We’ve been talking about secondary reinforcers and markers, and the good question has come up about the difference between them. On the one hand, we know that a click or a “yes” can be used to communicate to a dog that a specific behavior is what is about to be reinforced. Clicking or saying “yes” at exactly the right moment is incredibly powerful in that it is a precise way of communicating to an animal exactly what it was doing that will elicit the reinforcement (clicks are more precise than words, by the way).
However, you could also call a click or “yes” a 2ndary reinforcer, since to be effective it is paired with a primary reinforcer like food, and the animal learns to associate the click/marker with the treat, right? So which is it? Ah, you gotta love the English language: sometimes it helps us understand things, sometimes it makes things more confusing.
Let me answer that question from a different perspective. Ethology, the study of animal behavior in its natural environment, spends a lot of time studying communication. One of the traditional ways at looking at communication is to distinguish between the Message and the Meaning. The Message can be thought of as what the sender is trying to convey, whether intentionally or not. The Meaning, on the other hand, is the information the receiver gets from the signal. As every human who has ever been in a relationship knows, those aren’t always the same thing. So in this case, the Message of a click or other marker is clear: “THAT, what you JUST did, is what will get you a treat!” [I first inadvertently wrote “meaning,” thanks to an alert reader for noticing the mistake! Jeez]
At the other side of the signal, we don’t know what the receiver makes of it–do they have any idea that we are intentionally ‘marking’ a behavior? Are they consciously aware that the click/yes leads to a treat if they do that exact, specific thing again? (They don’t have to be to perform brilliantly, as a matter of fact we’ve all seen animals perform perfectly and then have it all fall apart, often when they start thinking about what they are doing!) Are they simultaneously or uniquely becoming classically conditioned to the sound of a marker (I think they are being CC’d, no matter what else is going on)… It seems reasonable that our dogs, if we could talk to them, would define the Message of a marker as both a marker AND as a 2ndary reinforcer. Perhaps what is most important from our perspective is how we define it, because that is what drives how we use it.Does this make sense? I have to admit sometimes I worry less about labels and more about actual behavior, but still, it’s a fun intellectual inquiry.
Question for you: I’m curious: How many of you use markers, of any kind, at all? Did you consciously decide to use a marker and follow it up with praise (sometimes, as a 2ndary)…? If you use a marker in the strict sense of the word, what do you use? Click from a clicker? A word?
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: Over 6 inches in the last 24 hours. No kidding. Another 1 to 3 today. Eeeeeps. Last night there were many small tornadoes reported in the area, one not far at all from the farm. I take these babies very seriously, the infamous Barneveld tornado (9 people killed, the town 90% destroyed) freight-trained just one valley away from my farm, less than a 1/2 mile away, and I will never forget the impact of the first view I had of a close neighbor’s farm, metal roofing blown over a 1/2 mile into tree trunks, 5 buildings destroyed, the ground littered with siding and bricks and fertilizer and corn and thousands of things in tiny pieces too small to identify.
I was in town with friends during the worst of it, and we were all happy to return home to find the structures still standing, the dogs, cats, sheep, etc. fine. Sorry, no pictures yet, it was raining, again, so hard this morning when I left that I didn’t want to take the camera outside.
But here’s Hopey-boy (don’t you love knicknames?), a helpless victim of Sherman the Sheep, who somehow developed a wound in his neck and is attempting to blame it all on an innocent little puppy. Tall two-leg female is not upset, however. Sherman has been played with, tugged upon, bitten, and thrown around every day for a long time, and has shown an impressive amount of stamina. Besides, we just got in Polly the Pig (seriously) to sell on the website, and Tall Two-Leg is forced to take her home for the dogs to try out. Poor dogs.
Stacy Braslau-Schneck says
I think when you wrote:
> the Meaning of a click or other marker is clear:
Roberta Beach says
I think I use “yes!” as both a secondary and primary reinforcer. In his crate, my foster black and tan puppy (who I swear has just in a week had a growth spurt at about 6-7 months old), responds well to a happy “yes!” for sits, downs and leave its. Outside his crate, he is most decidedly an adolescent – he avoids commanded eye contact, downs or leave its w/o a treat – though I use both the treat and “yes!”, now a secondary reinforcer. Am I understanding correctly? We think this boy is part Dobie – he is smart as a whip. The other dog (of the 14 rescues seeking homes) is a TWC, Jedi. He is much better at name recognition, eye contact, sits, downs but he is extremely treat motivated. I am working them both for their CGC. We may or may not be able to cert. both at the same time. Thanks for all the very good information!
