleasure of working with, until we got our second dog!
Our second dog was a long-distance adoption after seeing her photo on the internet. I thought I did my due diligence (looking back, I was so naïve it’s almost embarrassing), but as someone said, the internet has a way of creating a false and much better reality than what might actually be true. The “rescue” we got her from has since had all their dogs confiscated for unhealthy and unsafe conditions; they were more like rescue hoarders. Here is a link to her picture as posted in the website: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ubBeA7ac4pNz7HIi4ayj6IElorE1o5rrWcbHbeqsUcg?feat=directlink
Her picture captured me and didn’t let me go.
Am I sorry? No, we love her to pieces and can’t imagine living without her, and we have also had 3 years of steep learning curves, lots of vet and behaviorist time and bills, and we are all still learning a lot. It was a bias that spoke to me about what I imagined a dog that looked like that would be like.
Beth with the Corgis says
I picked my own dogs by carefully studying a breed book, rating all the dogs based on a scoring system in the front of the book, finding the breed that best matched our lifestyle, going through the breed club to find a breeder, meeting that breeder and her dogs, getting HER recommendation for another breeder (since she had no litters planned), having several hour-long conversations with the breeder to let her know just what we were looking for, and then letting her pick the puppy that best suited us.
For the second dog, we started out going back to the same breeder, intending to get a puppy. We then met an adult of the same breed that was available and met her. We all decided she was too mellow for us, but then had the chance to meet another adult and her energy level and temperament suited our needs and so we brought her home.
We had a fairly demanding list of requirements for a dog and so we took the path that was most likely to lead to success. We wanted dogs who enjoyed hiking, frisbee, maybe some agility but didn’t need hours of running to be happy. We wanted dogs that were good with dogs, cats, kids. Dogs that would not be prone to separation anxiety. Dogs that were not over 40 pounds. Dogs that did not need intensive grooming or trimming, nor need to wear coats in the cold or the rain.
So many dogs end up being surrendered because the owner didn’t realize what they were getting into. I do wish more people did their homework before getting a dog. People see a lovely 5 year old mellow boxer and get one not realize that most adolescent boxers are high energy bouncers that tend to wreck the place until they get mature enough to remember their manners. Someone meets a lovely BC at a herding trial who is worked for hours every week and is lying quietly at its owner’s feet, and brings one home to find it running circles in the house. Someone gets a cute terrier not knowing it will terrorize the cat. And so on. Which is why I think it’s important to point out that all dogs are individuals, but also that if you are getting a young dog a good idea of breed history will give you an idea of what to expect, and if you can’t deal with those breed traits you should find a different dog. Too many people pick dogs based on how they look, when energy, biddability, shedding levels, barking levels, and comfort level with new people are much more important.
I always find this particular path of conversation ends up going in directions that make me uncomfortable. It IS true that people make generalizations about breeds that don’t always end up being true. It’s also true that many of the generalizations are typical of the breed, though, and we ignore them at our own peril. And if they are NOT typical of the breed, then what purpose does selective breeding serve? Yes there are dogs of any breed that will not be what we thought they would be. But you are unlikely to breed two Jack Russells and get a 50 pound dog with a long silky coat who likes to lay on the couch all day and has no interest in chasing balls, for instance.
Many pitties are perfectly lovely with people. But many pitties (and other terriers, but most other terriers except Airedales are small and can’t do much damage to a bigger dog) are NOT good with other dogs. And that’s perfectly ok as long as people are aware of that. Posing dogs with people to make them more adoptable is very acceptable IF the poses are a good representation of what the dog is really like. One of the most prominent pit bull rescue groups out there says pittie owners should really carry a break stick and know how to use it. That warning is not given for nothing. Unlike most dogs which snap and release, pit bulls and other terriers will bite and hold in a fight.
That said, many of the dogs labeled as pit mixes in shelters probably have no pit bull in them at all. A boxer/lab mix could easily give you a similar look. Or throw in a hound with blue coloring and some sort of other bully breed and it can easily look like a pit bull. With mixes, one never knows what is in there. So guessing at heritage can be interesting, but unless one or both of the parents are known it’s really difficult to say.
Beth with the Corgis says
I also wanted to comment quickly on this: “However, we all also know that although breed stereotypes often have some basis of truth in them, they are often incorrect. For a number of years, I saw more Golden Retrievers for biting than any other breed, even though other breeds were as well represented in the local pet population. ”
That tends to happen with any breed that gets very popular, because a lot of people who are mostly interested in making money start breeding with no regard for the health or temperament of the parents. Any breed has a certain range of behaviors along a spectrum, and there is a fine line between a soft, submissive dog and a fear-bighter for instance. The same thing has happened with cocker and springer spaniels. Because they are soft and submissive, they frequently give very little warning when they do snap; one brief hard stare is the extent of it.
So Goldens are SUPPOSED to be friendly and cheerful, but there are a lot of not-so-carefully bred ones out there who are anything but.
With breeds that are not quite so popular, you tend to see more true fanciers doing the breeding, and the dogs tend to better match the temperament that the breed is supposedly known for.
hakirby says
My nana had a golden lab who was terrified of water and wouldn’t retrieve anything but wasps. my neighbour’s border collie is terrified of sheep. She was born on a sheep farm, which makes it even funnier.
Jennifer Wall says
We saw Jess on the rescue centre website and it was a lovely picture of her looking very happy and relaxed. She seemed right for us straight away. The rescue had her labelled simply as a mix although I could see she was part staffordshire bull terrier. We had her dna tested which said she also had some german shepherd and a couple of other breeds thrown in. She looks like a mini shepherd but with the staffie smile. We also have a springer spaniel and people will usually fuss him and ask about him while completely ignoring Jess. If I mention that she is part staffie they usually pull a face and say something like “oh they’re nasty aren’t they”. I also notice people looking at her then me to see if I look like a typical staffie owner. It doesn’t help that she can be leash reactive, people assume it is simply because she is part staffie. You do beed to be pretty thick skinned most of the time.
Lori Merriam says
Throughout my dogless childhood and early adulthood I could not have a dog, but loved reading and researching all things about them.
After my first dog, a corgi, developed DM and had to be put down, I adopted an older corgi-shepherd mix. Within six months that dog also developed signs of DM. No more corgis, at least for awhile.
I’m now with a Sealyham Terrier pup. The breed description of “couch potato of the terrier world” and “happy, clown-like personality” were big draws for me. I wanted an indoor/outdoor dog of moderate exercise needs that would be happy in my small urban house, fit into my small car, and would be easy on my modest paycheck. Look again at the illustrations of Maurice Sendak. There’s a Sealy in the background of “Where the Wild Things Are.” “Higgelty Piggelty Pop’s” Jenny is also a Sealy. I talked several time with a couple breeders and with a rescue person before finding “Henry”. I’m quite pleased with the little guy. He’s not quite as willing to please as a Corgi, nor as house proud. But he’s a most agreeable companion.
I’m amazed at the flap I now get for having a “little white dog”. My standard response is “it’s a dog, not a penis.” I’m not fond of a sharp bark, but that can be discouraged. The incessant barkers in this neighborhood are labs! Their people leave them locked on front porches or in back yards for hours. You know, people whose big, active, outdoor lives do NOT actually include their dogs.
Sadly, I am aware of the fact that homeowner’s insurance will charge extra for some breeds. While this is unfair, it remained something I considered. There are breeds I admire that I will never bring into my home. I know who I am, and what I can and cannot offer a dog.
Beth with the Corgis says
I also wanted to comment on this: “people rated photos of a Labradors and a Border Collie as significantly “friendlier, approachable and adoptable” than a pit-bull type dog. All the dogs in the photos, by the way, had relaxed, “friendly” expressions on their face.”
There is not really a conflict in that statement. Pit bulls don’t fight other dogs because they are unfriendly, any more than JRT’s go to ground after rodents because of meanness. The expression on a dog’s face reflects its inner state at the moment the camera lens snapped. As a trainer, I’m sure you have seen many friendly dogs who would bite a person who broke some rule the dog had, and many a worried and tense looking dog who would probably allow itself to be tortured before it would dream of biting someone.
Pocket Pittie, if I was out without my dogs and saw yours, I would come right over and give them smooches (after asking you if it was ok first, of course!)
Connie Kogler says
I have mini dachshunds. 4 of them. Barbie who is 8 is completely at fault. Or maybe the daughter who at the time wanted nothing else no matter what. We had AmStaffs at the time and as lovely as they were, the public does not like them. My last one is now 8 and has been with my son since puppyhood.
The dachshunds can surely be yappy, but I work and am working hard on training, manners, politeness etc. Most folks who visit say they’ve never seen nicer ones. But there is a lot of effort involved.
Karen says
This research is really interesting. I photography the dogs for my local shelter’s website and we usually just have the dogs by themselves, either playing or posing (or both), but if we need to include a kid or an older person in the photos, we could certainly start doing that. Thanks for sharing!
Rose C says
Trisha, I love your choice of subject for texture for your photography homework, especially how the chicken wing photo came out.
LOL, Marilyn Kircus, that was pretty funny — your sweet faced white standard poodle was saying, “just let me get him!”
I got my dogs as puppies, saw their photos from their breeder’s website and, of course, all puppies are adorable and harmless-looking so the picture bias was more like who’s cuter than who. But I can see how a dog sitting next to a child or an elderly woman in a photo can be perceived as friendlier. (Just so it’s clear, ‘elderly’ here actually means ‘wiser and more beautiful’ 🙂
As with anything, though, there is upside and downside to this. Upside would be possibility of increasing a dog’s adoptability but one downside could be that a dog seen in a photo sitting next to an elderly may be adopted to or for an elderly except that the dog is actually very active or too strong (could cause an elderly to fall) for such an individual. The adoption centers and shelters around my area are really good at matching the dogs with potential adopters, though, and I really commend them for that (once, my adoption application was rejected and I was disappointed because I have set my heart on the dog but later came to understand and accept why they do this type of rigid screening). These types of photos are good for a start but people must understand that a dog responds to each individual person differently and that they (and their current dog/s, if any) must meet the dog being adopted to see if the dog is a good match for them.
Elise says
I have a jack Russell terrier myself. I chose her because I wanted an active, intelligent dog that was also easily portable and fit well in my lap. She’s in training to be a service dog for my PTSD and is doing great, which surprises a lot of people because of the stereotypes about jack’s being neurotic, high strung, and a bit aggressive. In fact, she is actually quite calm, very sensitive, and can go through a grocery store healing like any Labrador service dog out there. She responds to my PTSD whenever needed. Typically I hear of JRT as being the opposite of what she is. She gets compliments all the time about how calm and well behaved she is, and sure, there is A LOT of training involved, but her base personality and disposition is what makes her so ideal for the job. I like this article a lot, it is so important to broaden awareness on this subject, for the shelter dogs, and people purchasing puppies expecting on thing and getting another, then sending the dog to a shelter because they didn’t get the stereotypical Labrador. I believe we should focus more on temperament and personality when looking for the dog we want. Breed isn’t everything by any means.
LisaH says
My draw to the two BCs I have now is surely related to having grown up with a black & white male BC on our farm. Despite 20 years between Zach’s passing and getting Java, it was a BC that I wanted. I responded to a Buyers Guide ad and went intending to buy a female and was torn betw a red & white female w/blue eyes and a black & white male w/one blue & one brown eye, and the pull from the past was too great, and I got the black and white male. Literally one of the BEST decisions of my life. I also wanted a dog that was around 35-40 pounds, active, biddable, didn’t require more than some brushing and nail trims, and would be fun. It is fascinating seeing him mature both physically and cognitively. Three years later I knew more so I did due diligence for my 2nd BC – met the breeder several times, my dog’s parents, lots & lots of discussion, lots of photos were sent to me, I met her at 5 weeks, then got her at 8 weeks. And this time I let the breeder select for me as I knew the health was sound but she knew her litter. She selected for the sweet temperament I wanted, and again I was leaning toward the female that had the traditional black & white markings. Now Lola is nearing 3 years and the maturity is really kicking in, same as with the other one at age 3. BTW I just finished Pukka’s Promise this morning and I have even more plans for how I select and raise my next BC, as well as some changes I am instituting now to hopefully increase my current dogs’ quality and longevity of life. I highly recommend this book, incredibly informative, and touching.
Rose C says
Speaking of ‘handler appearance’ . . .
My neighbor who has a 14-yr old, 12-lb mix breed named Teeny Weeny once related to me a story. He was in his car in the parking lot of a restaurant in our neigborhood when another car parked next to him. Two young men and a woman were in it and the driver told him, “We remember your car and we know exactly where you live.” He has never seen those people and had no idea what they were talking about but out of his fear, he bought a new car and planned to leave his current car parked in the garage (I wish I can do that too — “My car got wet with rain, I’m buying a new one!” 🙂 . I don’t think it was as serious as he perceived it, his current car is laden with so much bedazzlement that I think those young people were more like making fun of and playing him. Anyway, he then told me, his dog is now old and blind and when she passes, he will get himself 2 Chihuahuas for protection. The picture of a 160+ lb man being ‘protected’ by two little Chihuahuas appeared in my mind and I couldn’t help but laugh right in front of him. I think he got offended because there was another neighbor listening to us.
Now, I can be accused of having some degree of breed bias here but if I seriously want a ‘protection’ dog, I will get one of those that are bred to be guard dogs. Even if the dog happens to be a friendly one, at least its size, look, and the reputation of the breed will precede him/her. That was about 2 years ago and the picture is still stuck in my head. He still does have Teeny Weeny so I guess he would just have to learn how to protect himself for now. 🙂
ABandMM says
My first dog had passed away at the end of August 2006 and I had to attend a conference in Italy in the beginning of that October, thus put off getting another dog until I returned. I was sad, really missed my Morgan, and needed/wanted another dog. I spent time in Italy on the internet searching the Petfinder listings of dogs in my local animal shelters. I wanted a dog that was at least a year old, at least 40 lb (not a small dog person!) ideally housebroken, liked going for long walks, and good with kids. I fell in love with a picture, and from Italy, emailed the shelter and they put me in contact with the woman who was fostering “Abby”. I returned from my trip on a Saturday night, met Abby on Sunday, fell hard even though she was a bit aloof. Took her to meet my landlord/apartment managers (they had to approve dogs) and adopted her that Friday. 6.5 yrs later, we are still together and she isn’t so aloof anymore :).
I had a very clear idea of what type of dog I wanted given my lifestyle (puppies were not an option, neither was a dog that needed intense exercise) and I have been very lucky with both my dogs, each adopted from an animal shelter.
Interesting information about how dogs were perceived based on their “props”. I do think that people want to have a picture of how a dog fits into their life, thus seeing a dog sitting nicely next to a grandmother, or having a small child holding the leash, gives the impression that “this dog won’t knock down my mom when she visits, and how oh sweet, I’ll be able to walk the dog with my kids”. Kind of like how when you are selling a house you need to “stage it” so that people can easily envision themselves living there.
But as someone mentioned above, if a shelter or other rescue organization is going to “pose” dogs with humans or certain settings, they should make sure that it does indeed reflect the dog and its current temperament and skill set (i.e. if the dog is a puller and needs to learn how to walk nicely on a leash, don’t photograph it the a kid holding the leash).
Kerry M. says
My last two dogs were eye contact dogs, which is probably why they got adopted. I just love a dog that can hold a gaze. So that study surprised me. I would have thought eye contact was a good predicter. Maybe it’s just a good predicter for me. Or maybe it’s hard to train for transferability?
I wonder if the photo with a kid could backfire. I think I would pass that one over seeing as how I wouldn’t want to take a kid’s dog. I mean, clearly that isn’t the case, but I’m not sure if I’d think logically about it.
Kind of disappointed there wasn’t a picture of the “rough male”. In my mind, he’s a hardcore biker with full arm tattoos and we now know a bit more about your type.
lin says
We went looking for a dog at the near the end of an adoptathon at our local shelter, and what drew me to Pupper was the fact that she was asleep in the midst of excited dogs. ‘What a calm dog!’ I thought. My husband still gives me grief that I thought her snoring was cute. I liked her looks, too — she was a golden shepherd/lab mix. Totally fell in with the stereotype. ; )
We went back the next week to look at her and some other dogs, and ended up choosing her. She seemed friendly and normal. Boy, did we have a learning curve ahead of us.
My dog growing up was a German Shepherd mix, and I’ve always been drawn to that look. But my husband was bit on the face by a shepherd and steadfastly refuses to even consider one, even though we both knew a GSD who was the canine equivalent of Mother Teresa.
In five or so years, when my hair goes completely grey, maybe my shelter can use me as the ‘elderly woman’ prop. Something to look forward to!
Lovely picture of the shiny feathers — great example of texture! That chicken face demonstrates how closely birds are related to dinosaurs.
Kat says
A week or so ago Ranger and I were taking a walk in the park. A young man, late teens early twenties, well groomed and wearing the typical uniform of the age Jeans and a T-shirt entered the park with his gorgeous grey/orange brindle bully breed. The dog was wearing a studded black leather collar and sporting a leash with a skull and crossed bones motif. The guy dropped the leash and seconds later the dog launched himself at Ranger like a missile. In the split second I had to decide what to do I chose to put Ranger behind me and stand between my 90 lb lap dog and the powerful bully breed bearing down on us while the guy yells fruitlessly at his dog to stop and come back. Later when I had time to think about it I realized that I hadn’t seen anything from the dog except over enthusiastic greeting rudeness and that what Ranger was telling me was “this is a rude dog but I can settle him down.” What I was reacting to was the way the dog was dressed coupled with the fact that the young man obviously had no control over his dog. I blocked the dog from getting to Ranger until he had looked at me and let them have their meet and greet. Ranger insisted the dog be polite and the dog complied. The guy caught up, took his dog by the leash and apologized if we’d been scared. As we completed our circuit of the park and were heading back to the car I heard the guy again yelling fruitlessly for his dog and sure enough there he was heading for Ranger again. About that time the park police pulled up; I captured the bully by his leash and held him until the young man caught up. As I left the park police were lecturing him about how he shouldn’t let his dog run loose. In thinking it over I was surprised by how much difference the way the dog was dressed made to how I perceived his behavior. If he’d been wearing rainbow peace signs instead of studded black leather I’m certain I would have simply let Ranger handle it rather than getting between them.
As for how my two came to be part of my family I didn’t look online at photos I went directly to my local humane society and ‘shopped’ the kennels. I stopped at their kennels because of their looks. Ranger is simply beautiful—in fact he thinks beautiful is his other name he hears it so often—and Finna’s great big ears and the ‘bow’ on top of her head are irresistibly cute. What kept me at their kennels was the sense of connection. Ranger just felt like he was my dog from the beginning and despite being obviously terrified and overwhelmed Finna still managed to creep close enough to lick my fingers through the gate. We adopted Ranger about six weeks after my last radiation treatment for breast cancer. No one in their right mind would adopt a high energy, untrained, herding breed that soon after finishing cancer treatment but no one ever said I was in my right mind at that point. He’d been surrendered due to a death in his previous family and he needed a home where he could be all that he could be and I needed something that would drag me back into living life. We both got what we needed. Finna was surrendered by the animal hoarders that had raised her; credit to them for trying to reduce the number of animals in their care to manageable numbers. She needed to be rescued and I needed to be needed. We both got what we needed in spades. In all honesty, if she’d gone to nearly any other home she would have been put down, her frenzied out of control greetings would have terrified most people. But we’re stubborn and didn’t give up. She still has a long way to go, however, my crazy psycho bitch blew everyone away at her reactive dog class today. Other participants were asking our trainer why Finna was there! That scared dog I saw trying to connect despite everything she was feeling is turning into the awesome dog I glimpsed in her hesitant efforts.
Finna http://www.flickr.com/photos/33350160@N02/6808938245/in/set-72157627938760349
Ranger http://www.flickr.com/photos/33350160@N02/3759243814/in/set-72157621312676230
Louise Kerr says
So alarming that people will adopt a dog based on their perception of what that dog is. There are so many more important variables like will the dog need lots of exercise, what are the grooming requirements, will that specific dog be the right fit for our family that should be considered. I have been breeding Belgian Shepherds and Miniature poodles now for many years as well as training and grooming dogs and the breed stereotypes are so wrong it is scary.
Trisha says
To Beth with Corgis: I wrote that all the dogs had “friendly” expressions merely to clarify that each dog looked as friendly as the other dogs. Thus, the people’s ratings had little to do with the expression on the dog’s face. Did you assume I meant otherwise? After all my years working with grinning, slap happy dogs who had bitten someone severely the day before, far from it. (Or terrified, snarling dogs who would wrap themselves inside out before biting….)
Also to Beth: I agree completely that stereotypes can go both ways (positive and negative, true and not true). That’s why I wrote: “Are any breed stereotypes valid? Both positive and negative? What are the comfort levels in the field about discussing them? This discussion deserves its own post, so I’ll write about that in another article.” I think it is indeed an issue that should be discussed, but I’ve learned to keep each article limited, as much as it can be, to one topic.
Trisha says
Thanks Lisa and Kat for sending photos of your dogs (altho Lisa I couldn’t find yours). I’m a sucker for dogs that look like Ranger, give him whatever he’d like from me (I promise not to hug).
To Kerry M: Sorry I didn’t get a photo of the ‘rough male.” Actually, he looked pretty tame to most of us–no tats, no backward hat, no biker earrings. He was just a strong-looking man in a black T-shirt with grey hair and a baseball cap (on the right way). I’ll ask Lisa for the photo for giggles.
And Kat, I love your story about the impact of the handler’s appearance and his rushing dog. So understandable! How are we not to use visual signals as a way of responding to the world? One night I was awoken at 2 am by a man running toward the house in the dark. Tulip the guard dog had heard noises and woke me up. I looked out the window and there were 3 men huddled under a big tree by the road, and one split off and began running toward the house. I ran downstairs with Tulip, took her by the collar and went out onto the porch and said “Stop or I’ll let the dog go.” She was barking vigorously, but Tulip loved people and was actually relatively fearful, so she was about as much of a threat as I was. I did trust she would protect me if I was attacked–two times one animal had attacked another, a ram attacked me and a dog attacked another dog–and she immediately charged in. But if I just let her go I knew she wouldn’t do anything but dance around the charging stranger. But she weighed 100 lbs and looked pretty intimidating. The guy stopped after I spoke and said in a high, squeaky voice: “Could I leave my bike here under your tree until the morning? It broke down.” He went from an extremely dangerous intruder to a little slightly inebriated guy who was stupid enough to run full out at a house at 2 am without thinking about how it would be perceived.
Laurie Hoffmnn says
Our middle-school-aged daughter chose her first dog. She had been looking for a dog to take long, brisk walks with. We told her that she could only choose a dog from the local shelter, even if she had to wait for the ‘right match’ to come in. In addition, I had to approve the choice before we could adopt the dog. She chose a 5 month-old, beige dog with a curly tail and blue eyes that was listed as a ‘husky mix’. She was 5 months old and had already been at the shelter for at least 2 months. She exceptionally gentle and affectionate with children of any age, but seemed to have zero attention-span. I knew very little about dog training, but my test to see if she was willing to be trained was that I asked her to sit. She sat only for a second, but I felt that it was enough evidence for me to try to get to know her better. Since she would not walk on a leash she had to be carried to the visiting room. She was difficult to train, but only because we didn’t know much about training dogs. She’s a great dog and I would never trade her for anything. She’s been part of our family for 5 years, now. We later found that she was 1/2 husky and 1/2 ‘pitbull. Because of her shining example for the breed we sought out a pit-mix when we looked to adopt a second dog.
Lisa W says
Sorry the link didn’t work, hopefully, this one will. She doesn’t look quite the same now, but just as alluring to us anyway!
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/35879842/Olive.jpg
Nicola says
Well, I bought my tenterfield terrier because she was shivering and scared at the (back yard) breeder. She cuddled right in to me, and I couldn’t leave her there. She was being sold as a smooth fox terrier (about 3 x the size), but I suspect something else got to the mum.
I bought my lab cross the same day – as she grew up, she turned into a kelpie cross! Much different to what I expected. But I came to love her, and love the obedience training she needed to keep her mind busy. So when I next looked for a dog, I looked for a working breed with which I could train & compete. A trainer working for a local shelter found my short haired border collie for me – as a pup he looked like he would be smaller than a typical bc, which was what I wanted, but he grew to bc size. Unfortunately his hips weren’t good enough for agility, and he was too anxious to cope with obedience competition. We did get our Rally Novice, but he was really anxious at the trials, and I retired him.
Next dog? A purebred, so I have a better idea what I’m going to get, in size and temperament. Whether it is an adult, or a pup will depend on what is available when I start looking, though for competition, early socialisation and training count a lot.
As for bully breeds, I don’t like them, but working at a shelter, I was more worried about chihuahuas & cattle dogs than any pit bull I had to deal with. Unfortunately, due to breed specific legislation, most of the pitties had to be euthanised, but we managed to slip a couple through as bull mastiff crosses.
em says
I am so enjoying hearing these stories about the things that initially drew people to their dogs, as well as the factors that go into making ‘first impressions’ when meeting a new dog.
Otis was picked in person at the shelter. It was his energy- friendly and willing to share affection but soooo peaceful and calm around both the people and the other animals at the shelter that sold me. He LOOKED like a hot mess- terribly underweight, literally mangy, with infections (being treated but not fully resolved) in both eyes stemming from entropion. With vertebrae poking up like a stegosaurus, his ribs like a toast rack, and his coat a miserable, dry patchy mess, he could not have looked any rougher, but weirdly, I don’t remember feeling sorry for him- my first thought as he stood and walked to the door of his kennel to wait patiently for us to approach was, ‘wow, he is awesome!’ He had such a powerful emotional presence, and his vibe was so calm and so patient, I was irresistably drawn to him.
