Here’s a brief post from one of the many fascinating talks at IFAAB… brief because I’m afraid I came home with a killer influenza, couldn’t even stand up on Tuesday, much less sit up. So boring to be sick, seems like I’ve been sick that too much this winter. Enough already.
One of the best talks at IFAAB (Interdisciplinary Forum on Applied Animal Behavior) was from Dr. Anneke Lisberg whose dissertation was on scent marking and urine investigation in dogs. [And was also my Teaching Assistant for several years, a truly great house sitter and now a dear friend and colleague, so am I objective? Not even close. But based on the comments after her talk, I’m quite sure the rest of the group concurs with my assessment.]
Anneke and I talked long and hard about what she should study for her dissertation, and I suggested she look at scent marking, because it seemed we know so little about it. She looked at the literature and was stunned to discover how little research has actually been done on it. Dr. Ian Dunbar did work years ago on scent marking, and found that females did little marking and showed little interest in the urine of others–at least compared to males. However, this work was on beagles who were familiar and housed together. It was a great start, yeah for Ian for doing it when most people didn’t consider dog behavior to be of any interest at all. (I actually had a scientist tell me, immediately after I passed my dissertation defense, that he previously didn’t think you could actually do research on dogs. I replied: “Well, Darwin thought so. Who are we to quibble?”)
Anneke presented urine-soaked, short wooden stakes to all 4 categories of dogs: intact male, intact female, neutered male and spayed female, and recorded the behavior of the same 4 categories of dogs allowed to investigate the stakes. Her results will be published soon in Animal Behavior, but in brief, she found that females indeed spent a lot of time investigating the urine of unfamiliar dogs (we are not surprised, are we!), that males investigated the urine of unfamiliar males most, while females were interested in urine from both sexes.
Individuals with the highest base of the tail position (more on that later) spent the least time sniffing the scents, while those with low tail positions spent the most time (risk assessment?). However, dogs with the highest tail base position (which correlated with the dogs most likely to get a tossed food-stuffed toy in a group of dogs) did the most overmarking, or urinating directly over the urine of another dog. In her study, females never overmarked, they did what she terms “adjacent marked” or urinated directly after sniffing the urine of others, but a good 4 to 5 feet away. I’ll tell you more next post about another one of her studies that suggests that ‘overmarking’ and ‘adjacent marking’ are different responses based on different motivations.
I should add here, that haven’t not read Anneke’s dissertation, my old Lassie girl still over marks the urine of one other dog in the house. Right now there’s just Willie, and she literally waits for him to pee, then goes over and urinates directly on top of it. When Pip was alive she did it over Pips’. When I say “Go Pee,” Lassie turns her head toward Willie to track where he is going to go. And yet, if you dropped a chunk of chicken between the two of them, Lassie would defer to Willie.
What does that mean? Got me, but I’m thrilled that someone is finally doing good science on a very, very interesting and important aspect of canine behavior. I’m so curious about your own experience… tell me what patterns you’ve observed. If you have a multi-dog household, is there a pattern about who goes where and when?
I’ll write next post about the second phase of her research, and more about some of the other interesting talks. I’ll catch up on answering your comments someday, I promise. Gotta go now to give my students their exam, and then go home to collapse. (But hey, I’ve read every magazine in the house.. a rare event!)
Jessica says
I don’t have a multi-dog household often, but when I do, my female Pyr is a definite over-marker in the yard (regardless of the sex of the guest). This is pretty consistent in spaces I think of as being “hers”, such as our property or my in-laws’. Out and about on walks, she’s more of a adjacent marking dog. What a fascinating dissertation! I’d be interested what role temperament (either individual or breed-specific) plays in this behavior, and what it ultimately means in the dog-communication vocabulary.
Feel better!
Shannon says
I only have one neutered male in my house and he’s not an obsessive overmarker, but he will overmark some when we’re out walking.
My dad’s pack is another matter…his dog are 11, 3.5 and 1.5 years old and all males. The 11 and 1.5 year olds are neutered. The 3.5 isn’t (don’t even get me started on that!). The youngest is the low end of the totem and has absolutely no interest in overmarking. The 3.5 and 11 year old will overmark each other with the 3.5 year old winning most of the time. When I bring my little guy over (littermate to the 1.5 year old), the two older dogs will overmark his as well. My dog will go find older scents from the older two dogs and overmark those though. It’s pretty complicated and tiring to watch!
As for getting along in the household: The littermates are great friends. My dog loves the 3.5 year old but will get into scraps with him over resources in the house (could be the neuter/intact thing or just resource guarding from an outsider, not entirely sure). And my dog and the 11 year old dislike each other.
Phew!
Jude says
really interesting. my girl always lifted her leg and marked over our male dog, but then sometimes he’d mark that again as well. I’m interested in knowing about some females that have been the only bitch in a male litter. I’ve heard there is research on bitches exposed to high testosterone in litters of males and that they may have more male like behaviors as a result- leg lifting, scent marking. any references to that appreciated.
J
Laura Waudby says
Very interesting. I work at a doggy daycare (spayed and neutered dogs only, or puppies) and of course we get a lot of marking and then sniffing of the pee from both sexes. I also have noticed that if the sniffing dogs are going to pee, the males mark on top, and most of the females mark about 1ft away. However, it is frustrating to us that a lot of times right after we mop up the spot, a dog will immediately come and urinate in the exact spot we just cleaned up- would this be considered overmarking or adjacent marking since they wait until it was cleaned?!
Kate says
Interesting topic. My neutered, male 5yr-old GSD sniffs intently at every urine patch that we pass on our walks, but he’s never over-marked or adjacent-marked; he *rarely* urinates anywhere except in his designated spot in our yard. While sniffing, his tail position is low, but not tucked. Once or twice he’s shaken himself out (did he assess a high risk, get stressed, and is de-stressing?) And he pees like a girl 🙂 He is dog-dog reactive, and submissive to us.
