The Hope chronicles continue, with progress and problems. The good news is that Willie, on occasion, is stepping up to the plate a bit and not letting Hope bully him as often when they are in the house. As an example, ever since he was tiny, Hope has lept up growling and bitten at Willie’s shoulders as they move through space. At first I thought it was play, but if it was, it’s the kind of play in which one individual is having fun, the other not so much. Sometimes Willie seemed to ignore it, other times he’d tongue flick and look anxious. I came to see it more and more as a behavior related to controlling space, perhaps in part motivated by herding instincts, but rude nonetheless.
All Willie needed to do was snap at him one time, and I suspect it would have stopped. I’ve never seen Hope do this to any other dog; Hope is totally appropriate around all other dogs, giving lots of appeasement gestures or playing beautifully, with lots of self handicapping and never becoming overly aroused. As I’ve said earlier, I think Willie has a V for Victim on his forehead.
Recently, Willie has corrected Hope on a few occasions with a perfectly measured inhibited muzzle “bite.” (That is ‘discipline’ in dog language. A bite anywhere else, even if very inhibited, is either a fight or done in play). Willie’s corrections to Hope have been while wrestling/tooth fencing or over a resource. I don’t like Willie being a resource guarder (both he and Hope are to some extent), but I did love that Willie has gained a bit of confidence and is at least trying to teach Hope some boundaries. [And oh yes, yes yes, to the comments that perhaps it would be helpful to have a female like Tulip in the house. I have often said I wish she was still here for many reasons, Hope and Willie’s insecurities being one of them. But I should add that getting a third dog as an experiment to fix things between Willie and Hope doesn’t seem like a good risk right now, not for us and not for her.]
What’s concerning is that Willie’s behavior has recently degraded in other ways. Willie has regressed back to the fearful, neurotic dog he used to be. I believe that this is due to the fact that Hope has moved into a “Juvenile Shyness” period, and has begun barking and growling at unfamiliar shapes (strangely shaped signs, an empty grandstand, a large white rock). Hope adores people and other dogs, but if someone appears with a strange silhouette he’ll growl, lunge forward and bark. It’s very much “I’ll get you before you get me” and is, without question, fear-based.
Since this behavior appeared in Hope, Willie has behaved in ways that he hasn’t in years. While walking in town he barked and lunged at a small dog who was a good 40 feet away. He hasn’t done that in over two and a half years. He snarked and made ugly face to a BC he’s known for a long time, and was so worried about his presence on our entire 45 minute walk that he never stopped tongue flicking. Much of the time he hid behind my legs. Equally concerning is that recently he wouldn’t get near a man he knows well, and has always adored. Willie loves guys best, always has. It’s true that in his own juvenile fear period he began to act fearfully around unfamiliar men, but it was a mild version that was brief and was easily turned around. Willie’s major problems when he was young were a pathological fear of his own species, and an extraordinary level of sound sensitivity.
People who meet Willie now, at least until last week, often don’t believe me that Willie was a mess of fear and rage when he was young. He has lots of good dog friends. For the last year or so he has been completely comfortable around unfamiliar dogs he sees on the street, acting as though he’d love nothing more than to greet them. He’s greeted many unfamiliar dogs, loose bodied and comfortable, although I will say that size definitely matters. The smaller the better according to Will. He is, however, not comfortable with any other dog coming into the house, and large dogs in the house make him extremely anxious. (That’s part of why I wanted a puppy.) His girlfriend Mishka, the beautiful Dobie he loves to run with, made him a nervous wreck when she came into the house. The dogs he’s been most comfortable in the house with have been small, male Border Collies and a Cavalier.
Until recently, if you came to the house by yourself, or saw Willie out on the street around other dogs, he’d look like a happy, care free dog. But underneath that full body wag lies years of hard work trying to help Willie out of a world of fear and panic, and I am concerned that Hope’s behavior is bringing it back out. They both strike me as insecure dogs who are feeding off of each other. Right now I’m teaching Hope “What’s That?!” (look at something before barking, turn and get a treat). I’m back to conditioning Will that if he sees another dog he gets to play tug with his favorite toy (play is MUCH more effective with Will than food, vice versa with Hope).
Because so many of you have been so kind and gracious about my writing about my own dogs, and said that it was helpful to hear about them, I will share with you that my heart fell when I saw Willie bark, growl and lunge at another dog. When he backed away from a man he’s loved for years I was stunned –he’s always loved men except for a short juvenile period during which I had guys throw balls for him and he decided they were the best thing since, well, the invention of tennis balls. I suspect that many of you know what it feels like to have a behavior problem regress; it’s tough. Willie and I have come so far, and we have worked so hard together to get him to where he is. My first job now is to carefully evaluate the situation and do what I need to do to bring back Willie’s confidence. Raising and loving Willie, a dog with problems as serious as any I’ve seen in twenty-two years, has always been a challenge, and I admit to sometimes wishing life with Willie was simpler. But it’s not, and I love him, and that’s that. I love Hope too, and I am equally committed to helping him have the best life that he can. I’ll keep you posted.
Meanwhile, I’m interested in how many of you have raised dogs who have developed what I call Juvenile Onset Shyness (fear of unfamiliar things or people developing from around 5 to 9 months of age). I’m curious about the breed effect–it appears to me to be especially common in herding and guarding breeds, but I don’t believe there has been any study that compared it’s occurrence in different breeds. Anyone know of any? Of course it varies from a short, temporary period of mild fear of unfamiliar things to all out fear-based aggression, but I’m curious if there is a breed-specific predisposition. We do know that shyness is highly heritable, so it would make sense to be affected by breed and lines within a breed. Anyone seen any research?
Meanwhile, not on the farm (at least in the photo) here are the boys on Sunday morning, looking out of the balcony where we stayed in town so that the farm house floors could be refinished. It was fun to be in town in many ways, and good for the dogs, but ooooh, it’s nice to be home to the farm now.
Kat says
Not that I am any kind of expert or even a person with much experience but I’ll take the plunge and toss my thoughts out for whatever they might be worth. The thing that strikes me is that you have Will who is not a calm and confident dog and you have a puppy going through all the puppy stages without a resident good role model. Will would probably be happier as the dog not in charge but Hope isn’t grown up enough to be the leader. I understand your reluctance to bring in another dog to fill the leadership role serving as an anchor for Will and a role model for Hope. It doesn’t seem fair to place that burden on a new dog. However, to me at least that’s the missing piece, a calm confident dog that anchor’s Will and gives him the security he lacks in this unfamiliar role as puppy role model and an example of good leadership for Hope to emulate. In your shoes I suspect I’d be putting the word out to my network of dog folk that I was considering adding a third dog if the right one came along and hoping like heck I recognized her/him when they did come along. Meanwhile I’d be taking Hope and Will out alone as much as possible.
I adopted Ranger at a year old so I missed the puppy shyness. On those rare occasions he sees something that concerns him on a walk (brown paper leaf bags left out with the trash is one memorable example–this after walking through an unexpected construction site at the end of our driveway and past a street sweeper without turning a hair) we stop and observe for awhile, then take a step forward and wait to see if it will get us, repeat as necessary until I can put a hand on it once I touch it Ranger figures it’s safe for him to investigate. He gives it a good sniff and that’s never a concern again. After three years in my company he’s beginning to take my word for it that the scary big box next to the recycling bin isn’t a threat so it doesn’t take long to get close enough I can touch it and prove it is safe anymore. Initially it could take five minutes or more.
All good luck in your efforts with Will and Hope.
Joanna Kimball says
I’ve certainly noticed a marked change in behavior in the second half of the first year, but I’ve never thought of it (the barking and increase in warning behaviors) as being shyness. I think it’s just that the dog is realizing that things are actually threats and that it has a responsibility to respond to them. Baby puppies experiment; older puppies start to connect real objects to real consequences.
I think it’s analogous to the way human pre-adolescents suddenly become afraid of war or robbers or murderers – the move into the knowledge of the “real world” creates exaggerated responses to threats. The pre-adolescent dog is taking on a guard/scout role and feels its responsibility keenly, over-reacting to every possible thing.
A good stable older dog spends a lot of time at this age correcting the puppy, either by example (the puppy will go nuts barking at a rock, then look at the older dog; the older dog will be very obviously bored and uninterested and the puppy will later edit its response) or by physical correction. Mine will all line up at the fence to check out someone walking toward them and will all alert-bark; the current puppy (whoever he or she is) will often continue to bark after the others realize that there’s no threat. The older dogs will swiftly move to correct the behavior, and pretty soon the puppy quits with the group.
If the puppy doesn’t get good modeling or good guidance, you end up with fixations and fears. A dog with a high alert threshold, like a typical Golden, isn’t too badly hurt by this. A dog with a low alert threshold, like a BC, spirals into obsession all too often. I think raising a puppy of any breed without a calm, measured older bitch around is difficult, but in a herding breed? I think Willie’s inability to calm Hope down is doing as much, if not more, to make Hope afraid than he’s doing it back.
As an aside, mine do NOT confine corrections to muzzle bites; muzzle corrections are rather rare. They correct with a hard poke or open-mouth hit at the end of the ribcage or (if they are all in one plane) on the cheek or under the ear. If that doesn’t do it, they hit the other dog in the shoulder, roll her, and stand on her.
em says
I’m sorry to hear that Willie and Hope continue to suffer from tension in their relationship. I don’t know if it’s truly an analagous situation, but puppies tend to jump excitedly around my great dane’s head and shoulders, too, perhaps sensing that he is totally passive around them, but perhaps simply reacting to his height. Most of them don’t nip or persist for too long-it’s more common to see them frantically licking at his face, which I’ve always interpreted as a desire to ingratiate themselves and/or beg for attention from a dog whose size evokes a parent/pup relationship. Otis is generally tolerant, but if a pup is nippy or very persistent, he will show signs of anxiety and do his best to move away. I have no idea what would happen if Otis actually had to live with one of these pups, but I suspect he’d spend at least a few months fairly unhappy, pestered but not willing to retaliate.
Of the six or seven pups that Otis saw through puppyhood and still sees regularly, every one has grown out of this ‘baby bullying’ phase (on a few occasions Otis had to lay down the law with hard eye contact and paw thwaps, and once with a growling stare down) somewhere between five months and a year old. It sometimes takes considerably longer (a year or more) before Otis fully accepts the puppy into his play group, but he stops feeling anxious about their unwanted behavior and starts establishing boundaries when the puppies enter adolescence.
On that note, I would also add that adolescent male dogs, particularly high energy, very excitable, intact adolescent male dogs are the MOST likely to ‘upset the applecart’ if they approach a group of adult dogs. Many times I’ve witnessed dogs playing and socializing in a relaxed way become aroused, reactive, uncharacteristically domineering around ‘teenage boys’. I’ve never seen a real fight break out, but I have seen these dogs get ‘jumped’ by the whole pack on many occasions- chased, sniffed, mounted, growled and grumbled at, and sometimes knocked, mouthed, or pinned down. Otis won’t typically start this kind of behavior, but he will sometimes join in if I don’t pull him out of the group right away. It doesn’t seem to happen with dogs who have been part of the group since small puppyhood, but when a new teenage boy approaches a group of adult males, there does seem to be a tendency for the group to establish boundaries in a forceful way.
On the issue of the ‘shy phase’, I can say that Otis went through something very much like that, but in young adulthood. I *think* it was triggered by a disastrous obedience class, but Otis went through a phase lasting almost six weeks during which he reacted to EVERYTHING. He was jumpy, constantly scanning for danger, freaking out about garbage cans, chairs thrown out on the curb, noises and sights he’d never worried about before. He was very, very anxious about approaching dogs on leash and had a couple of episodes of barking/lunging toward ‘scary’ people as well. Most if not all of this behavior was linked to being on the leash, but he was edgy even in the house.
He was way too keyed up to accept food treats for classic counterconditioning, so we upped his off-leash exercise, tried to stay calm in the face of his tantrums, confidently approached all the inanimate things that freaked him out (he stopped being scared once he could smell the scary thing up close), avoided near passes with strange people and dogs and basically waited it out. He came out of it almost as abruptly as he began and we gradually began reintroducing the things that scared him until we’d reestablished our confidence in his reactions. He may have been triggered by a traumatic experience, but I strongly suspect that this episode was hormonally driven- Our vet found nothing abnormal in his exam or bloodwork- it struck Otis just as he was turning two (adulthood for a great dane) and I think that there was some sort of biological basis for such an abrupt alteration in his normal behavior, followed by such a dramatic return to normal behavior.