Dena (Izzee's Mom) says
I occasionally use a clicker, but most of the time I use a verbal marker. (I was originally taught to call it a “cookie word”. Like many folks, I use “yes!”, said in a bright, short, upbeat tone. And in addition, I usually add praise to the treat delivery.
I love dog nicknames. (I think that’s the correct spelling, Trisha.) Hopey-boy is a good one. My Ford is “Fordelicious”, Izzee was “Pupperoni-girl”, and Pixie is “The Pixelator” or “Pixemort” (when she’s being evil).
Susan S. says
I’m finally using “yes” consistently. I always used praise & treats with my own dogs & that was a habit I’ve had to overcome. When I understood about markers I bought a clicker but I abandoned it almost immediately because it was so confusing in a class setting. Now I’m training shelter dogs, who are usually pretty needy. When I use praise as a marker I often have a squirming, wagging dog rather than a sitting or staying dog. I can say “yes” & deliver a treat much more quickly, & I use lots of praise once the behavior has been learned.
Susan Mann says
Yes, I use a marker. I use a clicker, and also a verbal marker. I tend to use the clicker when I am shaping, or wanting a lot of precision, and a verbal marker for more everyday stuff.
I have also spent some effort consciously building praise as a reinforcer by pairing praise with food, with the praise coming first. I do use praise as a secondary reinforcer following a verbal marker, but not often, mostly it is given on its own. I don’t think I have ever used praise alone after marking with a click, though I don’t really have a reason not to. I use a lot of life rewards and tugging as well as treats in my training. However, since the clicker is used primarily when I am shaping or working on something very specific, I tend to have lot of incredible treats, and a few toys, so that I can keep the reinforcement rate up. Pretty hard to keep up a high rate of reinforcement when using life rewards, and I generally want really good reinforcements for whatever I’m teaching, and dont’ consider praise as high on the list.
Which brings me to a question- years and years ago, I remember hearing that behavior taught initially with great reinforcers were easier to maintain, even with lower level reinforcers, than behaviors taught with more moderate reinforcers, even when great reinforcers were used to maintain them. I don’t have any reference for this, and am wondering if you have information to support (or refute!) this.
Also, were does play fall? Primary reinforcer? Secondary? Does it depend on the dog? I have BCs, and haven’t felt a need to reinforce tugging with food, whereas at one point I did have to reinforce food with tugging in agility. For Kyp! (not a BC!) tugging is a weak secondary reinforcer that I pair with food and rarely use without backing it up with food, and it took me a while to get to her to play tug, or fetch, or even touch a toy (yep, got her as an adult, she had been a stray on the streets and then spent time in the shelter before I pulled her.) Butt scritches, on the other hand, seem to work as a primary for her, though I don’t think I’ve ever relied completely on that for training anything!
Susan Mann, Brodie, Kyp!, and Arie
Irith Bloom says
I use a marker most of the time (though there are situations where it’s not necessary or even a wise choice). I generally use an i-Click in formal training, because it’s easy to handle and makes a very consistent sound. If I’m not able to click the clicker for some reason, of don’t have one on me, I most often use a tongue click. In some situations, I use a very high-pitched “yip!”, which I try to make sound as consistent as possible. I sometimes follow the marker with praise, but always in conjunction with a more powerful reinforcer (usually food, sometimes a toy, and sometimes a Premack-inspired choice such as freedom to chase a squirrel). To me, praise is not a powerful enough reinforcer to risk using alone during formal training with a marker (though I could probably use it alone once in a while between primary reinforcers if I went to the trouble of conditioning it properly).
While it is quite interesting for us to consider whether the marker is a secondary reinforcer as well as a marker (and I certainly enjoy thinking about that and similar topics), I have a feeling that to the animals being trained, it doesn’t matter one whit. I assume that once they are clicker-savvy, to them the click means both “THAT was the moment,” and “good things are about to happen.” They probably start out with just the “good things are about to happen” reaction as they are learning about markers, of course. But there I go down the path of thinking about it yet again…
Bottom line: Markers work. They teach behavior quickly and efficiently. That’s good enough for my trainees, so it’s good enough for me too, even if I do allow myself to indulge in exploring theory when I’m not in the middle of training.