Kate says
ps – I hope you feel better soon! Your blog is one of my favourite Web sites!
Susan Anderson says
I read your post about scent marking with interest. I have a 7 year old Japanese Akita female, Kitara. We have a one dog and one cat household. Kitara is well socialized and friendly to 100 % of the time with people and children and 99 % of the time with dogs she meets. She checks them out and if she senses a challenge she will react, but backs down if corrected soon enough. She is used to both on and off leash interactions. The older she has gotten the more aloof she is with other dogs. She has never shown any toy or food possessiveness with other dogs and in fact when we have visitors she will allow them (the dogs!) to eat her food right in front of her.
On our walks and at the park she is a dedicated sniffer and will scent mark directly over the urine of other dogs 100% of the time. She squats but also lifts her right back leg ever so slightly and daintily, like a dancer, I have never seen a female dog do that. When she is urinating she squats more deeply and does not lift her back leg at all. I have always thought the need to mark on top of other dogs urine is because of her breed and something to do also with dominance.
Thanks for this info, I enjoy all of your posts and have been a dedicated fan of your radio program (so sorry that has ended) and books for years! I look forward to reading more about this issue and other subjects. I hope you are soon feeling better.
Michelle says
I hope you feel better soon!
My female dog seems to alternately mark over the urine of others or mark nearby. She’s certainly interested in it. I had no idea how much so until this winter when I could see what she was sniffing! She spends most of her time rushing from one urine spot to another. Some she marks over; some she marks near; and others she just passes on. I always wonder what makes her choose one of those behaviors over the other.
The dissertation sounds very interesting!
Liza Lundell says
I have 3 dogs–2 spayed bitches and a neutered male.
The worst marker (and she definitely over-lays other dogs’ urine) is the oldest bitch. She is the queen of the universe, and accepted as such by the other dogs. She also lifts a hind leg sometimes while urinating. She did not read the dissertation, what she does is very much marking, sometimes only a drop or two, but on top of the urine spots.
The younger bitch seems not to care very much, she doesn’t spend a lot of time sniffing at urine spots and I’ve never seen her deliberately overmarking another dog’s urine. She is a very relaxed and confident dog, but has no desire to rule the universe.
The male is sire to the younger bitch, but did not come to live with us until she was 8 years old, so they were strangers to each other. He marked a lot over her spots, but that has decreased over the year and half he’s lived with us. Some of the decrease may have been caused by my response to the time he actually urinated ON his daughter while she was urinating. It was not positive, but it was pretty spectacular. I definitely got his attention. He spends a lot of time sniffing during walks.
This is such an interesting subject!
Liza
Susan Anderson says
I read your post about scent marking with interest. I have a 7 year old Japanese Akita (high tale position) female, Kitara. We have a one dog and one cat household. Kitara is well socialized and friendly to 100 % of the time with people and children and 99 % of the time with dogs she meets. She checks them out and if she senses a challenge she will react, but backs down if corrected soon enough. She is used to both on and off leash interactions. The older she has gotten the more aloof she is with other dogs. She has never shown any toy or food possessiveness with other dogs and in fact when we have visitors she will allow them (the dogs!) to eat her food right in front of her. She also allows the cat Lily to eat out of her bowl and take her treats.
On our walks and at the park she is a dedicated sniffer and will scent mark directly over the urine of other dogs 100% of the time. She squats but also lifts her right back leg ever so slightly and daintily, like a dancer, I have never seen a female dog do that. When she is urinating (as opposed to marking) she squats more deeply and does not lift her back leg at all. I have always thought the need to mark on top of other dogs urine is because of her breed and something to do also with dominance.
Thanks for this info, I enjoy all of your posts and have been a dedicated fan of your radio program (so sorry that has ended) and books for years! I look forward to reading more about this issue and other subjects. I hope you are soon feeling much better.
stephen summerlin says
We have two dogs now, both males, one is a little blind Sheltie named Chance, the other dog is Diesel, a Great Dane Pit Bull mix. Diesel leads the pack, but Chance makes sure that he pees everywhere Diesel does. Often Diesel comes back and tries to remark some of the spots. They seem to want to poop as far away from one another as they can, I am not sure why, or if it has any bearing on the subject. They do seem to both want to mark the same spots along the perimeters of the fence. Thanks for a great blog I will be clicking the rss feed!
Lybertygirl says
WOW, I can’t wait to hear more. I have a terrible time with my Cardigan Welsh Corgi males (both neutered and intact) marking my kitchen table chair. My husband and I have had lots of discussion about why they do that and the fact the it seems to increase when one of our bitches nears her season.
Jennifer Hamilton says
Trish…I am very excited about reading some of the findings from this conference. Are any of the papers published in a format that can be purchased or requested? I understand that attendance is limited to those that present, which is a shame, but understandable. I’m just wondering if there is any way to read the papers or presentations after the fact?
Also, I have been reading Karen Pryor’s older book “On Behavior. Essays and Research” and found her discusion of animals “training the trainer” very interesting. I have become aware over the past 2 years of how my dog has taught me which treats she prefers over other treats and how she has figured out when multiple treat options are available (i.e. “I would like the roast beef cube rather than the cheese cube, please”) and when they are not (i.e. “Since I know the cheese cube is your only option, I will accept it as my reward”).