I’ve mentioned this before in the context of big dog/small dog perception by the general public, but I wanted to add to what so many people have mentioned earlier, that walking dogs together can alter the impression that they make, too. When I was dogsitting a Chihuahua for a family member, I walked together with Otis the Great Dane for a couple of weeks and the reaction that I got when out in public surprised even me. Danes always inspire a certain amount of attention- and the fact that Otis is well-mannered on the leash (seeing him being managed by smallish, roundish, relaxed-looking woman putting forth no particular effort probably helps instill this impression) made him very attractive- I was used to being approached by people who wanted to meet and greet, but the regular level of attention was NOTHING compared to what happened when I walked him with Capone the Chi. Nearly EVERYBODY pointed and laughed happily- people crowded around in the park and when we stopped to cross the street. Capone was in his glory, strutting happily beside or between Otis’ feet, Otis was his usual gracious self, and we got an incredible amount of attention whevever we went.
The thing that I found most interesting was the words people used to describe the dogs. Many people like me, like dogs, period, but there are many who favor big dogs over small or small over big. Walking them together, I heard many comments directed to Otis and Capone that I would not ordinarily expect to hear if I were walking either alone. Capone the Chi was called ‘awesome,’ ‘cool’, and ‘tough’, primarily by men, especially young men- presumably by virtue of the fact that he could quite literally ‘hang with the big dogs’. Otis- giant, black, short-coated and muscular- was greeted by an unprecedented number of people, mostly women, who immediately dubbed him, ‘sweet’, ‘adorable’, and ‘so gentle.” Admittedly, he gets a fair amount of cooing and crooning from the people who approach him ordinarily, but this was remarkable both for the degree and because people were saying this as we passed by, before they’d made any effort to approach.
This may not add much of scientific significance to the discussion, but I just wanted to tell this story as one more anecdote- where first impressions of dogs are concerned, context is key!
Linda says
I have had many breeds in my lifetime.. spaniel mixes and shepherds were a favorite for a time but my heart breed will always be the Great Danes.. I fell in love with the neighbor dog and had to have one in my bed. I enjoy all the giant breeds but the lazy silly Danes own my heart. As adults they match my lifestyle…. as pups they get me off the couch and as teenagers…. they make me laugh. Great Danes have a taken a beating in the media lately and are often given up at adolescence because folks don’t do their homework and don’t train their dogs. In the case of the Great Danes both can be fatal to the dog. My dogs are well socialized because I know that the breed can get a little weird about other dogs if not socialized heavily in the growing years.
My last rescue was due to folks boarding him at the vet for “vacation” and never going back for him. When he came to me he had developed a bad case of separation anxiety. Another dog , I pulled from a humane society where he was slowly starving himself to death due to anorexia caused by stress… I took him home with me… found him a permanent home with a 4th year vet student… when I see him occasionally he still thanks me with slobbery kisses…. I now have a 10 month old pup and a beautiful show dog that is too anxious to show.
Breed choices need to made with the head not the heart. My biggest financial mistake and I knew better but did it anyway..was to purchase a Cocker Spaniel vet bill from a pet store many years ago… I spent a fortune on that dog but I couldn’t cure her of lung cancer … but I don’t regret it .. she had the best life I could give her. But she really wasn’t the right breed for me with small children at the time.
Educating people to find the right pet for their family will always be difficult. I work with a cat rescue and I can’t believe the strange stereotypes that people carry about all animals. Hopefully this study will help us to understand and improve the chances of a successful adoption.
Beth with the Corgis says
Trisha, sorry to not be clear 🙂 My point was actually that a person rating some dogs as more friendly than others, even though all the dogs had a friendly look on their face, is not surprising since most people realize at some gut level that the expression on the dog’s face does not actually indicate his overall friendliness or adoptability.
So given a “blank slate” picture of a dog with no other information to go by, people are likely to rate it’s personality based mostly on what they know of the breed.
Posing a dog with a grandmother, rightly or wrongly, makes people assume that the rescue group did that pose because they had assessed the dog and knew it was good with people who might be a bit more fragile. Posing a dog with a child makes us assume he’s good with children, or why would he be posed that way?
So I understand why you clarified that the poses all showed happy dogs, but certainly it doesn’t surprise me that people don’t judge a dog’s likelihood of having certain traits just based on whether or not he’s looking relaxed and happy at the moment. In much the same way, if someone showed me a picture of a young Border Collie, an English Pointer in a blaze orange collie, and a graying Basset and asked which dog was the couch potato, if all were sitting in a neutral pose and I had nothing else to go on I’d pick the aging Basset.
Beth with the Corgis says
Typos! That would be “collar”, not “collie.” Not sure what a blaze orange collie would look like! 🙂 And I used “it’s” instead of “its”.
Robyn says
First, from reading the comments I find it interesting how many people choose a dog because of breed. There are some cases where that makes sense to me (i.e. allergies and getting a poodle). I was volunteering at a shelter when a dog came in that I fell in love with. Breed didn’t matter–I actually didn’t know anything about the breed (lab) and just fell in love with the dog. After I adopted him, I found out from the shelter staff that the local lab rescue group wouldn’t foster him because they had limited space and male black dogs are the last to be adopted. I am still amazed when someone is afraid of my giant couch potato. The only thing he’s a danger to is a hotdog, which he can hunt down and make disappear in seconds. (It does turn out that “couch potato” is my favorite breed.)
Second, in general I would probably be more cautious around a large dog of any breed with a small child. A) The dog is likely to be protective of the child, and b) the child likely has no control over the dog. From observations, it seems like some breeds play harder than other breeds, which can appear to be aggression. I’ve seen retrievers chasing a ball when a pit-type dog chases the retriever, eventually frustrating the retriever who just wants the ball, and I’ve seen the same thing happen with border collies and frisbees. It also seems like pits are generally pretty athletic dogs, and any dog will get frustrated without enough exercise. But my friend’s standard poodle plays just as hard as our local pits and usually dominates them. My lab has been attacked by other dogs twice: a boxer and another black lab. But he’s also friends with two other boxers in the neighborhood.
Again, from observations only, it seems like there are some breed stereotypes that generally hold true — labs and food; pits and loyalty; german shepherds and guarding — but aggression seems to have less to do with breed and more to be learned (i.e. dogs that are used to having their own yard/territory and are suddenly made to share space with other dogs) or specific to a particular dog.
Great article.
liz says
After six months or so of looking for my second dog, I saw photos of a super cute litter of black lab mix pups and went to check ’em out. Didn’t meet a single one. Instead I ended up with the ‘keeshond mix’ (not) goofball who alternated between playing with her toy and napping after getting along perfectly with my resident dog.
I hadn’t even looked at her photo until after we came home together!
I think that applying the research results may be helpful to some, but as in everything else, even shelter and rescue operations can’t be painted with one big broad brush without overlooking important details. As much as it would be great if all things were simple ;), the usefulness of good quality photos isn’t necessarily a straightforward conversation. Photos play a different role for different types of organizations: pics are one thing for rescues who don’t have brick and mortar locations and another for high volume shelters. Photos often play a role in drawing a crowd, but for some high traffic shelters (who have such a rapid turnaround that not all dogs on the floor are even able to be photographed before being adopted) their traffic springs in part from strong community involvement. Another individual aspect of an organization’s use of photos might be which breed-specific causes they assume, which depends on a host of factors (eg how they define themselves and what they deem to be priority).
Michy says
Neat article. I do think that some breed stereotypes are based in truth, but also that one must consider that each dog is an individual. When we were looking for a service dog candidate for my recently passed husband, er did a fair amount of research, and though his favored breed is the Siberian Husky, we knew that the likelyhood of finding one that could do what we needed without a whole lot of way more than we could handle work, we wound up choosing a German Shepherd Dog. Koshka is the first dog we’ve ever gotten from a breeder, and we did our research, and spoke with her quite a bit about what we needed, then she chose the best dog from the litter for us. And he is exactly what we needed for the job, though now he is going to be my dog alone.
Right now he’s just over a year, and with both of us having been unable to do nearly the amount of training we’ve needed for a past several months, he gets very wired up at meeting people, but he’s very social, because we were able to get him out and about a lot when he was younger. However, in his excitement to meet people, he barks, and that big GSD bark is very intimidating to a lot of people. Once I can get through all the beginning stages of grief and begin to function again, I’ll be able to do more than just the basics, and we’ll get his manners back under control. But at a week out from the loss, at this point his only job and training is to be silly for me and not eat the cats. Lucky for me, he does those well.
Complete side note, I think it helped both the dogs very much that they were there when he passed, and licking his face while I was doing CPR, so they seem to understand he is gone, and other than a few bits of wanting more attention, they’ve settled right into routine again.
I love the way those pictures turned out. The wing has such beautiful russet colors and looks so soft and makes me want to stroke it. The bumpy skin around the beak and eyes is so vivid that I feel like if I reached out to the scfreen and touched it, I would feel the bumpiness.
Lisa says
I’m still reading the comments, so I don’t know if this has been brought up yet, but I think there is a very dark side to positive breed perceptions that doesn’t get mentioned enough.
When a particular breed is considered safe family dog, that breed tends to become more attractive to less experienced owners; and more disturbingly, troublesome behaviors are more likely to be ignored or excused. Time and time again, I’ve seen poorly controlled Labs and Goldens, for example, allowed to run around loose in neighborhoods, and even display serious aggression, and have people say, “Oh, he’s just playing. He’s not serious!” And I’ve unfortunately seen the results of those ‘not serious’ dogs that ended up seriously injuring people.
If a bully breed dog were to exhibit some of the behaviors I’ve seen other breeds get away with, it would be addressed pretty much immediately, if not by the owners, then by authorities. They are far more likely, in a conscientious home, to be trained, socialized, and contained.
I know I am extra proactive and conscious about both behaviors and appearances with my bully breed dogs than I am with other breeds. (Not that I’m letting anyone get away with real trouble behaviors, of course, but I am extra careful about making sure that my blocky dogs have very high tolerance levels.)
So in the short term, positive breed stereotypes may get dogs adopted more quickly, but those same stereotypes often set them up for failure. I think all breed stereotypes need to be taken with a grain of salt, and all dogs deserve to be treated as individuals.
Nic1 says
Another fascinating blog post Trisha. Pit Bulls are a banned breed in the UK and it is the Staffie that seems to have the privileged position of the standard Bully breed type dog who accompanies the stereotypical disenfranchised young male. Yet, some of the most well behaved, nonreactive dogs I see are the Staffie types belonging to some of the homeless people I see in the city where I work. The dogs are obviously habituated to the environment but seem to be loved and well managed by their owners. Whenever it is cold it is the dogs that are wearing the warm coats (!) and they walk beautifully to heal on a lead. These people impress me with their gentle and wise handling yet the guardians of these dogs generally seem to fit the physical description of a disenfranchised young male. Go figure.
My limited experience with dogs has taught me to be alert to how owners are handling and managing their dogs when out and about – regardless of breed. However, I am naturally wary of larger dogs, particularly the guarding breeds. I am respectful of their size coupled with arousal level if the prey drive kicks in. It requires solid handling and environmental management and if I don’t know the dog or the owner, I manage those situations by avoidance. Not sure what that says about me really, perhaps I am over cautious or just inexperienced. But I am respectful of predatory behaviour and residual arousal levels in some terrier types and guarding breeds. But I don’t judge them as bad dogs or nasty dogs.
My mixed breed dog was adopted on visiting a shelter, we didn’t see her picture anywhere on the internet beforehand. We chose her on the basis of her good health; confidence and interest in us and her toys; she was not fearful; she required minimal grooming; she was still quite young and when I first saw her she cocked her head at me and wiggled her backside with joy and excitement. I was smitten. However, being naive and uneducated in canine behaviour and training (I have a course under my belt now!) on adopting her I failed to appreciate how much work her dog-dog reactivity would entail. However, you live and learn! Intuitively, a mixed breed dog was always going to be a priority. Having a medical science background, pedigree breeding of dogs (particularly the show breeds) have never really sat that well with me from a health perspective and I wanted a healthy, robust dog that looked like nature intended.
Trisha – you have a great eye! The photos are delightful. Your artistic nature is finding another channel?
Trisha says
To Beth: Thanks for clarifying. 🙂 And you got it, that is exactly what the authors of the study were trying to find out… perceptions about a breed. And to Lisa: I very much agree that there is a dark side to positive perceptions. So much so I think it deserves its own post. I can’t tell you how many people didn’t believe me when I said I was seeing a Golden Retriever for biting, as well as how many people expected their Golden to put up with what could only be called abuse because, well, it was a Golden…
Elizabeth2 says
Finn’s photo at eight weeks was posted online by his breeder, and he looked like more like an adorable, scruffy, gangly coyote than a purebred Sheltie. His expression was gentle but not shy, his eyes looked smart, the awkwardness in his stance suggested he’d be on the klutzy, goofball side. All this was true of the twelve-week-old puppy we met the next day. The breeder, who called him Mack–as in Mack Truck!– told us he was going to be much bigger than the range for show Shelties, and that of the litter he was the most easy-going, but then came the No Going Back Moment: he trotted right up to Gloria, jumped into her lap, and they started nuzzling.
Beginner’s luck, since without doing nearly enough homework we met the perfect dog. For our second dog we wanted a rescue. Finding this rescue was a completely different matter involving obsessive searching–by me, I’m the obsessive one!–but, again, there was this click at first sight. Bardot was posted online by a great organization, Doggie Protective Services: five photos of a skinny, wary dog, her coat scanty and harsh from the high-kill L.A. shelter she’d been saved from, her expression tense. By that point I was more aware of the issues that can arise when a dog lacks confidence. Yet the instant I saw her photo I thought, That’s her! I tried reasoning myself out of that completely unjustifiable sense of destiny, but couldn’t. Gloria was away, so I went alone to the adoption event. Bardot was in an ex pen with maybe twenty other rescues, and then–I’m embarrassed, I’m not usually particularly romantic, but our eyes met, and it was, It’s you! Finally! YOU! Once she was home with us and settled in, Bardot began to display problems requiring a steep learning curve on our part (our copies of Trisha’s books are about worn out), but she has come to love us deeply, she’s very, very smart, and it’s impossible to imagine life without her. The rational awareness that she was a dog who could turn out to be hard work, the intuitive conviction that she was “the one”–both turned out to be right.
I should say, this love-at-first-sight thing has worked out better for me with dogs than with humans.
Ellen Pepin says
I live in Maryland and right now the state legislature is debating a bill that would overturn a state Supreme Court ruling from last year that labels pit bull type dogs as “inherently dangerous”. As a result of that ruling the shelters are full of pit bulls because people have to get rid of the dog or get evicted from their homes.
My first dog was a fox terrier mix we got at the pound. She was a great little dog for a kid. She was feisty, but friendly. The only person she ever bit was a kid who insisted on pulling her tail, even after I told her to stop. As an adult, I went to a local shelter and got a shepherd/terrier mix. She looked like a mini shepherd, but was all terrier in behavior. She was found nearly dead from starvation on the street. I took her because of all the dogs there she looked me right in the eye and had an expression that almost said “Please take me home”, so I did. It was soon obvious that Nikki had almost no socialization skills, and only trusted me. She learned to trust my husband after a week or so. Other people and dogs were a real challenge. She was extremely leash reactive to anything that moved, and she did nip a jogger. We had her evaluated at ASPCA, who told us she could be managed. It took 10 years, but she finally learned to ignore distractions with enough treats.
However, since I was a child I always wanted a collie. I searched around and found a reliable rescue group in Virginia. I saw a beautiful white collie, Tess, on their web site. I didn’t know if I wanted to deal with her severe allergies, so I asked for another dog that seemed suitable. I was fourth on the waiting list for that dog, so I then choose Tess. That was nearly four years ago and it was meant to be. She is sweet, gentle, and great with kids. She is very low key with her affection, but she is so tuned into my moods, it’s surprising. If I’m feeling down (often), she is instantly beside me, and being a comfort. Collies are great dogs, but you have to spend a lot of time grooming them. I love how she looks, though, when I’m done.
Nic1 says
There is a dark side to positive perspectives indeed. It usually entails placing unrealistic expectations on the dog and then when the dog doesn’t follow through as expected (usually due to lack of training and poor management ) the dog can suffer, usually through inappropriate punishment. The worse scenario is of course the dog is eventually relinquished o a shelter. Sometimes I wonder if inexperienced owners believe that, for example, because a type of dog breed is essentially perceived to be friendly natured that it counteracts the requirement for adequate training an management? Worse is if it doesn’t conform to breed type then there is something wrong with the dog.
LisaW says
This post has really gotten me thinking not just about breed perceptions or bias, but also your question of seeing photos on the internet and the whole Petfinder way of adopting dogs. There is a dark side to this, too.
Long-distance and internet dog adoptions have in many ways become product sales. Photo shoots depicting dogs with or without people to give a certain impression or soften an image is no different than product placement and many of these dogs or puppies have stories that go with them and there is no way to know if it’s fact or fiction. It is based on image and our perceptions of breeds or mixes of breeds and the real desire many people feel to help and/or be needed. I read an article once about someone looking to adopt a dog and how they went about it and how they felt about it, and they wrote about getting out of bed in the wee hours to go search on Petfinder. She called it puppy porn.
And for some rescue operations, it is big business. I am grateful for and realize the important work many rescues and shelters provide, I don’t mean to deride that, but the internet has opened up a can of worms and many adopters have no idea what they are getting themselves into (I count myself in that group). Of all our many dogs — purchased from breeders, adopted from local shelters, and rescued through relatives, our one internet adoption dog has given me the most anguish, the most reward and the most food for thought. Our relationship began based on image — of the dog and of myself — and my perceptions of what was attached to that image. Thankfully, our relationship has grown into something more true and honest.
Our vet behaviorist mentioned that in her practice, she is seeing many more dogs with lots of issues and challenges who have come to the northeast on those big transports adopted by families who are trying their best to manage.
Susan says
I’ve never actually based my choice of dog on their appearance. For me it’s always been who needed me most. So we have Bertie who was the longest resident in the shelter at 3.5 years and just had to get out, Roxy who’d spent her first two years of life in the shelter and was the only puppy from her group not to be homed (probably because she was black – no one seemed to want the black dogs). Then we have Louis who is a nervous wreck, found beaten and abused wandering the streets, who I pulled from the shelter where I was volunteering simply because he couldn’t cope there. It took months for him to realise that he didn’t need to snap at us when we inadvertently alarmed him, and for us to read his signals correctly. And then there’s Daisy who we picked up off the street, emaciated. All are saluki cross/desert type dogs. More recently we added Gypsy, a pointer/lab mix who was so frustrated and unhappy at the shelter and desperately needed some help. So in a way, they all chose me (and probably not for my appearance!) As an aside, I work a lot with rescue Pit Bulls and find them to be incredibly smart and loving. But even I was apprehensive initially, until I became more familiar with the breed, and I am a behaviourist and trainer. It’s rather worrying how deep these breed misconceptions run. I should have known better then, but at least now I do.
Beth with the Corgis says
Two thoughts: one, about the perception of “good” dog breeds when quite a lot of them are not-so-perfect (the biting Goldens): 30 years ago, cocker spaniels were considered an ideal family dog.
Unfortunately, some careless breeding by a few too many people made their personality go downhill fast; it seems that many spaniels are sensitive about personal space, and when not bred carefully this can turn into a general snappishness around the house, and indeed many cockers are quite snappy. However, perception eventually does reflect reality, and many people now seem to think of “snappy” rather than “sweet” when they think of cockers, and as a result I believe they have dropped quite a bit in the breed popularity list.
More importantly, I’ve been pondering since yesterday what about this post made me uncomfortable.
After all, the information (if carefully used) can be a boon to shelters and rescues, and a godsend to their dogs. For instance, many toy poodles have a reputation of not being so great with little kids. If you have a toy poodle who loves children in a shelter, and just put “kid friendly” on its bio, it might not get much attention. But show a photo of it romping with a five-year-old? Well, that might make people look twice.
Adolescent and young adult gun dogs are often “too much dog” for elderly owners, but what if you have a nine-year-old lab mix at your shelter who is several years past his bouncy stage? Showing pics of him walking quietly in a group of dogs with Great Aunty Minnie who volunteers at the shelter holding the leash might remind people that senior dogs of large breeds are frequently quite mellow and may indeed be a good match. And since senior dogs tend to be harder to place, and large mixed gun-dogs also harder to place, this might be a wonderful thing for everyone.
But the pictures chosen in THIS case lead to some troubling questions. Is it EVER a good idea to show a small child holding the leash of a large and powerful dog? A kid should only hold the leash if he’s in a securely fenced yard (or better yet, indoors) and then only if he has instructions to drop the leash if the dog bolts. This might seem like common sense, but three times we have been seriously charged by dogs who meant business because a child or petite woman was holding the leash of a dog much too large for her/him to control. On the first occasion, a nearby parent made a quick grab just in time. One the second, a pit being walked by a young adolescent slipped his harness and charged, grabbing one of mine by the back of the neck for the death shake; luckily he misjudged the size of Jack’s neck and lost his grip, and after being counter-charged three times by my husband (for he kept coming back) the pit finally ran off. The third time, a 90-pound Dalmatian mix dragged a hundred-pound young woman the entire length of a parking lot while she yelled “He’s friendly!!” She was, sadly, as clueless as she was outmatched, for the dog had hackles fully up along his whole back, his tail was a straight line up in the air, and his eyes were fixed black platters. And he was making awful guttural growls. Again my husband managed to keep him at bay til he was back under control (Madison’s tendency to hide behind legs when scary big dogs approach saved her here).
When you see a dog charging yours with death in his eyes because his tiny little handler could not control him, it’s not a feeling you soon forget; you can only hope that you can fend the dog off and it does not reach yours, because you know if it does your dog will be dead.
So is it ever a good idea to pose large powerful dogs with kids holding the leash, and thereby perhaps give the impression that this is an acceptable thing? I will bet that none of the handlers we met thought their dogs were a danger; they were all out on nice days in a busy park, and in all cases my leashed dogs were minding their own business and it was just unlucky that we where there when the other dog decided he’d had it up to here with seeing so many dogs around. (Lest you think we somehow find trouble, we walk just about every day of our lives for the past 6 years in a busy park with lots of dogs; we are bound to run into a few misbehavers).
Shelters need to try to move dogs, but should they show less-than-ideal situations in order to do so?
And on a related note that I won’t expand on too much, it’s very sad that so many powerful breeds and their mixes languish in rescues and shelters. Many (probably most) dog-owners and potential owners have made the decision that their lifestyle is not suited to large dogs from protection-dog or fighting-dog lines. In all honesty, my general feeling is that most of those people are correct in their decision. Quite a few advocates think otherwise and feel that the number of these dogs in shelters is a result of a “bad rap.” But isn’t it possible, even likely, that the reason so many are in shelters is because they are ridiculously over-produced? Their birth rate far exceeds their demand. Should we be working on methods to increase their adoptability? Or maybe should we be focusing on decreasing their breeding rates? I would hate to see the same sales pitches that encourage us to buy products we don’t really need turned around and used to encourage us to choose dogs that we should not really have.
Leila Kullar says
I am an anthrozoology MA student with the University of Exeter in my last year. Over a year ago wrote a paper for one of my classes called “Is my Pit Bull an Upstanding Member of Society”. One of the dogs I live with is a Pit Bull who does not have a temperament that would make him an upstanding member of society (i.e. not good with other dogs outside his home and can be fearful of people). After interviewing a group of people who participated in K9 NW with Screech and me and, thus so Screech’s behaviour in the same context, I came to the inclusion that yes the group did have concerns about Screech but they were okay with him as they viewed Screech and me as a team and they trusted me to take care of Screech so that he could maneuver himself around the human world. In some sense, this is the same as the pictures of the pit bull with the child and senior human; the dog is more acceptable when placed with what we perceive as an appropriate guardian/home.
I totally agree that dogs appear more approachable and, therefore, more adoptable if placed with humans in pictures.
Mary K. says
I volunteer dog walk and train at a local humane shelter. Some of the sweetest and most trainable breeds I have worked with are in the bully breed category. Often, I will take one of these dogs 0n an off premise outing to expose them to new sights and sounds and smells. I have so many people ask me if “that is a pit bull” with a mix of fear and apprehension even when the dog I am with is walking calmly beside me and is very well behaved. I have never once had a person ask if they could pet “my” dog when I am with bully breeds which is not the case when I have other breeds with me. I try to educate about breed sterotypes but the sterotypes will always be there especially because the media helps perpetuate them. The dog that scared me the most? A cockapoo that suddenly lost interest in a belly rub and decided to let me know it by going after my face :/
Juliette says
Anyone ever come across colour prejudice/stereotyping in regard to dogs before?
Once when I was walking my very pretty little brindle lurcher pup (she looks very like a whippet), a lady came up to me and said “I just want to ask you what your dog is like? Because I’ve always heard that stripy dogs are very vicious.” I was too taken aback to ask her where this idea had come from, but as staffies are often brindled and are perceived by many to be aggressive, perhaps that was the connection.
As for how I chose my dogs:
I have two lurchers – the first was totally unplanned: I was visiting a shelter without any intention of getting a dog, and this guy made eye contact, rushed off, grabbed a toy and brought it to me. Our eyes met again and that was it, I took him home! He has turned out to be my ‘once in a lifetime’ dog and I’ll never have another like him.
Because the eye contact thing worked so well that time, I used it to pick my second lurcher out from her litter mates – she really held my gaze and when the rest of the litter ran off together she stayed beside me.
Both of my dogs are fabulous, but they have very different characters; the first one is my Helper – always watching to see what I want and what needs to be done. The second is my Challenger – always watching to see how she can exploit a weakness. Not as tough now as when she was in her teens, but she keeps me on my toes – it’s good for me!