Irith Bloom, KPA CTP
Mary says
While training my BC the weave poles in agility, I used the marker “YES”, when he hit the entry correctly (from the right side). It worked well because it is a short word, and he would be travelling very fast before and after entering the first pole. And that way I didn’t have to carry a clicker AND a frisbee while I was running. (The frisbee was his primary reinforcer – he loves it as much or more than food – he got that after finishing all the weave poles).
Amanda & the Mutts says
I use a clicker for marking when I’m teaching a new task. Once my dog knows it, I use more secondary enforcer type rewards. I find the ability to shape a behavior when teaching something new is invaluable.
KT says
I read somewhere that using a “marker” word is a good thing and I’ve been doing it ever since. Tucker doesn’t care for the clicker so I was forced to use “YES” as my marker and then I follow it up with other praise or treats. Just like loading the clicker, I loaded “Yes” with an immediate treat for awhile and now I just treat occasionally. Does it become a primary reinforcer over time, just like a treat? What does his beany little brain think about it? I don’t know…all I know is that he finds it to be reinforcing and that’s all that matters in the long run. Actually, do WE choose what is primary and secondary after some time or does the dog choose what he likes as reinforcer? Could they actually come to prefer the secondary reinforcer??? Ah..if only they could talk, eh??
trisha says
Thanks Stacy for noting my error ! Ah, those tired, late Friday afternoons…. I fixed it on the post (but noted my original mistake and thanked my alert readers.)
I’ll write more about how I use markers and 2ndaries after more comments come in.
Raegan says
I use a clicker very often, but I also have conditioned a verbal marker. I prefer the clicker, because I have a terrible habit of not reinforcing every time. And I can tell that, in general, “yes” is a less effective marker than the click. The verbal is a broader marker as well. I use it for larger behaviors (LLW, recall, go away).
I think the clicker is best thought of as solely a marker and promise of good things to come, not as the good thing itself. There is a temptation to rely too heavily on the click as a reinforcer and never deliver food (or other primary reinforcer) and that leads down a whole path of training with a clicker, but not clicker training.
Carolyn H. says
I intentionally have chosen to use a clicker or a tongue click and my dog showed she understood it very well – until we worked on stays. She always broke a millisecond before I used my marker. Then it finally hit me…her marker was my smile which preceded the click which preceded the reward. Stacy’s remark about unconscious markers really resonated with me!
All my dogs have nicknames. Jewel shortened to Ju, which became Ju Ju, and finally has morphed into Jujube. (She is as sweet as candy!)
Laurel says
I use a clicker when teaching a new behavior and then YES after the initial learning. They both end the behavior and mean what they did was correct and now something good will happen… treat…tug.. sleeve… door opens to go out… In a perfect world I do not give/reach for a treat/tug at the same time that I say YES but rather seconds afterwards. Works for me. I taught a rescue GSD who was trying so hard to heel correctly that her ears were back not presenting a good picture to heel with her ears up. I would squeak, her ears would come up, I’d mark it and reward. The squeak that got her attention turned into the command “ears up” in a high pitched voice. It was fun to watch!
Marie says
I use both a verbal “Yes” or a clicker depending on what I am working on for my marker. I find the clicker more precise. Secondarys, once they have learned the game, can include treats, play, smiles, verbal praise and for one of my dogs butt scratches. (Touch can work but only if the dog LIKES being touched or it is done in a way they like. No head bouncing!) Initially I use the highest value secondary to keep the game interesting and payoffs high enough. Then I go to a variable schedule based on the dog I am working. For deaf dogs my marker is a thumbs up paired with the verbal “yes” and a smile. (Deaf dogs read our facial expressions too so keep talking to them!)
Deanna in OR says
I use a clicker for training very specific behaviors, only once in a while now, but I use a marker work frequently, often followed by a treat (or tug or fetch for my BC, or a “Go sniff” for my collie) for maintenance. Based on their reactions to the marker word, they don’t seem to react as though it were praise or happy talk…they just look for the paycheck. One the other hand, they react as though praise or happy talk is a reward in itself–by jumping, bumping a nose against my leg, weaving between my leg, presenting a butt for scratches, all things that I interpret as “happy” from my dogs.