Having lots of experience with my dog turning her nose to certain rewards when more desirable rewards are available, but gladly accepting that same reward when others are not, I just realized my dog has completely trained me in her heirarchy of rewards. I even know now which chewstick, by brand, in order of preference floats her boat, by how she moves her eyes, nose and body when presented with each one. If she knows I have multiple options in the vicinity, she gives me a certain “try again” or “go back to the drawing board” look when I reach inside my treat pouch or treat bin and pull out a magnitude say, 3, reward. At the same time, if there are NO other options in the pouch or bin, she will immediately take a magnitude 3 as if it was loaded with value. It’s kind of like she’s developed her own “oopsy, try again” way of teaching me that she always wants the treat with the highest value in my pouch. It looks a lot like the same “oopsy, try again” approach I use with her when I’m trying to shape her behavior.
Sometime down the road, when you’re looking for a new behavior topic (although I’m sure you’ve got plenty to last a while afte the conference), I would be very interested in others’ experiences with their dogs “training the trainer”. It’s actually quite fascinating to me now that I’m seeing it more objectively for what it is.
Crystal says
I can’t wait to read more!
I have a spayed female. I’ve noticed that she’s generally very interested in urine smells, but rarely marks. When she does, it’s usually near, but not on, the spot she was investigating.
Kathy says
My female Golden Retriever overmarks my male sometimes. Not always, but often enough that I’ve noticed it. I haven’t noticed her overmaking my older female.
Don says
Trisha,
I hope you feel better soon!
You probably know that Bekoff published a single-dog study on scent marking, thinking that dogs might be able to recognize themselves in olfactory sense in an analogous way to how humans and a few other species can recognize themselves in visual sense (i.e., the “mirror test,” which dogs reportedly fail), but of course his findings were limited and indirect. I think that more study of scent-marking could show that dogs are processing a great deal more than we can know with just our eyes.
Lisa says
I have six dogs…from a long-haired Chihuahua to Labs in size. All are spayed and neutered(two feamles, four males), although the Chihuahua (who was a stray) was spayed around four years of age and had evidence of having puppies sometime in her previous life. Interestingly enough, she will mark over the other dog’s urinations and tends to pull her leg up towards her shoulder in doing so. She is definitely the most dominant in that she will steal the hollow bones with treats stuffed inside from any and all of the dogs..and they let her.
Never thought I’d ever have a Chihuahua, but she’s definitely sweet, smart, and interesting as hell!
Jacque says
I have 12 intact, adult dogs (I am a breeder) and they live as family, not in a kennel. So, they are allowed to “potty” as any pet would.
Of our 6 girls we have one that overmarks. She is also very masculine in her other behaviors. She often mounts the other females, she urinates ON her possessions and she is very interested in the scent of all of the other females, but especially those in or near their cycle. She spends A LOT of her outdoor time sniffing urine and scat.
The other females do not over mark at all. They are interested in the scent of the others, but not overly so. The only real draw for these females is when another is in heat or there is a new dog (or puppies) going potty in the same area.
Our males, of course, have marking competitions…but since your concern is with female marking, I won’t go into detail with the males.
I will mention that I recently read (and this has not been commonly discussed) that scientists believe that, in the wild, anal gland secretion was also a marking scent. I think that there is something to that, too, because my dogs (male and female, even puppies) deficate in an effort to leave their scent on new surfaces or in new regions.
Our neighbors have intact males that come to the fence line of our property (to taunt our dogs) and they always deficate if my dogs are out. If my dogs are not, they don’t eliminate there.
The elimination cycle does not seem like a random act, but rather an intentional event.
Interesting study!
Kelly Ladouceur says
Great topic, and I’m definitely interested in learning more about it. I’d love to know how hormones factor into scent marking, and how much of an influence Anneke sees hormones as having in the process. I have an 11 month old male (intact) that was housetrained prior to my intact female starting her heat cycle. During that month, he marked everything and everywhere (thank goodnessfor belly bands, as my dogs are house dogs!). Now that her season is over, he seems to be reverting to his housetrained state. That surprises me – I always thought the intact male would continue scent marking at the same rate once they got that idea into their heads.
Anyhow, it sounds like you attended another great seminar. Thanks for sharing the information with us.
Traci says
Hi, Trisha! This is a fascinating topic. I live with two dogs: a four-year-old neutered male Boxer (Harry) and a three-year-old spayed female Labrador (Sophie). Harry is definitely the dominant party in their relationship. I have often seen him wait for Sophie to urinate and then overmark the spot. He is an enthusiatic over-marker while on walks, as well. I have often wondered about the dogs he is so diligently overmarking. Sophie, on the other hand, likes to urinate specifically on the property of other female dogs. I have always assumed this to be a marking behavior, and am now looking forward to reading more about “adjacent marking”, as I wonder whether this is what she is doing.
Both my dogs are grateful for your work. It has enhanced their lives tremendously.
Jennifer Hamilton says
Tool Use or Not? Please advise.
My Doberman Pinscher has the obsessive gene (the one that has been scientifically studied in Dobies) and it manifests primarily in a yellow tennis ball obsession (not balls, not tennis material toys, not orange tennis balls, not yellow tennis balls on ropes…just plain yellow tennis balls…she simply cannot think straight if one is in sight.)
My Dobbie and Portuguese Water Dog love to play tug-of-war with toys as well keep-away. Before the game can begin, my Dobbie has to hide her coveted tennis ball in another room. (My PWD on the other hand could care less about tennis balls and never bothers it when its around the house.) After the Dobie hides the tennis ball, the tug-of-war and keep-away game commences until some split second when my Dobbie’s fixed action pattern of “shake & disembowel” kicks in and the game comes to a screaching halt with my Dobbie becoming 100% focused on tearing the toy to shreds. Game over.
In the beginning, my PWD would go get another toy to entice the Dobie, but the fixed action pattern of “disemboweling” was too strong and the Dobie would pay no attention to her efforts to restart the game.