Alexandra W says
I’m thinking hopeful thoughts in your direction, Trisha! I love reading about Will and Hope, and I hope (heh) that things get easier for all three of you.
Whereas Joanna was thinking about human pre-adolescents, I was reminded of my nephew’s bout of toddler shyness that lasted from about 18 months to three years – we’d see him every few months, and I don’t think he remembered us very well; and he would be very, very shy with us. And it was interesting because he was a fearless, happy baby who loved to be around all kinds of people and never fussed if a person other than his parents picked him up. And then BOOM – he’s shy around strange people, he’s clinging onto Mom’s pantsleg, he doesn’t want to make eye contact.
Which makes me wonder: what is the purpose, the advantage, of this sort of developmental shyness? Why is it good for young animals to have outgoing stages and then shy stages?
Windrose says
I have a puppy going through this right now (the barking and increase in warning behaviors), until this moment I don’t think I realized what was going on or that is was a stage in growing up. She is my first puppy; a GSD mix for the record.
She very clearly depends on my Mastiff mix to tell her if she is barking at the right things. I do in a pinch, but she has quite literally gotten a second opinion from him before.
So thanks so much for the blog, especially with Hope being roughly the same age as my puppy I am learning a lot.
If the advise seems to be that another dog might smooth some things out, have you considered borrowing a dog short term; one that Will knows? Or fostering Hope with a dog with puppy experience?
Teri says
My labs have very mild fearful periods so haven’t really had your problem. I will say that I am very grateful for having spring/summer puppies as the socialization possibilities are much greater when the sun is shining then on our soggy west coast winter days. By the time the second fear phase starts the streets and trails are much emptier.
I’m wondering if perhaps one of the reasons Will is experiencing problems isn’t just Hope but that he is having to adjust to life without Lassie? I believe that Lassie was quite a calm, comforting presence for Willie and perhaps he would be having this same phase even if there were no puppy. The world just seems scarier without his more confident buddy? You have also been travelling a fair bit so maybe he is just really unsettled without his regular routines.
Is medication something you would consider for Will to help him through this phase? Have you consulted your chinese medicine guy to see if there are some calming herbs etc to help? Our homeopath recommended aconitum for fearful phases when our old girl when through a strange noise phase so perhaps that could help?
Brie says
Like you, I have seen ‘Juvenile Onset Shyness,’ in a variety of breeds. And, like you, I would say that I have observed it more often and to a greater intensity in herding breeds. The worst case I ever saw was in a Great Dane, to be honest, but I think she was rather exceptional in that she went, within a week, from being a friendly, apparently well-socialized dog to having bitten three people and caused at least one severe injury. Even after extensive training, she was put down at eleven-months, unfortunately.
As for my herding breed experience. I have worked most with Aussies and Border Collies. Although all nine of the Aussies went through brief, mild periods of shyness, they were far easier to work with and seemed to recover much more quickly and to be less ‘scarred’ by those fears.
I’m sure it isn’t what you want to hear, but I’ve seen Juvenile Shyness of greater intensity and longer lasting in Border Collies than any other breed. In at least two cases, I know of Border Collies who developed Juvenile Shyness, but did not receive training and correction of their behaviors and were fearful, reactive adult dogs when I began working with them years later. In both cases, I was told the problems had started when they were between 6- and 8-months of age and had ‘just gotten worse.’ One wonders why help wasn’t sought sooner . . .
I’m working with an eighteen-month old Border Collie now who is still suffering from what I would consider Juvenile Shyness. She is an unusual case, though. From the age of 3-months until 13-months, she spent her entire life indoors in a concrete/wire kennel at a vet’s office and received no training and socialization. When moved into a home, she began over-stimulating easily, although she was friendly and eager to meet anyone and everything. Then about a month later she began developing strange fears and sudden shyness. It’s just a theory, but I think she’s experiencing her adolescence later because she had no stimulation and no socialization for so long. She still acts and looks at the world like a puppy.
I will have to keep a watch on the responses to this. I’ve been very interested in Juvenile Onset Shyness, as you call it, for some time, ever since my experiences with the Great Dane I mentioned. It’s something of a little-understood phenomenon, I think. More research is certainly needed.
Rose T. says
Daisy started to develop fears a little later on in life after about the 2 year mark – she’s becoming increasingly afraid of flies and things frying on the stove – I think it’s the buzzing sound that effects her in both cases. She was so afraid at one point, she ran right passed me out the door and across the street and wouldn’t respond to her reliable recall – and she was close to 100% prior. Sometimes she becomes fearful in the house and then wants out – and then doesn’t respond to recall to come back in – it’s very distressing because this is a pretty obedient dog whose response to cues have become increasingly unreliable.
I spoke with the family that owns one of Daisy’s littermates and she has the same issue with Ryan, her male Brittany. He’s a truly athletic dog and competes in agility and the like – but sometimes he’s been so fearful, he’ll refuse to even leave the car or if he does get into the ring – he’ll sometimes run right out …..
She reports that his fears are very similar to Daisy’s – i.e. sometimes he’s afraid to go into the kitchen if the dishwasher is open, likewise Daisy has been afraid to enter the kitchen if there is a garbage bag in there….very strange that there are so “alike” in their fears – definitely supports the reports that fear can be based on genetics.
Hopefully things work out with Hope and Willie.
Rose
Joan says
I am not sure if I understood the question correctly but there are pointers, referred to as “nervous” pointers that have been selectively breed for this problem. there is also a breeding line of “shy” Siberian Huskies. Here’s a link. I think this first appeared in The NEW Yorker, ( the Bark for Humans.) http://www.jeromegroopman.com/articles/dog-genes.html
thanks for the blog, good luck with the dogs.
Beth says
Hmm. I noticed an increase in alert-barking at about the time my Corgi, Jack, developed his “big-boy” voice (around 6 months?) but never interpreted it as fear. This was a puppy whose reaction to new or scary objects outside was “I must go check that out!”; he had to be leashed as a little guy because he would confidently run TOWARDS “scary” sounds rather than staying by me.
When he hit early adolescence, he discovered that part of his “job” as an adult would be to let us know when Things Were Different, and so he would alert bark at inappropriate things: a cookie sheet, the coffee maker, a new sign. As he got older he learned to discriminate between what was important to warn me of, and what was not important.
On the rare occasion when he’s worried, this is a dog who tries to climb up on top of me, but mostly when he is on “alert” he heads towards the object of alarm, not away from it. And going towards things is what he did in his ‘high-alert” stage as a juvenile. Certainly bad experiences could have turned it INTO a fear stage (he became inexplicably afraid of brooms and mops around this age, for instance, and I had to desensitize him to those things). But overall, his increased alertness did not seem fearful at all. Since Corgis “job” was in part to guard the farm and drive off strays (more of an all-around farm dog than a pure herder), this high-alert stage, followed by a learning curve where he learned what was and was not worth sounding the alarm over, just seemed like a normal socialization stage to me.
I concur with those who are hinting, by the way, that the awkwardness now stems from the fact that Hope is more likely to be the “leader” of your two dogs but is not mature enough to assume that role.
Erin says
These comments are very interesting to read. I have an Aussie/BC/something else cross whom I adopted at 7 months. She received no socializations for her first 6 months and I have been dealing with a continually worsening problem of fear based behaviours … but reading here makes it seem like maybe it is also to do with Juvenile Onset Shyness. Her personality is mostly Aussie but she does have some BC behaviours and perhaps that is where these traits are coming from.
I very much enjoy reading about your experiences with your dogs. It’s nice to know that even people who are experts can still run into problems with their dogs. I say this only because I recently was verbally smacked down by someone who I asked for advice from regarding Maia’s behaviours. This person works in rescue and I thought she of all people would appreciate the fact that I was admitting that I am in over my head with Maia and would like to work with a trainer. Maia is the first dog I have had since my childhood dog and it’s validating to me to know that other people have issues with their dogs, even those who the rest of us go to for advice. 🙂
Sarah says
I have a Staffordshire Bull Terrier bitch, now almost 9 years, that went through a pretty noticeable fear stage in that age range… I can’t recall the exact age that it started, but I know it lasted a while. She had one memorable episode of barking at someone in Petco because his hair style frightened her (to be fair, it was a pretty scary hair style) I know there was quite some time where, if a group of kids wanted to pet the dogs, I’d have to direct them to my older dog, because that bitch couldn’t handle more than a couple kids at a time. She was never aggressive, just shy.
I was concerned about it when I was deciding whether to breed her, so I took her through a standardized temperament test, the ATTS test wasn’t available, so we did the GSD club equivalent. She was 3 at that time, and it was then that I realized she had really completely outgrown the shyness. She now does demos at schools, where she is mobbed by kids, and completely happy about it.
Her daughter went through a similar fear stage in about the same age range, but hers was shorter in duration and not as obvious. The next generation is 6 months now, and so far, is not showing any signs of that shyness, I’m hoping the trait is bred out. A temporary fear stage isn’t the biggest of deals, but if we can avoid it, that’s even better.
Wild Dingo says
“Juvenille Onset Shyness?” That’s what it’s called? Then my 3-year old GSD mix hasn’t exactly outgrown it! (ha-ha). Actually, he behaves a lot like hope in the neck biting through doorways. Normally my GSD mix and Siberian play very well together, and in fact, though the GSD is 40x stronger than the sibe, who has hip dysplasia, he dials down his play way low for her and is quite gentle. He also recognizes her as the alpha. and though both are NOT resource guarders, she’ll occassionally take advantage of him leaving a bone and take it back to her own bone so she has both (i’m able to take it back and give it back to the gsd of course), and the GSD mix has never tried to defend his resources from her, and has always let her take anything she wanted. That said, he still does that “neck biting through doorways” thing with her, which one could mistake for “being dominant” (oh the d word) or being alpha. But i’ve come to realize it’s a bit like a big brother pickin’ on his little sister. the little sister always gets what she wants but the big brother ocassional gives her the head noogy or push on the shoulder. i also know it’s redirected anxiety. my GSD is an anxious dog and whether it’s fear based or happy-anticipating based anxiety, he likes to redirect. opening the gate to let them to the outter yard is a bit of excitement and “big brother bully-game on” and the Sibe definitely doesn’t like it, though she will later play with him. she will cower from his advances through the gate (tho she is clearly alpha). one thing i’ve tried to do rather than voice correct is extinguish the behavior by not letting it happen. taking them on a heel through the gate and with no excitement in my voice, releasing them to play. only that never lasted. i’ve just over time taken to either voice correcting him off (it works but i always have to do it) or just interrupting it with my own body.
re: I’ll get you first. My GSD is 3 and is STILL like that mainly now with just big dogs. He’s actually quite good with most dogs, and will read dogs who are not interested in him, etc., but he always starts off with barking or acting insane. drives me insane. i’ve yet to figure out how to fix it. tried everything. i basically just add distance. and redirect. but nothing has completely fixed it from occuring in the first place.
i’m recently moved to Switzerland and neither dog has experience with large livestock (cows, horses etc.) i’m proud to say that my GSD knows the “look at that” game from his Schutzhund trainer in the States so i immediately played it and got within about 200 feet of horses and cows and donkeys with no barking. he loves the game. My sibe on the other hand doesn’t know the game (it’s the one game i never taught her) and for a dog who dreams about food 24/7, no amount of food can lure her attention away from the livestock. it’s hilarious. lucky for me, she doesn’t make a scene or bother them with barking. she’s just in complete stalking/prey mode and the leash contains her. i’m hoping over time she’ll desensitize to it as we walk through the farmlands daily.