Once in a while when I really need to reinforce contacts in agility with my collie, I’ll pull out the clicker. I also have a “Hit-It Board”, which electronically emits a loud high-pitched sound when she puts her feet on it (placed at the end of the contact equipment). It’s kind of like an automated clicker or marker–she knows a treat is coming when she hears it.
I’ve charged “Yes!” and “Good!” as marker words with my dogs. I like teaching “Good!” because its sharper (and quick when used correctly) but too many students have a hard time getting past using it as praise instead of a marker (“Goooooddd booyy!”), which doesn’t help the dog learn which specific behavior earned the treat. So I usually encourage them to use “Yes!”. I tell them about clickers, but most have a hard enough time handling a leash, treats, their dog, their cues or signals, and their timing without needing another hand for a clicker.
I learned marker words in a puppy class some years ago (at the same school where I now teach a class or 2). Not as precise as a clicker, but I always have one with me!
Frances says
Heavens – how quickly Hope has grown! (I’ve just reread that, and it sounds like the first line of an old fashioned poem!)
I do use markers, but I am horribly inconsistent except with the clicker – I am scrupulous about click and treat. My two are so easy and well behaved most of the time that I get lazy and let things slip – very dangerous. Sophy did a runner onto the road yesterday, for the first time in nearly a year (it is a winding country road, with high hedges and no verges, and cars and motorbikes come down it at up to 60 mph). Fortunately the lead car saw her in time, and all the traffic stopped until I could get her back in, but it was a scary warning to me that consistency is important, and an emergency recall is the most important command of all. She had been flying to me when called all day – and then ignored me the one time it really mattered. Greeting her in a happy, upbeat tone when she finally responded was very, very hard! Sorry – I am gibbering – don’t think my pulse has dropped to normal even now!
Pamela says
I use the clicker with “yes” as my marker when I don’t have the clicker.
But I wonder how the “click” is also reinforcing me. I know I can do training without the clicker but I rely on it heavily. I think there’s something about using it that makes me more attentive, more mindful.
Hmmm, Honey does a behavior. I click. The click is followed by a treat, or tug, or scratch on the chest–all of which I enjoy. So does the click that is a marker for Honey become a secondary reinforcer for me who is rewarded by getting to treat or play with my dog (one of my favorite rewards)?
Or is it a marker for me that I’ve gotten her to do a specific behavior followed up by a treat (for her which is a treat for me?)
Ouch, my head is starting to hurt. I’d better go play with my dog.
Susan says
I started Gimmel’s training with a clicker, and now use mostly the word “yes,” so that my hands are both free. But like a lot of the others, I use the clicker for new behaviors I’m trying to get. For certain things, like “enough!” to stop her barking, I have to follow up the initial treat w/a game or distraction of some sort for awhile to maintain her quiet behavior, especially if she was barking at the fox outside the window! Gimmel is an intense, bold terrier and she is as responsive to the click or the yes! as any less independent dog I’ve seen. I’m so happy to have found this positive approach to training. I had Airedales in the past (Gimmel is a Welsh) back in the days of jerk and correct, and while they were as playful and outgoing in general as Gimmel, none of them offered behaviors or participated as actively as she does in the learning process. I owe them such a big apology! I use the yes! for my horse too, with wonderful results. My horse learned to use an inhaler so that I can give her meds w/no halter or any other form of restraint. She is the first one I explored clicker training with and I was hooked right away, so when Gimmel came along 8 years later, there was no question what type of class I would look for.
em says
Maybe because I’ve never attempted shaping or any really complicated training, I’ve never thought of myself as using markers, but now that I think about it, I realize that I do, sort of. When Otis is lollygagging, or drifting in a direction that I don’t approve of, I’ll call him to come along by saying ‘come on’ or ‘this way’-the command isn’t a true recall,the cue for which is ‘right here’, but just an instruction to pick up the pace or to move in my direction. Once he gets moving the right way, I’ll give him a short, unexcited, ‘good boy’, as a marker then turn and keep moving. The primary reinforcer, as I see it, is one (or all) of the following, depending on how he looks at it:
a) he gets the satisfaction of rejoining the ‘pack’, (even if that’s just me) and moving forward to enjoy nice new smells and experiences. He does seem to enjoy this moment of reunion-when bored he’ll deliberately lag behind repeatedly, only to come charging up the path to bounce happily around me before falling back again.
b) He avoids the unpleasant consequence of a reprimand or a ‘hard recall’ which, even if always rewarded, seems to be less desirable to Otis than continued low-key mooching about on his own terms.
c)He avoids the even more terrible possibility of being left behind. (Sometimes I try to impress this possibilty more firmly onto his mind by hiding while he’s momentarily out of sight-unfortunately, he’s a competent enough scent tracker that I seldom succeed in impressing him with anything more than my own silliness-he doesn’t lose me long enough to worry).