Over the past couple of months, however, my PWD has figured out (all on her own mind you) that if she goes and gets the hidden tennis ball from the other room and then rolls it past the Dobbie while she is “shaking and disemboweling” the toy, my Dobie simply can not resist the tennis ball being out in the open and immediately drops the toy, runs after the tennis ball and attempts to rehide it for good measure. At this point, my PWD grabs the original stuffed toy, starts running around to re-initiate a game of keep-away and, after my Dobbie re-enters the room, the game of tug-of-war resumes.
Is this possibly tool use? Clearly my PWD has developed some level of thought as to how valuable the tennis ball is to the Dobie and that if she distracts her with it, she can get what she really wants…namely, to stop the disembowelment, win back control of the toy and hence the game to resume. Today, my PWD was so obvious that she actually walked over to my Dobie and dropped the tennis ball on her head while the Dobie was hard at work destuffing the toy. It worked beautifully. At no other time has my PWD ever gotten the tennis ball out of it’s hiding place except when trying to distract the Dobie long enough to stop her undesirable individual behavior and resume the more desirable interactive game behavior.
Clearly my PWD must be thinking about what my Dobie is thinking (i.e. my Dobie’s value system) and how to affect change using another object in the environment to get what she wants. Although this is not the same kind of tool use seen by those birds with their metal wires, isn’t it still an example of self-taught tool use?
I’m very curious to know what you or your students think.
Jennifer
lin says
My bossy old lady dog adjacent-marks after she reads her pee-mail, although once in a while I’ll notice that she will, if not quite lifting her leg, mark higher than normal on a spot.
Interestingly, one of her dog park acquaintances, a slightly less bossy female dog, waits until my dog has pooped, then urinates on her feces.
Anneke Moore says
Hope you feel better soon, Trisha. You can’t have picked up some bug in our sunny Tucson, I am sure…
We have 2 dogs, an 8-year old SheppaMute(German Shepherd-Malamute mix) and a 1-year old Yellow Lab. Both were spayed early in life. The SheppaMute overmarks the Lab’s poop and pee when they are out together. She also overmarks coyote poop without fail. I wonder if there is a correlation between this overmarking and her lack of confidence. The Lab could not care less and just wags her way around the world. Saying hello to all rabbits is her avocation.
Jennnifer Hamilton says
I own a social pet resort and am occasionally the person who lets all of the social boarding dogs out at 10:00pm at night or 7:00am in the morning. As I watch the 20 dogs or so dogs isolation pee, adjacent pee and overmark pee, I find it very interesting as I compare it to their behaviors in their social playgroups during the day. In my experience and generally speaking, it is not unusual for the alpha and omegas to be the least bit focused on where they pee…while the betas and young adults seem to be the most focussed on their pee strategy. From my experience watching them during the day in social playgroups, this is also consistent with their dominance displays in social settings. The alphas and omegas already know their place while it’s the betas and young adults that seem to scuffle or attempt to exert themselves over others.
P.S. All of the dogs in our social groups must be neutered or spayed once they are over 1 year of age, so I have next to no expereince with intact males and females in this type of social pee/social play environemnt.
Fascinating Indeed!
Joanna says
My overmarking bitches (I’ve had two) were not the dominant ones–they were the social climbers, the ones who felt that they had to make the biggest statements about ownership. We have one now, a little Papillon-mix bitch (2 years old, spayed) who consistently overmarks, leg-lifts, retains urine so she can dribble fifteen times, obsesses over scents, etc., but she is NOT the dominant bitch in the house. She’s just the one who cares the most about “stuff.” My genuinely dominant bitches seem to feel no need to mark OR overmark; they pee nonchalantly and confidently, the way they do everything else.
Sabine says
Hi Trisha,
I own a pack of three. One of them has had potty issues because she is a puppmill survivor and had to be rehabilitated to be able to join the “real world”. The other one is a retired show dog (male) and the third and youngest one I had since she was eight weeks old.
These three have, what I call a “peeing-ritual”. :O The Puppymill-dog, Bicalina, will only pee, if Tessa, the shepherd, pees first. The pee of the girls is then topped off by Rodney, the one and only male in the household. If Rodney is faster than Bicalina, Bicalina will not pee. (I never wrote this down – it’s cracking me up ! 😀 ) On walks, Rodney will mark every blade of grass if he has to, whilst the girls aren’t really into that.
I have an interesting marking story to tell though and it took me forever to figure this one out: Every morning I found the corner cabinet in the kitchen marked with a dachshund puddle. No matter how much vinegar or enzyme cleaner I poured over that spot, it kept reappearing on a regular basis. Quite annoying, really ! X(
One day it dawned on me: Hubby dearest always let one of the dachsies lick the shepherd’s food bowl after she was done eating and whichever dachsie did NOT get to lick the bowl would pee on the corner. LITTLE SATAN DOGS ! 😛
We made the test and low and behold. On days, when nobody got to clean the bowl, the corner stayed dry ! Ever since I took possession of it, the marking seized. Another ritual the dachsies have to endure since, is to politely sit and wait to be released towards their (full) dishes. That was quite a challenge to get them there, but my cabinet has never been dryer since. I guess I just had re-establish rank here. 😀
http://img9.myimg.de/11408DieFellnasen3d3358.jpg
Greetings and I hope you feel better soon !
Betsey says
I have an intact female border collie and often have a visiting “granddog” who is a neutered male. The marking is very useful for those late-night potty trips outside–once either one pees, the other rushes to cancel it out. I find this very helpful! I’ve had mostly lady dogs over the years and this is the first one that I’ve noticed marking.
Carolynn says
This was fascinating to read this morning. Ironically I was just thinking about this very thing after what I observed again morning.
We just added two new foster dogs to our existing pack of three border collies. Just this morning I let all five dogs out in the yard together while watching them closely for any signs of problems through the window.
My existing pack consists of two spayed females and one neutered male. The two fosters are one male and one female.
The neutered male foster dog went about his business this morning marking every other tree and various spots in the yard. My existing neutered male followed him about and marked over his scent each time.