My GSD is definitely NOT confident. he’s probalby not as severe as Will, but there’s a reason we named him “loki.” He’s made HUGE strides and improvements. I can’t believe i was able to put him on a plane and take him to switzerland. a dog afraid of crates, now willingly gets into his crate and loves “crate games.” (i have neat video on my site that demo’s the crate games). THAT all said, I will tell you that having made so many steps forward, I’ve had MANY regressions with him. MANY. Like, “i can’t believe that happened” and “he’s not done that in x years” etc. BUT i can honestly say, we’ve never stayed in that regression period for long. I think the bottom line is once a behavior is learned and no matter how much relearning goes on, there’s always going to be a return to original behavior when some stress is happening in their life. I think the same goes for humans. (sometimes ex-smokers light up when something huge happens in their life, for example) It’s what comes naturally to the dog or person to comfort themselves. Perhaps whatever is going on with Will is coming from an external stressor. whether the external stressor goes away, perhaps the best thing to bring comfort to him is remaining consistant with how you treat the undesired behavior. I’ve learned that consistency is what saves me every time and keeps him moving forward even if he’s made a few steps back.
I’m so sorry things are so difficult. But I wonder how much of this is just growing pains for Hope AND Will and that eventually they will find their place? I admitedly am trying to be optimistic. i am curious to how all this plays out. i would hate to hear it affecting Will permanently.
Frances says
I absolutely agree that adding a third dog in a bid to help the first two is not the way to go, but perhaps when the time comes you could consider an adult small breed female? (Or even board one for a while.) Not too tiny (I doubt my papillon would be very helpful when it comes to telling off an over exuberant BC), but small enough not to trigger Will’s anxieties.
On Juvenile Shyness – both of mine (papillon and toy poodle) have had classic, mild symptoms. Sophy has always been a well adjusted, contented little soul from when I got her at 14 weeks. Poppy was 19 weeks and not very well socialised when I got her – she was particularly nervous of new dogs and new people. She still gets very anxious if restrained by someone she does not know very well. Sophy went through a similar phase of hiding between my feet from people and dogs from about 6 – 8 months, and had a few EEEK moments, too (notably when she first saw a stone gargoyle in someone’s garden – understandable, I think!). Both hit 6 – 7 months, and did the warning barking at EVERYTHING.
With Sophy, now 21 months, it is already a distant memory. She has excellent discrimination between friendly/not friendly people and dogs, and very good social skills, with the cheerful confidence these bring. She will still bark at anything really unusual, but quickly stops once I have checked it out and told her it is safe. The only thing that makes her really anxious now is being left alone in the car, even for just a few minutes.
Poppy is an innately shyer dog and is still learning, but is definitely getting there. I am aware that with Poppy especially it could easily have gone wrong. Pushing her to “face her fears”, or too much overprotection, could have encouraged her into fear aggression. We are not entirely out of the woods yet – I have to be ready to step in to calm things down if she begins to get over excited and yappy – but I do think we are on the right path (thanks to good advice from local trainers and several books, yours included). She is only 14 months – if we can keep up the happy, secure encounters for another 6 months or so I am hoping the pattern will be set. I have known too many fearful, snappy, anxious little dogs – I want mine to have a happier life than that.
It would be very interesting to know what constituted “normal range” Juvenile Shyness, and what indicated a more serious issue. And to know whether it is easier or harder to alter patterns of behaviour learned during this period than those learned earlier or later. I can see the evolutionary advantage – just as babies becoming clingy once they are able to move around independently helps to keep them safe – but there is also a huge advantage in being able to continue to learn and adapt.
I love this blog – Trisha’s honest and reflective stories, fabulous photos, fascinating insights into other people’s relationships with their dogs AND I can whitter on myself about my two! Thanks. Trisha.
Mel says
I have a 18 month old male Manchester terrier who developed this fear aggression and nervousness suddenly at 10 months of age.
We have been working with a trainer for the last 8months and can manage to go for a walk now with not too much barking. I think the people in our neighbourhood must think we are a bit crazy as we either turn around and run away from them when they come towards us or we are too busy ‘talking’ to the dog instead of having a chat with them.
We also have a 4 year old female cairn terrier who is not afraid of anything, ever. But unfortunately her calm behaviour does not seem to have any effect on his nervous behaviour.
I am very interested in this topic and will be watching closely as I am eager for any more information that may help us with managing his behaviour and help him to enjoy going for a walk again.
Good luck with your dogs
cjung says
I’ve had 6 smooth collies in the past 22 years. The girls have tended to be fairly steady and I don’t recall any dramatic juvenile shyness – thinking about it maybe they were more became more reserved around 10-12 months or but they weren’t as dorky about it as the boys.
My two more recent boys did go through more dramatic personality change at about 11 months, more or less. My late great smoothie, Pablo, was a bold confident puppy but went through a people-shy phase starting at about 10 months where he didn’t want to be touched by strangers (He would duck away and skitter behind me). He didn’t seem to be all that fearful though – no shaking or barking. It was more like he was so full of energy and the force of youth that he couldn’t bear the intensity of being petted. He came out of it by gradually and went on to be very calm, sensible adult (a kick-butt therapy dog who handled everything with tremendous dignity).
My current boy, Fawkes recently turned three and went through the same touch-me-not phase as Pablo – he started to shy away from strangers and became reluctant to be handled. I remember in handling class, he would lean away, duck his head and was all goosey about his hind end being examined. By his ears (sideways) and body language (hunkered over), he clearly wasn’t pleased when being handled but I would say his fear level was mild and he never was really panicked about it. Often afterwards, he would do a full body shake and I joked that he was trying to get the “stranger cooties” off. I think he was more “oh yuck” about strangers than “oh shit”.
Along with the touch-me-not issue, Pablo & Fawkes also became more reactive. For example, I remember 13 month old Fawkes was once startled by a wildly flapping plastic grocery bag caught on a bush. He made a huge leap to the side, then growled & barked with hackles puffed up from head to tail. It was a goofy combination of being a major chicken and a major show of bravery. I coaxed him to sniff the bag and when he realized was it was, he immediately stood up all nonchalant (“I knew it wasn’t a monster all along”), and lifted his leg on the bag followed by kicking out with such vigor that he sent clods flying (“That’s what you get if you try to scare a big time stud-muffin like me!”).
Heidi Meinzer says
I do hope Will can work through this! Thank you so much for keeping us posted about Will and Hope.
Herding breeds and fear periods — I can relate to that! My Sophie, a GSD mix, went through wicked shy periods in that same time frame. She’s always been reserved around new people, dogs and objects. But she would go through phases when something as innocuous as a fire hydrant on a fairly new walking route would make her jump out of her skin. When she started showing fear periods, I would treat her constantly for walking anywhere near people and other dogs. Her reactivity still exists somewhat with strangers that walk right up and try to engage me or her, and with unfamiliar dogs, so we’re still working on it.
This March, right before Sophie turned 2, her buddy, 12 1/2 year old Raoul, passed away. He was the greatest, most grounded and well balanced Golden you ever met. She got snarky with him as he got older and sicker with cancer, and I wished he had it in him to correct her a little more. After Raoul passed, Sophie in many ways (some not good) was happy to be the only dog in the house. I really wanted to get her a playmate (and teach her to share me and the house)! My boyfriend and I thought long and hard about what kind of dog to get. We went to the local shelters, looked at some beautiful Aussies, but ultimately decided to do what we knew we should do — get a puppy of a breed with the best chance of having the least amount of confidence/reactivity issues. So we went to a lab breeder who has had great success adopting her pups to Virginia Service Dogs.
Boomer the black lab pup came into our lives this summer. We got him at about 11 or 12 weeks old. He came from a big litter, with a wonderful mom who really took care of her pups. [Unlike Sophie, whose mom wasn’t that great with Sophie and her two littermates — thank goodness for her wonderful foster mom, though!] Boomer’s breeder did a wonderful job socializing and beginning crate training and obedience training with the pups even before we got Boomer.
Sophie is exactly two years older than Boomer. Thank goodness Sophie and Boomer are great buddies. But I’ve noticed one thing in particular. When they are running around playing hard, Boomer gets quite aroused and takes a hold of Sophie’s tail. It looks like he broke the skin at one point, and Soph doesn’t help things by licking the spot. Sophie still will not correct him when he does this, and the spot on her tail is still obviously painful. I have seen her give him corrections in other situations — mainly indoors when play gets too rough, and then usually a quick growl as she puts her mouth over his muzzle. Sophie, like Will, has a huge V on her forehead. I rarely take her to dog parks, mainly because bully dogs hone in on her immediately and freak her out. I’m hoping that Boomer does not start bullying her and pushing her around.
So far, Boomer seems quite the confident and outgoing little guy. But he will turn 5 months old next week, so if he is going to have any fear periods, they are coming upon us. We have been socializing Boomer in the neighborhood and in lots of other settings. When we take him out, even for a walk in the neighborhood, we do not take Sophie with us — for fear he would pick up on her reactivity (or, now that you mention it, because Boomer could hit a fear period and rub back off on Sophie). This has worked out fine, because Sophie really is kind of a home body, and is not crazy with walks and ventures outside. I fully accept that she just will not be the dog who can hang out with me outside of a coffee shop. When Sophie and I do go out, I know I have to be super vigilant and load up with tons of super yummy treats to make her venture as pleasant as can be.
While I would like to take Sophie out in the world more often, the biggest set back I ever had with her was after Raoul died, when I took Sophie out daily on walks and weekly in group training sessions. During one of the training classes, she lunged and growled at one of the trainers. I realized I was expecting too much and backed off. I am back to doing very controlled counter conditioning with Sophie. That, together with working off energy with her new buddy, Boomer, has gotten her to a point that is as comfortable as I’ve ever seen her. Here’s keeping my fingers crossed that we can get through this next potentially challenging phase with Boomer — and that Hope and Will can do the same!
Riikka says
Hopefully things work out in the end. Sometimes living with a juvenile dog and an older and somewhat problematic one feels like too much to handle.
My older is a Lab-GSD-Lappish dog mix. She isn’t the world’s easiest creature, but seems to love our 5
Lynn says
Trisha, I sure hope things work out with Will and Hope! I’m rooting for them to sort things out.
I feel like I’m one of the few people here with a sheepdog that has *not* hit a major juvenile fear period. (To be sure, my pup went through one at 8 or 9 weeks, when overnight cars or trash cans being pushed on wheels became Scary Monsters and someone coming up on him suddenly on a bike wearing a helmet got barked at, but this phase passed pretty quickly). So I sort of feel as if I need to stand up for the breed.
Perhaps some of it is that my Border collie was a “spring/summer puppy” (winter birth date), with lots of socialization starting from the day after we brought him home. I’m lucky to be able to bring him to work with me (at a university) every day, so he’s constantly encountering new experiences, from elevators to Segways, and he regularly meets new dogs, as we go for off-leash walks most days.
Maybe I’m speaking too soon (isn’t there another fear period that sets in around 18 months?), but so far I haven’t seen any signs of “juvenile shyness”. He has an easy, confident temperament, so he’s taken everything in stride (except for that one encounter with a bike, when he launched a full volley of barks – all the rest have been fine). He’s never met a stranger – human or canine.
To be sure, there are exceptions to every rule, but personally I’ve seen a big difference in temperament between “sports bred” Border collies and “working bred” Border collies. My dog, like Hope, is from strong working lines (parents both compete in USBCHA at the “Open” level).
AnneJ says
It’s extremely common in Australian Shepherds- I have to say it’s pretty close to universal in the breed. I haven’t had one that didn’t at some point in that period decide to bark at something or someone that was unusual looking/ unknown.
Chelle says
I too wish you, Will, and Hope all the best is getting this sorted out.
Regarding your fear stages question:
Of my three dogs, one joined the family after he was a year old and never showed any sort of fear stage. Results of a lack of socialization, yes, but he got over every new obstacle so quickly that I’m inclined to think it was a lack of exposure, not a physical/chemical barrier. He’s a terrier mix.
Of the two who joined the family as puppies…
My collie X shepherd mix (a herder to the core) already had a lot of fear issues when rescued at 14 weeks, including rather extreme flight/shutdown responses to audio and visual stimulation. Having worked through much of it, I was of course very upset when all her issues came rushing back at about 10 months old. We started over like she was a puppy again (note: she was my only dog at the time) and worked through them…at about 2 years old the cycle was repeated yet again. Now at three she seems to have stabilized for the most part, though we still have occasional setbacks if something strikes her as being particularly odd.