So is eye contact a good method for choosing a dog? 🙂
Norma says
As the proud — and law-abiding, responsible, loving — mama of two pit bulls, I never cease to be amazed by people who walk their dogs off -leash (in violation of the law here) and if you call them on it, say, “She’s friendly, it’s okay” or “He’s a Lab! It’s okay” — knowing full well that if their unleashed, unrestrained dog, and one of my leashed dogs “got into it,” the pit bull would be blamed despite having been the one complying with the law. I live in a sprawling, suburban development that is ostensibly “great” for dog-walking, except that dozens of homeowners in the streets surrounding mine do not have fenced yards and allow their dogs to wander around. When walking our dogs, my boyfriend and I have had to deal with dogs running at us many times. When we alert the owners, we get the same, “It’s okay, she’s friendly” BS. Not the point.
michelle says
I was hoping it wasn’t too late to request a topic for discussion, I recently saw a youtube video of a trainer Claudia Fugazza, she is teaching dogs, by having them mimic her movements. It is quite interesting. Dogs are social learners. Pretty cool concept! http://youtu.be/d_ipfb2f8Gc
What are your thoughts?
em says
Wow, Beth w/Corgis, I’m sorry that you’ve had so many scary run-ins with poorly controlled dogs, and Norma, as the owner of one large and one very large dog, I know that sinking feeling when a small off-leash dog is charging at us only too well (I say small because I personally don’t worry about the big guys as much- even in the worst-case scenario, it’s not likely to be a lethal encounter and we’re not as likely to be blamed). Even as socially solid as my dogs are, it would only take one annoyed slap, slightly misjudged, and a small dog could be very seriously hurt.
I would say, though, that I see nothing wrong with the photos from the post. The boy in question is not walking out on the street, he’s standing, evidently indoors, posing for a photo. I don’t really think that can be construed as even a subtle suggestion that a five-year-old should be expected to walk any dog unsupervised, much less one nearly as big as himself. What it can and does do, I think, is help prospective adopters see the dog in a different light.
What was great about my experience walking a dane and a chihuahua together was that the unusual conclusions I got from people were TRUE. Otis IS sweet and gentle, Capone the Chi IS awesome- a tough little trooper who can hike for miles and keep up with the big dogs. Seeing them together didn’t change anything about them, but it helped people to see aspects of their characters that they otherwise might not.
I agree with what many have said, this type of posing would be irresponsible if the pictured dogs were not really good with children/well mannered with older folks, etc..But it does sort of surprise me how many people leapt immediately to the possibility that the pictures might be somehow deceptive- tricking adopters into choosing an “inappropriate” dog, and worrying that shelters will be tempted to disingenuously “sell” dogs who shouldn’t be adopted by families. I do think that that is a valid point to consider, but I also suspect that the immediate pushback may reflect just how deeply ingrained breed bias is- a 100 lb. golden retriever is just as likely to be too much for a child or elderly person to physically handle- would people have reacted the same way to photos that showed an adoptable golden in the same poses?
I think that understanding breed type tendencies can be a very valuable thing in giving prospective owners insight into how their new dog may behave, but when a prospective owner is not choosing a puppy (a puppy is always something of a crapshoot and choosing a specific breed is one way to try to predict the characteristics of the dog one will ultimately get) prospective owners need to be careful about not letting their expectations color their perceptions. It’s fine to know that a terrier may dig or a beagle wander or a siberian howl, what’s problematic is expecting stereotypes to be true so strongly that one begins seeing traits that aren’t actually there, or not seeing traits that are.
Or worse- creating a monster- I’ve known some very insecure, reactive dogs made much worse by fearful people who believe that their dog will be aggressive so strongly that they freeze and flinch and become visibly fearful whenever another dog comes around the corner. I’ve also known some insecure, reactive dogs made much worse by the fact that their owners absolutely ignore the signs of distress that their dog is broadcasting because they believe that their breed makes them bombproof.
There is no doubt that there are many dogs of all breeds who are not appropriate for all families, but it is a terrible shame, to me, if an adopter passes over a marshmallow of a pittie in favor of a fear-reactive biter of a golden retriever because they have only their bias to go on. If photos can be used to help prospective adopters see the truth about a good dog with a scary face- good with kids! good with cats! Gentle manners! Super affectionate!, as far as I’m concerned, that’s great.
Beth with the Corgis says
I suppose I have another question to throw out (though this might better belong in the upcoming post about breed stereotypes).
Many of us would like to see dog laws relaxed to more model several European countries; dogs are allowed in many cases on public transport, in pubs and cafes, and off-leash in open areas as long as they are under voice control.
But that of course will not be possible if we continue to see so many dogs in public who are ok as long as no other dog comes anywhere near them.
Is it responsible to continue to breed so many dogs who are so dog-intolerant, when dogs are everywhere? I’m not just talking about rescues here, though that is a lot of it; several of our more popular breeds are notorious for not being so very dog-friendly.
Technically, by law here there are exactly two small little-league sized fields where dogs are allowed to be off-leash, and that is it. It seems a shame when we have several public parks that are hundreds of acres each that this is all we have. This restriction, of course, leads to many people breaking leash laws in the quieter areas of parks.
However, in honestly I am amazed by the number of people who take their truly dog-aggressive dogs (see my above posts; I’m not talking about a little snarking) to busy areas frequented by other dogs.
I think it’s normal to have a range of dog-friendliness in dogs, from loving them to not much caring for their company. But it also occurs to me that we have a very high tolerance in this country for dogs who truly hate other dogs, who are at serious risk for killing other dogs if they ever get loose. I’m not talking about a provoked fight, I’m talking about dogs who just seeing another friendly dog near them puts them in a rage.
That seems to be outside the range of what I would consider normal behavior for domestic dogs. Yet we have more than a few of them around and I wonder how good that can be for anyone.
Karen says
It looks like the conclusion about how to photograph dogs for a shelter is that the photo should reflect their personality. We do try very hard to do that. If the dog is high energy, we play with him and shoot that. If he’s cuddly, we show him with the handler being a mush. Frequently, the dog won’t look at the camera (big scary black eye) so it’s hard to show a connection and we have to be a bit more creative. It all takes time and patience, but if it draws a good match and an appropriate home, we’ve done our job. I’ll keep all these interesting comments in mind next Sunday when I’m shooting at the shelter. Lots to consider and think about.
As far as Goldens behaving badly and being good “family dogs”, my 13 month old Golden is typical for his breed; he’s very high energy and loves everyone and everything (I wish I’d had my camera when he play bowed to a stink bug), but he did get bitten badly one time by, you guessed it, a Golden. We were in a dog park and when I asked the owner what happened, since it happened near her and I wasn’t watching him closely enough, she explained that my 5 month old puppy “snuck up on” her dog. My dog is very resilient and has been well socialized so he has bounced right back and still loves everyone, but I watch all dogs, regardless of breed, much more carefully than I used to. He’s a softie so it’s typically going to be him that gets hurt, if anyone does. One of his breeder’s dogs (not related to my dog) bit a friend of mine and the breeder explained that it was because I had food on me. (I was 6′ away when it happened.) People see what they expect to see rather than what’s in front of them. There are LOTS of snappy, scary Goldens out there.
CJ says
I’ve been drawn to border collies and herding dogs since my early teens, having met the most wonderful BC. She was gregarious and athletic, and as much as I wanted a BC when I got my current dog, I knew I wasn’t ready to meet the huge exercise needs that a young BC would have. My previous two dogs had been rescues (a Terv & a beagle/terrier/heinz57 mix), but after the heartbreak of their health problems, I decided to track down a very conscientious breeder and chose an Aussie. I ended up with a very spunky black tri puppy to do agility with (the breeder chose perfectly for me). Surviving her puppyhood and teenage period has made me like herding dogs even more, (despite her being a predictable handful lol).
I think what I like most though is having a dog that I can share the same fun activities with. I get to meet numerous breeds and mixes in the puppy classes I assist with though, so the list of dogs I’m drawn to is ever expanding. But I regularly talk people out of getting an Aussie (or a BC for that matter) unless they want ALL the stuff that comes with it, since most owners don’t want to have their life revolve around their dog to the extent that mine does.
I love when an owner finds a dog who is a great match for their lifestyle -but the best matches I’ve seen are almost always after the owners involved did savvy research into the type of dog they wanted and why.
Lark says
We adopted a 18 month old doberman who was malnourished and unsocialized. He had problems with both dogs and people outside of our family. We spent countless hours working with him first with your books and videos Trishia, and later with a wonderful behaviorist. He is now 4 and has come a long, long way but he will always need to be managed in some contexts. I have often wondered how much of his protective behavior is inborn and how much stems from a crummy puppyhood. As far as how he is percieved, when we are in areas where people go specificly to let their dogs run and play, people are drawn to him. When we block walk him, people often cross the street.
Ellen Pepin says
Beth with Corgis makes some excellent points. Many of the most popular dogs are overbred, and many times by people who have no idea what good breeding is. They just want to make money selling puppies through newspaper or internet ads. This poor breeding often leads to behaviorally unstable dogs. Her example of cocker spaniels is a case in point. Collies are another example. Collies have always had a reputation as great family dogs, and this was cemented in people’s minds by Lassie. As collies went toward the top of the popularity list, they, too, were overbred and suddenly there were a lot of unstable collies. That is probably why they are no longer near the top of the popularity list. I’m glad to say that most of the collies I have met seem to be well behaved. That doesn’t mean they are without problems. My generally friendly girl has space issues with our other dog, a Shepherd/Rottweiler mix. She will sometimes (much less now) growl and show teeth if he comes too close to her resting place. She used to do that with us when we first got her, but training has eliminated 99.9 % of the problem. She has always been great with people we meet on the street and most other dogs. However, I closely watch her actions, and she is not off the leash except at the dog park. We don’t go very often as she doesn’t seem to enjoy it, and just goes off by herself.
The other point about children handling large dogs is very valid. I’m no kid, but I’m 5′ 2″ and weigh under 100 lbs. Trying to walk Dakota, our 70+ lb. Shepherd/Rottweiler mix can be dangerous, but mostly for me. He’s great unless he sees a squirrel or bicycle. A couple of years ago, I was walking him when he suddenly started to chase a squirrel. I fell and was pulled across a neighbor’s lawn and ended up with a broken shoulder. Needless to say, I no longer walk him. I just can’t stop him. A person must be able to stay in control. At 69, there will be no more powerful dogs in my future.
Nic1 says
@Beth. I think that your last post raises a really important point. Part of the problem is the familiarity of dogs in our society desensitises people to the reality of truly understanding their nature. Just because they are around us and live amongst us, does not necessarily mean that people are knowledgeable in how to manage, train, understand canine body language and even know how to diffuse a potential dog fight! It is far too easy to own dogs and we place a lot of unfair expectations upon them. Heaven forbid if they display any aggression! Yet I see dogs who are forced into confrontations all the time with other dogs (walking toward a strange dog on a lead, for example’) while all the time they are literally screaming with their body language. If we don’t make canine education and training mandatory then do we have a duty of care to consider breed and temperament appropriateness as pets?
To illustrate my point, if you were to ask a novice puppy owner to swap their puppy for a baby giraffe and look after that instead, most would probably say ‘don’t be silly, I don’t know anything about Giraffes! ‘ Quite right too, but what do they truly know about dogs if they have never cared for one, trained one or lived with one before? What makes them think they know what they are doing? I say all this because as a novice dog owner, I was allowed to adopt a dog-dog reactive mixed breed from a shelter with no experience. As it turned out, I got myself an education, but as my dog’s fourth owner, clearly her other owners didn’t bother.
most would be confident in their
Nic1 says
Forgive me. My iPad clearly has the better of me…..please ignore that last unfinished sentence!
001mum says
Could it be that people turn their dogs into what they expect them to be?
such as a “pick me up dog”, “oh he’s just barking to say hi”, “she’s just a silly lab”,”his mother was a beagle”,”her sister is” a chewer”,”his brother was bossy too”.
maybe if we don’t have strong,grounded and serious expectations of our dogs they will never become that great dog everyone likes.
just thinking……………………………
Rose C says
@Juliette
I too noticed that in many of the posts, people chose their dog from among others because the dog ‘met their eyes and they just knew it’. I’m not disregarding that this could be an indication of a good match (especially when those who mentioned it ended up with the best dog they ever had) but I do know that meeting someone with eye contact is what primates, not canines, do. I personally would choose a dog based on its interaction with me. I’m not saying that those who met their dog’s eyes didn’t interact with their dog but what I mean is that more than me and the dog’s eyes meeting, I’d dwell more on our interaction. I would guess that a dog in the adoption center who is looking at me in the eye may just be surprised at the new stranger who just walked in, maybe curious, maybe even trying to see if I am ‘safe’.
All these said, since dogs do not generally meet by eye contact, the fact that one particular dog meets my eyes with its soft eyes, maybe that dog is really drawn to me more than to others– who knows? I know from my side, when I meet any dog’s soft eyes, I am totally drawn to it — beyond reason — which is not a good basis when adopting a dog.
I think the love at first sight ‘eye contact’ that we made with the dog that we took home meant more to us than to the dog. We see them, looked into their eyes, either fell in love or felt sorry for the one who happened to be looking into our eyes, took it home, and we were sold for life. The fact that we fell madly in love with it ‘at first sight’ must have translated on how we related to it with the dog relating well back towards us.
(I use ‘it’ when referring to dogs in general because it’s a pain to type ‘him/her’ or ‘he/she’ each time.)
Barb Stanek says
I had a stray dog who found me. I named him Charm, as I didn’t need/want a dog, and he charmed me into keeping him! Three years after his death, I could finally think about getting another dog. I wanted a purebred to compete with and went to the big conformation show in Chicago to look around.
There was a Portuguese Water Dog, looking for all the world like a sister/brother to Charm. I did research and determined that I could live with this breed. In all honesty, I think that my heart was gone the minute I laid eyes on my first PWD.
I haven’t regretted a minute of this love match. I have also learned that my limit is living with three PWDs in my house at one time. The reason for three? I didn’t want it to be another three years between dogs!
Barb Stanek
Margaret McLaughlin says
For me, it’s all about the handler. There are a LOT of pits around here, & it’s a breed I like, but since there is also a lot of dogfighting in this area I tense up if I see a pit, especially if it’s wearing a studded collar and/or scarred being walked by a young male–to be specific, I only tense if I have a dog with me, (but since I raise guide dog puppies I almost always do). Even those dogs that show evidence of being fought are usually nice with humans–I just don’t trust them with other dogs. Ever.
On the flip side, I was thrilled beyond words to meet a pit working as a service dog a few months ago. She gave my bouncy Golden puppy a sofr look, & turned her attention right back to her job.
Beth with the Corgis says
em, I just wanted to touch on your surprise that people might be concerned shelters would try to market dogs inappropriately: I think the large majority of rescues are very careful of placement. Indeed, some of them are so restrictive that they find it hard to move dogs at all, because they are looking for the “perfect” home.
On the flip side to that, there is a big business in interstate moving of dogs from the south to the northeast by private rescues and shelters alike. Where I live there are several private rescues that move large quantities of dogs from kill shelters in the south to private rescue in the northeast. Again, most of these are very well-meaning and I am impressed by the work they do.
There is a sub-current to that, though, which is a vocal group who feels that ALL dogs are adoptable and go to great lengths to try to place dogs. Frankly some of these dogs are not safe and should not be going out into the community.
Add to that a growth industry in books and magazine articles that really play up the rewards of people adopting what I would call severely damaged dogs and rehabbing them, and I think you get a fair number (still small, but how many is too many?) of people getting in way over their heads with dogs they cannot handle.
So, do I see my local stray shelter using these techniques to place dogs in inappropriate homes? No, I would frankly be stunned if that happened.
But do I see the possibility of a small number of rescues (some of which I think may be for-profit, truth be told) and perhaps some less-than-scrupulous breeders using marketing to place dogs inappropriately? Absolutely, yes I do. The internet has changed everything and shelters and rescues are no longer just places where local strays and owner surrenders show up.
Beth with the Corgis says
Oh, and the exact same picture of the bully dog and child with NO leash would not have concerned me. It’s the leash that does it, not the proximity of the child to the dog.
Leashes imply control, a child holding a leash is a not-so-subtle message that even a child can control this dog.
Also, it’s my opinion that having a child hold the loop of a leash of all but the smallest dogs can be dangerous to the child, because they don’t always let go if the dog pulls and can get dragged. And that’s true even if the dog is a sweet one.
liz says
a la Gunter’s photos, with a twist:
http://iamthemajority.tumblr.com/
I think this project is very cool because, Gunter’s research, it couples stereotyped dogs with different handlers to affect perception, but goes further by having the dogs’ real-life handlers list a trait about themselves, like their occupations. So as you look through many of the photos, layers of stereotypes are pulled into question based on what we expect people in certain trades to look like.
I think eye contact is an interesting factor in adoptions, too- a direct stare is one of those dog things with more than one meaning (like tail wags, panting, and … I know there’s more but they escape me). In all cases, though, sometimes the behavior is a good sign and sometimes it’s not. Eye contact is definitely not a signal of friendliness in all contexts, yet we can be so accustomed to it representing attentiveness with familiar dogs that perhaps it becomes more difficult to recognize when it means anything else.
Steph says
I grew up with a Sheltie, who was an amazing dog and gave me a lifelong love of herding breeds. Then, when I was in college, one of the professors often took his corgi with him to work, and I fell in love. The corgi, Elvis, was smart, friendly, active, and so cute with those short legs. The professor even wrote a paper about how Elvis could do calculus! So when we bought a house with a fenced in yard we went looking for a corgi. Emma has been everything we could ask for in a dog, and we’re planning to get another one soon. I do run into a common misconception with her though – people assume she can’t move very fast with her short legs. Wrong!
Beth with the Corgis says
@Margaret McLaughlin, if you asked me a few years ago if we had dog-fighting here, I would have said probably no. We hardly seem to have the demographics for it.
Then one night I glanced out my window around 1am and saw about 10 young men with about 6 pit bulls heading towards a deserted area. I truly don’t know what they were doing. But there aren’t many reasons to take a pack of dogs for a walk at 1am. So it could have been anything, but I have my suspicions.
My new answer, if anyone asked, would be “I don’t know if there is dog fighting here, but then again I don’t think I WOULD know.” It prompted me to poke around online and it seems it’s much more prevalent than many people would think. Because it’s secret (illegal) of course you would not know the fighting was going on.
The thing it made me realize is that when we say “pit bulls were bred for dog fighting” it’s not like saying “Great Danes were bred to hunt boar” because the Dane was bred to hunt boar hundreds of years ago, but is now bred as a pet and has been for generations.
The pit bull was bred to fight dogs, and is still extensively bred to fight dogs today. If you have a dog from rescue, you don’t know if the dog had one parent or two or neither who was a fighting dog. Having grown up with almost nothing but purpose-bred dogs (mostly hunting dogs from working lines) I have great respect for the power of genetics.
This article is tough to read so I’d caution that many people might not want to read it.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/sports/july-dec07/dogfighting_07-19.html
Forgive me if I misunderstood what you said, but like you I usually become watchful if I’m out with my dogs and see a pit. If it’s just me, and the dog is clearly friendly and trained, I treat it just like any other dog; as you mentioned, most seem friendly with people.
Martina says
While I entirely agree with Beth with Corgies about solid research I’m also almost afraid to admit that my first two dogs were entirely chosen for their looks. My only defence to that is that they were not to be mine but my partner’s but both ended choosing me as their favourite human.
While I’m into background research, at least regarding character and breed history, my partner always knew she wanted a Labrador and a creme coloured Golden Retriever.
Now we have a sand/yellow coloured Labrador (Gina) with full blown hunting skills and a creme coloured Golden Retriever who is afraid of water and lots of other things. Gina comes from a shelter around the corner, but even french shelters run on city funds are not honest with the future owners. We went back this summer to get a third dog, and despite having a chip they insisted not knowing where that dog (we had picked as our favourite) came from. Knowing that chips have become mandatory several years ago and knowing that the SCC (national canine association) keeps track of the chips distributed, that’s a lame excuse.
The second dog, the Golden (Robby) is actually the third, as we spent weeks socialising Gina with another young Golden rescued by a so-called animal-association – who turned out to having being stolen from his owners garden in broad daylight, because some misguided animal rescuer thought the dog was being mistreated as even in winter he was often outside in the garden. We had to surrender him to his owners (our vet did that for us), and while we were still in shock we decided we needed a replacement immediately.
Robby thrives with minus temperatures (Celsius) and hides when temperatures rise above the twenties. He comes from a breeder around the corner, and his story and problems got me interested in puppy socialisation.
Our latest arrival, is Mailo, a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, and the perfect example what happiness and delight a well socialised puppy from a serious breeder can bring into your life. Mailo was first chosen for his breed (character and size) and then because of his breeder. In the early process there was even another breeder in discussion, but something didn’t feel right and we backed off. Later we learned that she prides herself on breeding ‘small’ cavaliers.
We drove five hours (not much when you live in the states, but in Europe that’s quite far) to meet Mailo’s breeder and the entire litter for a first time. We met for a first walk with her adult cavaliers and our two, and brought all of them in their garden to meet the puppies. We chose a German breeder who is keen on providing healthy dogs; cavaliers from France are known for having heart problems, even our vet was surprised to see a cavalier with such a good pedigree. We met Mailo when he was 6 weeks old and took him home with 10 weeks. He has been a wonderful addition to our pack 🙂
Despite my big heart for animals and while supporting the shelter whenever I can, after all the problems we had, I think that from now on all my future dogs will come from a breeder and if I have to drive a day to meet one I trust.
Last week I met a woman walking four Gordon Setters – what beautiful dogs 😉
I’ll forward this post to a friend working in a shelter, the experience with the different pictures might always come in handy.
Kerry M. says
@RoseC – “I know from my side, when I meet any dog’s soft eyes, I am totally drawn to it — beyond reason — which is not a good basis when adopting a dog.”
I agree with this statement fully and yet I’m certain that if I’m ever in a situation where I’m choosing between dogs, I will use this criteria again. I’ve adopted four dogs in my life to date. Two were “they found me” adoptions and while they definitely worked out, neither dog was ever truly comfortable with or interested in eye contact. But the two I selected based on our mutual soul-gazing with first contact, I became extremely bonded with. I don’t know if eye contact always equals greater bonding with me, or if there is another variable that impacts eye contact that is a factor, or possibly this is just a coincidence, but I know I’ll use it again because, well, I’m not sure reason helps when adopting a dog. And you can just insert a shocked gasp here from my family and friends because I am almost Vulcan in my appreciation in logic and reason.
Nic1 says
@Beth
Truly horrifying reading that article but thanks for putting it out there.
Jennifer Gervais says
I purchased two puppies at different times from the same breeder. In both cases, I had made a very clear list of “musts” and “wants” for the new pup and the breeder chose the best match from among the candidates (some puppies just clearly were not right for our needs and were not considered). I did not see photos of the dogs until after the breeder had helped me make the selection. I’m glad I did that- I know I would be too swayed by a pretty face, and would too quickly pass over a less flashy one when having to make a choice based on little firsthand information about the personality of the animal. Rotten of me, but at least I realize it and can compensate.
Marjorie says
I have several comments.
1st – in defence of Goldens – I think these dogs have suffered from their own popularity and if you are going to look at statistics then you need to also look at how many more goldens and labs there are compared to other breeds. Also, because they are considered a “friendly family dog” (when actually they are a sporting breed, bred to hunt and recieve a great deal of exercise) many are owned by families that don’t /aren’t able to meet their physical and instinctual needs. THere is a great deal expected from these dogs. SO to me it is not surprising that you would see more of them in your work.
2nd – As far as pitt type dogs, I don’t think the problem is with their people friendliness, but rather with their dog on dog intense focus which can be aggressive.
3rd – what drew me to my dog was the big brown eyes. I love a warm soft eye on a dog. I also think you need to look at how much we choose dogs that actually do resemble ourselves. Sit in a dog park and watch, it’s amazing how much our dogs are reflections of ourselves. Not just in behaviour and temperment, but looks too.
Kat says
@Trisha, Ranger says thanks for the tummy rub and any time you want to send him more…. Ranger loves tummy rubs.
@Beth w/ Corgis, I understand your argument that showing a photo that implies a young child could safely walk a powerful dog is irresponsible. I agree that if the dog is untrained, lacking in leash manners, and inclined to bolt after things, having someone on the other end of the leash that isn’t able to manage the dog is a recipe for disaster. However, I have lived with two big dogs that can be walked on a leash by toddlers. Growing up I made my spending money babysitting and preferred the kids to come to my house. We had two Great Pyrenees and the bitch was a dream on a leash. I’d walk the male and let whatever little person I was babysitting walk the female. Nothing makes a small child feel more powerful than having a huge dog on the other end of the leash. Krystal made me the most popular babysitter in town 😉 Ranger also has wonderful leash manners and toddlers could take him for a walk–actually that’s not quite accurate Ranger would take the toddler for a very nice walk as he would be the grown up in charge of the walk but he would stay connected to the child via leash and behave very nicely. That said, if the person on the other end of the leash isn’t capable of managing the dog in the unlikely event that the dog bolted that person was holding the leash itself just below the loop handle and not walking with their hand or arm in the leash loop. Just because the dog is big doesn’t automatically mean the dog is a danger to a small person on the other end of the leash.
Merciel says
Both of my mutts came from shelters.
Pongu, my German Shepherd mix, came from the local shelter two blocks from my home. I picked him because he was a terrified puppy cowering at the back of his pen and I was a first-time clueless owner who knew nothing. I saw him frozen in fear and I wanted to help him, having no idea what that would actually entail. He’d been undersocialized and possibly abused as a pup, then abandoned when his college kid owner moved out and left him in the apartment.