Then here is the funny thing. The spayed female foster did her business in the middle of the yard. The male foster went over immediately and marked over the top of it. Then my existing male marked over that. Then the two existing spayed females came and marked over it. Not in the same area but right over it. It was a virtual pee fest.
Susan Mann says
Wow- interesting stuff! I have a 3 dog household, 11.5 year old NM Border Collie (Brodie), 11 year old SF ? BC/Spaniel or maybe Aussie Spaniel or Golden mix (Kyp!) and 19 month old intact female Border Collie (Arie), who (just about the time she first came into season) started overmarking Kyp! and has just started overmarking Brodie also, though not all the time. Which is interesting as she is pretty submissive to Brodie (who can be a bit of a jerk) and Kyp! (with whom she plays quite a bit) in the house. Outdoors its starting to be a different story- it used to be Arie trailing Brodie (at a distance) on our walks in the woods, whereas now she is forging ahead and he is following her, and she is willing to race (and beat!) him to a thrown toy whereas before she’d let him get it if he even just started towards it.
Samantha says
My 11-year old Kirby is at the bottom of the pack, yet when our old alpha female was alive, he would follow her around the yard waiting to sniff and overpee. He doesn’t do this with the younger male, who is probably now head of the pack since Jenny died. He does, however, adjacent pee after Zach pees. He always deferred to Jenny, but now she’s gone, he’s a bit more assertive. She was a terrible bully to him, but he’s been quite liberated with her gone. Both boys mark a lot on walks and Kirby marks all over the yard. Zach only pees in the yard, doesn’t lift his leg. Very interesting topic!
Sara Reusche says
I have two dogs, a spayed female and a neutered male.
Layla is very hyper-vigilant about other dogs. After encountering a dog on a walk (either being followed by a loose dog or passing by a leashed dog) she frequently urine-marks and sometimes defecates too. In the winter, she climbs to the top of the tallest snow bank to do this (which can be over my head some days here in Minnesota)! If there are no handy snow banks available, she will do a hand-stand against a tree, mail box, etc to pee high up on it. She usually urinates over my other dog’s spots. She leg-lifts frequently. That said, she very rarely urinates over other dogs’ spots but rather goes about a foot to the side. Her tail posture when smelling other dogs’ urine is typically high over her back. By the way, snow makes all of this so much easier to observe!
Duke the Labradork likes to pee on pretty much everything, but spends little time investigating where other dogs have gone. Layla can spend 2-3 minutes smelling before she marks, Duke usually smells for 10-15 seconds before peeing. He pees indiscrimately either over other dogs’ spots or beside them and doesn’t double-back to “check” after he’s peed. He has peed on the heads of two other walking partners (an elderly spayed female Golden and a young insecure neutered male JRT). Layla tries to pee on Duke’s head frequently and will lift one back leg, then hop backwards towards him when he’s busy investigating something (obviously I interrupt this!).
I have no idea what all of this means, but it’s fascinating nonetheless! 🙂
Joel says
First I apologize for not having the time to read all the responses so I don’t know if someone already mentioned this. I currently do not have a dog but am very interested in them. I have done quite a bit of reading including books and internet sources and something Cesar Millan had said sticks out. He said that urine marking is a dominance issue and that as a dog owner and your dog’s pack leader the human is the one who says where the dog is allowed to urinate and in this way reinforces his leadership role. Is this something that was studied or do you know anything about this particular area?
Trisha says
Jeeez, could we all just get together for coffee and tea somewhere and talk about this for a couple of days. Oh, yeah, okay, that’s sort of what we’re doing (but I do love matching faces to posts, I’m just so darned visual…).
So much to say, here’s a start:
1. There is indeed a phenomenon called “androgenization” in which female mammals are flushed with androgen in utero (which is a precursor to testosterone). It was first discovered in rats I believe, but there was some research in Great Britain on this in dogs. I can’t look up the source right now, if anyone has it, it’d be great if you’d send it in. The tendency of androgenized females is to display more secondary sex characteristics of males, including leg lifting, display less female typical mating behavior (less flagging or lordosis) and, by some reports, be more aggressive to same sex individuals (even more so than typical males.)
2. I’d call urinated over an area that was just cleaned ‘overmarking,’ because who knows what scents are still there. But perhaps it deserves a distinct name (but I wouldn’t call it adjacent marking if it’s in the same spot.)
3. Kate’s dog-dog reactive obsessive sniffer is exactly what I see in dogs who are uncomfortable around unfamliar dogs. When Willie was 7 weeks old he stopped as if struck by lightning at the entrance to the vet clinic. I finally had to pick up him and carry him inside, all the time thinking OH NO, is this going to be a dog-dog reactive dog? When he came out of the exam room, after impersonating a Golden Retriever with all the humans I LOVE EVERYBODY AND EVERYBODY MUST LOVE ME!!!! he saw a Bichon puppy (a puppy, is that clear? A 4 lb ball of fluff, right?) and threw himself under a chair in terror. Sure enough… Will and I have worked on his dog-dog reactivity for 2 1/2 years now… (and he never over marks either!)
4. Lots of female dog lift their leg a bit (even Lassie does quite often), but usually not as much as most males. It’s called, appropriately enough, Squat-Lift! (sounds like olympic weight lifting or something…)
Is it related to hormones? Status? Another question for research!
5. I love Jennifer’s H’s comments about her dog training her about preferred reinforcement. It is indeed a great blog topic… would be a good column for Bark magazine too, wouldn’t it?
6. No question in my mind that feces (with anal gland scents) can be used to mark too. And oh, those dogs that mark their treasures (including food) with their own urine… very “wild type”… foxes and I believe, coyotes, do quite often.
