As many of you know, when I went to pick up Willie after his surgery, he walked past me, greeted 4 other people, and would not make eye contact with me. This continued for 2 days after his surgery. It did not appear to be a consequence of the anesthetic or pain, in that although he was clearly a bit dopey, he enthusiastically greeted everyone else. The morning after surgery, as I sat beside him on the living room floor, he refused to lie down next to me, turned his tail to my face and lay looking longingly up the stairs toward my friend Meg. This continued, full throttle, for two days. Gradually he warmed up to me, and I’d say we are now back into the relationship we used to have. He loves me, I love him, and he loves everyone else just about as much. I say this because he greets me enthusiastically, snuggles against me when we lie down together, and does his charming little moan’y thing when he lays his head against my cheek. But I find myself fascinated by his reaction when I picked him up from surgery, and it has me thinking about what goes on in the mind of a dog.
There are two (at least) obvious explanations for his behavior:
1) He was able to instantly pick up on my anxiety about how he had done through the surgery, about the poor diagnosis and how his recovery would go. Thus, he sensed my anxiety, and consciously or not, he avoided me to avoid it.
2) He consciously “blamed” me for what happened to him.
The second explanation feels the most “anthropomorphic” and perhaps the one that might be immediately dismissed. I was betting on #1 at first, but as the days went on I began to change my mind. First off, he would have had to have sensed my internal state without any visual cues, since he never looked anywhere near my direction. Rather, he appeared to choose to avoid looking at me as he entered the room. However, surely he could have used other sensory information … chemical cues being the obvious ones, given the ability of a dog’s nose. I should add here that although I was indeed more concerned about his recovery and care than anyone else in the room, it is not as though I was agitated about it. I expect I was in about the same state that most owners would be in when picking up their dog from major surgery. I don’t think my behavior was especially “nervous” but that doesn’t mean that my scent didn’t change because of an internal state. So, I’d say we can’t dismiss that he avoided me because he sensed some internal anxiety on my part and it made him nervous, but neither can we presume that this was the case.
But by the next day I can imagine no sensory-related reason why he would continue to shun me, and make no mistake about it, behaviorally it was the exact equivalent of shunning. He simply refused to greet me, acknowledge me or make eye contact with me in anyway. He would take a piece of food from me, but without enthusiasm. The word “grudingly” comes to mind. All of his behavior fit what would be a “cognitive” explanation, in that he was “blaming” me for what happened to him. He behaved normally to everyone else, but behaved as though I was not in the room. It might be relevant (might not?) that I am his primary caretaker, I am the one who has taken him to all his vet appointments, restricted him to leash-only activity 4 other times in his life, and the one who took him in to the vet school, talked with numerous people about the diagnosis and surgery and eventually the one who handed him off for the procedure.
So. Is it possible that a dog could “blame” another? If we agree that “blame”is the “act of censuring, holding responsible, or making negative statements about an individual or group that their action or actions are socially or morally irresponsible” is a dog capable of it? (Not the speech part obviously.) I have to say that I have seen several cases of cat behavior that looked more like this than from a dog. It’s not uncommon for cats to ignore their owners when they return from a trip (but also be the kind of cat who loves visitors, so it’s not about being unfamiliar.) But I’ve heard less about this in relation to canine behavior. I know that many will argue that “blame” is a human construct and that we must avoid attributing it to dogs. But let me throw this out there: How much cognitive complexity would it take to hold another responsible for their behavior and act on that knowledge? Some of you commented on this when I first mentioned Willie’s behavior, with some arguing any thoughts of blame from a dog would a classic case of mis-placed anthropomorphism, while others argued that perhaps it’s not so radical to propose that a dog could make a “negative judgment” about the behavior of another and act on it accordingly. I’d say the trickiest part of this possibility is the requirement that a dog would have to hold a memory in his mind for a considerable period of time and continue to experience the emotion associated with something that happened in the past. Your thoughts? Your own experiences? I’d love to hear.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: It’s 97 degrees outside Farenheit, so I’m happy to be inside right now. Willie is sleeping in the crate, the sheep are lolling up the hill in a shady, breezy area, and the flower buds are opening and crumbling in the same day. Willie is on week 3 now after surgery. He is more animated than last week; I can’t say if that’s because he is adapting to his new life, or recovering from the exhaustion (and pain) of surgery. I’m guessing it’s some of both. His PT takes 1.5 hours a day — we had to keep up the heat (before) and ice (after) because there is still quite a bit of swelling around the surgery site. I have to admit I’ll be glad when each session no longer takes 30 minutes. It’s getting a bit old. We have another PT appt tomorrow, maybe we’ll be freed of the heat and ice?
We’re all doing okay with our new routine. When I’m not working I’ve been doing a lot of gardening instead of dog training and herding, Sushi has kept me and the medical profession busy — she had 2 teeth extracted yesterday and her kidney values aren’t so good, so besides the blood in her urine we are starting an entirely new protocol for her. (And yes, I’m hoping her kidney values improve after the teeth have been removed, but I can tell you I’m a lot more hopeful than my vet.) The orphan lambs are doing well, they are thinner than the other lambs but research suggests that they’ll catch up eventually.
Here they are right before I gave the lambs their grain for the day:
And here’s an Iris that bloomed this morning:
Marie says
I know many will attribute my comment as being anthropomorphic. But I do think dogs have more emotions then we know.
I have a blanket that always covers my sofa because I allow my dog on the sofa. My dog always, always pulls the blanket off the sofa in the rare instance I leave him home alone. I walk in and my dog hides without any reaction from me to the blanket on the floor. When I find him his ears are back and his tail is between his legs, Is he upset and blaming me for leaving him? Is he feeling guilty he did it? Or does he know he did something that will not please me? There lies the question.