In any case, I try not to give him verbal cues too often-not so much because I’m afraid of diminishing their effectiveness but because he tends to get lazy after a while, waiting for me to call to him instead of keeping tabs on me on his own.
So I’m not sure if this counts in a strict sense, but I’d say that Otis sees the ‘good boy’ as a marker-confirmation that he’s doing the right thing-rather than as a reward in itself.
p.s. Otis is also known to answer to “Bubba” when humoring his silly owner 🙂
kate says
I was trained to use the word “yes” as a marker like someone uses a ‘clicker”.
I’ve noticed over the years; helping out in classes, watching new owners be inconsistent, even with fosters having to start off with a blank slate.. it does seems to help speed up the learning process if you can use the same word to mark the behaviour. Whatever it is.
I got bored of saying “yes” and switched to “good boy”, then bored of that and switched to “wow”, or “awesome”. It sure makes me feel good and lifts my spirits when I’m using happy words to mark behaviours I like! They all work, and not sure if it’s because our relationship developed and you just become in sync with eachother.
I also notice that my facial expressions and enthusiastic words helped bridge the time before I deliver a treat when working on stays, and ended up becoming a secondary reinforcer too.
“Cha Ching” is my latest favourite that causes happy dancing feet and very zippy recalls.
Sometimes I get so caught up in the lightbulb moment, bursting with excitement and forget to say “Yes’ but my facial expression and enthusiasm relays the same info to my guys. They get it 🙂
Body language/facial expressions or sounds… with any relationship it takes time to learn how to read eachother. I’ll have to do some testing!
Kat says
I manage to use the clicker as a marker with good consistency. My marker words, “yes” and “good” less so I’m afraid. Ranger, smart fellow that he is, has figured out that unless he sees the clicker in my hand he’s better served looking at my face to see if he’s gotten it right.
Nicknames are fun. Ranger is, of course, Ranger Rover, Ranger Danger to the kids on the street (they see him out for a walk shout “Ranger Danger alert” and fly out of their yards to love on him.), I mostly call him Beautiful or Beautiful Boy. I hadn’t realized how much I use Beautiful as his nickname until we had him at a store one day and someone behind us said “What a beautiful dog.” Ranger whirled around in response to his “name” and asked to go meet the person. Since meeting and greeting is his job he was allowed to go visit the person to their mutual delight.
Karen says
I found a clicker to frustrating. The verbal marker “yes” works just fine for me and my dogs. I can train on the spur of the moment, any time, any place. Don’t have to carry a clicker with me all the time.
Liza Lundell says
Amelia is disappointed if she doesn’t get a click. Even a yes followed by a great treat isn’t as good as a click followed by a lesser treat. From my observation, she finds the click itself to be reinforcing, although I always follow it with a treat. She’s almost 11 and I’ve been clicker training her since I got her at 8 weeks. The breeder conditioned the clicker when weaning the litter, but didn’t do any formal training with it.
vin chiu says
I find that a clicker enables me to train much more complex behavior than a voice marker but on a day to day basis I use a voice marker much much more than a clicker as it is so much more convenient and is always available. However, whenever I run into a training blockage, I make a mental note and train the next session with a clicker to get over the hump. It works every time. The click is like a surgical scalpel whereas the voice marker is more of a rugged multi-tool you wear on your belt all day. That’s just me. I may just not have enough verbal coordination to use a voice marker as effectively as others. 🙂 For behavior mod I almost always use a clicker.