7. Interesting comment about a male marking a lot when a female was in heat, and then less so as she went out. Makes quite a bit of intuitive sense, but we know so little about it. Anneke purposefully kept females in pre-oestrous or oestrous out of her study.. too many factor to juggle, but boy would that be yet another interesting study.
8. Interesting comment also about lower status individuals doing a lot of marking at a pet resort. This brings up what I think might be an extremely important issue… the difference between status and ‘status seeking.’ I suspect that those are two completely different issue. One relates to established social relationships, the other to the desire of an individual to be high status (or not.) It seems to me that dogs are much like people, in that some care deeply about social status, while others don’t seem to care much. (unlike wolves and common chimps, who are, every one of them, obsessed with social status). This is definitely fuel for another blog!
Gotta go now, but keep the comments coming, such a great topic! I’ll will post more on the conference (and now, the talks aren’t written up anywhere, although some of them will or have been published. The first part of Anneke’s study is coming out in Animal Behavior, I’ll let you know when it’s out.
Trisha says
Whoops, there’s a typo in my comment above.
I meant to write “(and no (not ‘now’), the talks aren’t written up anywhere……
Sabine says
Hi Trisha,
that expression “wild types” marking their food pretty much fits the description of my hunting obesessed male dachshund. 🙂
Check this out: http://img9.myimg.de/highres31465611624b.jpg
Would you want to meet him in a dark alley ? *lol*
Sabine says
…..and I put in the wrong link – sorry.
It was supposed to be this one: http://666kb.com/i/b71im1d8k7ur66lwv.jpg
I apologize. :O
patti says
I’ve had two spayed mixed-breed females that over-mark. Both lift their legs while doing so. One, the dominant one in the household of 3, (1 other neutered male) and also the oldest, would literally back up to street signs, trees, etc., then lift her leg to leave her mark over other dogs. Sometimes she hit her mark, sometimes she didn’t. It was certainly entertaining to watch. Both will sometimes mark within the yard, but this mostly occurs on walks.
Kaiser Soze says
Our neutered male seems to only overmark his own spots (or, that’s what I think at least). Everyday when we go for a walk he only urinates on the 2 or 3 “designated” spots by him, I’d be curious now to see if there are other dogs using that same spot, and THAT is the reason why he over-marks it.
But since he got neutered at an early age (4-5 months), I’m not sure if he got to develop that behavior at all. One of the books I’ve read about this subject linked the marking behavior to testosterone, stating that early-neutered dogs never get to develop it. Is that still accurate?
Ellen Pepin says
My late female girl, Nikki, used to both overmark and move away and then pee. She had a high tail position almost all of the time, but was probably what you term as an “alpha wanna be” My male dog, Dakota, spends a lot of time sniffing and then will overmark some but not all of the places he sniffed. Both of these dogs were spayed of neutered.
Ellen
Beth says
Both of my girls mark. Dasher raises her leg and marks a lot. Bella squats and marks less. Dasher hates to go out at night before bed, so I send Bella out first knowing that when Dasher sees her pee, she can’t resist going out and marking on top of it, and get a last pee in for the night.
Leslie Ann says
In trying to find some suggestions for marking issues I came across this site. We have a three-dog pack: Blaze a 6 year old Border Collie (male not fixed), Ben a 5 year old Black Lab mix (male fixed) and a Bo 1.5 year old Blue Tick Coon Hound (male not fixed). Last fall we moved into a house where the previous owners had 2 small dogs who had obviously eliminated regularly in the house (evidenced by stains on the carpets). Our hound has never been completely house trained, and regularly pees and defecates in the house. I am sure our dogs can smell the previous house owners’ dogs remnants, so it makes for a problem until we can afford to replace the wall-to-wall. We are trying to make sure the hound is fed, watered and exercised before bedtime so he’ll do his business outside, but it means training the people in the house to be on board with the program, too! The Collie was used to an open door policy in his previous house, so he could eliminate whenever he wanted (no schedule); for the most part he’s adapted to our new living arrangement, but also marks and defecates in the house. In the Collie
Jessie says
I have a 3 dog pack and was just directed to this blog. I am fascinated by this article and research. My dogs are all terrier mixes, 1 male and 2 females (all fixed). The female JRT does the overmarking only with the other female (a smaller, chihuahua/doxie, we think). Not only does she overmark, but sometimes she doesn’t wait at all and actually urinates ON the other dog. We have had aggression problems between these two females in the past. She also ALWAYS lifts her leg. Always. Does that mean something??
The same dog constantly urinates in the house. We finally ripped out the carpet she had marked beyond repair (urinating/defectaing pretty much every day), but now she is doing it on the kitchen rugs. I don’t know what to do with her.
Kat says
I’m fascinated by the behavior of my dog and his pals at the dog park. Generally my highly dominant dog is the last to pee in any given place. I’ll over two stories though that particularly struck me at the time. In the first, Ranger (possibly an English Shepherd) was already in the park and another dog (unknown mix) came and is customary after the initial pack sniff of the new comer the newcomer went over to pee on a particular piece of fence (I think of it as the guest book). Ranger sniffed it for a bit and over marked it. The new dog came back and over marked that. They went round and round the park for a good 15 minutes overmarking each other’s spots. A couple of times they stopped to drink water (refueling is how it looked to me.) Finally, Ranger peed over the other dogs last spot, the other dog sniffed for a long time and walked away. The pissing contest was over. Since I’ve always been taught that over marking is a dominance thing I wondered if the pissing contest was another way of working out pack ranking and if the scents the dogs were picking up as they sniffed changed, in other words if dogs can change the composition of their urine to express messages.