My retriever pup had an excellent start to life, but she still regressed into a fear stage around 10 months old. Much milder than the herder’s, but still a marked increase in tension around things that seemd “out of place” in her mind. She’s 13 months now and seems to have come out of it already, though. The first time it came up, her age didn’t register immediately and I could help but think “Oh no, what have I done!? Did I miss something in her socialization???”, but the things she was reacting to were things to which she has been exposed previously without concern, so I am sticking to the hormonal/growth stage theory.
Stephanie says
I have to say that I am very glad you are going to continue writing about your dogs. This post reminded me so much of my journey with my own dogs. I have two very insecure males, a 4 yr old Chi/Min Poodle (Logan) and a 2 yr Corgi/Irish Setter/??? (Lance) and a much more secure female, 4 yr old Chi/Toy Poodle (Lacey) and I believe that without her life with them would be even more difficult than it is now. For example, I can walk Lacey with Lance and they do reasonably well seeing people or other dogs but if I walk Lance and Logan together (a VERY rare occurance that has only happened a few times ever), Lance is much more on alert and reactive to things he sees. I believe he is picking up on Logan’s insecurity.
A little background: We have had both Lacey and Logan from puppies. Logan was extremely shy and fearful as a puppy. Not knowing much if anything about dog behavior at the time I didn’t do enough to help him through it. I just hoped it was a stage and he would grow out of it but of course it just got worse. We adopted Lance as a puppy also (about 3+ months old). It took a while for Lacey and Logan to accept Lance into the home. Logan would constantly run accross the room and bite at Lance’s cheek for anything from moving too quickly to picking up a toy. I didn’t know at the time but I am sure now that this lead to some more of the insecurity issues in Lance. Lance never once that I can remember corrected Logan either. This behavior has gotten much better but times of stress or excitment (doorbells, loud noises, etc) still brings it out.
Shortly after bringing Lance home he began to show many of the signs Logan did as a puppy. Now knowing that he needed help and this would not just ‘go away’ we enrolled him in a puppy class at one of the popular stores that offer them. It was then that we found out just how reactive he was toward other dogs. He was about 6 months old at the time.
Luckily after finishing Lance’s first class I found a trainer in the area and got all three of the dogs in different classes. I have been reading a ton on dog behavior (thank you for your wonderful books!!) and in the past year and a half Lance has gone from a dog that reacted the moment he saw another dog, not mattering if it was 500+ ft away to a dog that has a few good doggie friends.
Logan is a much different story. I believe his issues are more genetic than Lance’s. He will be okay walking with a dog but the next minute something will set him off and he can be lunging toward them. Overall, he is doing a 100 times better and is much calmer overall than we started but with him it seems like we are doing much more regressing than with Lance who seemed to luckily have an upward slope. I believe the age at which we started the work has a lot to do with this as Lance was still under a year old and Logan was over 2 when we began.
Sometimes I have wondered if I did the right thing by bringing Lance into our home and keeping him. We too thought about returning him to the shelter at the beginning but decided not to. Maybe it would have been best for him, but he has grown into a very loving and wonderful dog and I cannot imagine my life without him. There are not many days when the two boys actually play with each other but they do have their moments which are heart-warming to see. Both boys will play with Lacey without issues although in different ways because of the size differences. Logan and Lacey do a lot of chasing and wrestle play while Lance and Lacey do a lot of laying down and tooth-fencing. I have learned to accept the Lance and Logan may not be the best of friends but they do seem to really ‘love’ each other. They will lay by each other at night and even do some grooming/washing of each other on occassion. They seem to have bonded in their own speical way.
I do thank you for your wonderful stories of your dogs as they do help those of us also strugging realize that we are not alone. I hope things to work out for Will, Hope and you and that everyone is happy in the end even if that means Hope finds a new family to love and cherish him.
Kris at Brushyrun says
Quote “They both strike me as insecure dogs who are feeding off of each other.”
Having read all of your descriptions of the way the boys are currently behaving, I would have to agree. And my advice in similar situations has always been to take a step back and work with the dogs individually and entirely separately in public… so that you can focus on distracting and desensitizing each individual dog in the manner most effective for him, while rebuilding/reinforcing confident behavior. This way they aren’t feeding off of one another’s fearful behavior, but are instead able to focus on you for guidance in potentially stressful situations. You can also deal with each dog more quickly and effectively, as soon as you see that they are becoming anxious or reactive, if your attention is not split between two dogs. Will and Hope each having different motivators (toys vs food) adds to the difficulty of dealing with both dogs at the same time.
Whenever one of my dogs has regressed in any area of behavior, my first gut reaction is to likewise regress back to repeating those earlier stages of training and conditioning. Treat Will like you did back when he was that fearful younger dog, at least for a time — you certainly wouldn’t have tried to work with him in tandem with another, more assertive pup that was also going through a shyness/fear period. My guess is that you worked with him either solo, or in the company of a very confident, stable, reassuring canine companion. You know what methods were successful back then — I would use that same approach now as a refresher course for Will.
With Hope, it sounds like he has indeed entered the all to familiar juvenile fear period. The challenge is in getting him through it successfully, without allowing him to continue to have a negative impact on Will during the mean time. If Hope can make it out the other side, maturing to become a calm and confident dog, he may actually end up being a positive influence on Will. But only if the two dogs can also resolve their other issues and eventually settle into a mutually comfortable , tension-free social relationship.
All stuff I know that you already know… but posted it any ways. 😉
Pike says
I, too, am glad that you continue sharing about your dogs.
The thought crossed my mind that maybe one of your friends/relatives/ neighbors/co-workers/etc. might have a female Tulip type dog that you could “borrow” for a few weeks? If it doesn’t do any good, well the dog would just go home from a mini vacation and if it does help with the boys you can offer superb training service or… in exchange for peace maker/role model canine support.
Jess H says
Trish,
Not sure you remember this, but Sassy went through something similar and we went through EXTENSIVE training for her to overcome it. I took her EVERY where I went. I had strangers give her treats, dogs approach her and eventually, she did come out of it.
I know you will do the best for both Willie and Hope.
Sassy & Jess
Sherry in MT says
Re what Kat suggested: “Meanwhile I
Autumn says
My 9 month-old BC/Aussie pup is going through a mild-moderate case of juvenile shyness. It isn’t generally towards people unless they are wearing something very uncommon. But she is great around kids and both males and females.
Hers is a case of barking at inanimate objects – lately it’s been a watermelon, blender, balloon, and trailer hitch. It’s definitely a fear-based bark because I notice that her weight is shifted back when barking. We are successfully working through these experiences, but I am really fascinated by her discrimination between what is safe and what isn’t because she is pretty confident facing most things. Why bark at a watermelon, but not a cantaloupe? Why the blender but not the toaster?
Amy W. says
My GSD went through juvenile onset shyness, specific to new people. In fact, he’s always been pretty bold when it comes to investigating new things and places, but has no use for new people. Humm, sounds like a shepherd eh?
Susan says
I’m sorry to read about the regressions you’ve seen in Willie. My Oscar is similar, as I have commented on other occasions, and I know the feeling of having to take these steps back to places you thought you had left forever. I have been concerned with his passing on his insecurities to a sibling.
We rescued my mixed breed Oscar at ~1, and he was very fearful and shy of people, strange shapes, sunglasses, hats, and on and on. He was better (comparatively) with dogs, but in hindsight I know he was not 100% comfortable. Somewhere around the time he became more comfortable with strangers, he flipped-flopped and became all-out fearful of dogs. I would say he was about 1.5 at the time. I do think dogs who don’t have a calm puppyhood are developmentally delayed, so to me he acted more like he was 1 in many ways. Size and breed matter most to him relating to other dogs. He has come a long way, but he will never be completely relaxed. It is always great to read others’ comments with similar experiences. It is hard to have a mixed breed dog in a neighborhood of purebreds…not to mention when your dog is a nervous guy.
Ellen Pepin says
The scene that you have described about how the boys behave in the house is just what is going on between my adopted Collie girl (1 year ago) and my other dog, a Shepherd/Rottweiler/boxer? mix, a male that we adopted 6 years ago. We don’t really know the age of Tess, the Collie. Three different Vets have said about 4-8, and Dakota is about 8. When we got Dakota, we had Nikki, a female Shepherd/terrier mix. Her head and face looked like a Pit Bull. She did not trust anyone besides me or my husband. On walks, she barked and lunged toward any thing that moved. She even nipped a jogger. Ten years and 3 trainers later, I was able to get her to focus, with a treat, on me when moving things went by, but she only trusted a small number of people. Nikki was definitely in charge at home. Dakota would let her get the best space and food. After a year or so, Dakota started to assert himself. He weighed almost twice as much as Nikki. When Nikki died, he was our only dog for a year. I think he liked being the only dog; He was king.
Then we adopted Tess. Like Nikki, Tess was a stray. In public, she is great with other people and most dogs, but she barks and lunges after moving objects like cars, trucks, and bicycles. She once got loose and chased a large lawn service truck. After the driver stopped she kept circling the truck and barking. At home she is protective of space and food. Sometimes, she will growl and show teeth if Dakota just walks past in a narrow space. She used to do that to us also. She seems to have a comfort zone around herself. If dogs or people enter that space, she will growl or show teeth. Lately, she startles and quickly gets up if I go past her. It seems like she is afraid of being stepped on. What I don’t like is that Dakota, who usually loves everybody, is starting to get aggressive with her. They have fought a couple of times, so they are always separated if food is available. At times they will briefly play together, but Dakota plays to roughly for her, and she starts to growl. They mostly tolerate each other. Both of them compete for our attention, so we cannot favor one over the other, not that I would do that.
I hope that we can get them to coexist peacefully, but it is going very slowly.
Lisa G says
As far as your question about juvenille shyness, my Bernese Mountain Dog had a case and is just starting to grow out if it at 14 months. She would walk with me around our yard without a care in the world but if something different was there, she would bark and jump and jerk away from it. For example, my husband did some landscaping in the yard and she was convinced that the orange road-cones that he used were out to get her and her whole family. The same would be true of an odd box in the house or a large rock outside. She spent ten minutes barking at a friend’s garden statue of a frog!
She is getting much better and if she does find something that she is afraid of, I will bend down and talk to it and pet it to let her know that its okay. I did this with our vacuum cleaner, our recycling bin, and our garbage can amongst other things. My neighbors may think I’m a nut but it works. She’s usually stand-offish at first but then she comes to investigate and realizes that if I’m not in a panic there is no reason for her to be.
As a side note, my Golden Retreiver never had this issue. Like you said it may be a breed difference.
Angela says
I’m (hopefully) coming out of this phase with my young BC, though it started at a bit older age. I remember a few months ago when he was 11 months, sitting with him at the end of a large three-day training conference with hundreds of dogs and people, all of which he dealt with happily and confidently, thinking “Wow, he is such a stable nice dog.” Then about a month later, he started to get a little squirrely on occasion for no apparent reason about random things. He happily and politely greets people all the time, then out of nowhere was completely spooked by my stepdad, who he’d been fine with many times before. We’d pass a dozen dogs on walks (and he plays nicely with other dogs), but then he’d pass one and suddenly get barky. No real identifiable pattern or precipitating event. The other interesting thing he experienced was a seeming fear of heights. All of a sudden he didn’t want to cross the pedestrian bridges that we go over several times a week on walks in our riverside park. He refused to do the dogwalk all of a sudden for a few weeks. We were working with the exercise ball, which he has always been enthusiastic and confident with, and one session just decided he needed off NOW! I had to go back and spend a little time retraining all those things, and he recovered pretty quickly, and he is having a lot fewer incidents of getting spooky around people or dogs. I would say it lasted 2-3 months, though I won’t claim it is totally over with, but I think he’s on the right track.
I mentioned this to a friend of mine, who is also a BC person, and she said “Oh yeah, all of mine have gone through that phase before they are two years old – act like they just got pulled out of a shelter yesterday and weren’t socialized a day in their life – he’ll grow out of it.”
I have owned a truly fearful and reactive BC previously, and his behavior was markedly more extreme and persistant than this. This just strikes me like some goofy phase, though I will be happy when it passes!