He turned out to be severely fearful and moderately fear-aggressive (surprise!!), plus generally insane (neurotic, highly insecure/jealous, incessantly status-seeking, and a bully: he pushes around gentler/smaller dogs but freaks out when confronted by one that doesn’t back down. Also, he self-mutilates whenever I try to take him off Prozac).
BUT he’s highly intelligent and competitive and utterly devoted to me. Pongu earned his championship in Trick Dog this afternoon and this weekend he’ll be trying for his first round of Rally Obedience championships. I have hopes that he’ll be nationally competitive in 2014.
Crookytail, my Akita mix, was a long-distance Internet pull from a shelter in Robeson County, North Carolina. He was advertised as an Aussie mix weighing 45 pounds, and I chose him in part because his confused brown-eyed stare at the camera grabbed my heart, and in part I thought maybe he’d make a good sport prospect.
Crooky turned out to be an Akita mix, my best guess is that he’s somewhere around 80 pounds right now, and he has yet to earn anything beyond a novice title in any sport, because it turns out he’s a big clumsy galoot and he HATES the competition ring. But he’s great at socializing foster dogs and my husband (who cares nothing about dog sports) loves him, so he is here to stay.
I’ve gotten pretty good at choosing foster dogs based on pictures and careful discussions with the shelter staff at the Southern high-kill shelters where most of my fosters originate. I look for soft eyes, soft body postures, and descriptions specifying that the dogs are affectionate and seek out human contact. I’m on foster dog #18 and so far I have only gotten wonderful family companions — but I am very careful about cherry-picking the dogs that I think are most adoptable and avoiding any hint of ones with euphemistically described “issues.” For better or worse, it’s all too easy to do that in these high-intake, high-kill shelters, where every dog is at risk no matter how sweet its temperament.
And I try to take pictures that accurately show the dog’s features, body type, and personality (so this blog post is very helpful — thank you!). Many of my adopters are long distance too; I’m based in PA but have adopted dogs out to Alabama, Wisconsin, Vermont, and Minnesota (all to friends, not to random strangers — but the fact remains, they were adopting the dogs sight unseen based on my pictures and writeups!). There is a LOT of trust involved in these long-distance adoptions, and I work very very hard not to abuse that trust. I want people to know exactly what they’re getting, so I don’t place these dogs until I’ve lived with them for weeks and have gotten to know them as best I can.
Pictures do sell dogs. But you have to follow up with a whole lot of discussion after that initial grab to make sure it’s a good match for dog and human.
Mary K. says
The dogs chosen for the pictures in the study where pitbulls for a reason. They have a poor reputation in the general public and if the dogs used in the pictures were Goldens or another breed perceived to be “family friendly” we most likely wouldn’t be having this lengthy discussion. It seems a shame to me that a breed that was once called the “Nanny Dog” in England and was indispensable to many early farm settlers could become so maligned in the publics view because of some very unscrupulous breeders and handlers. Yes, pitbulls are used for fighting in some criminal circles-that can not be denied. And yes generally speaking many do end up at shelters and rescues because of behavior problems but so do untold numbers of other dogs with many of the very same behavioral issues. Many, many dogs.
Again, it is all about breed stereotyping. The current anti pitbull campaigning is because of man-made shortcomings in the breed. By the way, I don’t own a pitbull and up until two years ago I would probably have had the same beliefs about pitbulls myself. But I have had the pleasure of meeting some of the most lovely dogs that just happened to be pitbulls in the past two years and so I began to educate myself about the breed by attending seminars, lectures, and reading books. This not to say that one should throw all caution to the wind and cozy up to the next pitbull they meet. Just like in meeting any unfamilar dog, one should use caution and common sense at all times regardless of the dog breed.
I think the most reliable (not fool-proof) predictor of behavior is past behavior. So, I think unless you know for an absolute fact that a dog has had positive experiences with children or the elderly that it would be very unethical to try to “sell” that dog using an image or photograph that could give the viewer the perhaps false belief that the dog is something it is not.
Joanne says
Many years ago when I was so excited to get my first dog, I did play into the positive perceptions and wanted a Golden. The shelter had a mix and I promptly took her home strictly based on breed. As she grew, I really think she’s a Great Pyr/BC mix now. Boy was I out of my league. She’s not a fan of kids, pretty aloof with strangers (Got a cookie? Then you are no use to me.) and while happy to work for me, she wasn’t shy to walk away if she didn’t find the activity fun for her. Certainly not your typical stereotype of a golden.
Over many years I have acquired many rescue dogs that just wouldn’t work in another home. Some were PB, some were mixed, but in the end, it was all about where the dog could be truly safe and happy. I had ideas for performance events for all of them which they were happy to do with just me, but they weren’t happy in a competitive venue. They have all taught me so much about truly seeing and hearing your dog.
The last dog I got was my first breeder purchase. She’s a Vizsla and was a return at 5 months old due to energy. When I was going to meet her, I knew exactly what I was looking for this time around. I wanted confidence and bidability. I knew if I had those two things that I could work with anything else and that will be my basic criteria going forward. She was/is EXACTLY everything I wanted in a dog.
Just something that I wanted to mention as I think it’s noteworthy for discussion… I’m not against it, but I’m not really looking for a super social dog that will run up to say hello and welcome any stranger in with a smile. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not talking a dog with social fear. I just know that I want a dog who will work with me and not the dog that is a hostess at a party going around to make sure everyone gets a conversation when they are around. However, if I ever decided to get into therapy work, I would totally change my tune.
Rose C says
@Kerry M
liz mentioned a good point in that eye contact from dogs familiar to us could (and I believe it does) represent attentiveness. I guess that’s what I partly meant by saying that when a particular dog meets my eyes, it might be because that dog is drawn to me more than to others. And choosing a dog who might just be more attentive to me is a good start.
@Marjorie and Lisa
I totally agree that certain breeds suffer from their own popularity. Similar thing happened to the Dalmatian breed when the movie 101 Dalmatians came out, suddenly so many people wanted one. There was a surge in the popularity of Dalmatian puppies which many people didn’t realize will eventually grow into strong energetic dogs. As with the Goldens, the breed steadily remains as one of the most popular breeds in some countries and as you said, some owners do not realize the needs of the breed. Plus the fact that being an ‘all-time family dog’, some owners could end up complacent about training and teaching their dogs manners.
@Mary K
Speaking of the media helping perpetuate breed stereotypes, every year there is a list of ‘Ten Most Dangerous Breeds’. The last most authoritative study recognized on dog bite injuries and dangerous dog breeds in the US was titled “Breeds of dogs involved in human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998” performed by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and was released in 2000. What followed were studies and statistical data on dog bite fatalities gathered either by individuals or private organizations and their method of data collection are not necessarily regulated or may not always be scientifically obtained. However, the incidents reported and the method of data collection in the 2000 CDC report were also said to have some bias: the number of incidents for all dog breeds are likely underestimated; attacks by some particular breeds are more news-worthy than others; identification of dog breeds may be subjective and reported incidents may possibly be ascribed to breeds with reputation for aggression; and it was not clear how to count attacks by cross-bred dogs. (http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf).
I, too, believe that we need to help educate people about breeds and breed stereotypes. This always reminds me of the beginning of the saying, “What man does not understand, man fears . . .” However, in as much as we would like to see people understand dog breeds and stereotypes, we have to remember as well that people act according to their own comfort level around dogs or even around dogs of a particular breed. We can reassure a person that a dog is friendly, but it may take time before that person becomes comfortable around it (especially if that person had been bitten by a dog before, or know of someone who was charged upon by a certain breed, or simply just someone who has had nothing but misconceptions about a breed). A person may gain knowledge about a breed but if he/she is still apprehensive around a particular breed/type, the person is better off not interacting with the dog as yet. They may be acting out of lack of knowledge and based on their misconceptions but I’m sure in the back of their heads, they are just watching for their own safety. Educating the public about dog behavior in general is as important as educating them about breeds and breed stereotypes.
Frances says
When I retired, and could at last have a dog of my own, I made a list of essentials. In essence it came down to small breed, non-terrier, lowish exercise needs, healthy, sociable with cats and children. That just about ruled out a rescue – healthy small non terriers that are safe with cats and children are rare as hen’s teeth in rescues round here. Researching suitable breeds with minimal inherited health issues led me to Papillons, and thus eventually to Sophy’s breeder and Sophy. (The books are possibly wrong about “low” exercise needs – Sophy considers anything less than 5 miles a day a warm up exercise – but that has actually worked out well for my general health and fitness!)
For dog number two I remembered the poodles we had when I was a child, and decided on a toy poodle. I was in discussion with several breeders, but browsing the internet kept tripping over a puppy photo that drew me again and again. Not a cute-fluffy-pup-with-teddy-and-bows photo, but a fairly basic photo of a poodle pup with properly trimmed face and feet … I told myself it was ridiculous, went against everything I knew about how to choose a pup, that I could not even think of making enquiries about an unknown puppy because of a photo, that she would have been sold already… In the end I made the call, and discovered a well-bred puppy from a very reputable (if not very internet savvy) breeder, who had been debating whether or not to keep her for breeding. It was a hell of a long drive to meet her, but worth it! But I still don’t know why that very ordinary photo grabbed me so thoroughly.
So while I very strongly believe in researching breeds, or the background of a rescue dog, I have to admit to having a “That’s the one!” moment. But that was after deciding that a female toy would be the best fit with the existing members of the household, and having done enough background research to know what questions to ask about PRA, patellas, etc, etc. I am not quite sure how I feel about staged photos to challenge stereotyped views – I suppose, as others have said, it comes down to how justified those views are. In general BCs do not make good pets for people in flats who are out at work all day; Huskies are not ideal for people with open plan gardens who hate exercise; poodles are not suitable for people who want a low maintenance wash-and-go dog – all stereotypes, perhaps, but very often justifiable ones.
Marian says
I was drawn to mini poodles because they are smart as whips. In my first experience with one, I found myself talking to him as though he were a young child, and he amazingly understood every word. I think when I tell people I have a mini poodle, their reaction is either “Oh, you have a yappy little dog” or “Oh, those are so intelligent”. He’s not yappy at all and he just passed his therapy dog certification last month.
I do what I can to help pit bull owners feel better about their dogs by not judging them before getting to know them. I feel bad that the public has such a misguided perception about the breed.
Laura says
All the comments have been great so far. I’ll admit I love the look of some dogs, BCs and GSDs, but I love black dogs because I can see them more clearly and so they’re the first dogs I’m drawn to. I love labs though. I love them for their personality, not as emotionally needy as some goldens I’ve encountered and very laid back. It’s funny, when we, the handler, are matched up with a guide dog, preferences run the gammet, from people who leave the matching process entirely up to the instructors, to people who actually hand a photo of a certain breed, color or sex of dog to an instructor and ask for that exact dog. I fall I think into where most handlers do, in that, if I could have my dream guide dog, I’d want a male black lab with a very calm, laid back personality who is serious about his work. Obviously, I can’t just ask for and get those things. Forinstance all three of my guides have been yellow in color, but all three have been males and I’d prefer that to color any day. I don’t know why that is, but I like my boy-dogs. Perhaps another topic Tricia? Preferences in male virses female dogs and why? 🙂
Anyway, Ultimately, I’m drawn to a dog by their personality. My current guide is the first golden/lab mix I’ve ever worked with and I can say I would definitely take another one. He has the silliness of the golden retriever and he always makes me laugh, but the lab side of him I think, mellows the golden tendencies out and he is a perfect combination of golden fun with lab stoicism. Over the first week we were together in training, I came down with a cold. Our workouts were shorter and once in the afternoon, the nurse took me back to campus so I could nap before dinner. I put Seamus on his bed and secured him to his tie-down, which we’re supposed to do and the dogs are used to it, and then fell into bed. I didn’t know what the dog would do. Would he be needy and whine and try to get my attention, would I have to stay awake for him? I laid there, listening for anything. He immediately laid down on his bed, grabbed his nyla bone and began to chew happily on it. I felt a vibe from him, as if he was saying, relax, go to sleep, I’m just great here and you don’t have to do anything. I started to really bond with him then and his personality has been that way ever since. This trait is what I love and look for in my dogs, a calm, stable, steady but confident approach to their life and our work together. I realize I’ve written a novel, but it is such a relief to have a dog who doesn’t seem stressed about anything. I love my ball of happy sunshine. 🙂
Crystal says
This is an issue I have come across before. My dog is a Boxer/Am Staff/Lots of other things mix. Given those first two, he has a giant head. The rest of him is pretty skinny (put that head on a greyhound body). I think he is perfect. Anyway, I have had multiple strangers come up to me and say “Oh, he looks mean.” To a dog that is all wiggle because he wants to meet new people and maybe they will be his friend? Just because he has a giant head. I work very hard to keep myself from saying that that those people look dumb to me.
I volunteer at the local SPCA, and they try really hard to get people to look beyond breed and see the dog, but I have heard so many people go past the big or pit looking kids and say “oh, that dog is (not nice, too big, too much, something on and on)” and instead get the most neurotic Chihuahua puppy mill rescue. I have never seen a dog that was in a worse mental state. I hope it got some training and those people were able to understand its needs. But it was little, so it got adopted instantly.
When I got my boy, I think I looked at the photos online, but nothing stuck out at me. They have one of the personality tests for potential adopters, so that gave me a group of animals to look at. I keyed in on my boy and another dog. I met both of them, the other dog was very nervous, circled the room and never settled. My dog was exuberant but eventually settled down. He seemed much more middle of the road. I felt I would have to do less work with him. And I saw his kennel mate was climbing all over him, chewing on his leg, trying to get him to play. He was totally unperturbed. I thought, hey, that boy is pretty easy going.
And don’t get me started on stereotypes of intelligence. My next dog will be an Afghan. The number of people that discount them as dumb blondes makes steam come out my ears. They are quite smart- they just don’t necessarily care what you want. Growing up, my Afghan made amazing inferences about things that the Aussie and Papillon were never able to get. He would play tricks on the other dogs. He seemed to think in a much more expansive manner than the other dogs. When the other dogs had chewies, he would go bark out the window, causing them to run to the window and sound the alarm. And then he would go and collect all their chewies. Winning, dog style.
Pike says
“What drew you to the dog(s) you have now? ”
I am afraid to say that I picked the Beahound straight from a picture at the Petfinder website because her face resembled my soul dog Megan who had died a few months earlier. Not exactly the best reason to pick a dog.
The Pom, I never really picked. She was dropped off for the weekend “just until the shelter opens on Monday” by a friend who had rescued her the night before from a busy highway. I didn’t want the Pom in the pound – but I certainly wasn’t in the market for a mini dog, much less an elderly, stinky, matted, frightened one with a ton of health issues.
Well, neither of the dogs cared one bit about my shallow reasoning for wanting – or not wanting – her and they both turned out to be perfect for me.
Ronja is a comfortable and relaxed “Zen dog” except around the few things that get her hackles up. Just like me! So, we are both working on those “losing our cool when triggered” issues and she has taught me to be much more sympathetic and knowledgeable of the sometimes explosive connection between fear and anger.
Li’l Pixie is basically 8 pounds of sweetness and love and taught me all about the importance of voluntary compliance.
Nic1 says
@Marian
I do what I can to help pit bull owners feel better about their dogs by not judging them before getting to know them. I feel bad that the public has such a misguided perception about the breed.
I make judgements all the time when out and about with my dog. They are related to safety and environmental management and ensuring I don’t set my dog up to fail. I don’t make judgements about the individual dogs looking ‘bad’ or ‘vicious’ or ‘nasty’. But if there were two strange (i.e.unknown to us) pit bulls off leash in a field where I wanted to exercise my dog and their owners were idly chatting on their phones or not paying attention or intercating with their dogs, I would definitely make a judgement call – I would turn on my heel and walk away. I would also do that if the dogs happened to be mixed breed or any other breed you care to mention. I judge behaviour exhibited at the time by both dogs and owners and it keeps us out of trouble. I always aim to have controlled, gradual and positive introductions to any strange dogs. I wouldn’t judge any person for their personal breed of choice though.
Kathleen Janz says
Great article and discussion. (Though first PP of article on FB is repeated.) Want to call to readers attention that posting pictures of children on web is probably not a good idea (especially with the geographic information provided with Petfinders and other locator sites). Staff and adult volunteers interacting with dog via video or pictures might make more sense. I wish we did not live in such a world———–
Beth with the Corgis says
I hear a lot of bully breed owners saying how upsetting it is that people are afraid of their dogs.
I can understand on a very human level why that is so.
I guess though that it immediately generates a question in my mind: Bully breeds and mastiff type dogs were virtually all INTENTIONALLY bred to look intimidating. They were (and often still are) guard dogs, war dogs, fighting dogs.
So they have been selected for faces which are the most intimidating to people (big jaws, natural “scowls” as opposed to the natural “smiles” of many of the hunting dogs).
The thing is, if we intentionally breed dogs to look intimidating, then it is interesting to me that we turn around and fault the people who are intimidated for “judging.” They are meant to be intimidating, so should we be so surprised that they are intimidating?
Becky says
I love, love, love the bully breeds. I doubt there will ever be a time in my life when I don’t have at least one. Right now I have a 4 year old pit bull named Cairo and my boyfriend has a 10 year old pit bull mix. I’ve found that people will give him a wider berth when he’s out with the dogs, while they’re more likely to stop and say “hi” when it’s just me. That being said, I’ve had some pretty nasty comments made about my dogs. A lady in a pet store once stopped me to tell me that all dogs like mine should be put down…another told me that he may be cute but she’d never trust him…another informed me, when I asked her to stop her (illegally) off leash dog from jumping all over Cairo’s head, that it wouldn’t be a problem if I didn’t have one of “those dogs”. Anyway, he’s a wonderful dog and I wouldn’t change him for the world but you do have to have a thicker skin and are definitely held to a higher standard than the rest of the dog-owning world.
I adopted Cairo in February of 2011. I was looking for a socially mature, dog-social, people loving, cat and livestock-accepting bully, so I was prepared to be looking for a long time. I work in a shelter but nothing had come through that met my criteria, so I looked online at a rescue group that we sometimes work with. Cairo was being fostered by a professional photographer and the photos definitely caught my eye – stunning shots of him running in the snow and gazing soulfully at the camera. Just having a cute face wouldn’t cut it but his write up sounded great, too. Several hours of phone interviews, a four hour drive plus a two hour ferry ride and he was coming home wiht me. 🙂 He’s the light of my life and even though we face some adversity, I wouldn’t change him for the world. You can see a couple of pictures of my lovely boy and read our story here: http://matches.hugabull.com/
JJ says
Before getting my first dog as an adult (in my mid-thirties), I did lots of breed research and composed my shopping list of what was important to me. Then I got my dog (more on that in another post).
One thing I want to point out is how often (not just with myself, but with what others have posted here too) the shopping list is not exactly right. How often do we think that a particularly quality is vital, when in fact, we end up loving and being perfectly happy with a dog who does not have that quality at all? It may not even be a factor in our next dog because it turns out that it wasn’t that important after all.
In my case, I had been told by a breeder at a dog show that some Great Danes drool much more than others. I was told that the amount of drool is a genetic issue depending on how much the lower lip droops down vs is up and tight. Whether that is true or not, my shopping list included a row for “low or no drool!”, including the exclamation point. The very idea of dealing with a particularly drooly dog seriously grossed me out. If I thought about it, I got a bit queasy, no exaggeration.
But what did I end up with? A fairly profusely drooly dog. The slime streaks on my walls and ceiling are no joke. I guessed this might be the case with my potentially adoptive dog when I saw hi picture on PetFinder. What that drool whipped around and on top of his muzzle? (turns out, yes) When I got my dog home, he did a lot of stress panting and drooling (far, far more than he does now). I didn’t realize it at the time that he was stressed. I was walking around my house in a raincoat all the time. I almost returned him. ***And it would have been the worst mistake of my life.***
Some of that miss-match between what we were looking for and what we find acceptable will be a case of: we can’t get a perfect dog, so maybe 4 out of 5 is good enough and it truly is.
Some of it, I think, is a case of us not really knowing what we want. We think we do, but we just do not have the experience or imagination to know what is truly important. I experience this phenomenon all the time when I develop computer applications. My users are clueless about their needs. They know (or think they know) what they want, but their needs and what will actually make them happy are usually quite different. Thus, it becomes my job as the expert to figure out what their needs really are and to design a program that will not only meet their real needs, but will also make them happy.
The conclusion one might draw from these thoughts is that I would support having experts pick our dogs for us. I do actually feel that way to some degree, but I also would not go there 100%. Before getting my dog, I had interacted with a Great Dane expert (one who not only breeds them, but is actively involved in Great Dane rescue in her area) and she tried to steer me away from Great Danes and toward another specific breed based on what I described about myself (the drool thing hadn’t come up). She was totally wrong about what was the right choice for me (as well as wrong about what would be the right choice for my future dog).
I don’t know what the answer is. I just think this topic is related because we are talking about: what makes us get one dog vs another. I wonder what we could do to improve that process – especially when people aren’t clear themselves on what they really need. I’m all for pictures that bring out a dog’s personality and make a dog more visible in a good-way to adopter, ceterus perabus (sp?). But of course, as everyone here knows, that’s just a tiny part of the process.
JJ says
After doing my research and careful thinking about what was important for me and my future dog, I came up with this criteria:
> Great Dane, adult, big. Which I presumed would mean:
…….not too smart (or dumb)
…….no brushing of fur
…….shorter life (this one is killing me now – at the time, it meant a shorter commitment in case I didn’t like having a dog in my life)
…….past the puppy chewing stage
…….not a danger/aggressive to people, but would provide protection simply by being near me and being big.
> No people or dog reactivity issues!!
> Actively likes people (I hoped)
> Capable of loving me and likes to spend time with me (on couch together, etc.)
> Low drool!
> Not a big barker
> House trained
Anything else, including all obedience training, I figured we could work on together. Some of those items were more important than others.
In the end, it wasn’t really a choice. I searched PetFinder in my State every day for 6 months before an adult Great Dane came on the list. I thought he was ugly. (I now think he is is absolutely beautiful.) I was concerned that he was a drooler. I knew nothing about his background other than, “found running up a freeway.”
The point: There was nothing about that picture that drew me to Duke. He just happened to be there when I was looking and getting impatient to get my dog.
I had 2 minutes with Duke in order to make my decision. It was adoption day and someone else also wanted Duke. If I didn’t say, “yes”, Duke would go to the other person. In that 2 minutes, Duke mostly ignored me. But he paid a lot of attention to the worker who had been feeding him. I thought that was a good sign – that Duke was capable of bonding. Then, in the last 30 seconds of being in this little pen with Duke, he came to me, looked me in the eye (there’s that theme again of eye contact) and then leaned against me. I was sold.
They put my name and the other lady’s name on pieces of paper in a cup. Then they drew a name. I won the lottery that day.
FYI: So, what did I get?
I got a dog who I think is a bit below average on dog intelligence. He was house trained, but he knew nothing else, including it appeared, “sit.” (Though maybe I just didn’t say it right.) He is a very slow learner, especially for verbal commands, but he likes to learn and do tricks. He is very food motivated, including for fruits and veggies, which makes training easier. He loves spending time with me and being physically close to me. He likes to lie on my feet or my lap. He likes people and gets on well with dogs. He almost never barks, even when the doorbell rings. He’s a bit small for a male, but he’s big enough and black that I think he provides some protection for me without me having to worry about him actually hurting someone – which is exactly what I wanted. Oh, and he drools. And he is the perfect dog for me.
Dena Norton (Izzee's Mom) says
Michy, please accept my condolences over the death of your husband. I am sure that the dogs and cats will help keep you focussed in the here and now. It’s one of their greatest gifts to us.
Becky says
@em – My friend has a mini Schnauzer/Poodle mix and when we walk our dogs together we literally stop traffic. Cairo, my black pit bull, immediately becomes sweet and accessible and Roxy, my friend’s 19 pound white fluffy, instantly has “street cred”. So funny how that happens, eh?
@Beth with the Corgis – I think the issue is less that people are initially intimidated and more that many are unwilling to open their minds and see that the blocky heads and muscular bodies often house loving, friendly dogs. It’s a pit bull, therefore it’s automatically evil. If people do choose to avoid intimidating looking dogs that’s fine but making snide comments based on the dog’s breed is not. It’s hard to be understanding when people tell you your dog should be dead based on his breed. Oh, and I personally think that pit bulls have the happiest, most engaging grins out there. 🙂
Mary K. says
No one should find fault with any person who is intimidated by a certain breed of dog. I know my fear of spiders is irrational even as I am typing this and yet there it is. I guess my point is that when we speak of breed stereotypes it feels like we are implying something negative because the very definition of stereotype means a conventional, formulaic, and usually over-simplfied conception, opinion, or belief. So to me it almost feels like breed bias to some extent. We all know that breed traits can be both helpful (alerting potential owners to the high energy level of working and herding breeds, for example) and harmful (believing that bully breeds are all bred to be dog aggressive). Which leads me to ask the following question (perhaps another discussion idea Trisha)? How much of our dog’s behavior is innate to it’s breed and how much of it can we attribute to training, exposure, socialization, and shaping by life experience? The old nature vs. nuture question. I like to think I give every dog the benefit of the doubt (undoubtbly from a distance in some cases :). I am a dog lover but I’m never going to risk approaching or trusting any dog that I do not know. The key word in that statement being “dog” not breed of dog. In working with all breeds of dogs at my local humane society I have been exposed to many types of dogs and have seen behavioral issues that transcend any particular breed. Some of these are behavioral issues that would make the dogs involved impossible to adopt out to the public for safety issues but I can honestly say in my experience that there isn’t any particular breed that this happens with more than any other.