The second story involves Ranger and a border collie. They’ve known each other for a long time but seldom interact. The border collie loves to circle other dogs at play to “round ’em up.” Occasionally, when none of his particular friends are available for play Ranger will decide to herd the border collie. She always circles counter-clockwise except when Ranger decides to herd her forcing her to go in the opposite, clockwise, direction. This particular day she objected strongly to having her herding interrupted and charged him snapping at him. Ranger went away leaving her to her circling but the next time he marked a place she immediately left what she was doing and with only the most cursory sniff marked over the spot. Since he is roughly twice her size and consequently marks pretty high up on a post she had to contort herself quite a bit to over mark it. It looked to me like a continuation of her establishing that she had a higher rank in this temporary dog park pack.
Laney says
I’m interested in this as I have noticed consistent behaviour from my dogs which puzzles me.
I have 3 dogs, 1 male (neutered) german shepherd 5 yrs, 1 female (spayed) german shepherd and a 3 yr old female (un-spayed) lurcher. The GS bitch is definitely the boss, she is very dominant, and the lurcher is also quite dominant and the two don’t get on well at all as a result. I have noticed that the GS male sprays directly over everything he smells, which I would expect, the boss GS bitch does her toilet wherever she pleases and has no interest in covering other smells but the lurcher interests me most. She always, without fail, searches for where the GS bitch has urinated and sprays directly over. Even if she has nothing left she squeezes out a couple of drops. She shows no interest in covering anything else, including the male GS.
I wondered if this was a dominance thing – she’s trying to re-assert her place in the pack by covering? And the GS bitch is so sure of her status she doesn’t feel the need.
It’s really interesting stuff (for doggy lovers anyway!) and I’d be keen to hear more on any research done.
Allison says
I have 3 dogs — 2 intact German Shorthairs (6 years and 18 months) and 1 spayed 50-lb female “mutt” (8 years). We got the first GSP when my mutt was 3 and he was 1 year old. From the very beginning and to this day, my GSP must go find where my female urinated and then he licks it up (like he is drinking) then marks on top of it. He has a compulsion to do this, even if he did not go out with her. He always wants to go out and find where she tinkled and do this. Is this normal? Why does he do this?
Also, my 2 males are marking all over the house. I know I should not be surprised with two intact males. We are considering neutering them since we have decided not to breed either of them. With one male being 6 and the other 18 months, will neutering eliminate their desire to mark in the house? (I now understand the expression “pissin’ contest”.)
Claire says
I would be really interested to know what other’s think of my interesting experience today. I have two springer spaniels, brother and sister, both just turned 2 years old. The male dog scent marks a lot whenever we are out. He also always pees on top of his sister’s pee. I read in a Cesar Millan book that this is him saying to the other males in our area “this female is under my protection”.
Today I took them for a long walk and I had to go pee in the woods myself(!). My male spaniel sniffed it and then peed on top of the spot where I’d just been! I found it hilarious. Is he saying that he is defending me (he does love me A LOT), or is he trying to be dominant over me?
Generally I have asserted my dominance over them quite strongly as the pair of them are quite a handful (I make them sit before I open doors, I go through first, I eat first etc), so I don’t think I have any problem with him trying to dominate me; he doesn’t pee inside the house either. He is generally a very ‘secure’ dog I’d say.
What do other readers think about this funny behaviour? What does it mean?
ATB says
I walk my neighbour’s spayed one-year-old female, small mixed breed. The reason I started walking her was that the dog (Leah) was kept inside the small yard and never taken for walks.
There is no doubt she loved her walks right from the start and goes into fits of excitement when she hears my voice, but she was terrified at first and it took a couple of weeks to socialise her. She had no idea how to behave towards other dogs and challenged Dobermans.
I’m very fortunate in that I live 10-minutes’ walk from a mountain. So I walk her on the leash until we are clear of suburbia and traffic and then let her off-leash for the ensuing 4 to 5-hour walk.
Scent marking: I never saw her urinating at all the first few months. Now that she is confident, she scent-marks at regular intervals. However, only on the mountain, once she is off the leash.
The first 10-15 minutes of the walk, while we are negotiating suburban pavements, she sniffs a lot, but never pees.
Unfortunately I have no way of telling whether she is overmarking on the mountain. For obvious reasons I’ve avoided areas where people usually walk their dogs (so she probably had maiden territory to mark). But even now that we are starting to walk more popular trails, meetings with other dogs are just a little bit fraught and no peeing of any kind takes place – not by her or any of the dogs (large or small, singly or in packs) that we encounter.
Interesting about a previous post that told how she had to carry her dog. There were certain stretches of pavement past which I had to carry Leah, she just refused to budge, terrified. I assumed that stretch of pavement was marked by a huge, aggressive dog.
Coco's Mom says
I have a 2 year old miniature poodle…who has always marked and will over-mark…but the funniest thing is and I don’t understand this she mostly will pee standing up on her front 2 paws…so she pees doing a handstand….the higher the grass the higher her handstand…can anyone tell me why she does this, I have never seen it done before.
Thanks
Coco’s Mom
Debra Woodhall-James says
We have two Weimaraners, the 12 year old neutered dog always had an issue with urinating indoors, especially if it’s raining, even if the door is open he doesn’t go out, or if he is outside he’ll come in. Our 8 year old was not a problem always asks to go out, he dislikes the the older dog urinating indoors and if left together did nip him, so now if they are left the younger intact dog is muzzled. We are aware the younger dog is very dominant he worries the older dog in garden, so he won’t go if he is in garden unless we r present, or if he goes out on his own and is told to stay out til he goes. We now have a new problem our younger dog last week and this week has started urinating/ scent marking the stairs when we are bringing the older boy downstairs, he’s doesn’t usually scent mark indoors, but has always done it outdoors overmarking in the garden and whilst on walks. We can’t work out what is the new issue Re the stairs.