Cindy M says
I use a tongue click with our horses and “good girl” or “good boy” in a high-pitched voice for the dogs. We don’t do any precision work with the dogs and husband won’t play along with a clicker or treats. With the horses, it’s just too complicated to manage a box clicker plus a lead rope or reins. Since the animals know the click sound means “the reward delivery process is about to begin,” they eagerly listen for it. The only time they have ignored it, or failed to go into “treat recipient mode,” is if they are frightened or startled or distracted beyond a level where they can focus on what I am doing with them. And when they reach that level of distraction, they aren’t learning anyway, so we have to find a way to “dial it down.” I recently heard a lecture where the speaker said, “the clicker is a secondary reinforcer, but it is also a cue that reward delivery is now beginning.” I like that explanation. It fits well with the person who wrote that her dog was responding to her physical movements, rather than the click, when training a “stay.” Important for us to be aware of our unintended cues.
Shelly V says
I use the clicker a lot, especially when I’m working with fear or anxiety cases. Sometimes, you just can’t say “Yes!” fast enough to catch that fleeting moment of calm.
When it comes to general training, I prefer the clicker, but I’m always open to a marker word. So, my dogs know both. Sometimes, clients can’t quite seem to get the mechanics of the clicker, leash, bait, bag, dog, etc…so it is helpful to be able to take at least one out of the equation.
I agree with Irith, that the dogs probably don’t think about the distinction. And you said it in the post, as well. It’s mostly an intellectual discussion. When it comes down to it, the trick is whether or not we are using a behavior to change or get the behavior we want. In that sense, markers, 2ndary reinforcers, or whatever you want to call them, certainly seem to work!
Nanci Byers says
I use both a clicker and a marker word YES!. When I am shaping a new behavior (training two sighthounds in agility) I tend to choose the clicker for its precision. But a verbal marker is always handy no matter where I am, although I think I have about 20 clickers situated about the house!
I think clicker training is exactly the way we should communicate with dogs, it’s just so brilliant. I also agree with you about the classical conditioning, because as soon as I pick up a clicker the dogs tails start wagging and all three offer various behaviors.
The joys of clicker training!
Melissa says
I do love markers. My first foray into clicker training was with a domestic rabbit who would not let me touch her. It is hard to believe she is now a lap bunny. I then got a puppy and started clicker training him, but I wasn’t very good at it and when my second puppy came along 18 months later I was much better at it. I switched my first dog to a verbal marker on the advice of a bridge and target trainer. So my first dog gets “ping” and my second dog gets a click from a clicker. When we started agility we were instructed to use a marker word rather than a clicker because the clicker makes a dog look at you. So now for my second dog he has clickers and he has “tick”. I try to pick fast, hard-sounding words. The faster I can say it the better it is. My second dog also accidentally gets “yes” sometimes when we are at agility and someone says it in my ear the moment I should mark him. He doesn’t seem to care. My first dog occasionally gets “tick” when I’ve been training my second dog. He does a little double-take and I remember to sort out my markers! I think the “tick” is a bit superfluous and clicker would have worked fine, but what do I know. I’m only just starting out in agility.
Fascinatingly, I tried to clicker train my semi-tame hare and had troubles. The obvious guess was the clicker was too loud and scary for him, but I don’t think that’s what happened. I think he gathered the meaning of the clicker and then got ahead of me and started just offering the behaviours I had clicked when he wanted a treat. Trying to teach him something new with a click was difficult. He didn’t respond to the sound by watching more closely like the other animals did. He just flicked his ears and took it on board. It occurred to me that despite having massive ears he was actually not very discriminatory about sounds. I made sounds at him all the time and I knew they meant nothing to him most of the time. He just barely knew his name. So I started marking by flashing my palm at him and that worked much better. At least, it did until he abruptly got into the habit of hiding every time I came to visit. Since then I have kind of gone back to sounds because he’s hiding much of the time. I have a “I’m coming in” signal, which is a kissy sound, and then I have a “I’m backing off” signal, which is a tongue click. I spent ages teaching him the “I’m backing off” tongue click in the hopes of teaching him a safety signal. I recently started giving him a safety signal when I approach instead of the “I’m coming in” signal. It’s interesting, he would pause and think about whether he should run away or stay put. I’m wary of polluting his safety signal and still use it in the original way a lot, but am just carefully trying to use it to get him to relax about my approaches. It is slowly working, I think. A thinking hare is the best I can really hope for, I believe.