Mary K. says
I guess that last post brings me back full circle to Trisha’s original post about whether a picture of a certain breed of dog paired with a certain type of handler would change the viewer’s perception of the breed based on stereotypes. I suppose if a breed had a lot of negative stereotypes associated with it and the viewer’s opinion was altered or softened in a more positive way then that would be a positive outcome. At the same time, I would hate to see someone without proper breed knowledge be swayed to think it was the right breed for them based simply on the fact that a picture of a child with the dog makes that breed a good choice for a family with young children. Capturing a cute picture with a child or with someone who is elderly is a snapshot caught for one moment in time. It doesn’t accurately represent the next several years of actually living with a four legged friend who has real needs, energy levels, and personality traits.
Kat says
I think there is a huge difference between seeing a dog that is bred to look intimidating and treating it with respect and instantly assuming the dog is inherently dangerous. Our trainer raises and competes shutzhund with GSDs. Her current competition dog is an all black GSD from working lines. He looks very intimidating and has the skill set to back it up. When I met him I treated him with the same respect that I do all dogs. I made sure to not make rapid movements and not to loom. However, I didn’t have any fear of him just a healthy respect. I didn’t assume based on his intimidating looks that he was dangerous or would automatically be a threat to me or any dog that crossed his path. From what my Pibble (pit bull slang if you haven’t run across it before) loving friends tell me their breed of choice doesn’t command respect but more often outright fear based on the myth of bully breeds.
Beth with the Corgis says
Becky, I agree that no one should make snide comments. I have to say that personally I have met exactly one pit bull that I felt 100% safe around (I believe he was actually a pit bull/mastiff mix, as I recall— very large). And I’ll tell you why: he had a sturdy collar, a short sturdy leash, beautiful calm manners, was wonderfully trained, and more importantly an owner who said she minded his manners with other dogs, did not let him just meet and greet strange dogs, did not take him to the dog park, and had a couple of familiar, well-socialized dog buddies that he’d known for years and she let him play with. She commented that he was generally easy going and while he was not inclined to start a fight, she was confident he would finish one and considering his size and power, she did not want other people’s dogs put in that position.
The reason I trusted her was she was the only pitty owner I’ve ever personally talked to (and I’ve talked to quite a few while I pet their dogs) who actually followed the advice that is on virtually all of the pit bull rescue sites. I have gotten almost all my knowledge about pits from the rescue and advocacy sites, and am very saddened and alarmed that so few people follow the common-sense advice given there.
I regularly see pits at dog parks which is one reason we don’t go. This despite the fact that virtually every pit bull advocacy site I have read says pit bulls are not good dog-park dogs.
All advice says even housemates who always get along should not be left alone together loose, yet I know of more than a few pit owners who do just that.
Everything I read says that since dog-fighting is in a lot of the current lines, they should be carefully managed around other dogs. Because they are operating from a prey drive if they go at another dog, they don’t usually go through the posturing and noise and bluster that other dogs tend to escalate (sometimes very quickly) through. After all, you don’t try to warn off prey.
We were at a big dog event at a park and a local APBT rescue was there with two of her dogs. I asked if we could approach; I commented that I knew they were usually friendly with people but not always with dogs. She assured me hers loved dogs. I had my husband keep Maddie well back because she does not always interact well at first (she tends to stare). I pet the male while Jack said hello. Maddie was actually minding her own business, sniffing the ground several yards away and looking the other way, when the female pit (who loves other dogs and thus was taken to an event crawling with dogs) lunged at her. The rescue woman was apparently stunned (the dog was well-controlled; there was no danger). I can hardly blame the dog; she had been leashed or staked all day while hundreds of dogs wandered past. It’s a lot to ask of any dog. The point is that her handler, who works with the rescue, thought it was a good idea to take her to an event where hundreds of strange dogs would walk by her and many walk right up to her. Yikes!
There have been several articles in the paper in just the past couple years of pits locally getting loose and killing a dog who just happened to be nearby And yes this is a smallish town where any dog who is killed in front of witnesses will make the news, so this is not reporting bias.
Because the majority of pit owners I have seen here locally disregard all the advice about managing pits with other dogs and seem to be unaware of the nature of terriers in general (it can be hard to tell the difference between a terrier who is playing and one who is ready to fight because terriers play mostly out of prey drive and the on-the-toes excitement is about the same when they play as when they are in actual prey mode), I absolutely don’t trust pits with my dogs no matter what their owner says. I don’t think they are evil, but I respect the background and the muscle and the gameness. I don’t think Maddie is evil when I tell you that I trust her with my own cat, but would not trust her with yours (if you had a cat). I don’t think Jack is evil when I say I am confident he would eviscerate your guinea pig (if you had one, maybe you don’t); he might play nice at first but the first time it squeaked, all bets would be off. I don’t think my aunt’s JRT is evil when I tell you she is an excellent ratter who comes home with a bloody, scratched nose (she lives on a farm) even though she is a submissive, happy, tail-wagger with people who flips over for belly rubs the instant she lays her soft eyes on you.
I suppose if there were a million Airedales in rescue I might be having this conversation about them instead, but most Airedales come from breeders who are very careful to tell their puppy-buyers that their cute feisty pup will grow into a large, powerful dog who has been carefully bred to have his kill drive intact. But most pits come from rescue. It’s a tragedy how many are euthanized. But it has become very fashionable for young, inexperienced owners to want to save them, and unfortunately for everyone (including the pits, who most certainly have not asked to be in this situation) the message that those Airedale puppy buyers get— the one about them growing into a powerful dog with the kill drive towards other animals still nurtured— that message is not getting out as well as it should.
liz says
In addition to the nature vs. nurture factor influencing dogs’ way of being, the limits of genetics play a role. Despite the efforts of any breeder to produce litters of puppies with consistent performance ability, temperament, appearance, etc., there will be variation. I think it’s one of the basic points in the larger Breed Stereotype discussion which speaks to why stereotypes are often incorrect. (Said with hesitation as I’m unsure of the boundaries surrounding any upcoming stereotype posts.)
I enjoyed JJ’s points, story and tone- “perfect” is sometimes a fluid thing 🙂
Rose C says
@Becky
I agree with you on the pitbull grin. I always say they have a permanent smile (and Staffies have an ear to ear grin and a tongue as wide as their head). And the pitbull eyes — they melt me to the core! Your Cairo is beautiful, by the way.
@Mary K
I agree with you on using good judgement before approaching or trusting a dog that you do not know. I myself am a doglover and am generally not afraid of any dog (although I have never been that close to the truly ‘aggressive’ ones either). On some occasions, I would get intimated by a particular dog — usually if the dog came out of nowhere and I’m caught off guard, or sometimes it is just so big and confident and I am intimidated by its presence, or occasionally when a dog playing (in the dog park) makes a forward move that appears like charging towards me but actually makes a sudden turn. In these instances, I would feel my stomach and my legs go weak for about 2 seconds then I try to relax. I am not good at reading dog body language nor quick to pick up on their visual signals but my general rule is maintain distance (just adequate distance, not exaggerated) and avoid making movements that may appear ‘forward’ to the dog.
I mentioned these things because I grew up in a country where we do not study dog behavior. Almost all the dogs are mutts so ‘breed tendencies’ is something that we never think about or even know of. But, growing as a child, when there is an unfamiliar dog around (all or which are off leash), I remember the grown ups would tell us, “Don’t show that you’re afraid”, or “Don’t run”, or “Don’t look at it”, or “Don’t pay attention to it.” These were mostly ‘hearsay knowledge’. Our old folks never told us the logic behind them, I’m sure they didn’t even know the reason for them except that they work. Now that I am learning about dog behavior, I realize that everything our old folks said was true! Don’t show you’re scared (because your body tenses up), Don’t run (because the dog will run the same direction as you), Don’t look at it (eye contact with unfamiliar dogs could be adversarial), and Don’t pay attention to it (because this applies pressure to the dog).
I mentioned these things because I honestly believe that educating people about general dog behavior can be one factor in helping people avoid stereotyping dogs breeds as ‘dangerous’ or ‘aggressive’. Sure there are individual differences in each dog but there are also general rules that one shouldn’t do when around dogs they do not know. I was watching a couple of video clips where a news reporter and a news anchor were bitten on the face by a dog they were reporting on. Of course, posted comments on the videos say the dogs were showing signs of anxiety, ears back, panting, lip licking, etc. But when I first watched the videos without reading the comments yet, I didn’t even notice those signs (I’m not a dog pofessional). But common sense would still tell me not to get too close, much less put my face in front of a dog that I do not know. As horrible as I feel for the persons bitten, I honestly think they practiced very poor judgements. People approach dogs ‘ignorantly’ (sorry for the term but that’s just saying ‘lacking in knowledge’) often because: 1) humans are generally drawn to dogs and they approach dogs as they would approach another human (ventral approach, direct eye contact, hugging, shrieking, etc) not realizing that this could potentially harm them, 2) they don’t work with dogs so they don’t necessarily know these information, and 3) they never really thought of seeing things from a dog’s standpoint. So when this person gets injured by the dog, people automatically blame the dog, again due to their lack of knowledge. I firmly believe that teaching about the basic concepts of dog behavior should be included in ‘safety’ courses for school kids. Dogs are so much part of our lives and they are everywhere, in hundreds and thousands. Chances are these school kids will meet, interact, or acquire one at some point in their lives. It will be good to have a foundation knowledge (for safety), and hopefully for those who will acquire dogs, that they would further learn about other dog behaviors such as dog-dog interactions, how to manage behavioral issues, etc. My dogs are not angels, they have issues here and there but their ‘issues’ have motivated me to learn more. And the more I grow in my knowledge, the deeper my understanding of who they are and the stronger a relationship I can maintain with them.
Nic1 says
@Becky
If only every Pitbull was as fortunate to have a guardian such as you then the breed would perhaps only have the respect and not the fear and disdain that some people attribute to it. Behaviour is shaped both by our genes and our environment and that is why as guardians/owners of dogs we have to do the right thing – continually educating ourselves; maintaining the enviroment and our positive reinforcement training processes; continuing to socialise throughout the dog’s life; providing enrichment and necessary appropriate prey outlets; breeding dogs for the correct reasons – all these things can help to ensure the future welfare of all breeds of dogs and that they continue to be accepted positively in our society. It definitely is a case of deed not breed. But one can not disregard the fact that some dogs have been bred for aggression and to continue along the path of evolution successfully in our society, dogs have to be bred for the right reasons, health and temperament, particularly given the fact that anyone can own a dog, irrespective of whether they will honour their dog’s and society’s needs.
I had a look at Cairo and what an absolutely beautiful boy – to see a dog with such a powerful prey drive standing next to those other animals calmly and attentively is such a tribute to your skills and knowledge as a handler and doggy mom. Good for you. Cairo looks like he is a fabulous ambassador such a misunderstood breed.
Nic1 says
@Beth
‘But it has become very fashionable for young, inexperienced owners to want to save them’
That’s a crucial point Beth because shows such as CM on Nat Geo Wild have not helped get the appropriate message out regarding the Pitbulls and other powerful breeds. CM ain’t all bad, he loves his dogs and seeks to teach people to honour the dog’s needs. But I fear that his extremely charismatic persona coupled with his ‘quick fix’ dog psychology babble is ideal for young people to latch onto and get inspired by – if they don’t know any better of course!
In essence, thinking you can ‘save’ a dog whose very nature makes it both unpredictable and capable of causing a lot of harm (because allyou need to be is the ‘pack leader’ and your dog will pay attention to you) is a recipe for disaster. Especially when you have absolutely no experience, appropriate education or handling skills. This is not the right message to be transmitting to millions of people about domestic dogs.
Sigh.
JJ says
Breed bias drives me nuts and I feel very bad for pit-type owners. Some of sweetest dogs I have met were pit bulls. And I met them at the dog park. Every dog should be evaluated for whether or not they are dog-park-dogs or not before going. It is an individual thing. To say that all pit-type dogs should not go to the dog park is not right. It is the very opposite of what we should be trying to do with any species, human, dog or other. What we should teach people to do is evaluate an individual based on that individual – regardless of sex, gender, race, etc.
That’s not always easy and may not be 100% possible. But I do my best to always at least move in that direction rather than the opposite.
JJ says
Having just made my argument to not to be a bigot, I will confess that I my dog and I have had a series of bad experiences with German Sheppards. We have only had a single interaction with a German Sheppard that was positive. So, of course, when I see German Sheppards, I pay extra attention and am extra sensitive than when dealing with other breeds. That’s natural. But 1) at least my reaction is based on personal experience and not societal rumor, 2) knowing my reaction is not desirable or fair, I work hard to combat it. I think that what we need to do with any dog/human/cat/turtle breed bias. If you have one, acknowledge it and then work hard to combat it in an appropriate way.
(and oops, I just noticed that I wrote “…sex, gender…” in my previous post. I meant to write “…sex, age,…”)
LisaW says
The very first thought I had when I looked at the bully-type dog with the boy was the angle and position of the dog’s legs looked odd and uncomfortable, and I wondered if the dog had hip or joint problems (we have both in our dogs right now so maybe I’m just super sensitive to that leg position). The second thought was that the dog had a nice open face and gaze. The third thought was a winsome hope that this post wouldn’t get caught up in the pit bull debate. But, like any good bully breed, I’m game to offer some ideas and hopefully food for thought.
Bully breeds have been in and out of popularity and controversy for centuries. I would pose that our current bias against them has to do with a stereotype of young thugs in ghettos using these dogs as weapons and badges of honor. I know there is dog fighting but most bully owners don’t fight their dogs, and the myths of the ferocity and viciousness of these dogs (including their double-jawed mouths that could lock) was widely and constantly circulated during the so-called war on crack and our inner-cities. I feel it’s a good example of the axiom that if we are told something often enough, it becomes true regardless if it is based on any facts or not. I am not saying that bully breeds don’t have some inherent character traits, as we all do. I am saying it’s worth looking at why we latched on to the stories of these particular dogs as dangerous and driven by their genes to the disregard of all else.
The dog that some say founded Rome became the dog that a few decades ago PETA said should be “humanely put down because they are unnatural products of human perversity and that it is cruel to let them live.”
I think it’s worth looking at where our stories, myths, stereotypes come from and see what seems reasonable and what we might let go of.
Rose C says
I agree with everyone. I guess it all comes down to knowing our own dogs and ensuring their well-being (i.e., providing good nutrition, socialization, and an environment where they will flourish and thrive physically, emotionally, and mentally) while also maintaining safety for other dogs and other people (acknowledge their natural breed instincts as well as their individual behavior tendencies). This all boils down to responsible ownership. We took the dog to be in our care, let’s be man or woman enough to learn its needs and stand up for the challenges that come with it. These are the messages that we need to impart to anyone who has dogs or are planning to get dogs.
It excites me to see everyone here have so much awareness about their own dogs: their personality, what motivates or triggers them, how they react to different dogs and environments, and how everyone have learned (or seeks to learn) how to manage potentially problematic situations. To me, this shows not only are dogs attuned with humans, but that we are attuned to them as well. It’s amazing how two different animal species who ‘speak’ different languages can develop a relationship so intricate yet so intimate.
*On a side note, as I type this post I can notice my one dog is obviously manipulating me with her barking into giving her treats. (It’s sort of like positive reinforcement backfiring on me.) Which leads me to ask, at what point did dogs realize they can manipulate humans? Would this be a downside of them being so attuned with us? 🙂 Still blows my mind to think how dogs evolved into the animal that they are today. Will be looking forward for your future posts on dog cognition.
Marjorie says
I really have to agree with Beth with Corgies last post regarding Pitt owners not heeding the advice of responsible rescues and responsible breeders about dog on dog interactions and going to the dog parks. You’ll see the same advice given by responsible Akita breeders as well. This is just common sense, when you get a dog that was either bred to have a strong prey drive or fight to the end and who has the size, determination and physical ability to do major damage. Yes, there are exceptions in every breed, but one needs to be aware their dogs potiental.
I find the biggest problem with Pitts and what puts them at the greatest risk for being banned is the people who love them and advocate for them. I find many owners/advocates have their head in the sand and have a knee jerk defensive reaction of trying to convince you that all pitts are just the most loving dogs in the world and that there is NO justification for anyone to think otherwise. It’s like they have a need to defend the under dog and to prove to the world that if you just love them enough it will all be OK. This unrealistic overcompensation is not helpful to the dog. Personally,I think many who rescuse these dogs don’t have the awareness or understanding of the intensity of the dog that they have. I also find that they tend to try and deflect attention from their breed by attacking other dog breeds (they love to go after Labs/retrievers and small dogs). Pitting (parden the pun) one dog owner against another is of no help to anyone. If these dogs get a bad rap it’s beacause owners and advocates are not being realistic and responsible about how they are managing them. I don’t blame the dog at all. From the number of posts on this topic it obvious it is a sensitive issue for many. All dog owners need to support one another and pay close attention, because irresponsiblility on one groups part could lead to future restrictions for all dog owners.
Lisa Gunter says
Hello! I wanted to answer a couple questions or comments folks brought up about the study. If you have more you’d like to ask, feel free to pop them in here. I’m happy to answer them as best as I can. I’m sure I’ve missed plenty, and I really appreciate everyone’s interest in this research!
@Erin James – we also agreed that the type of collar could make a difference in how participants viewed the photos. That’s why we used the same soft fabric collar for all the dogs.
@Jen – Sophie (our model pit bull type dog) is a very sweet girl but doesn’t have the greatest sit! In retrospective, I should have considered that before choosing her for the shoot but she a really lovely girl. She does get out a few times a week in off-leash play groups with other dogs and is in fairly good shape!
@Beth with Corgis – the questions in this survey did not inquire about participants’ perceptions abut the dog in the photo’s behavior towards other dogs but were geared toward their expectations if they were to interact with them. For example, participants were asked: I would feel comfortable approaching this dog or This dog looks smart or This dog looks friendly to me. Additionally, participants were not selected from the dog training or dog professional community.
@Elise – our “rough male” model is not a hardcore biker, but does have two full sleeves of tattoos and is an awesome animal control officer!
Kelly says
My black lab was a foster dog with a service dog organization, he was disqualified at 9 months with elbow dysplasia, I couldn’t bear to see anyone else adopt him!
I had always liked Australian Shepherds (I love their size, athleticism, and unique markings!), but wasn’t sure if I could handle two dogs. I ended up fostering a smooth collie with the same service dog organization, when she was disqualified for allergies, I decided she was not the right dog for me and was able to find her a great home with a die-hard collie lover. The organization would have re-homed her, but I preferred to do it myself. I then volunteered with an Aussie rescue group and connected with a few Aussie owners. I fostered one (highly reactive to people and other dogs) for several months. I really wanted a sport dog, and decided my lifestyle was more conducive to starting with a puppy.
I met a breeder who was expecting a litter, parents health tested, not too young, mom had a few obedience titles, dad was a therapy dog. The breeder had been involved with Aussie rescue for many years, and knew the breed inside and out. The breeder chose my puppy for me, and has been a great at answering any of my health or behaviour questions. My boyfriend and I are considering getting another dog from the same breeder.
Also, I work in a pet store, so I can weigh in a bit on stereotypes. We have BSL here in Ontario, so I only see pit bulls every once in a while. The ones I have met have all been very sweet, as have the Dogos, Mastiffs, and American bulldogs. The two breeds that I am always careful about approaching are Dobermans and German Shepherds. Although I have met some amazing individuals of both breeds, I have also met a few who I have felt threatened by. It’s always good to be cautious when meeting new dogs, but I approach extra slowly with these two breeds!
Tiffany says
Well, we chose our German Shepherd base off of behavior/breeding, so looks didn’t matter much in the decision!
We adopted a dog without meeting her in person. The photos were not very clear, but in one photo that attracted the attention of my aunt she was rolling over to have her belly rubbed. There were no humans (they were cropped out) that I remember.
I also agree with Marjorie and Beth – too many owners do not take the advice that many groups give on these dogs. They are GREAT dogs in the right hands. Unfortunately they too often end up in the wrong hands – owners who don’t consider what could happen if they put their dogs in situations that the breed is not known for doing well in.
Mary K. says
When I first started by volunteering at my local shelter I definitely had to get past my own stereotypes of certain breeds. I admittedly was nervous about working with our bully type breeds. They are big and powerful. Most of them are also whip smart and learn new commands very quickly. They want to please. Similar to other smart dogs, they get bored with the mundane somewhat quickly. They like a challenge-they really do. And yes, I get that I am speaking in gross generalities here. That doesn’t ever mean that they will be the perfect fit for just any adopter. We are very honest and direct about every dog that is matched with a potential adopter for a variety of reasons. One, we want the match to be for the life of the dog. It does us no good if a dog is returned in two weeks. If a dog has a high energy level and needs great amounts of mental stimulation, you can bet the potential adopter is going to be told that is the case. We are very careful about what dog goes home with what family. Breed experience is a huge plus. We get lots of dogs (and I mean lots) who are dog reactive. If there were no dog reactive dogs out there I’m guessing that there would be a whole lot of trainers that would be looking for a different field of work. I’m not just talking bully breeds here, I’m talking every breed and mixed breed imaginable. I just find breed bias disheartening. It is sad to see people walk right past some really deserving, sweet dogs who would truly make great pets if only given a chance. I’m talking about dogs who have passed temperment tests with flying colors. I’m not a pittie owner so I don’t have to be defensive or over-compensate to prove a point. We are talking about breed stereotypes here and so the stereotype of a border collie being smart and high energy doesn’t seem quite as inflammatory as saying that some dogs are breed to fight and therefore can never be trusted. What if I changed the stereotype of bc’s to being obsessive and neurotic? I’m not implying that I think that is true(love, love, love the breed) but some people have that perception of the breed. Still, I get why people have such a strong reaction to this. Obsession and neurosis never really harmed anything in the way that a dog attack can.
Beth with the Corgis says
JJ, regarding pits and dog parks: even BADRAP says no pits at dog parks. The thing is, many (probably most) young pits are dog tolerant or dog friendly. Mine have played with quite a lot of young and adolescent pitties. It is frequently as they mature that the tendency to be dog-aggressive or dog-selective shows up, sometimes suddenly and with no prior warning.
Here’s the thing that makes me uncomfortable with it: if I have a beagle who seems to have no nose and I let him off leash, then one day out of the blue he discovers rabbits and runs off, the only one who suffers from my decision is me (and my dog, if he gets lost or hurt).
But if my pit turns 2 and goes from being dog-friendly to dog-selective or dog-aggressive at the dog park, I’m not the only one to get hurt by my decision.
I have mentioned my aunt who has JRT’s. When she had two, she would never leave them alone together. She would never get three because she says (and I’ve heard elsewhere) that two will sometimes gang up on the third and kill it. She was open that they can be cat-killers if not carefully introduced to cats, and even then can only be trusted with their own cats (and some not even that). Knowing their background as working terriers, none of this surprised me and I never took it as an indictment of the breed, just an honest description of their tendencies.
I guess I just am sort of at a loss as to why it’s ok for other terrier people to acknowledge that their dogs are scrappy with other dogs and must be carefully managed, but so hard to say about pits? The difference of course is a JRT is about 15 pounds; the number of dogs he’s a threat to is small and it’s possible to pick one up if things get out of hand.
I can tell you with confidence that my Corgis are likely to nip another dog hard on the backside if they get excited in a chase. One will do it every chase, one might not do it for 6 months at a time until something really excites him and then wham! Bite to the backside. Jack is as well-socialized with dogs as it is possible to be, we trained him away from most herding-type behavior since he was a pup (and believe me, he exhibited plenty), he is not even from working lines, but this tendency to nip fleeing things while in pursuit goes back to a herding instinct that while sometimes dormant is always there, in his genetic make-up. Acknowledging a dog’s ancestry, knowing what it’s parents and grandparents and so on back through the line were selected for, isn’t the same thing as judging people by the color of their skin. And if we start to treat it as such, we are in for a boatload of trouble. We can’t breed a dog to be one thing and then ask him to be something else. It’s not fair to anyone.
Rose C says
@Lisa Gunter and Trisha
We’re still waiting for the ‘rough male’ photo 🙂
JJ says
Beth with the Corgis:
re: “even BADRAP says no pits at dog parks. ” My point is that that is irresponsible language for a variety of reasons, including that people use it to say that all pits do not belong at the dog park. Better language might be something like, “Many pits can not handle dog parks. Here why… Because of that, we recommend that most pits stay away from dog parks. However, every dog is different. Learn how to read dogs in general and your dog in particular to see if your dog would be right for a dog park. We recommend these resources___ Based on these three studies ___, it appears that X% of pits would be right for a dog park. So, if going to a dog park is important to you, perhaps a pit might not be the right dog. Please note that this concern applies to all dog breeds. Every dog should be similarly evaluated for appropriateness at a dog park.”
re: “…with no prior warning.” I would need to see some serious studies on this before I would buy that. Most likely, there was lots of prior warning that the owner did not understand. Which would apply to any dog of any breed. My dog has played with several adult pits at the dog park who behaved perfectly. I saw these same individuals over months and two of them over years worth of time. No problems period.
re: “at a loss as to why it’s ok for other terrier people to acknowledge that their dogs are scrappy with other dogs and must be carefully managed, but so hard to say about pits?” Because there is so much breed bias in our society against pits that goes far beyond anything rooted in facts and far beyond what Terriers experience. (Not saying that there is no breed bias against Terriers. Just talking about orders of magnitude.) This bias against pits has real, unnecessary, and supremely tragic consequences for dogs and people. So we need to be very careful with our discussions about pits in order to right the wrongs. Also, please notice that I did **not**, in the paragraph above, suggest that nothing be said about known traits for pits. Quite the opposite.
I’ll also say that the same criteria applies to Terriers as applies to pits. Each dog should be looked at as an individual in order to decide what is appropriate for those dogs. Saying, “…terrier people to acknowledge that their dogs are scrappy with other dogs and must be carefully managed…” is just as much a generalization and could lead to just as much unnecessary pain as saying that all pits should not go to the dog park. When having this type of discussion, it is important to be careful with our language.
re: “I can tell you with confidence that my Corgis are likely to nip another dog hard on the backside if they get excited in a chase.” Good for you for knowing your particular dogs. That’s my point.