Cindy says
My 8 mo old intact male GSD is exhibiting some of this behavior- barking at people he knows or at least has met before. At times when people want to pet him, he uses his mouth to push their hand away from his head. He bounds out of the front door, fur and tail up, ready to tackle whatever threat might be there. He loves the vet but urinated the last time we were there when all she did was touch him. He’s very well socialized, has his CGC already and always displayed a great deal of confidence, now just a little tentativeness. We start back to obedience class in 2 weeks, it will be interesting to see how he reacts the first night.
Kat says
Reading all these descriptions of the shy stage I have a question. Human babies grow in alternating stages, body growth for six months or so and then brain growth for six months or so. In some youngsters it’s so extreme that brain skills they’ve mastered actually disappear. From personal experience I can tell you that it can be pretty darn unnerving when your chatty 12 month old suddenly stops talking and apparently can’t say a word. In other youngsters it’s nearly unnoticeable. In periods of body growth my daughter never lost any of her skills she just didn’t master new ones so it was a lot less dramatic than with her brother. Is it possible that what happens with puppies is similar? Could the lack of discrimination between what’s a real threat and what’s just a novelty and the sudden shyness even around familiar people and dogs be due to the fact that more growth energy is going to the body and not to the brain? It’s fascinating to wonder how much there is parallel between human and canine development.
JJ says
Looking at that sweet, melt-your-heart photo, you would never know there were any problems at all. Those boys look like the best of buds.
It sure is hard to reconcile the texts with the pictures. As you said, it is good that you have written some cautionary posts because otherwise, the tension and issues between Will and Hope would not have been apparent.
I can only imagine how awful it must be to see Will do even the slightest regressing. I’m hoping that this is just a minor bump in a future of nothing but smooth road.
Karissa says
I got my female BC from rescue when she was about 4 months old. She, her two siblings and their mother were dumped at a shelter and were no doubt not socialized at all by their previous owner.
When I got her, my girl was a social butterfly and was happy to see any other living being. She comes to work with me daily and travels to all of my dog shows with the other dogs. There was no event that triggered anything, but it seemed like out of the blue she suddenly was terrified of new people — This would have been around the 5-month period. She was still happy to meet any and all new dogs.
She hit a year old earlier this month and she’s been all over the place this year. She’s now doing much better with her human interaction, but now she’s decided that dogs are scary. She has become horribly noise-phobic and is now afraid of thunderstorms — likely thanks to my oldest dog and his negative reaction to thunder. She very much reads off him because if she’s alone or just with my other dog, she’s not so quick to act frightened.
I have been told by several people that this is a stage and that she’ll grow out of it. Many people have said, “Oh, my female BC was exactly like that until she hit about two years old or so, now she loves everyone.”
I have no issues managing fear or other quirks — I’d have to say that my main problem is that I never know what she’ll decide to be afraid of from one day to the next. 🙂
Cynthia says
After we lost our fear-aggressive GSD last summer, whom we rescued at age 1.5, we vowed to get a puppy so that we could “do it right.” We also vowed no more GSDs…So of course we came home with a super-sized 25 pound, 10 week old GSD mix 🙂 His mix is most likely Golden. Around 4 months he began barking at anything that wasn’t there the day before. A bike secured to a street sign. A man at the bus stop. A motorcycle parked on the street. He once spent three nights barking from the window at the newly “discovered” fire hydrant across the street. Which of course never moved. Never did a thing. Altho we did have friends suggest that perhaps the hydrant was a sleeper alien robot waiting to attack and the dog was just letting us know…I rather liked that idea.
Now he’s almost 15 months, and will sometimes bark and lunge at things liked tipped over garbage cans, a ladder up against a building. It takes him nearly five minutes to come back to earth after an episode, because from that point he is on guard against any possible foe. And of course the barking has carried over to any and all dogs. While he loves other dogs more than anything and has a ball at daycare one half day per week, he doesn’t know how to contain himself around them on leash and so reverts to barking or laying low with his belly to the ground for a minute before barking. I always thought that belly drop was a way of being sneaky, waiting to pounce, but it could very well be that he’s making himself small. All 77 pounds of himself.
He finally outgrew the pee dribbling and the humping when overly aroused, so while we work on that barking and fear every day, we do have hope that it’s something he will grow out of as well.
Jennifer says
Well it looks like I’m in good company here, I’ve been noticing the same thing with my 17-month-old Australian Shepherd. She isn’t spooky about everything, but does like to do the charge/bark when something “new” startles her, but leaning back at the same time. Talk about ambivilent! I know I missed getting her super comfortable around really young kids during her first few months (sharky teeth and no wee kids that we knew), so she still reacts to kids under about 10… or with a ponytail in a different spot, etc. Doing CCC has been helping (yummy treats are key). She’s still bold & confident most of the time, but odd sounds like velcro or the swiffer get a spooky reaction from her (odd having a velcro dog afraid of velcro, hah).
Oh dear, I can see why you’re concerned about the boys making each other worse, especially after putting some much time into Willie to keep him happy and non-reactive. I wonder if dogs feed off of fear in an almost neurotic way that two insecure people can. It sounds like a delicate balance that you’re trying to strike, hopefully this to passes soon for you.
Carrie says
I have a fear aggressive female border collie. Almost every single foster bc that we bring into the house winds up nippin/chasing her in much the way you described the interaction between Hope and Willie. There is just something about her that sparks their prey drive/need to control. We don’t allow the behavior to continue, but I would say 90% of our foster dogs, puppies and adults, have tried this behavior.
My girl also feeds off the mind set of the other dogs around her. She seems at ease to defer to my calm and in control male. If he is fine, she knows things are fine. If he is alarmed then she gets very concerned.
Maybe I am reading too much into the picture you posted, but is Willie defering to Hope like my girl defers to my male? The way Willie is leaning into Hope reminds me of the way she leans into my male and my husband and I, the ones she trusts to make the decisions for her.
Bandb says
My smaller second dog -lurcher beth- will often do this leaping and nibbling while grring at bigger Barney’s shoulder as they move through space. Since Barney has always been in charge of doorways-at-night , between the 2 of them, it has never bothered me , as it mostly seems more like a “where are we going, me and you ” excitement than any attempt to control space? He mostly just looks amused and on the odd occasion when he feels it’s tiresome he whirls his head round and she lets go. Come to think of it she also nibbles his legs to speed him up when we are about to go for a walk and again he seems to find it hilarious as she is half his size but makes impressive bossy sounding noises.
She was my second attempt to find him a companion. She came aged 2, when Barney was 3 and from the first meeting they were both supremely polite and circumspect with one another. On the first walk and meeting before we brought her home they interacted only a little, although she seemed impressed with his combined paddling and head-butting reeds skills and watched politely. The first day home they spent the evening doing what I can only describe as dancing, there was some wrestling and neck chewing too but a lot of time was spent with one lying down while the other gyrated around, and then Barney (a resource guarder) dug into the fire basket and offered her some pine cones to chew. She clearly found them dull but politely nibbled a few, he continued bringing her more and more looking pleased and proud.
They don’t sleep together, except in the car, and they play less frequently now, 6 years down the line, their interests and personalities are quite different but they have never ever fought and if one is accidentally hurt in play the offender is terribly concerned and they break apart for a sniff and reconciliation.
I think they are happy together.
Maggi And Cracker says
Hi Trisha,
Firstly, have you considered that it is possible that Willie’s increase in anxiety may be based in something physical (adrenal gland or thyroid issues?) that just seems to be co incidental with Hope’s arrival in the home? One of my client’s dogs (now gone to the bridge) had a ‘relapse’ in behaviour around the time his sister passed and a new sister pup arrived. We initially thought it all stress related but it turned out his thyroid was out of whack, dealt with the physical issue and he was back on track. Just something to keep in mind that sometimes things look like one thing, but can be exacerbated by something different.
Next question, is Hope WITH you and Willie when he’s exhibiting the behaviours out in the people world? Could it just be stress overload? Protectiveness? Worry about you being worried about the two of them?
Regarding fear periods, Cracker is a rescue who had her own share of relatively mild fear issues, but definitely went through an escalation period at around 6-7 months. She is a foxhound/lab mix (best guess anyway). I think many people think their pups will “grow out of it” and don’t actively countercondition to get through these fear stages.
I agree with the previous poster that mentioned brain development/body development possibly affecting changes in personality. I think as well that if we look at development stages (mental/neurological) in young animals of all sorts that the fear stage makes some sense. This is me just postulating, I am no expert…so humour me here…
As infants they rely on their elders for everything and look for reassurance and safety.
As they age, they get somewhat more independent and brave, investigating the world but they still have their elder’s backup in case of trouble. They continue to feel safe (in an ideal situation) if occasionally overwhelmed.
Then they get to the age where their puppy license is revoked. Pressure to perform or behave appropriately is applied, often by the same entities that previously backed them up at all times. This is a time of great insecurity and stress and social maturity starts to happen (neuro and hormonal). Things are totally in flux physically and mentally. It’s emotional overload.
Just my thoughts.
Melissa Hadfield says
My dog, now closing in on two years, developed shyness/fear and now, unwelcomingly, some fear aggression. She is (per DNA tests) 30-70% golden retriever, up to 20% american staffordshire and up to 10% lab (you’d never guess, though, she’s red brindle and has an amazing musculature!).
This is the first dog I’ve ever had (spare for the dog we had growing up, but i was too young to be involved in training) and I confess we didn’t follow recommendations fully with regard to socialization. We socialized, but we definitely could have (and should have) done more. I have been attributing her issues to a lack of early socialization (her mom was stray and gave birth; puppies weren’t taken in until 2 months old) as well as a couple of bad experiences with men. But these are just my ways of trying to explain things, and feel better about them, but bottom line is, we have issues to deal with.
I do wonder, having read this, whether it is a phase that we have to continue to navigate and help her through. People keep telling me it will be okay, and that dogs do often calm down, so I hope that is true.
Thanks for what you wrote, both here and in your books. I love reading your work!
Kirby @ Dog.Nerd.101 says
Hey Tricia,
First, want to congratulate you another great presentation. A good friend of mine and CPDT Marisa Scully (www.phillydogtraining.com) attended the Best Friends Forever Conference and she said that your remarks brought her to tears. She texted me right after hearing you and wrote this “The clarity with which Patricia speaks is breathtaking.” She also spoke to Pia on my behalf about my Hungarian Mudi puppy who has shown a number of fear-based behaviors since he came to me from Hungary, almost entirely around the greeting rituals when meeting new people. The comment you made above about Hope with strange things now, and Willie before (with a strange silhouette he
Sherry says
Bandb–that sounds just like the relationship between our 2.5 year old male and 1 year old female!
Trisha–our male had some fear issues, and I think the addition of a smaller, younger female, actually worsened his leash reactivity. I think it’s because while she’s not aggressive, she does get excited seeing other dogs on leash. (This is even before she started jumping and correcting him every time his hackles were up when he saw a dog.) I too would love to see any research on shyness according to breed! Our somewhat fearful male is part herder and he is extremely wary of other dogs. Hackles raised, stiff, eyes locked. The other two dogs (poodle mixes with shih tzu and cocker spaniel) play easily and freely with other dogs.
Melissa says
Both my boys have had something like this Juvenile Onset Shyness. Kivi the Lapphund at probably around 10 months developed a sudden fear of anything large, round and usually green. He was also terrified of anything large that was lifted up off the ground. Things that had been lying around in the house unnoticed suddenly became horrifying and he would back off barking his “OMG, I’m scared of that!” bark until someone came along and coaxed him over to it with lots of treats. It faded over time, but it was a good 8 months before it was gone completely.
Erik the Vallhund was insane from about 6-10 months old. He alerted at EVERYTHING and would get very aroused and upset whenever he was in a new place. We took him to many new places where we could stay with him until he was comfortable. I think that it helped him a lot. We took him on holidays, took him for an overnight stay at various relative’s houses and so on. If we were there with him we could reassure him if it got too much and help him relax. He needs help to relax. Each time we did this with him he dealt with the next new place better. He is now about 14 months old and still tends to be hypervigilant in new places or even at home when he is aroused, but he has improved a lot and continues to improve.
I sometimes wonder if the difference between Kivi and Erik has something to do with their personalities and coping styles. Kivi is a very laid back dog and he doesn’t notice much. It seriously took him two months of sitting next to me while I rewarded Erik for not barking at everything to realise that Erik was getting treats. Kivi lets stuff happen around him and just kinda reacts when he has to. I think he has a reactive coping style. Erik, on the other hand, must always do something whenever he is feeling vaguely anxious or whatever. He pokes things or barks or he redirects on Kivi. I think that when he can’t do something about his anxious state it makes him much more anxious. If he can do something – anything, he copes better. So we tell him what to do and reward him and he’s good with that, mostly.