Terry says
I use a verbal marker, “yes”, which seems to work well. My competition dog knows when I say that word, she gets either a treat or her ball. She knows it and immediately looks for her reward. I have started this on my new puppy (an unplanned child as it were). I am finding her to do well and knows that “yes” marks and releases the behavior.
I would be interested in knowing if any actual comparative study has been done to demonstrate the effectiveness of clicker or verbal marker? Some scientific based studies would be nice…..maybe a potential dissertation???
Sarah says
Using a marker is something I sort of slid into. My first competition dog was trained in a more “traditional” way, but when I got to training the retrieve, I couldn’t get him to hold the dumbbell. A friend sent me a couple of clicker trainer techniques, and I decided to try the methods outlined in Lana Mitchell’s “The Clicked Retriever”. I chose to use a marker word, which was “good”, spoken short rather than drawn out as in praise. He learned the retrieve quickly with that method, and it became his best exercise.
So with my next dog, I used a lot more marker training, still using a marker word by choice. I was really happy with the results, I felt that she had a much better understanding of the behaviors than the first dog.
With her daughter, I started out with the intention of using a marker word, but a friend started playing with the pup with a clicker, and her response to it was really impressive. It was obvious that the clicker was more clear to that pup than the marker word was. So I overcame my aversion to extra equipment, and started using a clicker. I also started using a lot more free shaping with that dog, and now with her son. It’s much easier to do with a clicker, and it’s fun.
I’m not rigid about any technique, I do use other techniques than the operant conditioning, but it’s the base I start with. I do also still use a marker word in some contexts, rather than the clicker. And I sometimes do praise while using the clicker, but it’s after the treat has been delivered, and mostly used because I can’t shut up.
Ann W in PA says
Way Too Long a post, but there are so many interesting topics! I
Jennifer says
Sherman the sheep looks to be a “Tuffy” toy. My younger Berner loves these guys, almost as much as the real ones. A word of warning: we had Polly the pig (actually still have her hoping to repair her), but my Italian greyhound and Berner loved to play tug with her, and they managed to tear the seam open at the neck. After that sad loss, I looked more closely at the Farm Animal collection and noticed that the horse, whose name escapes me, is all one piece (no seam at the neck). He has lasted much longer when the two dogs use him as a tug toy. I love playing tug with our Berner with the large two handled Tuffy tug toy.Donner the Berner can bite and hold it in the middle section, and I can hold both handles.
Jennifer
Deanna in OR says
One challenge I had with a student a few months ago was coming up with a marker signal for a deaf dog. The dog was tested as completely deaf, and was about a year old on coming to the beginner class. She was good about keeping her eyes on her owner. I tried to get the owner to create a hand signal as a marker, charging it with treats as you would a clicker or a word, but she (the owner) had a hard time with that. The motion of hand-with-treat coming toward the dog turned out to be as good as anything for a marker, in this case.
Has anyone else trained a deaf dog using a hand or body-language signal?
Terry says
Yes!!!! The deafies!!! To Deanna in OR…I have 2 deaf bully girls and I use a thumbs up as a marker for the behavior. The deafies are really well in tuned to body language and I found out that they learn very quickly that the “hands” speak. They naturally seem to be very good at “checking” in and watching. At that point it is easy to work with them using the regular obedience command signals.
Heather says
I use markers. Clickers, Verbals (predominately yes), Thumbs up and LED lights. I definatly use clickers for planned, precision sessions with hearing dogs. Yes for the opportune moments that happen in life. The two visual markers I have used with deaf foster puppies on basic manners behaviors and I have had great fun working with these pups.
Angel says
The puppy class Bear and I started off in (and the trainer we’ve stuck with for the past year and a half) taught to use a marker word. So Bear was trained with a marker word (“good!”). I usually also add the command again after the marker, as in: “Sit.” Bear sits. “Good sit!” Does anyone else do this?
I recently started using the clicker with him, and he gets it…and he doesn’t, laughs. He knows that the click means he did something right and that a treat is coming. But he doesn’t offer different behaviors trying to guess what I want. For example, I’ve been trying to catch him when he shakes, like shaking off water, so I can put it on cue. He always gets up in the morning, stretches, then shakes a few times. So I started clicking when he shook himself, then treating. He caught on, but not 100%. He was eyeing me and stretching again. And again. And when that didn’t get him treats, he’d sit and stare at me. “Yo, human. Whatcha want me to do here? What I gotta do to get another treat outta you?” Laughs. It’s too funny to watch him. But we seem to be stuck at that point right now. Anyway…I’m rambling a bit. 🙂
To Deanna in OR: My friend will soon be adopting two farm pigs, one of whom is deaf due to being used as bait in dog fighting. She plans on clicker training him and using a laser light as the marker.