It’s worth having this discussion. Otherwise we would never get past it. But at this point, I think you and I will have to agree to disagree.
liz says
Rose, your enthusiasm and attitude is contagious, thanks. I also agree that educating about dog behavior will go a long way on a number of fronts.
Beth, with respect to your point on the beagle- rabbits may get hurt! Responsible ownership is key no matter what, and I think everyone can agree on its proper emphasis. There are many points worthy of revisiting to supply additional info, but a couple, just fyi: pitties can be quite small- some I’d even guess at around 30 lbs. max. I’ve met around 400 in the last 6 months (long story) and I would estimate that approx. 100 of them were med-to-sm. dogs fully grown. Many were aggressive and many were incredible (if I could wind back the clock and keep stats on a number of things that would be great). Being that the incredible ones regularly end up w/ the same outcome as the aggressive ones, that many people devote incredible energy to both safe, successful placements as well as spay/neuter, and that many owners/advocates may become sensitive after awhile, you may run into some difficulty if you want to continue your ‘mission’ regardless of setting. I don’t think anyone would stop you (!) but it may not be as easy a conversation as with other terriers. I’m not sure that helps you be less at a loss, but it may be something…
Kat says
We all use stereotypes all the time as a quick way to categorize and establish expectations. But at the end of the day all dogs are individuals and stereotyping them based solely on their breed or looks does a disservice to both ends of the leash. My stereotypical Golden Retriever may be of a dumb blond love sponge but that doesn’t stop me from realizing that the Golden that lives two blocks over is a highly aggressive dangerous dog or from reporting him as same when he was running loose. My stereotypical JRT may be of a hyperactive little terror but that doesn’t mean that Ranger’s JRT pal in the neighborhood isn’t a super-submissive cowardly custard who’d rather spend his life curled up on the sofa next to someone than anything else. My stereotypical Great Dane is a big loveable goofball that loves to socialize but all four of the Danes I know personally became unsafe at the dog park when they were four or five years old and one became stranger reactive about the same time. When we start to believe that the stereotype is the dog–All Pit Bulls will suddenly snap without warning sometime after their second birthday and immediately attack any dog they meet–we do everyone a disservice. At the end of the day they are all just dogs and they are all individuals. All of Pit Bulls I know are very sweet, intelligent dogs but many of them are a bit lacking in canine social skills and their people know it and manage them accordingly. And the majority of dogs I know of any breed or mix stop really enjoying the harum scarum of the dog park when they grow up and become selective in their playmates. It makes sense to me, I might enjoy one on one time with an adolescent but I’m likely to get very snappy and mean if you make me hang out with a bunch of them at the mall. There’s a fine line between stereotype and bias and all too often I see the bully breeds subject to the bias.
liz says
Eeeps! Should clarify that the dogs I’ve met were secured at a facility and not freely interacting with the public. All of the people I’ve been involved with do their absolute best to keep any dangerous dog out of the public circle.
Beth with the Corgis says
Honestly I think there is a fair level of anthropomorphizing that goes on: Owners of guard dogs are not squeamish about noting they have dogs that are willing to attack and hold people (given the right provocation). Owners of many breeds are more than willing to discuss that their favored breeds are known for being cat-chasers, or ratters, or what have you. But when it comes to dog-dog aggression, it is just a very different conversation.
@Kat, “All Pit Bulls will suddenly snap without warning sometime after their second birthday and immediately attack any dog they meet”…. I never said, that, BADRAP certainly never said that. What we are talking about is odds and what risks are worth taking.
I quote Bad Rap because they are a pitbull advocacy group, NOT an anti-pit group. Their website, and it’s advice about dog-dog interactions and pits, is easy enough to find online.
http://www.badrap.org/smart-socializing
Mary K. says
@Liz- thanks for pointing out that many pitties (especially American Staffies) can be smallish to medium sized dogs! Also, it is quite difficult to determine true breed origin in many of the dogs that end up in rescues and shelters because so many are mixed breeds. It is quite a common mistake to give some dogs the “pit bull” label because some of their features could pass for one. Obviously, without DNA testing it would be impossible to know.
@Kat-well said! 🙂
Kelsey says
I have two dogs, a large black and tan Airedale mix and a 32 lb, three-legged pit bull (both rescues, both adopted as adults; the pit bull came from a cruelty bust). The pit bull is very dog social, loves people, has a billion sport and obedience ribbons, basically raised my two kittens and is currently curled up on the couch snoozing with my foster puppy. The Airedale mix is wildly leash reactive, somewhat dog unfriendly, aloof with people and essentially has doggie Aspergers (she has many lovely qualities as well, but those don’t show up as much when we’re, say, out on a walk.) The number of people who will approach my skittish, barky Airedale, who is generally brimming with ‘leave me alone’ body language and ignore my smiling, wagging, loose body language-d pit bull who a) is half the size of the Airedale, b) is three-legged and c) is usually attempting to woo the people with tricks is STAGGERING. It’s a fascinating lesson in the way breed perceptions cloud people’s ability to look at the specific dog that is right in front of them and what their specific body language/behaviors are saying. Airedale is super cute with hilarious eyebrows: ergo, friendly. Pit bull is a pit bull: ergo, terrifying. And it’s such a shame, because that’s largely the opposite of my particular dogs’ personalities and that stereotyping does nobody–human or dog–any good.
I also found it pretty fascinating (/depressing) to see so many people uncritically saying, “Yes, but X thing about pit bulls is just TRUE” in a discussion that was overall a more meta conversation about the positives and negatives of stereotyping. I am unsurprised to hear that kind of commentary primarily from people who say they deliberately avoid encounters with pit bulls, and I don’t mean that in a snarky way: I, for example, don’t know very many Goldens, and thus, I don’t have very many dogs around who can counteract my own stereotype of Goldens as clingy, boring and not that bright. The difference is that my negative feelings about Goldens aren’t going to result in Goldens being banned and killed; other people’s negative feelings about MY dog and dogs who look like her tend to result in euthanasia and legislation. But, you know, I am probably just one of those defensive pit bull owners who can’t hear reason.
Becky says
@Kat – I had so many things I wanted to say but you summed it all up beautifully. While general breed guidelines can help give you a sense of what to expect, it is important to evaluate each animal as an individual. I know plenty of dog selective pit bulls, I also know a ton of dog social ones. Assuming they’re all alike does everyone a disservice.
@Nic1 Thank you so much for the lovely compliments but I can’t take all the credit – his prey drive isn’t that strong. He needed a bit of help learning not to chase all the animals but that was it and now he can wander loose through 100s of chickens and run around my horses field. But if you want to pat me on the back for all the work I’ve done on his reactivity I’ll take it, although Trisha deserves some of the credit, too (Feisty Fido was my bible when I first got him.). 🙂
Kelsey says
Oh, also a quick note to Mary K re: size. AmStaffs (American Staffordshire Terriers, which is I think what you meant by American Staffies) are actually a bit bigger than American Pit Bull Terriers: my APBT is 32 lbs, and that’s pretty average for the breed (the breed standard for females specifies a range from 30-50 lbs). The breed standard for AmStaffs just asks that height/weight be proportionate, but dogs in the show ring tend to range between 45-70 lbs, depending. Staffordshire Bull Terriers, which are significantly less common in the US but quite common in the UK, are the little dudes–their standard calls for between 24-38 lbs. People tend to use the three interchangeably (I work at a shelter, and there’s no rhyme or reason to what blocky-headed dogs get labeled on their kennel cards there) but there’s a significant size and body type difference between the three breeds. A lot of dogs that get commonly labeled ‘pit bulls’ are crosses with larger Molossers, which is why you hear news reports of “100-lb pit bulls”, but American Pit Bull Terriers are absolutely medium sized dogs: my dog can’t even manage a full Medium in her Easywalk harness (she has to wear an S/M).
Rose C says
@Mary K
My 2-yr old Cocker Spaniel/Poodle mix doesn’t have the typical curly-haired cockapoo look. Her markings and coat are like that of an English Springer Spaniel except that she grew up to only 26 lbs. Most people thinks she is a Springer Spaniel. She loves the mud (what dog doesn’t?), points my other dog when they play, chases birds, and moderately sheds her coat. I somewhat doubted the breeder, thought my dog might have come from a different litter so I did a DNA testing on her. I submitted only her name and age, my name and e-mail, and a swab of her inner cheek. No pictures, no descriptions. The DNA test result showed she is indeed a Cocker Spaniel and Poodle mix. English Springer Spaniels and Cocker Spaniels were originally from the same litter so that must be how she got that look. I know this could be similar case for many mixed breed dogs as well.
Beth with the Corgis says
I want to make it very clear that I am not a fan of BSL, for many reasons, one of which is that when you ban one breed, another pops up to take its place. There are many, many dogs throughout the world that were bred to be protection dogs or fighting dogs, and it’s easy enough to start over and end up there (Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, for instance, have very strong guarding/protecting instincts despite the fact that few of their cousins have much protection drive at all).
What I AM a believer of is education, matching dogs to owners, etc. Almost all of the breed clubs and official rescues for any of the protection and/or fighting breeds are adamant that their dogs are not for novice owners, should be taken through at least intermediate obedience training, should not be allowed off-leash in unfamiliar situations, should usually live in a “crate and rotate” situation if there are multiple dogs in the home, and so on. These are breed clubs formed by owners and breeders who are all advocates for their own breeds, who raise them and train them and love them. Passing on that information is common sense, not bias. Dogs are hunters and carnivores, and we forget that DNA at our own (and our neighbors’) peril.
If most owners followed this common-sense advice, we would not have the incidents that have unfortunately led to the clamor for BSL. Sadly, we have people who put themselves in dangerous positions (half a dozen protection/fighting dogs loose in the same house leading to the young rescuer’s death, for instance) or others in dangerous positions (man lets intact 18 month old pittie run loose in a park which leads to police horse being mauled). If these people had simply followed the advice of the clubs of the dogs they love, no one would have been in the position for the situation to arise out of control. It is a fact that most fatal attacks (as opposed to bites) of adults, and on other dogs, come from large protection/fighting breeds. The breed itself changes over the decades, but the type of dog is from those same guarding/protecting/fighting backgrounds in the large majority of cases, so yes owners of these dogs do need to take extra precautions that owners of, say, beagles do not. And every breed club out there will say the same.
That is not at all the same thing as anti-breed bias which makes people flee from a well-controlled, well-behaved dog they see on the street.
I have done meet-and-greet with more than a few friendly, sweet pitties. Jack had a bull terrier buddy in his CGC/TDI class that he used to bounce around with every week. But we did that after getting to know him and his owner and having the dogs get used to each other over time, not turning him loose with a dog we never met and an owner we know nothing about.
Mary K. says
@Kelsey-Thanks for the clarification! You are so right when you say that you never know what label will be given to what dog in a shelter environment. Sometimes it is anybody’s best guess!
Beth with the Corgis says
I had an experience this evening that reminded me of this conversation, breeds and the perception of stereotype and I would genuinely like the input of some of the people who have responded.
We had just taken our dogs out for their evening walk and were about a block from the house right off a corner. My dogs had pottied and my husband was cleaning up.
A young woman approached with what looked like an Am Staff on a leash. She was talking on her cell phone, which was held in one hand. In the other hand she was carrying a bag, and holding the handle of the leash; so the dog had full run of the length of the leash.
As soon as the dog spotted mine, he instantly went into prey drive. Play or for real, I had no good way of telling as I don’t know the dog. His head went up, his ears tensed forward, his tail went rigid and he made himself tall (up on his toes). He was clearly sighting and targeting.
I said to my husband (who had one of the dogs) “Give me the dogs” and carefully positioned myself so that I was visually between the other dog and my own.
As she approached our corner, and was about 25 feet away, her dog visibly slowed while continuing to hold his stare. He was now at the stalking phase. She still chatted on her phone, still held the leash just by the handle with the bag in that hand.
At this point, I said something like:
“Mind your dog.”
She replied, “He’s a big baby” while still talking on her phone.
The dog had slowed to almost a stop and was maintaing a direct, unblinking stare whilst I kept myself carefully positioned and made sure clueless Maddie did not stare back or bark.
Even if the dog was playing, he was way too keyed up and a directly held stare at two strange dogs is asking for trouble. My own girl will frequently start staring (herding drive, still part of the prey sequence) given half a chance; I am certain to use her cues to watch me as soon as I see a dog who is likely to illicit this response in order to avoid this behavior, as it can trigger other dogs.
Anyway, my husband (always direct) said something to the young gal like “You are ignoring your dog’s body language.” I said “He’s staring at my dogs.”
At that point the handler slowed down and I said something like “Please keep walking”.
At no point did she make any effort to get her dog’s attention. Thankfully my dogs were fully engaged in sniffing and had hardly moved. As she passed the dog turned his head to keep his stare, but as bushes got between us he sort of lost interest and moved on.
Now, I am absolutely convinced by her response to me and her body language that she felt her dog’s behavior was perfectly ok (“He’s a big baby!”).
I would bet a dime to the dollar that she feels she was just a victim of breed prejudice. I would have reacted the same with any dog as big as mine or larger. I’ve seen dogs who were puppy-exuberant and strained to reach mine in excitement, but with body language very relaxed, soft and happy even as they try to drag their owners for a visit. Jack has a habit of approaching other dogs at a run (he slows down and waits once he gets nearer) but he does so with half-mast ears and averted gaze.
I have learned the hard way to put myself between other dogs and mine once the staring begins, having been charged more than once by dogs that had been leashed and were suddenly loose due to the force of their lunge. By visually breaking the line of gaze, you can sometimes (not always) make the dog think twice.
Thoughts?
Kelsey says
Beth: Yes, it is possible that some people with bully breeds will not be savvy enough to read their dog’s body language appropriately. There are many, many dog owners who are not great at reading dogs’ body language, regardless of the breed of their dog. I live in an area full of well-meaning small dog owners who will happily tell you to pet their cowering dogs, will try to force meetings between dogs who are growling and snapping at each other, will excuse bad inter-dog behavior with “oh, he just thinks he’s big”, etc. (not that this is just a small dog thing; I just happen to live in an area with a very heavy population of small dogs, and so I see this play out a lot, as aggressive behavior from small dogs is generally laughed off.) The person you met should have done something to break her dog’s stare; I know my dogs get stared at a lot by herding dogs (which makes my older, reactive dog very tense), and it’s annoying when owners don’t do anything about that. And yes, it is possible she thinks your reaction was based on the fact that her dog was an AmStaff (which frankly, it sounds like it was.) People have mistaken ideas about other people’s reactions all the time: “oh, that person just hates small dogs”/”they don’t understand that my dog just wants to play”/ “they don’t understand [x] thing about [y] breed”, whatever. I’m not sure that this is a situation that you can extrapolate much from, though: if my pit bull were staring at your dog, I’d divert her and start playing LAT, and if your corgi were giving my dog herding eye, you would presumably do something to break her gaze too. Some owners of bully breeds wouldn’t give you the same courtesy; some owners of herding breeds would ignore what their dog is doing. Some owners wouldn’t even think it was a problem. Some might think it was cute. There is a spectrum of owner awareness/knowledge, as you doubtlessly know, and extends across the breeds. Beyond that, though, I am not sure you can draw much from your story. You met a dog owner who wasn’t as vigilant as you personally would have preferred; yesterday I met a 6 month old Chihuahua who went after my dog with pretty serious aggressive intent. Your problem wasn’t an AmStaff problem, just as mine wasn’t a Chihuahua problem.
Also, I notice you keep calling bully breeds fighting/protection dogs: I wanted to clarify that while some breeders and some lines of pit bulls were used for dogfighting, both when it was legal and now, that absolutely wasn’t the purpose for which the breed was developed. A lot of JRTs were used in competitive rat-baiting (also in pits, also a very violent blood sport), but there was a rationale for the development of the breed that had nothing to do with blood sport. Pit bulls were bred as all-purpose farm dogs and show up in the literature far more often as nanny dogs than anything else; this is the reputation of the breed even through the heyday of organized dog fighting (the first 40 years of the 20th century). Pit bulls weren’t bred for fighting; it was something some pit bulls did well (please excuse the use of the word ‘well’ in that context) in the same way that some GSDs do police work well. And while some of the larger Molossers were bred as protection dogs, this was never a historical use for pit bulls/AmStaffs because, frankly, they’re generally not great at it. As a breed, they’re generally not aloof enough: that’s one of the major reasons you don’t see a ton of bully breeds competing in protection sports.
Mary K. says
So here I go again-feeling compelled to weigh in. Kelsey, you are so correct that the unfortunate problem Beth had on her dog walk wasn’t a breed problem but an unsavvy owner problem. Lots of owners are just not that tuned into their dogs and most likely those same people never will be because they don’t see it as a problem.
Beth- I am truly sorry that so many of your experiences with bully breeds have tended toward less than positive. I suppose the only thing I can counter that with is that my own experience has lead me to a different conclusion. I personally know several pitbull terriers and Am/Staffs that would defy any negative pre-conceived notions that one could have about the breed. They are not dog aggressive and are courteous and polite and make wonderful ambassadors for the breed.
Shame on the people who use these breeds for dog fighting. They are ABUSING their dogs in the most heinous way and helping to contribute to the foregone negative stereotypes that people assume about the breed. They are not nor will they ever be good stewards of their breed of choice. They are not raising beloved pets but are using their dogs for one reason only-to make a profit. It baffles my mind just to think of it-living, breathing beings that feel pain and have no control over the circumstances of their pitiful lives. I have seen up close the way these dogs have been mistreated and horribly abused so if I have to be their voice in the world(seeing as how they don’t have one) then I will continue to advocate for them.
Just to be clear-I am NOT denying that there are plenty of dogs out there who have been mismanaged by their owners and so are clearly a danger. I am saying that it is horrible and nonsensical and mindblowing that any living being could have so little compassion and empathy that they could misuse and abuse a defenseless animal in that way. Any dog that comes from a lifetime of being raised in such a abusive way is clearly going to have the odds stacked against it. Again, not the dogs fault but the owners’ who are entrusted with it’s care.
Kat says
@Beth w/Corgis. I’m sorry you had a bad experience with a clueless owner. There are sadly far too many of those in the world; some own bully breeds, some own toy breeds, some own giant breeds, some own herding breeds, some own terriers. All of them are people that are ill equipped to manage the dog they have on the other end of the leash. In my book the person you met, regardless of what breed she might have been ‘walking,’ had two strikes against her before her dog ever noticed yours, she wasn’t paying attention choosing her phone over time actually spent with her dog, and she was using a retractable leash something that almost no one uses correctly. You’re right she’s a problem waiting to happen and sadly when it does because her dog is an AmStaff it will be reported in the media as another Pit Bull attack not as a dog attack resulting from a clueless owner not understanding how to read her dog’s body language and not properly managing her dog. She’ll be blamed for owning a dangerous breed but all of the blame for the attack itself will be placed on her evil pit bull dog.
I don’t own a bully breed. I considered one that I really liked when I was looking for a second dog. He was sweet, sociable, and eager to learn. Unfortunately, he couldn’t greet Ranger politely and while we made a bit of progress when I tried training a better greeting behavior in the end I knew I didn’t have the energy to manage two dogs that couldn’t be loose together. And that’s the point where I think we agree, people do need a better understanding of dogs, dog behavior and dog body language. Not every dog is going to be a good fit for every person. The elderly couple using walkers probably aren’t going to be a good home for a two year old Border Collie, The work-aholic that’s gone 12 hours a day is going to be a really bad match for a dog with separation anxiety; and the average pet owner would have had my dog Finna destroyed as a dangerous killer about two months after adopting her. Heck, I seriously wondered if that would be the best choice for her and I have some idea what I’m doing. I often wonder what the outcome would have been if the AmStaff I was looking at had done a polite meet and greet rather than the desperate scramble to be with Ranger and I’d adopted him rather than what we thought was a shy and somewhat fearful dog that turned out to be a totally unsocialized, fear aggressive mess with a boat load of issues. I didn’t know what I was adopting, her surrender paperwork looked good, surrendered because they had too many dogs, good with dogs, cats, livestock, crate trained, etc., etc., etc. I forgot how much people can lie and/or self-deceive. If I’d known I doubt I would have had the courage to take her on but now 16 months into this adventure she’s a different dog than the one we brought home. She still has a long way to go before she’ll be a dog I can even consider getting her CGC but every day brings progress. Today she was off-leash playing in the yard and spotted a squirrel taunting her from a tree just outside the fence, she’d climbed the woodpile and was contemplating her chances of climbing the tree when I called her. She came away from the taunting squirrel in a calm and controlled manner. There is an awesome dog in there and maybe someday we’ll see her all the time.
I seem to have gotten a bit far afield from my point there. In the end all dogs are individuals, not all dogs suit all people, people should do their research before getting any dog, and most people need a lot more education about dogs, dog behavior, and dog body language. Clueless owners are everywhere and some of them even have bully breeds but singling out just those owners doesn’t do anything to advance the cause of improved education about dogs. Dogs are dogs, they are as individual as their looks, breed can serve as an important clue about what a dog will like but just because Labs were bred to retrieve doesn’t mean that every Lab is going to love to play fetch; it just means that fetch is the first game I’ll try initiating with a Lab. Being a Labrador Retriever doesn’t destine the dog to be anything except a dog that looks a lot like other Labs anymore than being a Pit Bull type destines the dog to be anything other than a dog with a powerful chest and large head.
Nic1 says
The Dangerous Dogs Act in the UK bans four breeds – pit bulls, Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino and Fila Brasileiro, but critics of the legislation say it ignores other breeds which can be equally dangerous if not looked after properly. And I think that this is the fundamental flaw with imposing legislation like this – where do you stop? Particularly given that yesterday a 14 year old girl was mauled to death by 5 ‘out of control canines’. The dogs were reported to be ‘bully breeds’ – Bull Mastiff, American Bulldogs or Staffys I believe. The incident happened indoors while the girl was eating a meat pie and reports explain that a single dog went for her and the others then joined in.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9955558/Girl-14-found-dead-in-house-full-of-aggressive-and-out-of-control-dogs-in-Wigan.html
However, the problem per se isn’t the dogs. It is people. Lack of education and failing to manage, control, train, exercise, understand canine body language and signals etc. We let dogs down. Big time. We allow any Tom Dick or Harry to buy/adopt them regardless of whether they are able to honour their dog’s needs and whether they are actually capable of the responsibility in the first place.
It needs a serious debate at government level because dogs are unfairly demonised and are facing a serious problem in our society. There needs to be some serious acknowledgement that given current legislation and lack of regulation, that some breeds/types make more appropriate pets than others.
Beth says
Nic1, I tend to agree with your points and also fear that we are headed for trouble if this sort of thing continues to happen. Education is the key.
There is a lab that frequents our park who does the Border Collie stalk when he sees other dogs that he wants to play with. I must say the first time I saw him I really went on guard; here was a dog well into prey drive mode. I did a double-take the second, third, fourth time I saw it etc. Even now that I’m used to it it makes me uncomfortable, but it’s what he does. I’ve never seen a non border collie give that kind of “eye” and it’s disconcerting.
I see many, many terriers of all sizes greet other dogs up on their toes and it can be tough to judge if they are excited but happy and in control of if they are ready to launch.
@Kelsey, I should clarify that when I say protection/fighting/guarding breeds, I am referring to all the breeds bred for that purpose, and not specifically to pit bulls or other bullys. I know that most pit bull lines aren’t bred for guarding (some are). My point was that if you look at the breed club for Bull Mastiffs (guarding breed), they also say there dogs are not good dog park dogs and should be carefully trained and managed. The same goes for many of the other traditional guarding breeds, and the fighting breeds, and protection breeds. I have thought a lot about why no Bull Mastiff owner would feel upset if someone mentioned their dogs require special handling, yet many Pit owners seem to, and honestly I think it’s that people seek out Bull Mastiffs (which are hard to find) because they WANT that sort of dog, where as many pit bull owners take sympathy on the plight of so many in rescue and want “just a pet.”
If you read the info about dog-dog interactions at the BullMastiff breed club site, you will notice that much of what I have said here is far less direct than what is said at the club site. I presume the breeders don’t find the wording problematic, since they are the ones who must agree on what information is presented.
http://www.bullmastiff.us/about-bullmastiffs.html
I hear your point about little dogs being aggressive, but you had better believe I react differently when someone’s 7-pound Chi is out-of-control at the end of the leash than when someone’s 50-pound dog is. My dogs weigh about 30 pounds. They (and I) can manage an attack by a small dog without fearing for anyone’s life. I’m not sure if you’ve ever had your dog grabbed by the back of the neck by a charging dog who just got loose from an owner, but I have and I will tell you that it does make you much more aware of your surroundings when you walk.
A rat terrier is physically not capable of picking my dogs up and killing them. A bigger dog is. So I would argue that it is a general dog thing, yes, but that some breeds are more inclined to behave this way than others, AND big dogs that can do more damage are in a whole different class than small dogs.
If housecats weighed 45 pounds we could not keep them because our lives would be in danger. Size does matter. I’ve been charged by a Boston Terrier and it has no where near the impact that being charged by a big powerful dog does.