So I wonder if Hope is a bit of a proactive dude? Proactive individuals are usually bold and sometimes aggressive and/or socially dominant. Koolhaas et al. (1999) wrote a nice review of coping styles in animals that was published in Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews. I find it fascinating.
Donna Hill says
Great topic! We recently adopted a second dog, partly in an effort to stabilize Jessie’s (3.5 yo GSD/BCxmin pin) stress levels in scarey environments and with rude dogs and partyl to give me a dog that is confident enough to trial with. When out on walks with a buddy, she appears to let the other dogs worrying and is more relaxed. The same at home when dog buddies visited.
Our new dog Lucy (a BC/Dal mix 21 mo) has blended very easily into our family as she is an adaptable dog with a solid temperament. (It doesn’t hurt that she is very similar in temperament and looks to my previous heart dog). She is definitely the stabilizing influence on Jessie, who is calmer and less worried about the world in the 12 days we’ve had Lucy. Jessie’s been much more accepting of other dogs we meet on our walks as well.
Jessie is a resource guarder but is moderating her behavior as she learns to trust Lucy, who backs off when confronted. The higher value objects and locations will obviously elicit more of reaction but so far they share sticks, nylabones, rope toys and stuffed toys. They are learning to train side by side and not try to steal each others earned rewards. This is very hard for Lucy as she is VERY food motivated but she respects Jessie’s (now more) subtle warnings.
Both dogs are great at reading & responding to other dogs calming signals so that helps immensely. Despite both being spayed females of similar age, it looks like this pairing will work out for the better of both dogs.
Our previous pairing was similar (only a year apart in age) with a confident male DalX and a slightly timid female GR. The GR followed the DalX everywhere (would even go swimming out after him) and was quite confident when he was around. If he wasn’t however, she’d stick pretty close to us and focus on her people.
Tonight I was taking too long in getting Jessie’s food ready (had actually already used part of it to reward some rally o practice) and Jessie gave out this loud woof! It was a sound that usually indicates a really scarey dog is passing the house or coming out of the park. Instead she was indicating her frustration at how long I was taking to get her (highly desirable) supper down to her. This is unusal behavior for her as she has learned do be patient, but she has done a similar demand behavior maybe twice in the time we’ve had her (almost 3 yrs). Perhaps this is a side effect of her perception of having to compete with the new dog for food.
We knew Jessie would have to be the one to pick out the new dog. We actually had planned to adopt a puppy, perferably a male. but Lucy came along and so far seems to be the right match!
Diana says
My Doberman went through a very brief fear period when he was about 8 or 9 months old. Actually I can only recall one incident but it was really startling. He growled at a man he knew well and liked because the man was carrying something and it was nearly dark. I think it was the unfamiliar silhouette.
My Keeshound/Sheltie mix did not go through a juvenile fear period. We adopted her at around 6 months and she never showed any sign of fear. She was actually quite bold during that time (and still is). My GSD mix, on the other hand, is still fearful of strange noises, strange people, strange dogs and strange sights (including re-arranging the furniture). Then again he was a feral dog before we got him so I guess this is no surprise. We’re still working on it.
kat says
wow, and i thought I was in the minority with a fearful dog.
My whippet has fear issues, they started developing when he was 6 months old which my current behaviorist says is a typical time to see this sort of thing appear. He is currently one and I’ve been told he is in his ‘social maturity’ stage, the time when they start to work out their place in the world.
He barks at dogs when on the leash and sometimes when off, he can take an instant dislike to random new people and bark at them, it’s as if he has a suspicious nature. He freaks out if he even see’s a dog on the tv. He is still nervy but thankfully he doesn’t jump out of his skin at every tiny movement and noise. Not sure whether that’s the work I’ve put in or just him maturing.
we’re doing ccc and desensitization but I do wish someone could look into the future for me and tell me he will definitely grow out of it. That would at least keep me going and able to get through each day without the feeling of dread that it will be like this for the next 15 years.
I used to have a view of dogs that they were all essentially friendly happy go lucky characters and unless you were doing something very wrong you wouldn’t have any issues – How much I have learnt since then!
Do you think that Hope will eventually learn to listen to calming signals? It sounds as if Willie prefers using these more subtle signs than threat signals (tongue flicking etc.) – preferable in my opinion. He is still very young and without anthropomorphizing too much he knows he can push Willie a bit more as he’s a ‘safe’ figure in his pack, almost like when your a kid and your horrid to your parents because you know they’ll always be there – do dogs think that deeply? Not sure about getting a 3rd dog, it would be all to easy for that dog to be the wrong one for this particular mix and you’ll end up with more problems.
I have heard that thing about collies maturing and losing most of their insecurities at two years as well – I just hope that’s the same for whippets!
Alexandra says
Last night Copper, jealous of the blissful belly rub Izzy was getting, walked over and dropped a deer antler on her head. I have no idea how she puts up with him sometimes. For that stunt I ignored Copper since it was really my attention he wanted, then sent him out of the room when he tried to bully Izzy to get his deer antler back. They are BFFs, but life isn’t perfect. Copper is the only puppy I’ve raised, but I do realize that I have been very lucky with him. All of his phases have been very mild. He was never particularly shy of anything, and when he was shy he quickly recovered and went to investigate. He had a very mild shyness of adolescent boys when he was around 18 months old, but I attribute that to an area I just missed in his early socialization. He is long over it. Around 10 weeks he was a little skittish of straying too far from the house in the dark (I had to take him out every early before work) but again, he quickly grew out of it. He’s a typical happy go lucky Labrador! Izzy, I suspect a GSP/Lab mix, came to me at 6 months old already such a mess that I’ve never been able to separate out nature vs poor early nurture with her fears. Speaking of which, since you blogged a few months back about the degree of intense sniffing being correlated to dog-reactivity, I have been watching closely and observed that left to her own devices she will sniff areas where other dogs have been very, very intensely. Even after much training and my not allowing her to engage in this behavior very often, she will still default to it. I had casually assumed it was a hunting behavior, but it is different when she is sniffing bunny tracks. Her body language is very different when investigating dog scent, and it is MUCH harder to get her to leave off.
Lynn U. says
My Belgian Tervuren is a highly confident, outgoing dog (some combination of genetics and a whole lot of puppy socialization), but his breeders warned me that he would probably go through a “fear period” during his puppyhood. Apparently this is very typical for the breed, so consistent with your theory about herding dogs being particularly prone. For Taz it just meant that we had a few amusing incidents of “OMG! The hose cart! Alert! Alert!” and fearsome barking at an umbrella left on the front porch glider where it was visible in the house. I just laughed and gave him the opportunity to check out the offending items, and the period soon passed.
I suspect that the more alert and reactive the dog, the stronger the juvenile fear period. My Berner, who doesn’t share the Terv’s need to supervise the world, never had a fear period. For her, the world has always been divided into categories of “will pet me, ” “edible” and “not very interesting.”
JJ says
This is going to be slightly off topic. It is on topic in that people have been talking about their dog’s fears. Here are some blurbs from a very interesting article that I just read from Nature Magazine. I include the link below if you want to read the whole article.
Published online 25 August 2010 | Nature 466, 1036-1038
Genetics: Pet project
“Stymied in the search for genes underlying human neuropsychiatric diseases, some researchers are looking to dogs instead. David Cyranoski meets the geneticist’s new best friend.”
…
“As a postdoctoral researcher at the University of California, San Francisco, Chang helped to collect hundreds of border-collie DNA samples, including Solo’s, as part of a project studying the genes for noise phobia. She estimates that at least 50% of collies suffer from it, with 10% severely affected, sometimes injuring themselves or others in response to loud noises. Steven Hamilton, a psychiatrist at the University of California, San Francisco, who runs the project, says that he sees parallels between the dogs’ panic and human anxiety. And the same drugs work in about the same proportion of cases for man and beast. “It is easy to see similarities,” he says. A growing number of projects like Hamilton’s are underway to both help suffering dogs and untangle the roots of human neuropsychiatric disease.”
…
“Border collies were bred to herd grazing animals and to hear the calls of their masters from great distances. This, some have reasoned, might have produced hearing so sensitive that loud noises overwhelm some of the animals
Kat says
I’m totally fascinated by the comments here and it has raised another thought. Perhaps it is not so much breed as size that determines the degree of fear/shyness. I remember reading in Temple Gradin’s Animals in Translation about the differences in curiosity levels between larger and smaller horses. Arabians being much more likely to immediately check out a waving flag than a Clydesdale and a St. Bernard being less likely to react to an addition/change to his environment than a BC. Makes sense really, there are a lot more things that could be dangerous to a smaller creature than to a larger one. If there’s a higher chance that you can be hurt by something new you’d want to check it out as quickly as possible. If you’re unlikely to be hurt by something new you probably ignore it until it does something actively threatening.
My sense in reading the comments is that the BCs, Whippets, Corgis, etc., are more likely to experience an intense fear/shyness phase than the Labs, Berners, etc. Not that size is a guarantee but it looks like it would have some predictive value.
No doubt, there are a host of things that enter into the whole world of developmental stages but the more I think about it the more sense the size idea makes. Ranger is 90lbs and the only things I’ve seen him hesitate over (very few) are as big as he is or larger. Well those and a recently discovered antipathy for small breed puppies but he may be picking that up from me. I’ve run into too many people with small breed puppies that think it is cute when their “little darling” nips; as a result I don’t trust the little ones. I know a few responsible people with small breeds but sadly meet a lot more of the irresponsible kind.
Susan says
What can you do – in this situation – with respect to Hopes behaviour towards Will, and the latters ‘inability’ (?) to assert himself?
Thinking about the dogs that have lived with me and do so now, my first reaction would be to try to supervise the interactions; to use obedience games and manage it by having the focus on me, not each other. Example – my Shepherd gets excited and grabs the Beardies long hair when they are in the larger backyard (as opposed to being in the house or in the smaller yard) . So I take the ‘ offender ‘ and put him in a down (for example) to keep him from harassing the other dog. And then essentially practice some self control.
Would I be totally off with this approach? I think I am missing something with respect to the way you are looking at this situation – perhaps it has to do with the way in which they need to live together? (As pets mine can be separated, unless supervised.)
juvenile fear period
Very common in young shepherds – around a year, suddenly barking at things that have been there all along.
Same with the Beardies – 9 to 10 month…
I would love to read more on resource guarding. 🙂
Nancy P says
I have had 5 Border Colllies & 2 Belgian Malinois over the years so I understand the issues you have with Will & Hope. I agree it seems more common in herding and guarding breeds. I heard an interesting explanation for fearfulness in some guarding breeds (it was in a Shiloh description on the Internet). It explained (as I recall) that many dogs have some level of fear but it becomes elevated in the non-confident guard breed as they have a genetic predisposition to notice everything in thier environment and then make an assesment regarding whether or not they should consider it a threat. If the dog lacks the experience or confidence to understand that something is or is not a threat, it can be expressed as excessive fear. A breed that is not predisposed to notice these things will appear less fearful. So in other words, it isn’t a simple trait but rather one that is compounded by the dogs genetic predisposition to assess the environment. This explains the guarding breed…but what about the Border Collie? Perhaps it is a trait common to dogs with extremely high prey drive (which would be true of most working lines of Belgian Malinois and GSD and of course the Border Collie). Would this be a more frequent trait in the coursing breeds as well…certainly a breed with high prey drive? The high prey drive causes the dogs to recognize things in their environment in a much stronger way than a breed with lower prey drive…thus triggering more fear reactions as when you notice something you must asess whether it is a threat or not. There! That is my armchair sociology for the day.
Patricia, your blog is the highlight of my weekly reading time. Your understanding and love of canine behavior is a wonderful gift and I thank you for sharing with all of us.
Amy says
Trisha, I’m sorry that you’re going through such an emotional rollercoaster with the Will and Hope chronicles. It must be heartwrenching to watch some of Will’s fear based behaviors return. I admire how much you share with us. This can’t be easy.