JJ says
Some thoughts…
a) Reading these replies, it seems like some dogs are more enamored of a click than other dogs. So, whether the click/marker itself ever becomes a secondary reinforcer may depend in part on the dog.
b) I don’t think this is just an intellectual question. Here’s why: If it is possible for the click to be a secondary reinforcer (and I don’t see why not), then it would make sense that there would be times when it is OK to JUST give the click – after all, the click is the reinforcer. This idea goes against what I was taught concerning the click: That it is 1) a maker and 2) a PROMISE of a reward. I had one instructor say that I always had to give a treat after clicking even if I made a mistake on the click. This has always been a question in my head – especially as Trisha points out in her conferences that variable reinforcement can be more effective than consistent reinforcement.
…….If you believe that a click can be a secondary reinforcer in itself, then that answers the question in my head. ie: That a treat is not always required after a click. But I think people have to be very careful to not over-use the click without the primary reinforcer. It can become too easy to just do the clicks too often and then dilute them. (I wonder if that is what Ken was getting at during his talk, which I did not hear. I just read your previous post.)
c) On using a word like “good” vs “yes” – vs using a clicker. I totally understand why people would want to use a word over the clicker, even knowing that the clicker is going to be more effective. That said, I think it is helpful to have praise words that are not markers. In other words, I would hate to use “good” as a marker, because I want to be able to tell my dog (in a calm voice), “Gooood”, “What a goooood boy” while he is in the middle of doing tricks – such as stay. I want to be able to encourage him/communicate that he is doing the right thing – without it being a marker signifying the end of a behavior. Thus, to me, picking the marker word would be as important as picking a release word. It should not be a word one would not say accidentally.
I like the idea of using a clicker for training. I’m convinced of the science behind it. That said, I don’t use it all that often in practice. I think it takes some practice/training/skill building on my own to use it. It is worth it, but I have tended to leave the clicker in the cubboard since we stopped going to classes. I still teach new tricks, but rarely use the clicker. Maybe I’ll dust it off this weekend and give it a try again.
Alexandra says
I use a verbal “yes” as a marker with my dogs. I use it most often in agility to mark the instant my agility dog does whatever action I had asked correctly. It’s incredibly powerful. I suppose it could be said that the “yes” has become a bit of a secondary reinforcer, because I do not always stop to reward with a treat in the middle of a sequence, but I might still give a “yes” to mark a particularly good bit of obstacle performance or response to m handling and then give a jackpot of treats at the end of the sequence. Every competition run is like that where all I have is my voice and enthusiasm because of the bag of treats stays well outside the ring.
I also use “good boy!” and cheering as a secondary reinforcer. Treats are his primary reinforcer… that dog LOVES his cookies.
Carmen says
We have an 8 year old Aussie mix, born deaf, and have always used a thumbs up signal to mean “good/correct”. My husband has competed with her in UKC events and is now training her for Utility which is posing some additional challenges doing the go out exercises. We may need to use a light, although would love some other suggestions also! Her other obedience skills have been very easy to teach because she watches my husband constantly.
Deanna in OR says
One thing we sometimes forget in communicating with our dogs–they don’t “have” verbal language the way humans do. They can certainly connect meaning with sounds, but a long “Gooooddd” with the tone dropping in pitch is a different sound than a very short, sharp “Good!” which may sound more like “Gd”, with a single pitch. We humans who speak English know that it is the same word with the same meaning, but beings (human, canine or otherwise) who don’t know English, will likely hear these two sounds as sounds with potentially different meanings.
That lets me use “Gd!” as a marker while still keeping “Whad a goo-ood gir-rl” as praise.
JJ says
Deanna: Great point.
Dena (Izzee's Mom) says
And that is one of the reaasons that I like to use a verbal marker. It gives me the opportunity to not only mark the behavior I want, but to also give some “quantity” feedback to tell the dog how close they have come to the exact behavior I am looking for.