Rose C says
I agree with Nic1 regarding the need for the government to implement stringent policies and laws, and in my opinion, most especially with dog breeding and dog acquisition practices. In my opinion, this is largely (though not solely) responsible for the many issues we have today. There are way too many dogs bred by puppy mills and backyard/hobby breeders as well as ‘accidental’ breedings between unspayed and unneutered dogs. Many dogs with suboptimal combination of genes and/or temperament are being bred with greater risk of producing puppies that carry genetic diseases and tendencies for certain behavioral issues. With so many puppies at hand, puppies may be sold/given to people who may not match the dog’s or the breed’s needs so some of these dogs may end up being given up. Some first time puppy/dog owners didn’t realize that having a dog could be hard work, time-consuming, and involves finances and some might give up the puppy/dog. In addition, many dogs with ‘behavioral issues’ (some of which are not even true behavioral issues but more of ‘mismanagement issues’ by the owners) are also given up, as well as those who end up with large medical expenses because of their genetic diseases. This constant overflow causes pressure to the shelters, adoption centers, and rescue groups who would also need to move dogs out. (This goes back to the original topic of making a dog look more adoptable by placing it next to a child/senior — which may be done by some in an attempt to move dogs out.) Then the same thing could happen, dogs adopted out to people who doesn’t really match the dog’s needs. The person might either give up the dog (again), or keep it with the dog ending up being a potential problem with other people or dogs. I understand many of those who either purchase, adopt, or rescue dogs are well-intentioned people but some may not know how to handle problem behaviors or the resources available that can help them and their dog. This is the reason why I believe there should also be some type of a required short course before people can acquire puppies/dogs. People need to know what to expect, what really entails dog ownership, and where can they go to get help.
LisaW says
Beth w/Corgis, I think your last post made a good point and also mixed apples and oranges (or rat terriers and bull dogs). I don’t think most people would disagree that a dog charging them is scary. I also think most would agree that the bigger the dog, the scarier it might be. I also think many people wish that dogs’ people would behave better.
What I think needs to be separated out, is the fact that you are as likely to be charged by an unsocialized or grumpy Chi as you are an unsocialized or grumpy bull dog. (I’d say odds favor the Chi charge over the bull dog but I have no proof of that; my bias is that I am not that attracted to Chi’s.) Now the bull dog charge will make your heart race faster, perhaps, but the odds seem about the same to me (and your stories of dogs charging or acting inappropriately seem to cover many breeds).
IMHO, it’s not that bully breeds want to eat anything that looks at them crossed-eyed or are born/bred to charge (there’s a good joke there somewhere), it’s that your less-than-pleasant encounters with some of them (and you have also said you’ve had many pleasant encounters) leave a more lasting impression on you and may correspond with some of the bad press we read.
An interesting article in the Atlantic considers what the author called “myside bias”—the tendency to judge a statement according to how conveniently it fits with one’s settled position. We all do it, and it’s an interesting notion.
Here’s the link: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/12/i-was-wrong-and-so-are-you/308713/
Carolyn M M says
“…Did you find the dog on a website and were drawn to a particular photograph?…”
I did. I had been looking for a small dog, and I found most online choices wrenching, no matter how charming the photo. Reading further, so many small dogs had big problems, often both health and temperament related. I’d just lost my beloved Maggie after a couple years of nursing her through congestive heart failure. Now, we really wanted a healthy, stable dog even though I longed to rescue them all.
When I saw Esme’s photo, I was drawn to her size, age (2 yo), expression (“take me!”), and type (poodle/Maltese as it turns out and yes, she is “smart as a whip”). Her history was far more encouraging than so many of the sad stories I’d read: she was a surrender by a family who had no time for her (but did elect to keep her sister). There was no person in the picture and in fact, it wasn’t the most imaginative photograph, just a dog on a deck with a sort of desperate look.
I called her rescuer and we talked a long time — I had a whole list of questions. I called the vet that had cared for her pre-adoption to verify her health history. When we drove a few hours to meet her, she was pretty out of control, excited. But we’d made up our minds that she was a good match for us. She’s definitely a work in progress and I can see some behaviors that her previous family must not have liked like marginal house training and incessant barking. We’re working on it!
Nic1 says
In Switzerland, dog ownership is regulated. Owners have to pass basic practical and theory exams, regardless of breed/size, in canine welfare/training. Private dog training companies require certification by the Government in order to be able to assess dog owners in these competencies.
I have no idea how rigorous these exams are, and indeed how successful they have been in improving canine safety issues since they were implemented a few years ago. But they were introduced due to concerns about reports on rising dog attacks on children.
I’ll stick my neck out here – I would be very much in favour of a consultation process on the feasibility of implementing a similar regulation system here in the UK. Particularly for owners/ breeders of the large guarding/ fighting/ protection breeds. What harm could it do to ensure that people have controlled access to what in effect could potentially be a weapon in the wrong hands? I would sincerely hope that the guardians of these powerful breeds who are exemplary dog owners and are able to set an example of how to train, handle and manage these dogs would see this as a way forward to respect and protect the future well being of these dogs.
This recent attack on the young girl who was mauled to death by a Bull Mastiff, American Bulldog and a couple of Staffys, has stunned people here. MPs are calling for reform of the Dangerous Dog Act to ensure that owners can also be prosecuted if their dogs attack people on their own property. The female owner was a backyard breeder it would seem who was selling the pups of the Bull Mastiff on Facebook…..as well as leaving a 14 year old girl alone and unsupervised in the house with five dogs. The girl who was killed was her daughter’s friend.
It is always the minority that spoil it for the majority. But the knee jerk reaction to all this will be that the dogs will be blamed, demonised and hopelessly misunderstood. Thanks to the press reports of course. Indeed with regard to this attack, the dogs were humanely destroyed – shot by the police.
A desperately sad day for man’s best friend. Would this ever have happened in the hands of an educated and responsible owner who truly understood the nature of these magnificent dogs? I doubt it.
Nic1 says
Last but most certainly not least, this poor young girl…….what a terrible, tragic loss.
Heartbreaking, really.
Beth with the Corgis says
Nic1, I know the Switzerland scheme would not fly here in the States, but I too am alarmed by some of what I hear. I tried to find a link to reference a story I’d read awhile back of a pit bull attacking a police horse, but when I googled it I came up with so many hits I could not find the story I was thinking of. Frankly I was stunned at the number of times this has happened. MANY dogs will run horses, fewer will try to bring one down though in a pack situation, anything is possible. But don’t people know not to let their high-prey-drive dog run around loose when there are horses about? Again, I think this is where the pitties’ docile nature with people catches novice owners totally off-guard.
Your story is chilling. I am seeing more and more big, powerful dogs again. Many years back everyone seemed to want a Dobe or a German Shepherd. Then there were a rash of instances where dogs violently attacked their owners and those dogs fell out of favor. I’m now seeing a rise in popularity of the Mastiff and bully breeds. I just hope people do their homework.
We saw a cute pup at the park last summer who was a Brazilian Mastiff, a breed with which I was not familiar. I looked them up and as it turns out, they are not marked down for biting the judge in the show ring because they are meant to be aggressive with people other than their family, and to attack without training. What makes a person want that type of dog?
Kelsey says
@Beth: In answer to a couple of your points
1) Yes, a larger dog can pose a danger to a smaller dog, and I absolutely understand being extra wary of seemingly out-of-control larger dogs. My pit bull is 32 lbs, about the size of your corgis, and I am absolutely more vigilant around larger dogs that could injure her, either purposefully or in play. However, years ago my older/larger dog was attacked by a little Yorkie mix who could not have topped 10 lbs: the Yorkie attached herself to my dog’s neck and punctured her windpipe, and the only reason my dog is alive today is because of medical science and a student loan that came in at just the right time. I have a nasty scar on my arm from my grandmother’s awesome and generally sugar-sweet Chi, who was in terrible pain from a slipped disk and has, unfortunately, about zero bite inhibition. If I had the choice for my dogs to play with either a Rottie with great bite inhibition or a toy fox terrier with no bite inhibition, I would pick the Rottie every time.
2) I’m not sure I agree with your premise that Bull Mastiff owners would not bristle if you told them their dog required special handling (not exactly the same, but try telling Joe Regularowner that his Lab needs a lot lot lot of exercise and a job to keep from going insane and turning into a jerk: “No, no, no, Labs are the perfect family dog, they just want to hang with their people, etc etc.” People are sensitive about their breeds!)
That said, if your argument is that this hypothetical Mastiff owner would be more sanguine about criticism of their dog than the hypothetical pit bull owner: well, maybe. And I don’t think it’s because, as you claim, that unlike pit bull people, they actually WANT to have the breed they have (I’ll talk about that more in a minute.) My reasoning would be that they are not constantly dealing with people who want to seize and kill their dog. They are not in a position where they can’t take a job in certain regions because their dog will be taken from them and murdered (I know whereof I speak here, having recently turned down a job in London that I really would have liked to take.) They do not have to have random fights with strangers who read some article somewhere about evil pit bulls in the parking lot at the grocery store. They do not have to constantly have conversations about breed everywhere they go (sometimes positive, sometimes negative, but always constant.) They can presumably read the comments on Patricia freaking McConnell’s blog without having to feel again, again, again like they need to defend their dog. It is WEARING. I freely admit to being a little defensive about my dog, and to getting annoyed when strangers who are operating primarily on stereotypes and a handful of experiences lecture me on what I am and am not allowed to do with her and how I must and must not ‘manage’ her (not you specifically: in general.) And no, the average Bull Mastiff person may be more receptive to hearing “their dog[x] require[s] special handling”, and that is quite likely because they don’t have to deal with that all the damn time.
3) Your premise seems to be that pit bull people, unlike people who own other breeds, are duped into getting their dogs because they are some combination of short-sighted and tenderhearted. I need to stress that pit bulls, like every other breed of dog, have plusses and minuses and appeal to some people and not others; that said, I strongly disagree with your implication that people who choose to have pit bulls don’t employ the same kind of rational agency about the dog they pick that every other good dog owner does. Yes, some people might get a pit bull because they feel sad about the number of pit bulls in shelters. Some people might get an Aussie because they are “so pretty”. Some people might get a Lab because they are “so good with kids.” Sometimes people make ill-informed choices about the dogs they get. Surely you should understand that this is a basically universal phenomenon that happens across breeds.
I sought my pit bull out because I wanted a pit bull; terriers are not for everyone (though neither are toys or herding dogs or retrievers or livestock protection dogs), but I love them, and pit bulls are an absolutely appropriate dog for my lifestyle and for what I enjoy doing with my dogs. I chose my specific dog because I loved her energy level and temperament and size and play drive and a bunch of other things about her; in short, I made the exact same calculations that any other person might make with any other dog in the shelter. I know many, many people with bully breeds; without exception, they sought their dogs out specifically, and I certainly don’t know a single person who felt duped into getting a pit bull and now has an out of control dog they don’t know what to do with (quite the opposite, in fact). In the next few months, I am getting my first dog from a breeder who I’ve admired for years; he’ll be out of one of my favorite dogs in the world, who comes with an impeccable pedigree and a whole alphabet soup of titles. I want a puppy to play sports with, and I agonized over my decision in the same way that any other sport person contemplating a new dog would. The puppy is an AmStaff; I am not getting him by accident or because I didn’t think things through, and my breeder’s extremely long waiting list is also full of people who specifically want and have chosen an AmStaff (note: I’m getting an AmStaff rather than an APBT because I don’t live in a UKC-heavy area, and the puppy will likely be shown and will be doing sports in primarily AKC venues.) The stereotype that all pit bulls are owned by idealistic young do-gooders who don’t know what they’re doing is just about as prevalent as the idea that all pit bulls are owned by ‘thugs’ (or Tricia’s ‘rough male’). Whether you’re a pit bull person yourself or not, however, I would hope that my choice of breed would be afforded the same respect as anyone else’s.
Kat says
I just discovered this new blog and I like what she has to say. I thought this post was particularly relevant to the discussion here. http://beyondbreed.com/why-i-named-my-website-beyond-breed/
Sheila says
Honestly, because I run a rescue, I rarely pick a personal dog based on a photo– some that come into my rescue stay (for various reasons). And I don’t usually pick dogs coming into my rescue based on a photo. I have developed contacts that I TRUST and I go by their evaluations of the dogs. However, I am a sucker for elderly dogs in shelters. Years ago I picked a dog from his photo to be “mine”. He was an old gray muzzled Dachshund mix, named Twiggy. I was in love with his sweet grayed old face. He looked so “soft”, as in temperament, not touch. He was. Such a wonderful, easy addition to my home. He only lived a year and a half– but I am very grateful for that year and a half. Many people will not rescue seniors, but I love giving them warmth and love for the last few months or years they have. A few months after I lost Twigs, I was looking at the same shelter web site. They had ANOTHER gray muzzled Dachshund mix. A female, named Sweetie. I thought she could even be related— just a smaller version of my Twigs. Tweety (her new name) turned out to be a fake. Her soft expression belied a bit of attitude with other dogs. Her gray muzzle (and body) was just her coloring. ;o) I have had her 7 yrs now… she is finally starting to age a bit. Oh well… I TRIED to rescue another sweet old dog… ;o)
Mary K. says
@Kat-I just finished reading the link you provided and I wanted to say thanks. You have remained a solid voice of reason throughout this entire discussion.
It seems like some people have been clearly oppostional in regards to what they are willing to consider which goes to prove the point all along that when people have a preconceived notion fixed in their minds, it is very difficult to change it. Stereotypes, for better or worse, are a powerful, deeply imbedded thing so in terms of pictures being able to change someone’s perception? I’m going to say that for some people it wouldn’t matter if the dog where photographed with Mother Theresa herself. Or small children. Or cats. Or bunnies. Or apparently horses…………..
Beth with the Corgis says
Kelsey, without answering you point by point, while it may be true that most of the pit bull owners you know all are wonderful responsible owners who have lovely dogs, please realize that is not true everywhere.
We never had pit bulls around here; I never saw one til I was about 30 years old and I’ve always been an animal lover who went out of my way to try to meet every animal I came across.
Sadly, when out-of-town drug dealers moved into the area, the pit bulls seemed to come with them. We went from having virtually no pits in our shelter just a few years ago, to having probably 75% of our shelter dogs pits or pit mixes. Dogs are picked up from drug raids and brought in. Not saying that is all of them, but that is a lot of them. Many of these dogs were not bred to be sweet and loving family companions. It is not the dogs’ fault, but it is what it is.
So please do understand that everyone’s experience is not your own, and when I am walking my dogs and making judgement calls about how to handle certain situations, I must base them on the facts on the ground in my own city. You have your reality of feeling you need to defend your dog at every turn. Other people have a reality of having one too many bad experiences with a certain type of dog. Both realities are true. One is not more genuine than the other.
In my state, BSL is illegal and I’m glad that is the case. I would never support BSL. No one should have their pet confiscated just because of how it looks.
But we do not have an active community of responsible breeders with well-informed owners doing dog activities here, not when it comes to Pits/AmStaffs etc. I have only told you about half of my stories regarding these particular dogs. My bad/sad experiences with pits outweigh those of all other dog breeds/mixes combined.
That being said, most of what I have said here about pits, prey drive, and other dogs comes directly from pit bull advocacy web sites. I begin learning what I could after my first experience with the breed came to a very sad ending.
@Kat, the website is interesting. When we direct people on how to find a puppy, we start with talking about breeds (or more often groups) of dogs and appropriateness, then talk about the importance of talking to breeders, finding what they are breeding for and what their goals are and what their dogs are like, then moving down to carefully having a puppy selected based on what you are looking for and the breeder’s knowledge of her own lines.
Choosing an adult is a little different for quite a few reasons, but the basic principles are the same. Choosing an adult can be difficult because while the common adage is that the dog you see is the dog you get, the fact is most dogs in a rescue or rehoming situation are not at all themselves and you frequently find that after about two months you see a totally different dog than what you thought you were getting, so again having a sense of what you are looking for is important if you are to have a happy match. A fair number of adopted dogs get returned to shelters because they don’t work out, and breeders who rehome adult dogs generally give a two-month trial or so, to give time for adjustments.
Certainly I hope that no one here thinks that respecting breed traits means all dogs of a breed are interchangeable and you can just sort of stick your hand in and randomly pick one….
Nic1 says
My views are idealistic but stem from a desire to protect the domestic dog in general. Why should any breed be singled out as bad or vicious when it is people who have failed them? Proficiency and regulation could aim to protect dogs from owners who really don’t have what it takes to care for a dog in the first place. But it woukd never be prioritised here.
On our national radio today, they were actually discussing that it was time to ban the Staffordshire Bull Terrier on the back of this recent attack. Crazy…..such a fabulous dog and very much loved and respected by fellow dog guardians. The media are inflammatory and love to polarise opinions, often without data or empirical evidence, they simply rely on people’s emotions and opinions to drive these debates. The English Staffy has unfortunately been tagged as the vicious poster dog. But that’s because we have banned pitbulls. If we didn’t have individual breeds, perhaps we would fail to stereotype our dogs. Because if they were all mutts, then who would really get judged? The indvidual dog or the handler?
I’m sticking with mutts. They don’t seem to get tagged with any stereotypical baggage!
Kelsey says
What a great site: thank you, Kat!
Beth with the Corgis says
If anyone is interested, here are some interesting articles on the heritability of behavior in dogs.
http://actavet.vfu.cz/pdf/200776030431.pdf
There is a pretty strong body of science that indicates much of our dogs’ behavioral tendencies are genetic; early socialization and later experiences play a very strong role, true. But the genetics play a starring role as well.
The fox research is fascinating, especially when you see how quickly the changes came about. What I found very interesting (but not surprising) in the linked article are the first few examples that show how different breeds of puppies react to different learning situations. For instance, if puppies were shown food and then a person made a loud clap and left the room, none of the Sheltie puppies would go back near the food (Shelties are usually soft dogs) while ALL the Basenji puppies went to the food (Basenjis are more tame than domestic). For the beagles, it depended on how they were treated.
I learning to heel, ” Basenjis fought the leash and often pulled ahead or lagged behind; Shetland sheepdogs interfered with the trainer, that is, tangled the leash around his legs. Beagles vocalized in protest. The breed differences in performance were evident on the first training trials and persisted, even though all the dogs improved.”
The fearful pointers were a study group I was already familiar with, and I was well aware of the aggression in English Springer Spaniels. They were my favorite breed for years, but this relatively new tendency for blind aggression in otherwise sweet dogs steered me away from them; I did not trust myself to screen breeders well enough.
Kat says
I’ve only met one pit bull mix that I know was seized in a drug raid. He worked for the police department as a drug detection dog and visited my classroom several times. The K-3rd graders loved him. He set departmental records for the amount of drugs and drug cash seized. He recently retired.
It is the use of all or nothing language when describing dogs and breeds or types that I resist. Having grown up in a meth house, where he was supposed to be a fierce deterrent, didn’t stop the K-9 officer I knew from being a sweetheart with a tremendous work ethic when given the chance or from playing nicely with the other dogs at his handler’s home.
And @Beth w/Corgis you’re absolutely right that adopting an adult from a shelter can be a crapshoot as what you see isn’t always what you get. I thought I was getting a shy dog and instead I got a total mess that we refer to as psycho bitch. Yet, my psycho bitch went to the vet today because she wasn’t putting weight on her right hind. The vet staff knows she’s a work in progress and we work together to manage her. If I may be allowed some off topic bragging. Finna managed to sit by my side while the tech took her history, she managed to stay sitting by my side and only offered a couple soft growls at the vet. Four months ago when she was in for her rabies vaccination mandated by the state, she growled fiercely at the tech and lunged at the vet. I see on a daily basis that background isn’t destiny, that dogs can heal and learn better behaviors. Would she have done as well in less committed hands? Absolutely not, as I’ve stated before in inexperienced hands she would have ended up dead by now. Not all owners are equipped to handle all dogs, I completely concur on that point but it isn’t strictly a breed thing, it is a dog thing. Oh, and the diagnosis is either a partially blown knee or soft tissue injury. We’ll know in a few weeks after the pain meds and anti-inflammatory coupled with rest has a chance to do its job.
LisaW says
Kat,
I’m so sorry to hear about Finna’s knee injury. I’m just starting to come off a year of Olive’s partially (maybe) torn CCL. I would be more than happy to share some excellent resources with you on Conservative Management and what we did to help heal her. Soft tissue or partial tear, many of the protocols are the same. She, too, is a dog with issues, so the restraint and rehab was extra hard on us all.
Not sure of the etiquette of sharing contact info?
Trisha says
First, I want to thank everyone for their comments on the discussion that this post has generated. I have read every one, but I regret that I have stayed quiet throughout it. My silence has had nothing to do with the content, but rather being off the grid on vacation for awhile, and then returning to the predictable overwhelm and trying to catch up. I’m not sure I have much to say that hasn’t been said, but here is my take on the issue of breeds and breed stereotypes.
Perhaps some of the differences in opinion can be explained by the fact that the entire concept of “breed” is in itself a contradiction. On the one hand, the creation of a “breed” is a conscious attempt to produce a predictable set of physical and behavioral characteristics. Thus, in a way, a “breed” is a conscious effort to do exactly what stereotypes do. Here’s one definition of stereotype: “A widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.” Since breeders are attempting to create a ‘fixed image” of a particular type of dog, surely breeding purebreds in itself is in some ways creating stereotypes of certain breeds.
It is the “oversimplified” that creates the contradiction here, because although every breed has predispositions, sexual reproduction ensures that individuals are never clones of each other, and each individual varies tremendously from any other, including in tightly bred lines of dogs. Thus, as has been well described, not all Border Collies herd, not all Golden Retrievers love children, and lots of pit bull types love other dogs.
But this is where the other end of the leash comes in, first in the fact that many dog owners have oversimplified expectations of any particular dog. Worse, some owners are attractive to potential qualities in their dogs that others find aversive or downright dangerous. I sympathize with Beth with Corgis who lives in an area in which many/most of the pit type dogs are raised and handled by people who, at best, mis-manage them. It is hard to imagine living in such an environment and not making assumptions about the potential danger of seeing a particular breed of dog. I remember watching Dalmatians with a jaundiced eye for a year or two after two of them attacked Luke, even though their behavior had nothing to do with being “Dalmatians”. And I remember being at a dog park and instantly going on alert when two pit types began running directly toward my dogs, silent, heads down, laser focused on Pip and Lassie. The owners were far away and appeared to be oblivious. Because of their behavior, their size, and yes, I’ll say right off, their breed, I was quick to get between them and my dogs. Would I have behaved the same way if it was 2 dogs of another breed? Yes, because of their behavior, there were 2 of them, and the lack of behavior from the owner. But did the knowledge that, in general, more pit types than Vizelas are dog-dog aggressive affect my behavior? Of course. Just as it does when I see a Heeler start to open it’s mouth around the back leg of a dog running away from it, or a Dachsund about to dig in my garden. Would I have been as concerned it the dogs were toy poodles? Probably not, because size does matter when you are talking about the potential of aggression, no way around it
Most importantly, surely we’re talking here about an interaction: Between a breed predisposition and the behavior of the human at the other end of the leash. As Beth pointed out, she lives in an area in which drug dealers moved into the neighborhood and brought with them fighting dogs. I live in an area in which a line of aggressive Golden Retrievers paraded into my office one after the other until the breeder finally stopped creating Cujo’s with nice coats. I guess what I am arguing is that we simply can’t talk about just “breed,” and “individuality’ and “owner” without understanding that those three factors are always involved in the behavior of any adult dog. Not so handy for people who want to “oversimplify,” but relevant and important nonetheless.
JJ says
re Beth’s:
“We saw a cute pup at the park last summer who was a Brazilian Mastiff, a breed with which I was not familiar. I looked them up and as it turns out, they are not marked down for biting the judge in the show ring because they are meant to be aggressive with people other than their family, and to attack without training. What makes a person want that type of dog?”
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s shocking. Truly, my jaw has dropped.
Beth with the Corgis says
@JJ: Exactly! My own reaction.
Trisha, thank you for your thoughtful answer. I know some people here have read my responses and heard “All pit bulls are scary and to be avoided” and while that is not what I felt I was saying, I also understand how emotion and lack of facial contact can make things sound.
When we had a CGC class with a lovely little English Bull Terrier, I was able to meet and speak to his owner, and see the dog in action. I also was able to ask her directly how her dog was with other dogs and not get just a gushy “Oh my gosh he loves everyone” which is true of almost no dog. Based on observation of owner and dog over a period of time, I had no qualms about letting Jack rough-house with him (and the fact they were the same size surely helped as well).
If I were in a training class or at a dog event with a savvy owner who had an Am Staff or Pit, I would have no trouble accepting his or her observations about her own dog and let Jack make the call; I feel I read dogs better than many but I am very far from being expert at it, while Jack is a stellar judge.
What I resist whole-heartedly is the push I see in so many places to say “It’s all in how you raise them” and “fighting dogs must be abused and tortured to fight” and those things. That flies in the face of all we know of inheritability of behavior, innate temperament, and works directly against the reasons why we educate people on how important it is to find a good breeder who knows dogs and not just get a pup from the flea market, pet store, or the person with 100 dogs in a barn.
Breeding tells, but perhaps that is a discussion for another post. Some dogs are always going to be good, no matter how they are treated. Others (fewer, thankfully) will turn out dangerous (to either people or dogs) given even the best starts in life. Many fall somewhere in between.
JJ says
Trisha, thanks a bunch for your comments here at the end. I don’t know how many people come back to read the end of a long thread like this, but I did and appreciate your thoughts (along with everyone else who has contributed).
I thought I would share a story that happened to me yesterday at a dog park. This is not to make any point at all, but to be amusing in light of this conversation.
So, my Great Dane and I see another Great Dane. I (literally) ran over to play because we don’t often see Great Danes at our park. My dog, Duke, followed me. I have a 9 year old male. I found out the other dog was a two year old female who was having her first visit to the dog park after being spayed.
The female was interested in playing with Duke, but Duke did not find the female that interesting. Pretty soon, Duke went one way and the other dog went the other way. I was talking with the owner of the other Dane when we heard loud small-dog, panic yipping and a lot of yelling from the people near by. The female Dane’s owner ran over and pulled his dog away from another dog.