I tend to agree with Kat that perhaps Will may not be the confident role model for Hope. In the picture you’ve posted, it seems that Hope is the bolder one as he leans forward to observe in interest. Will seems to be observing, but is slightly behind Hope.
I have a nearly 5 year old female Aussie and an 8 month old female Aussie. As a puppy, our older puppy was so active and neurotic that I regularly took her to dog training classes and read as many books as possible, including yours. She eventually calmed down when she was nearly 4 years old. We picked our 8 month old puppy on the basis of her recall and her cuddliness. She is definitely calmer, but has a bolder personality. I have only taken her to 1 obedience class. Despite this, she’s got great manners (except for the occasional counter surfing attempts and french-kissing attempts). I truly believe that our older Aussie has done more to shape our puppy’s behavior through modeling, prosocial dog play, and subtle mild corrections. People usually seem surprised when they hear me say, “It is soooo much easier this time around!”
With regards to fear periods, when my older puppy first went through the stage, I used classical conditioning. Anytime something startled her or frightened her, I would tell her, “That’s OK…you’re OK” in a soothing voice. I would then give her a treat. I also did this the one time after 2 off-leash dogs attacked her on leash.
She has now developed such a strong Pavlovian response that anytime a dog barks at her, a semi-truck rolls by, or a bicyclist surprises her, she immediate looks at me with alot of interest and is salivating. She has never shown any fear aggressive behavior. She has some possessiveness about her tennis balls or stick at the beach, but no fear aggression. Our puppy has been quick to develop this Pavlovian behavior, too. I now have 2 sharp eyes focused on me, waiting for a treat, whenever something surprises them!
Angel says
Bear went through two fear periods, when he was about 4 months and another when he was about 10 months old. I don’t recall him reacting differently to people or dogs, his reactions were reserved for objects. Like the scary garbage can at the end of the neighbor’s drive or the box in the kitchen that wasn’t there before that is most assuredly hiding a monster. I can’t really help with the breed tendencies question, as we are just guessing with Bear that he is some type of a northern breed mix. We go with Husky and Lab mix, because I’ve always loved Huskies and my husband likes Labs, and Bear does look a little like both. And my husband gets annoyed when I say “we think” Bear is this, laughs!
Future topic suggestion: How do your pets travel in the car? In the cargo area? In the back seat? Front seat? Wearing a car harness? Loose? Do you use a barrier of some sort? If you use a car harness, how did you get your dog accustomed to wearing it?
Can you tell what I’m working on now? Laughs!! Thanks!
em says
Kat,
I can see your logic in thinking that shyness (or lack of it) might be linked to size, and I agree that there is often a correlation, but I don’t think that it is a causal relationship. Speaking as a person whose great dane went through a brief but fairly intense fear phase, I can say that size is definitely not everything. Many people have noted that their German Shepherds and Malinois experienced juvenile onset shyness as well-I know that most Great Danes every GSD I’ve ever known went through a period of hyper-reactivity as they matured. These are big dogs. I do think that there is a genetic link related to size, but I’m afraid I have a much more depressing take on it. Big fearful and reactive dogs are much less likely to survive long enough to contribute to the gene pool than small ones. Dogs too big to be physically controlled are often deemed just too dangerous to work with, even by professional trainers. It makes me sad, but I understand it, too. As a result, it makes sense that big dog breeders work hard to eliminate the tendency, but in guarding breeds, I think that genes for shyness may be linked with genes that create the traits that make these dogs good at their jobs and thus much more difficult to eliminate.
For whatever it’s worth, I agree with many of the previous posters…it seems to me that a certain degree of juvenile onset shyness is a normal developmental stage, but extreme and severe examples are probably a side effect, or an excessive degree of a desirable trait. Guard dogs need to notice threats and respond to them. Herders need to be able to divide their focus between the handler and the stock and react rapidly to both. It makes sense that both of these types would be more sensitive to postures and facial expressions, to unexpected sounds, shapes, or motions because they have been selectively bred to notice and react to these things.
Debby says
I do hope I won’t offend you Trish, but perhaps you should seek an objective second opinion. With that said, I can’t think of anyone better than you I would rather have evaluate a dog related situation, but I am sure you know someone. I get the feeling that you are a little stressed right now and perhaps another knowledgeble person can help you sort through some issues that you may have overlooked. It may not change the outcome at all, but you may feel better about your decision. I think that it must be very difficult to be in your position ( I am getting a visual of a trauma surgeon laying on the operating table running the procedure ), and my point is that great knowlegde and experience sometimes work against you in emotional situations. I, like most others, do enjoy hearing about your dogs and I do hope you continue to talk about them.
Anyway, I do wish you the best of luck and do hope that everything works out with the boys. I know you will do what is best for everyone.
Mary says
Ah, at times like this, what we wouldn’t give to have a nice, easy-going Labrador Retriever. I know, I know, not all Labs are easygoing…but most of the ones I see at work are from show lines,which are bred for genial temperaments. Hence, they may not have much drive, but generally love people and other dogs, and are non-reactive.
We adopted my collie at 8 months of age. He was fearful of some sounds, strange objects, and children, so he could have been in the juvenile fear stage. Not knowing his background, it could have also been lack of socialization. I would say it was mild and lasted until he was over 1&1/2 years old.
We got our BC as a puppy, and I don’t remember specifically a juvenile fear stage. He pretty much always liked people (as did his mother) and tolerates, but does not particularly like strange dogs (his mother is dog-aggressive). He may have gone through that fear period, but I would say (fondly) that part of him is autistic, since he’s always had some issues off and on with being afraid that the floor is slippery (when the floor was fine a couple days ago or months ago). I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that herding dogs have a more marked juvenile fear period, since herding is derived from a wolf behavior and a juvenile fear period in wolves would serve a purpose.
Best wishes with Willie and Hope….it’s tough to have to go though all that.
trisha says
To Debby: No offense at all, but be assured I have spoken at length to numerous colleagues. I did smile (appreciatively) when I read “second opinion.” How about third, fourth and fifth? I am very lucky to count some extremely knowledgeable people as friends, and wouldn’t hesitate (and haven’t hesitated) for a moment to get opinions from experts who aren’t living in the middle of the forest.
And re size as factor in shyness: Interesting question, but I must admit I haven’t seen a correlation between small size and shyness. Some of the boldest dogs I know are small ones, some of the most nervous ones are medium to large. We do know quite a bit about the genetics of shyness, and a predisposition to be afraid of novel things is strongly mediated by genetics, which then interacts with environment to create a shy or not shy dog (and everything in between).
One more quick note: Researchers here at the UW Vet School have found a surprisingly high level of nearsightedness in many of the dogs they’ve studied. If I remember correctly (I can look this up, just need some time to dig it out), the breed most commonly affected is GSDs… interesting hey? I often have wondered about the eyesight of the dogs who alarm over ‘strange objects’ and it looks like the UW research supports that it might (might!) be a contributing factor.
Alexandra says
Oooh, that is really interesting! I have often suspected that Izzy is slightly nearsighted and that it contributed to her reactivity toward people and dogs; it is nice to hear that it might not be my imagination. She’s even barked at my husband and other known friends a time or two until she was able to give them a good sniff. Is there a link to any of the studies online? I would be curious to learn more about what is known.
Frank says
What is important, it seems to me, is that the ‘owner’ acts in the best interest of the dogs, and not allow personal emotions or ego or even face saving be the deciding factor. In the end, if both dogs end up safe, healthy and happy, then the right decision has been made. And if that means living apart, then that is the right thing to do. It sounds as if Willie is being put at great risk of a serious regression. That is not Hope’s fault or yours from how you describe Willie. Maybe you can right that over time because you have the knowledge and skills to do that…but maybe not. If Hope can be safe, healthy and happy in another setting you should not be putting Willie at risk. That is not fair to Willie. While the comments here are all well intended you should not let them influence you into putting Willie at risk. Sometimes the greatest show of love is the willingness to let go!
Frances says
Very interesting idea about short sightedness and spookiness. I am extremely short sighted without my lenses, and have often “seen” strange and wonderful things – much like James Thurber and the unicorn.
The things that can still alarm Sophy are the really weird ones – two headed humans (someone carrying a child in a backpack or on their shoulders) will do it nearly every time. Now who would have thought to socialise for that?! For another dog it was cows in the trees (there was a hill behind the trees, but it did look as if they were walking along the branches), and people without legs (a path beyond a bank in this case). I think seeing strange things on occasion myself perhaps makes it easier to spot what is outside the pattern – we humans tend to learn patterns and supply the missing bits (or notoriously simply don’t see anything that falls outside the range).
Nicola says
Oh Trisha, what a roller coaster! Good news about Willie standing up for himself. I added a 6 month old pup to my pack of 2 girls. One of my girls, Buffy the kelpie never corrected the pup, even if he hurt her (she has severe arthritis), the other Poppy gave him bites on the nose when he went too far (she is far to small to give a traditional muzzle bite) – now 5 years later he and Poppy play quite happily but Buffy & Tam (the boy) never play.
BTW you’ve described very well what is happening – can we expect a blog on what you are doing about it?
Thanks
Nicola
Lee Charles Kelley says
In my view, most
Dena (Izzee's Mom) says
Trisha, I just want to add my thanks for your willingness to continue sharing the Hope Saga with us.
LynnSusan says
Well, Will has had a lot to contend with in the past year—the loss of Lassie, Jim’s surgery, your injury, and an impertinent pup,just to name a few. He is a sensitive boy.
Gracie came to me at 10 months old—yet, similar to the situation someone mentioned early in the comments, she spent 7 of her 10 months crated in a kennel, having her physical needs attended to, but neglected socially and emotionally. She had a bad case of “puppy brain”, so her fearfulness (King Shepherd—hmmmm) didn’t manifest until she was much older. She loves people and dogs as a general rule,but she freaked out on me last year(just over 2 yrs old) when I took her to St Hubert’s for advanced training. She hyperventilated, blew her coat, had “behavior amnesia” (the instructor asked me if she even knew “SIT”)and wanted out of the ring. I thought it was the presence of all the other dogs that triggered that response. But when we went back for private sessions, she paced and panted and shied at the behaviorist. She was not having fun, so I didn’t force her to go back—I’m a pushover like that.
But this was also right after I had pneumonia and was on bedrest for a month. She was not getting her accustomed exercise or attention while I was sick, so I thought this diversion would be good for both of us. WRONG.
Gracie is very soft and sensitive, and I can see her anxiety begin to build when there is the least change in her environment or routine. She reverted to gnawing woodwork during that time, and who needs a shredder? I couldn’t leave mail or papers lying around without cleaning up the inevitable confetti. These were behaviors that I thought we had worked through.
Once things returned to normal, so did Gracie. She is the best dog I could possibly have. But I am also careful not to upset her applecart, if I can avoid it. I was seriously considering bringing in a puppy. I haven’t had the pleasure (and pain!) of raising a baby puppy for more than 30 years. But I think Gracie is happy with just me (and to some extent the cats, who were here before she was) and after giving it a lot of thought, I am happy with the balance of things. We have been through so much together to get her to the point of being happy and socialized. That maybe the stress , and the upheaval of a puppy is not a good idea.
Perhaps Will, sweet gentle soul that he is , is reacting to all the changes and feeling unsteady—isn’t this why smokers relapse and dieters binge? Maybe this is his tipping point. Certainly you know better than I ,or any of the contributors here, but sometimes tough decisions need to be made , For the Love of a Dog.
Mardi says
This is a very, very interesting topic.
I have certainly seen the adolescent shy/fear stage in a couple of my dogs, including my current ACD mix youngster. My current pup started later also, and like someone above commented, I wondered if it was delayed development because she was in a tumultuous life until she was 8 months old, then took many more months before coming out of the “shut down.” She started spooking at everything novel at between 12-18 months, and at 3.5, she is mostly past it, though certain triggers will still elicit a growl or bark. At first, she ran or hid from most scary things, but as she matured and grew more confident, the barking became her preferred expression.