Carol says
What makes more sense? We have two English Bulldogs. After the carpet was cleaned they both came down and urinated on the sofa and carpet. I think they did it because it was raining cats and dogs and they didn’t want to get wet. My grandson insists it was because the rug was cleaned and they wanted to mark their territory. They had peed downstairs before the rug was cleaned, however it was on the tile leading to the carpet.
Wendy Frith says
Though I’m not a dog person I have been recruited to dog-sit for two neighbours simultaneously, owners of a lurcher and lab, respectively. Both dogs are female, know each other, and are skittishly friendly together. The lab is spayed; not sure about the lurcher. I take them for walks separately. The lab just seems to relieve herself, taking a long, squatting pee once or twice. The lurcher stops constantly to sniff and pee. Though she sometimes squats, she usually lifts her leg and marks high up – higher than most males – on walls and trees. If there is a large plant pot, designed for small trees, she will actually hike her rear end over the top edge to pee into it. I was beginning to wonder if she is not only making comments to other dogs but also to human beings, as she will go into a garden and choose the most beautiful flowers to leave her mark on. A non-flowering clump does not earn her attention. The white lilies will be splattered yellow and become chalices of urine. She also defecates every time I take her out – 3 or 4 times a day – after a great deal of sniffing of the area she chooses. I don’t know how she does it; she’s not a big eater! And the two times I have let her into the lab’s house (never again) she has defecated once on its bed and once on that of the owner. I wondered if all this had something with her being a lurcher, which are bred for poaching. Perhaps she behaves more like canis canis than her the ultra-domesticated lab? She’s a nice, sweet-tempered animal, but I am not encouraged to go out and get myself a dog!
Kimberly says
Our 6 YO female GSD always smells other pee and poop. She will urinate directly on both. She is particularly fond of peeing on coyote skat. I view this as a territory issue on her behalf as she seems quite upset when she locates other animal markings. We have been told she is a dominate female – as other dogs approach her in crouching position and a lot roll over and show their bellies without her doing anything. She is very bossy with adolescent dogs that are hyper – she is very good with puppies and older dogs. She will play with boy dogs but doesn’t seem to like other females usually. She has had quite a few encounters with coyotes – from a distance – and she reacts to them differently. She does not bark as with house pets but she stops and stares and watches very closely. There is a walking path, reservoir and golf course behind our house. She will bark at almost every dog that walks by but not coyotes. If they are near our fence she will give one assertive bark and then stare them down. I am not sure how she would react if she came in close contact…
Kimberly says
Also… our vet has told us that our dogs actions also lead her to “mark” with poop once she is out of pee. She will force herself to go to the bathroom sometimes going before she should. Also lately she doesn’t want to dedicate in our yard – she holds it until her walks.
Kathy Smith says
I know you wrote this several years ago, but I remembered it after watching the behavior in my potty area among my 3 dogs. My spayed female Golden Retriever is 12. She pees first. Ace is an intact BC who will turn 4 in September 2018. He always waits for her to urinate, and then always overmarks. Always. He is most likely to get a foot stuffed toy if tossed among the dogs *if* Emma decides she does not want it. No one will challenge Emmam but if she doesn’t want a resource, Ace will take it. RMy other dog is an intact 8 year old BC who is very conflict averse, gentle, and easy going. He potties alone in a corner away from everyone else. He has been urinated on several times by Ace; Ace has never been urinated on by Revel. I should note that these dogs all get along very well and there has never been any conflict among them, although Revel is still disappointed that Ace the former puppy is still living with us after almost 4 years. 😉
Nicky Pemberton says
My Felix, a retired racing greyhound overmarks incessantly throughout his walk and retains urine (up to 21 hours!). He only sniffs urine spots for 10-15 seconds. The amount varies. He usually lifts his leg but sometimes squats. He greets politely, approaching in a C shape with his tail high and wagging and ears alert. At the off leash area, he loves to run up to urinating dogs and overmark.
When I sat for a female greyhound, also a marker, it was interesting. Felix would pee and Luna would stick her head underneath and get sprayed. Then pee in the same place. Then Felix would overmark it. She was much more interested in sniffing his pee than he was in hers. Gradually, he lost interest in overmarking hers but she went round the yard overmarking his.
She ran out of urine way sooner than Felix. When she didn’t have any urine left to mark a sniff spot, she’d poop.
Her owners, a young couple, thought that her indoor soiling was due to separation anxiety despite using the same place (the hallway carpet) even when they were home. She showed no distress behaviours or vocalizing and when they returned from their trip she didn’t show excitement. During her stay, she soiled (both pee and poop) indoors on the carpets and despite this Felix remained clean in the house. I wonder if it’s because I was very vigilant when I was house-training him and didn’t give him any opportunity to mark (close supervision) and interrupted his repeated attempts with a firm “No” and led him calmly out to the yard to finish (?) When I asked Luna’s owners how many times she had soiled in the hallway, they said they lost count a long time ago. Perhaps habituation plays a role even in scent marking.
Jayne Owen says
I have a 4 year old shipoo bitch. She’s decent marking all the time on her walks, she cocks her leg, does handstands (yes both back legs on the air), squats and as a result gets smelly because she peed on herself as she scents. She gets smelly very quickly so I have to bath her almost weekly. She is spayed. Have you come across this behaviour before?
Thanks.
Jayne Owen
Trisha says
To Jayne and her smelly Shipoo who pees on herself. I have indeed seen videos of dogs doing exactly what you describe, but I didn’t think about the fact that they’d pee on themselves. Well that’s yucky, you poor thing! If her behavior varies, you can try to reinforce more normal urination, or interrupt her with something distracting before she gets up onto her back legs. Basically you’d be shaping her by dividing her behavior into tiny units, and doing all you can to reinforce what you want and preventing her from handstanding/selfpeeing. Sometimes it helps to take a video of it and watch it over and over, looking for where you can reinforce and or interrupt. Keep us posted!