I found out that the female Dane had grabbed the back of the neck of a very small dog and was dragging and shaking the small dog. The owner of the small dog said that her dog likes to play with big dogs, is used to getting rough-housed, and has never made a sound before. So, she not only took it very seriously, but believed that her dog was truly scared and for good reason. The owner of the Dane said that his dog had never done anything like that before. (I have no idea if that was true or not.) He obviously felt very bad, apologized and left immediately.
The small dog was shaking. My dog is excellent, never having shown predatory signs, around small dogs. So, I stayed longer than I wanted to stay. I encouraged the small dog owner to put her dog on the ground and to be able to approach my dog (if the small dog wanted to), so that the small dog would not develop a phobia of large dogs. This plan seemed to work great as the small dog stopped shaking, sniffed my dog, and later tried to engage Duke and other large-ish dogs in play. Hopefully that cute little dog will not generalize that one bad experience into the future.
So, for the next half hour, I was standing around talking to the owner of the small dog and several other, new people who came and went. And at least three people said things like the following as they pet or watched my dog, “Oh, Great Danes are always so sweet.” 😉
Mary K. says
For anyone interested I highly recommend the book The Lost Dogs by Jim Gorant. It is very well researched and written by of all things a Sports Illustrated writer and gives an in-depth coverage of the Michael Vick case. It talks not only about the dogs in the case but about how the case was handled from a law enforcement standpoint. I read it a few years ago and truly found to to be a fascinating read.
Also, I would like to recommend an article in The Bark magazine by Susan McCarthy. It also deals with what happened to the dogs in the Michael Vick case and gives hope that dogs will be judged as individuals and not just as a certain breed. I think the site is as follows:
http://www.thebark.com/content/better-life-michael-vick%E2%80%99s-pit-bulls#
I am not trying to glamorize a certain breed of dog because that seems to be the current trend right now. I just want us to look at all dogs as the individuals they are. Of course life experience helps us to shape the way we view the world and the people and the dogs in it. So I certainly don’t want to diminish someone’s personal experience. I would just like there to be a balanced approach so that we don’t make automatic assumptions about anything whether it be a dog or a person for that matter. There is a huge danger in that.
When it comes to dogs we don’t know, I would say that practicing good judgement and caution is the best way to keep ourselves and our beloved pets safe.
I apologize for not being to put the the web page in as a link. I’m just learning to navigate these things and consider my technological skills a work in progress 🙂
Mary K. says
Oh hey! What do you know- the link worked! Yippee! 😉
Beth with the Corgis says
Mary K, I have followed the Vick dog story with some slightly mixed feelings. I’m happy to hear that several of the dogs appear able to lead very normal lives. I have less positive feelings about the handful of dogs who will live out their entire lives in sanctuaries. Is that a great life for a dog? And with so many dogs in need, is it the best use of resources? Should dogs so keen to fight that they can’t be trusted outside of a sanctuary be kept? Those, I think, are very difficult questions and unless we do a better job, as a society, of phasing out dog fighting it’s a question we will all be faced with too many times.
I would hope that anyone who wants to own a dog of any size or any background will keep several things in mind (and I’m not at all sure the average pet owner knows these things).
1) Aggression is highly heritable; if you have a dog from WORKING guarding lines or WORKING fighting lines, there is a good chance that the potential for that behavior is there. Sometimes, though, it takes a trigger; Bull Mastiffs, for instance, are known to use their own judgement so your dog might live peacefully with you for years til your teenagers boyfriend gets in a shouting match with her. If your dog is from unknown background and is from a breed still used to do protection work, please play things on the safe side and don’t put the dog in a position where its heritage might kick in.
2) Human aggression and dog-dog aggression are entirely different things and are inherited separately. The fact that your dog is a sweet face-kisser has no bearing on how it will be with other dogs. A dog that adores other dogs and plays nicely with everyone might have a short fuse with people. And dominance aggression is not at all the same as protection aggression or prey aggression or fear aggression. Protection-aggression dogs are more likely to bite strangers and heavy socialization is mandatory to help them learn to separate normal behavior from threatening behavior. Dominant-aggressive dogs, on the other hand, are much more likely to bite the owner and much less likely to bite someone outside the home; your vet, however, should be told if your dog is dominant-aggressive, even a tiny bit.
3) Dogs don’t see tiny children the same way as they see adults. Your high prey drive Yorkie might pose no threat to the adults in the room, might never have bitten, but don’t assume he knows the newborn baby in the house is a little person. Too many tragedies have happened involving babies and dogs.
4) Any dog sufficiently smaller than yours might be seen as prey by your dog, even if it is otherwise good with dogs.
5) Dog-dog aggression frequently does not show up until the dog hits social (not sexual) maturity at around 18 months to 3 years of age. The fact that your dog has always been fine is not always a predictor of future behavior if your dog is under the age of about 2 or so.
I think if all those facts were more widely known, you would see both less breed prejudice, and fewer of the types of incidents that tend to lead to breed prejudice to begin with. And then we could all be happy and live in agreement and harmony forever. 🙂
@ JJ, the Dane’s owner may well have been telling the truth. I consider Jack to be the closest thing to bomb-proof with dogs that you can get. Maddie can be a little squirrely because she likes to stare, bark, and sometimes nip but she is not at all aggressive, just does not properly handle her excitement. On her own, she plays beautifully with dogs smaller than herself; the herdy thing comes out with bigger dogs.
One day they were both having a game of chase with a tiny little Yorkie, maybe 6 or 7 pounds. The little guy was very fast and they were both having a great time chasing him. But them I saw the sparkle in their eyes turn to a bit of a glint, and they looked just a little too fixed in their focus for me. Their faces lost their happy grins and their mouths started to tense a little.
The shift was subtle, but you better believe I hauled them out of there and leashed them up in a hurry. I may have been overly cautious, but in my mind they went from “Hurray, dog chase!” to “Is that a rabbit?” as the chase progressed. The line between play and predation can sometimes be just a hair’s breadth wide. Whenever mine play with dogs smaller than themselves, I watch them like hawks even though Jack is 6 and Maddie 8 and we’ve never had an incident. Similarly, I watch carefully when Jack plays tag with the cat. Corgis are many things, but “gentle” is not a word I would use to describe them.
Nic1 says
We sometimes forget that there is no single gene that codes for a for a dog to retrieve, to herd or to guard. A Golden Retriever has a golden coat due to a point mutation, but whether he retrieves or not is down to the gamble of sexual reproduction. There are no guarantees with breeds.
In our politically correct western societies, stereotyping within our own species is positively frowned upon. I shan’t comment any further on that! But when it comes to our dogs and behaviour, it is hardly the same context. It’s important to understand the nature of breeds in order to make sensible decisions related to safety. When we experience problems with a type of dog or behaviour, our amygdalae will be firing on all cylinders in any future encounters. It’s part of our alert and survival system. In my case, it’s Chocolate Labradors – having had too many experiences with a couple of particularly predatory dogs recently whose owners are oblivious to the behaviour their dog is exhibiting. Before logic can kick in, my adrenal system is already primed! But it keeps us safe. As a side note, a ‘cross-over’ dog trainer, who has worked with and trained gun dogs for over thirty years mentioned that they may be some issues with breeding and aggression in chocolate labs over here in the UK – no one wants to work with this breed anymore on shoots.
I witnessed a very troubling behaviour walking through the town today – two Pugs were set on by a group of people who just thought they were so irresistibly cute, they could not resist forcing their affection on to them. Now there is a stereotype which I do find troubling – breeding dogs to look cute knowing they can suffer awfully with health issues. And all due to some people’s desires to have a dog with a flat, neonatal – like face.
Mary K. says
Beth-I too have followed the Vick case with very mixed emotions. I am also not 100% convinced that dogs living out their lives in a sanctuary is the best solution. It definitely comes down to a quality of life debate and I know that shelters (and I would assume sanctuaries, although I have no personal experience with them) are extremely high stress environments for dogs. Many dogs go what we call “kennel crazy” and it has been my experience that the smarter or higher energy of the dog, the quicker it happens. So yes, obviously not a great quality of life for the long haul.
And I definitely get that aggression is highly inheritable. I am truly not some rosy eyed optimist that thinks that with the right amount of love and committment you can tame the beast so to speak. I get that there are dangerous dogs that under no circumstances should be placed with anyone. Our policy is too humanely euthanize a dog that is aggressive. It is a safety issue pure and simple.
I guess I shared the link to show that even in the Vick case there were dogs who were victimized and came out the other end of horrible life circumstances with something valuable to offer. Of course these dogs were evaluated by the proper professionals. Just to be absolutely clear, I am not recommending that “average Joe dog owner” would be a good fit for a dog with this type of background. Or that all of these dogs could or should be placed with people. I am saying with the proper evaluations and proper expertise and proper committment in place, who is to say what dog might make an excellent therapy dog or earn it’s CGC certification if only given the chance.
I do agree with all your points regarding aggression and the many different ways it manifests itself in our canine companions. Everyone of your points is valid and surely there would be a whole lot less dog bites and dog attacks if people had more general knowledge about dog behavior and dog body language. But to me this post was never really about dog aggression but about the way in which we perceive or “stereotype” dogs of a certain breed and whether that perception shifts if they are pictured with different handlers. Perhaps it is simply a matter of semantics and interpretation on why we seem to be so divided about this.
It is obvious to me that you are extremely passionate about our canine friends and quite knowledgeable as well. And that is ALWAYS a good thing in my book. 🙂 I bet that there is way, way, way more that we agree upon than disagree, that’s for sure.
Sarah says
I’m not sure “stereotype” is a fair accusation to make in terms of dogs, any more than the more hysterical accusation of “breed racism” that you often hear from pit bull fans. The breeds were developed to have X qualities enhanced. That’s just the point of a breed or a type. It doesn’t always work – I had an atypical husky/terrier mix who wasn’t at all predatory and didn’t roam. But it’s more likely than not that your pit bull will have significant dog-aggression. And that’s a huge, huge issue with a dog as strong and stubborn as a pit bull.
“Human aggression and dog-dog aggression are entirely different things and are inherited separately.”
Although this may be true in a behavorial sense, it is not true in a practical sense. In other words, many dog bites and maulings seem to occur in the midst of a dog-on-dog attack. And not just the simple “reach in” injuries. I’ve noticed quite a few news stories about serious maulings wll mention, almost as a throwaway, that the encounter began when a dog (usually a pit bull) attacked another dog (often smaller, non-pit bull). The victim’s owners/handlers attempt to save their dog and are badly bitten because the pit bull, highly aroused and not obsessed with killing the dog, begins biting humans.
Martina says
A few words on effectiveness of Swiss regulation of dog ownership.the area where I live is called ‘3 countries corner’ – where Germany, France and Switzerland meet. The major flaw to the Swiss system is that while theory classes can only be performed by schools or clubs that received accreditation by the Swiss government, this does not apply for practical classes. These can even be attended in Germany or France, with absolutely no control or verification of what has been learned – only attendance counts.
The law only applies to owners getting new dogs, though no matter if they had a dog before or not. The big problem that remains is that despite the Swiss having to pay a tax for their dog/s, nobody knows how many of them are new ownerships. Statistics suggest that less than a third attended mandatory classes. French and Germans shelters are full with Swiss persons looking for dogs to adopt, I wonder if that might be one of the reasons.
I guess, none of you would be surprised that if I told you that all the Swiss I’ve talked with so far, especially those who had dogs before, are against this law?! Which,in my opion, is one of today’s problem.
Another huge problem Switzerland has with this law, is that the trainer they mainly cooperated with, has come under scrutiny for his ‘not so tender’ methods. As always, it’s difficult to find out if these allegations are serious or have been launched by ill-meaning competitors.
All in all I believe that the Swiss law is a step in the right direction, cause its never wrong to learn how the view on certain aspects in canine education has changed and the only criteria that makes classes mandatory, is wether how long you had the dog. The only law in Europe i know of that doesn’t focus on breed. (don’t get me started on the French law which is extremely biased and leaves the decision wether dogs of a certain breed are allowed to live in the hands of the mayor – no matter what vets specialised in behaviourism diagnosed)
@Trisha
Thanks for taking your time to follow all the comments. I recently learned that the breeder who is responsible for Robby’s (Golden Retriever) father is about to shut down. Which can’t be early enough, as she – despite being a judge for the SCC (society canine centrale – French national dog association) – doesn’t know the basics of genetics and only breeds for looks.
Nic1 says
Martina thanks so much for your post. I think like you say it’s definitely a step in the right direction despite some of the problems encountered. However, it’s concerning to hear that the methods of training don’t appear to be consistent, aversive and that conflicts of interest with trainers are perhaps driving complaints! Once again, the other end of the leash is where the problems often are…
Dog breeding in general is an area of great concern. The show ring has a lot to answer for with breeding for form not function but there are campaigners and welfare organsiations who are trying hard to drive change here in the UK, as I am sure in other countries too. There is a huge amount of work to do though as a lot of hobby breeders are just so resistant to change, even when the evidence is before their very eyes (their dogs) are suffering and in pain. Education is empowering though and puts people in better positions to make more informed choices in the future, so we just have to keep at it.
And that isn’t even mentioning the illegal trafficking of puppies out of Eastern Europe form horrendous puppy farms – riddled with disease; transported in horrible conditions etc.
Kat says
I’ve been rereading this extended conversation and as usual I am amazed and inspired by the wealth of knowledge, commitment to their dogs, and thoughtful sharing of ideas that you spark with your blog posts, Trisha. It strikes me that there are so many types of stereotype at work when considering dogs. Yesterday when I had Ranger out for a walk we met a man with his dog. The dog was walking calmly at heel, relaxed and showing no signs of arousal but I didn’t allow a meet and greet because the dog was wearing a prong collar and my stereotype is that if you’ve resorted to a prong collar you don’t think your dog can be trusted. Nothing I saw from the dog itself gave me cause for concern just the collar and my immediate assumption that that kind of collar means a dog that the owner is uncertain about.
Our perceptions are filtered through our own stereotypes built on personal experiences and information gleaned from sources we trust. I live with two shelter mutts one of whom is a rehabilitation project. I’m much more likely to place my emphasis on nurture rather than nature because that’s what I see making the most difference for my dogs. Living with two carefully researched and selected purebreds, Beth w/ Corgis sees the influence of nature more clearly and no doubt, simply because it is human nature, we’ve both sought out information and preferred that which supported that which reinforces our personal experiences. Because my dogs are not definitively a particular breed or even mix of breeds and I adopted them as year olds I have no idea what their breeding might be. Ranger, looks like a supersized English Shepherd, or an undersized Leonberger, or a cross between a Border Collie and Bernese Mountain Dog, or Australian Shepherd/Saint Bernard cross, or… He definitely shows herding dog behaviors and he is very calm, confident, and high status that’s what I know from observation. Finna’s paperwork said she was GSD/Corgi but both of her vets immediately said Cattle Dog. It’s hard to give much weight to the importance of breed when you have no idea what breed your dogs are made up of. They are simply my dogs and I need to see them as individuals and do my best for them. If I lived with a couple of carefully selected purebreds that were selected for their breed characteristics I’d probably be using a slightly different lens when looking at things.
And if I might be permitted a couple of directed comments.
@LisaW, Finna’s injury is looking more and more like a soft tissue problem (thank God!) she’s putting full weight on the leg now but still has a hesitation in her action like she’s not positive she trusts it yet. I’m not sure what the rules about sharing contact info are either but you’re welcome to communicate with me through my blog http://rangerandhiskat.blogspot.com/ Suggestions and ideas from those who’ve been here before are always welcome.
@Beth w/Corgis, I missed the comment before where you felt I was putting words in your mouth. The stereotype that all pit bulls will snap sometime after their second birthday and attack viciously is one I’ve heard and read many times and many places. I did not in any way mean to imply that that’s your stereotype of that type of dog and I’m sorry you felt I was putting those words in your mouth. I was simply trying to make the case that the breed stereotypes that I have don’t match dogs I personally know and that when we use extreme negative stereotypes to define a breed or type of dog we do nothing to promote knowledge or understanding.
Trisha says
Kat, I couldn’t agree more about the level of intelligence and knowledge of many of the blog readers. It is truly inspiring. And Kat, I haven’t yet mentioned how sorry I am about Finna’s injury, but I am so sorry that you are going through it, and glad to hear that the new information is a relief. My only advice, for whatever it is worth, is to go very, very slowly while rehabbing. Soft tissue injuries can take a long time to heal, which I’m sure you know. For inspiration, I was just watching Willie run yesterday on a walk in the woods, and he looked so sound and so happy that my heart just about burst out of my chest. Let’s hear it for the light at the end of the tunnel, and a speedy and full recovery for Finna.
Nic1 says
Trisha, your blog is my favourite on the web. The ‘Dog Savviness’ of fellow canine guardians and their contributions are exceptional, IMHO. The blog has been a great source of learning for me personally. Thank you!
Some people may well have read the document in the link I have posted but it is relevant to the discussion and hopefully will be of interest to some.
http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/publications/154426276_The%20Relevance%20of%20Breed%20in%20Selecting%20a%20Companion%20Dog.pdf
Beth says
Kat, I too wanted to express my sorrow for Finna’s injury but neglected to post it. I hope she recovers well. Funny you say that about the dog with the prong collar because you are right that many peole resort to that with a poorly controlled dog, yet it’s also just as possible that his owner has, say, severe arthritis in his hands and can’t manage a dog who pulls even a little. Or he might have gone to an old-school obedience trainer who recommends them for all dogs. Or his LAST dog might have been wild and he went to it right away out of abundance of caution.
I’ve seen many people steer away from dogs with head halters because they think they are muzzles.
It also occurred to me that people whose experience was much more with dogs of uknown origin would approach breed characteristics from a different angle than those who have purebreds. Indeed, those whose experience is with purebreds from working lines would be different from those whose experience is with, say, Great Danes from 50 generations of show dogs. My dad has always had hunting dogs and you don’t train them to hunt; you simply train them to follow your own series of commands and directions. They come wired to know how to hunt according to the style of their genetics, and it is the rare dog from working background who does not hunt at all. Some are excellent and some just ok, but there are very few duds. And of course living in an area where, unfortunately, people seem to be actively breeding fighting dogs gives me a different perspective than someone who lives in an area with show and performance breeders of AmStaffs.
Best of luck to you and Finna.
Linda says
I have a cocker spaniel who is a registered therapy dog. I’m used to people, including veterinarians, saying, “Wow he has a great personality – for a cocker spaniel.” They have a reputation for being high strung and in particular for biting, but you would never know it by my dog, Rufus. When we visit nursing homes, people are coming at him on wheelchairs and with walkers, often talking loudly because they don’t hear well. Oxygen tanks hiss, alarms go off, and he doesn’t even flinch. He’s just happy to be there.
JJ says
Nic1: Wow. I only had a chance to review the intro on that document – but wow. That’s a strong statement. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Mary K. says
Nic1-Thank you for sharing the post. Highly informative and interesting! As a shelter worker that is often extremely conflicted about labeling a mixed breed dog as a specific breed or even a cross between breeds, I found the article enlightening. Often, we resort to labeling a dog a specific breed because it is what the public wants, all the while knowing that it really is a crap shoot or anyone’s best guess as to what genetic components are truly part of the dog’s background. We do provide a behavioral profile of our dogs based on evaluations of the dog’s actual observed behavior and use that as a tool to try and find the right match between adopter and dog. Education is a huge component as well. Sometimes even the best intentioned people just don’t understand how much work is involved in being a good dog owner. Dogs, like people, need proper nutrition, exercise, and mental stimulation among many other things to successfully integrate into a family. But again, the article does a wonderful job of highlighting why breed stereotypes might be better off being a thing of the past. In any case, definitely food for thought.
Rose C says
Nic1, thanks for sharing!
Nic1 says
It is an interesting article I think and really sums up a lot of what has been discussed on this thread. In my opinion, the great thing about having a mixed breed dog, is that you truly have to accept the dog for who he is without any preconceptions. Behavioural profiles for shelter dogs, regardless of breed, would be really helpful for potential adopters/fosterers. This would perhaps encourage the average owner to be much more pragmatic with the dog that they have, rather than foster some preconceived notion. Mary K – you are so right when you say ‘Sometimes even the best intentioned people just don’t understand how much work is involved in being a good dog owner’ – Some people are well intentioned, but genuinely naive about what is involved.
Extending this mindset to any dog, regardless of breed, would indeed be a challenge for a lot of people and particularly those of us who have had unfortunate experiences with particular breeds or types of dogs – especially as there is often a lot of neurochemistry going on that we don’t really have a lot of control over at the time – fear, adrenaline etc. It then becomes our nature to (sensibly) avoid exposing ourselves and the dogs to the thing that triggered the fear. Usually the type of dog involved, unfortunately.
This article is perhaps some further evidence that the major factor in a dog’s success in our crazy world is really who is at the other end of the leash, as Trisha pointed out earlier of course. Us, at the other end of the leash, have a duty of care to breed dogs for the right reasons – health and temperament – and to ensure that their future guardians are educated and have appropriate support networks in place in society (access to kind, fair training/behavioural resources) to enable their dogs to be successful in our world.
I was discussing about pragmatism earlier, now I am being idealistic again..!
Beth says
Nic1, I read the article with interest. Their points about breed identification are very valid. I once met a Corgi/GSD cross who looked for all the world like a purebred Corgi in black (they do not come in this color). You never would have guessed GSD as the other half, because of the size, but the parentage was known (accidental breeding between purebred dogs). Crosses can be anything, or as is frequently the case, mutts that are the puppies of other mutts going back for many generations.
I had some issues with the rest. The National Canine Research Council certainly sounds like an unbiased source, but I would be curious to know more about them. Certainly they seemed to me like they had a conclusion first and shaped their reading of research to match that. Their point that 25% of greyhounds are not suitable to race led them to assume, for instance, because it was due to lack of aptitude, when it could be any number of other things (overly fearful, more interested in the other dogs, excessively aggressive, innate physical problems, etc).
Their willingness to add a “but” to every study that indeed showed predictable differences in behavior between breeds was an interesting choice that raised countless questions in my head.
There were other things. For instance, I know that only a small percent of field-bred pointers will make excellent trial dogs, but trials are the best of the best; almost all the rest will be perfectly acceptable hunting companions.
Their discussion of how we define purebreds raised some valid points, but as they mentioned people have raised dogs for function long before the gene pools were closed by stud books, and indeed many cultures kept long written pedigrees of their animals well before the modern idea of the stud book came into play. It is true that most show dogs are bred based on looks, but it’s also true that people are drawn to a breed based on personality traits. And so while almost no one uses a Corgi as a market dog who herds cattle, many breeders are still looking for that pushy, bossy dog who is not afraid to use its teeth. Most show breeders don’t have their huskies pull sleds, but they still breed for a dog who loves to run and is an independent thinker. And so on.
Interesting.
Rose C says
Beth, I agree with you although in reference to your last point, we have to keep in mind that this publication is discussing the larger percentage of today’s domestic dog population.
I agree with the conclusion that this paper drew but I personally would still put some (not all) weight on a dog’s breed/breed makeup when choosing a companion dog. The paper mentioned that the unselected ‘kill and dissect’ behavior in racing Greyhounds randomize and some individuals will have them and some won’t (p.16) and parts of the predation sequence that are not selected for or against in the racing Greyhound (i.e., kill and dissect), may manifest in some retired Greyhounds who would kill small moving animals, while others will not (p.17). In my opinion, there is always that probability that a breed-specific behavior will be displayed given the ‘right recipe’ of environmental triggers.
I do wonder on one thing though. On page 6 it says, “in a recent genetic study . . . shows that a large number of morphological traits in dogs . . . are determined by a very small number of ‘large effect’ genes. This means that even a small portion of a particular breed in a dog’s ancestry may result in a strong resemblance to that breed”.
Would this (or something similar) not hold true to breed-specific behavioral traits?
Susannah Charleson says
This immediately reminded me of the old Alfred Hitchcock lesson on film editing and implication, which controlled some of the variables you mention.
In his discussion for beginning filmmakers, Hitchcock used:
a picture of himself, looking offscreen (camera left) with a sort of smile on his face,
a picture of a baby sitting on the ground,
a picture of someone picking himself up from a bike mishap,
and a picture of a pretty girl walking.
Hitchcock demonstrated that if he followed the shot of himself looking camera left with the image of the baby, viewers believed he was smiling at the child, and his smile was thought of as grandfatherly and kindly. If he put the fallen cyclist after the same smiling image of himself, viewers interpreted him as malicious. And if he put the pretty girl’s picture after that close-up of him smiling, viewers perceived him as an old lech.
Same Hitch, different story. (Of course, he confessed afterward, I am all of these things.)
Malin says
Hello! I just stumbled into this site just because of this picture of this amazing dog and the lady.
Currently I am working on a project in school where I am supposed to make an advertising poster, and thats why I am contacting you. In fact I was wondering if I can use this picture of the lady, and if you would like to send it to me. I truly hope that you will do me that favor! Sincerely Malin
Trisha says
Malin: As you can see while reading the blog, the photo is from the work of Lisa Gunter, so you would need to contact her. Best of luck.
Nic1 says
http://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-thejournal-ie-dangerous-dogs-restricted-breeds-2775130-May2016/
A good review of current evidence on dog breed traits and breed specific legislation.
Anonymous says
I have a 2 and a half year old medium sized black schnoodle, a cross between a miniature schnauzer and a miniature poodle. He is super energetic, friendly and smart and loves running up to strangers to greet them. He is a fairly small fluffy dog, so everyone is ok with it, but every time he does, it leaves me thinking how people would react if he was a feared breed like a Pitbull. The personality wouldn’t be different, but people would be afraid because of the mean stereotypes against pit bulls. As the article states, a breed doesn’t define an individuals personality.