On another interesting note, we brought our youngster into the house as a foster. At the time I had an older ACD mix who was extremely dog aggressive when young, but we worked with her for many years and she became a model citizen, and also really enjoyed “working” around other dogs. We ended up adopting the pup because my older ACD fell madly in love with her (though my BC was not as thrilled :-). Shortly after our youngster came into our home, my older ACD did some backsliding and was reactive in a few situations that caught me totally off guard because we hadn’t seen it in many, many years. In our case, the reactivity did seem to pass quickly, though I can’t say what the long term would have looked like because she was elderly and became very ill shortly thereafter.
Aya says
I am living in a similar situation with two male collies. The younger one has become jumpy (8 months) and the older one seems to regress to old, fearful habits I thought we would not have to face again.
Thank you for sharing! For me it was an eye opener and made sense of what is going on with us. The older one is very sesitive and still young too (2,5 years). I hope this is just a temporary phase and we’d get over it.
I have noticed that taking them out, having training sessions and feeding them separately every once in a while also seems to build both of their confidence. Especially, it is very easy to make the older dog extremely happy by taking him for a long walk on his own! Quality time with mama does wonders with him 😀
Lee Charles Kelley says
Do you play tug-of-war with the dogs (separately, of course), let them win, and praise them for winning?
Here’s why I ask.
1) The social instincts in wolves only exist to facilitate the hunting of large prey. Wolves who settle near garbage dumps don’t form real packs. Coyotes form packs, but only when they need to hunt large prey.
2) In order for the wolf’s aggression (his urge to bite) not be directed at his packmates, there has to be a behavioral/cognitive mechanism in place that allows the individual wolves to sublimate the energy behind that aggression into alternative, pro-social behaviors.
3) The primary mechanism facilitating a) the formation of packs, b) the pack hunting style, and c) the ability of each wolf to sublimate his urge to bite into alternative behaviors is probably oxytocin. Most predators kick their young “out of the nest” at about 6 mos. Wolf pups stay with their parents until they’re at least 2 – 3 years old. My theory is that wolf pups and parents keep producing oxytocin long after cougar and cheetah parents and their offspring do. Keeping the young around longer (due to oxytocin) would then enable the group to hunt together rather than separately (as seen in the big cats).*
4) The ability to bite and kill large prey on a regular basis is what marks the distinct differences seen in wild wolf packs (where dominant and submissive behaviors are practically non-existent), and captive packs (where these behaviors are the norm). When a real wolf pack becomes too big — essentially limiting the number of wolves who get the satisfying release of tension brought on by being able to bite and tear at the hide of a large prey animal — that’s when you also begin to see dominant and submissive behaviors emerge in such packs.
5) Modern dogs share a long evolutionary history with wolves. They retain many of the same behavioral and emotional tendencies. Wolves still make a living with their teeth. Dogs now make a living with their hearts. But no matter how big a dog’s heart is (and I get the feeling that both Will and Hope have huge, I mean, humungous hearts), a dog’s teeth and jaws are still hardwired to find satisfaction through biting prey objects. (This is why most dog owners have baskets full of toys, bones, etc.)
6) Some dogs have been bred to have less of a “kill bite” than others. Others have been bred to independently focus their urge to bite onto small prey animals, rather than to be part of a group hunting dynamic. These types of dogs are usually more susceptible to certain types of behavioral problems, similar to the ones you’re seeing in Will and Hope. That’s where the genetics comes in. (It’s always about the urge to bite, and how it’s either suppressed by breeding, repressed by training, or sublimated into social behaviors by the dog himself.)
7) Positive reinforcements are not actual, physical objects, events, or markers. They’re more akin to a function of statistics, measured solely in terms of a behavior’s response strength. We can only know if a tangible object, such as a toy or liver treat, might or might not have provided the mechanism for reinforcement by interpreting the resultant behavior after the fact, through a +R lens. Since it’s also possible to interpret any behavior through the opposite lens (-R)**, this leaves open the possibility that what we think we’re doing when we attempt to positively reinforce a behavior, may not be having the excact effect that we imagine it does.
8) Most people don’t think about this (since Freud has fallen out of favor in recent years), but the concept of positive reinforcement was actually a clinical outgrowth of Sigmund Freud’s “pleasure principle,” the idea that animals seek pleasurable experiences and avoid painful ones. However, Freud’s definition of pleasure was the release of pent-up emotion. If we look at Skinner’s rats and pigeons with this in mind, it makes sense that the mechanism for reinforcement may not have been the food pellet itself (or not just that), but that by learning to “operate on their environment” these animals found a way to release the internal tension and stress inherent to being held captive in an unnatural environment, one from which they couldn’t escape (a behavioral phenomenon we can see echoed in the stress-related behaviors of captive wolves).
9) Once we begin to see canine behavior as the expression of emotion, i.e., as the release of energy, and NOT as a function of positive reinforcement (not in the clinical sense), but, again, as a reduction of internal stress (which would be negative reinforcement), we might also begin to see what Will and Hope are trying to tell us. In other words, rather than labeling a behavior “juvenile onset shyness” or “part of the herding instincts” (both of which may very well be true), and try instead to view each bit of snippiness in Willie, or each expression of space-guarding anxiety in Hope, as first and foremost a release of pent up emotion, then the clearest solution would be to find a way to help both dogs learn how to release those emotions safely and productively through playing with their owner (who also happens to be the center of their universe).
That’s why I asked if you played tug-of-war with them, and why I attempted to post links to what’s called “The Pushing Exercise.”
I hope this helps!
LCK
* Lions hunt in groups, but they don’t normally hunt anything that a single lion couldn’t kill on her own.
** “Some stimulus changes associated with an increase in behavior are difficult to classify as [positive versus negative reinforcement], and the use of either description may be nothing more than an arbitrary and incomplete abbreviation for the
Sarah Stremming CPDT-KA says
My now 22 month old border collie Idgie was extensively socialized as a puppy to people, places, and dogs. At about 5 months of age, she decided dogs were terrifying and should be barked/lunged at, and then around 7 months she added fear of strangers to the mix. I got to work on both issues, and she is so much better now you would think it never happened. It’s hard to say if her good socialization prevailed in the end or if the behavior modification was really necessary for this kind of recovery. She is now very reliable and very appropriate with most people and most dogs, better than I expected by far.
Frances says
My toy poodle Poppy, 14 months, was all over a picnic party of strangers yesterday. Not polite behaviour, I know, but for a dog that hid behind me for months a very welcome sight!
Kathy says
Thanks for your honest comments about the relationship between your dogs. I have never had more than one dog in my home at a time. I have a 7 year old Samoyed and we got a puppy who is now 1 year old. I have no experience with dog interactions and was a little nervous. I have tried very hard to watch them with my “common sense” turned on. I am pleased to read that the muzzle bite is OK – I let it go although it was a little startling the first time Jazz did it to his “little brother.” Thanks for all of your comments, examples and insight. Having two male Sammies in the house has been an adventure and I joyfully accept any and all suggestions! Thanks again.
D says
I’m interested in separating the “dog correcting the puppy” issue from the fear & shyness. It seems a number of comments have indicated that bitches may be better at this. Is that true? In my case it is.
My senior, spayed BC bitch was a fearful, poorly socialized rescue. Over the years, with endless hours of training and work, we’ve overcome many of her fears, but she still doesn’t like to play with most dogs and is initially suspicious most of the time. YET, she will play and she does like puppies (although she never had any), and I can always count on her to give appropriate corrections to naughty puppies, and older dogs that get pushy as well. She’d be perfect with Hope, but you can’t have her! 🙂
My adult male BC came from a terrific breeder and was well socialized as a pup, and he loves most dogs and is always eager to play. Yet he doesn’t seem to have a clue about correcting puppies or pushy “teenagers.” If they get too pushy, he sulks and walks away. Hope would walk all over him, but I’m sure he’d play all day long with the Dobie bitch you’ve mentioned.
This is counter-intuitive to me. I would expect my male, who is far more sociable, to be better at doling out corrections, but it simply is not the case.
Heidi Meinzer says
Very, very interesting about eyesight and GSDs! I should get Sophie tested. I’m horribly nearsighted myself, and as a kid, it certainly affected my comfort level in water and other situations where I could not use glasses or contacts. Why shouldn’t it be the same for dogs?
Jennifer Medlin-Lloyd says
This happened to my dog Roscoe. He was totally outgoing when he was a puppy. At first I noticed he was head-shy when people would try to pet him, and he would bark at people in the woods. I thought I needed to get him out more, so I did, and had everyone give him treats. I really thought he was doing better and maybe outgrowing it when we were taking him for a walk at our local civic center and he bit a jogger.
I took him to a behaviorist who said he was dangerous, and it might be because he wasn’t socialized before he was ten weeks old. I got him from a shelter when he was ten weeks old, so this could well be. I feel even worse since he is an American Pit Bull Terrier and it seems like they always need to be on their best behavior since everyone is on the warpath against them. We’ve done everything the behaviorist said to do and I would say that he is worse with other people, so I am kind of frustrated. He is wonderful with us, just the most loving, smart, fun dog.
Marie-Emmanuelle says
Good evening,
I’m wondering: and what if Hope was only part of the back-to-my-parano
mungobrick says
I can’t recall any of my previous dogs having a juvenile fear period – Komondor, Golden Retriever, and GSD mix. The GSD mix would have been the most likely, given her personality, but was helped by living with the older laid-back-to-a-fault Golden. Current dog – Daisy, standard poodle mix – has been a basket case pretty much since we got her at ten weeks (although she is very calm as long as we keep to routine.) Always afraid of strange men, much much better with strange females now, wonderful with other dogs. Noise and motion sensitive. It’s genetic, I trust we haven’t contributed to it, but who knows?
Ashley says
I honestly don’t remember much about Makoto’s “fear period” and I knew so much less about dog behavior at the time than I do now, but he is an anxious dog. Though, he shows it very subtly, being an Akita/Shepherd mix and programed to “look cool.” We have been searching for a puppy to add to the household as well since our older Akita/Shep mix passed away, so your discussion of the right match is very timely for us.
Because Koto is anxious and a recovering leash-reactive dog who doesn’t have the best dog-dog social skills ever, we are planning to do a lot of individual work with him and the new dog. We don’t want the new dog to pick up Koto’s insecurities and inappropriate reactions, and like you’ve noted, we don’t want the puppy’s insecurities to bring out more of Koto’s. I’m wondering if keeping Will and Hope separated during Hope’s fear period might be helpful? I know that might sound crazy and is hugely impractical, but maybe they just aren’t helpful for each other at the moment but will be again in the future.
I wish you the best of luck and appreciate that you are sharing this dilemma with us so candidly. I have the utmost respect for you as a leader in the dog community and as a responsible owner. I know that you will make the right decision, no matter what that turns out to be.
Ashley says
Boo, I commented on this before I caught up on your blog. I now see that you’ve rehomed Hope and that both dogs are doing much better because of it. Good for you! I’m sorry you’ve had to make such a tough decision and even sorrier that some people have seen fit to judge you for it.
I think you’ve done a very responsible thing. I wish those who are judging you could see how different this is than irresponsible rehoming or viewing a dog as “disposable” or “inconvenient.” It’s true that many people get dogs without being prepared or willing to care for them properly, or who declare them “defective” when the slightest problem appears and refuse to do the right thing and help the dog through it. People dump dogs at shelters or on the street without a thought as to what the dog’s fate will be.
But that is not what you’ve done. A dog IS a commitment for life, but in this case, the best thing you could do for both Hope and Willie was to rehome Hope. Actually, I think it would have been selfish and irresponsible to KEEP him since this home is clearly right for him and he and Willie have proven it! I don’t know why people think that EVERYTHING is fixable and that the three of you should be miserable trying to force things to work. I certainly don’t like everyone I meet and there’s very few people I’d actually want to live with! Why should we expect something different from our dogs?
It is frustrating to witness what I consider an epidemic of irresponsible dog ownership in this country. It’s equally frustrating to see people attacking you, because I think you’re one of the best dog people out there. If only all dog owners had your compassion, candor, and interest in animal behavior and seeing things from the dog’s point of view.
anna patfield says
Hi Patricia
I’m wondering if you’ve made any progress or have any further insight into this concept?
Thanks
Anna
Haley H says
Hi there! I was wondering how things planned out for you and your dogs. My 8 month old Aussie is suddenly terrified of people and snaps in fear. I was wondering if yours ever grew out of the fear stage and how you managed it. Thanks!