If he pulls the blanket off because he is angry then his reaction when I come home is expected and he anticipates my reaction. Remember, I give NO reaction when I walk in the door. I have purposely kept my body loose and even called him in a high pitched, excited tone that usually means, “let’s play!”
I guess I think there is still a lot of studies yet to be done about what dogs do feel and what they think.
2dogcrazy says
This makes me think of abuse cases, in which a dog remembers a man or woman abusing them, and then has issues with other men or women.
I don’t find it a stretch at all that dogs can hold onto certain memories, especially if it might affect their long-term survival, in a way. If you (general you) are a consistent bearer of good things, any dog will remember that and generate positive associations with you and want to be around you (isn’t this something positive theories are based on)? On the other side of the coin, if you’re consistently the bearer of bad things, a dog will remember that and try to avoid you.
It seems like you’ve been a Bad News person for the past few months with leash-only exercise, therapy exercises that are potentially painful, etc, and perhaps the ordeal of surgery was the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak.
Kat says
I’m one of those who has trouble with the idea of a dog blaming (or a cat either for that matter) since to me blame implies a mental construct “you are responsible for my discomfort/pain/unhappiness whatever.” I’ve been on the receiving end of a shunning from cats on many occasions. In those cases it has always seemed to me that the cat wanted to make his displeasure clearly understood to the person with the most power to effect the cat’s life. After all, I’m the one that brings things in, takes things out, adds and subtracts things that the cat considers desirable or undesirable. I’m the one the cat associates with things. That’s really where my distinction lies, I know I am associated with things in the minds of my pets but to me associated is not equal to blamed. It could be simply a semantic issue for me but blame to me means more sophisticated cognitive reasoning and association less sophisticated reasoning.
Because I accidentally nipped his skin when cutting out a particularly dense mat behind his ear Ranger doesn’t like scissors. He associates me having the scissors in my hand with an experience of pain. Does he blame me or more precisely me with scissors for an experience of pain or does he associate me with scissors with that experience and exhibit reluctance to have me nearby when I have scissors in hand.
It would be so much easier if we really understood how they process the world but when everything we observe is run through our filters and assembled within our internal narrative it is exceedingly difficult to figure out how animals process the things they experience. And the more I think about it and try to feel my way to a summary of what I think the more it comes down to what I can say with confidence, that I am associated with good things and bad things in their lives and what I cannot say with confidence that that association is the same as blame.
Beth says
Dogs are very good at “If this, then that” conclusions. That is what makes them so easy to train. “If I sit, I get a treat. If I jump, the door stays closed.”
When I was a teenager, we had a lab. I was at an age where, animal-crazy though I’d always been, I honestly didn’t do too much with the family pet. I greeted him and petted him around the house, but I wasn’t taking him on walks or anything. I was busy (working and going to school) and besides, the dog weighed as much as I did.
One winter, we got a huge snow storm, nearly two feet, unusual for our area. I had no good “snow boots” and borrowed a pair of my mom’s to go out and clean my plowed-in car; we had street parking. Since the roads were blocked by snow, I took that dog out with me to play. I tossed him snowballs while I cleaned my car for a couple hours. Like most big dogs, he adored the snow more than anything except maybe swimming.
Flash forward a year. One full year. We had another big storm. I dragged out my mom’s snow boots, and the dog went nuts. Whining, barking, bowing, clearly excited. Out of all the things I had done to prep for shoveling (hat, coat, gloves) clearly the one thing he associated with playing in the snow was putting on those boots, something I had never done before or since the storm. Considering the fact that it was many minutes between putting on the boots the first time and his getting to play, and considering it had happened only once and a year ago at that, AND considering this dog was not actually the brightest bulb in the chandelier, I found this feat pretty amazing.
My own Corgis will recognize someone who gave them a treat just once from a city block or two away and start to get very excited.
So, did Willie associate you with the surgery? I think it’s tough to argue that he didn’t; you dropped him off, it was probably not a pleasant experience.
Was his shunning you because of the association necessarily “blame”? Well, it could have been and since dogs show signs of love, devotion, and jealousy, I don’t know that “blame” is too complex an emotion to assign to a dog.
There might be another explanation though. He might have carefully run through all the behaviors he exhibited immediately before the trip to the vet in his head, and not being able to determine which one was different, did not know which one prompted the “punishment” of being left at the vet’s, and so carefully avoided you do to his helplessness in determining cause-and-effect. In the case of the lab and the happy snow storm, he singled out one action that was different out of everything else I did: putting on my mom’s boots. He clearly made the association after the fact, since the fun of playing in the snow did not follow the boot-wearing within the second or two that we consider a reward window. So some sort of replay of “What happened before the good thing/ bad thing?” would seem to be within a dog’s range of talents. (Of course one could argue I was wearing the boots the entire time we were outside playing, and he might have just formed the “boots= snow” association, but then my mom wore the boots regularly and he never got excited when he saw the boots, just when he saw ME getting them out of the closet).
The other day in agility, our trainer was showing us a way to teach sniffy dogs to leave it using a silent game where you hold a treat in your hand and close your hand whenever the dog tries to get it. The dog is meant to look away from the treat and to you for direction, and at that point you reward the dog by handing the treat. Later you can attach a “take it” command to the game.
I tried it with Jack and after nosing my hand, pawing, then going through a range of tricks (waving, speaking, lying down, etc) to try to elicit the treat he gave up and acted just like you describe: he carefully looked away, ignored me, paid attention to everyone else in the class. I later re-engaged him and he learned how to “win” the game. I asked if he was saying “Well, I don’t want to play YOUR game” and she said it’s more of a “This game is too hard. I quit.” response.
Unable to determine what action will elicit the reward, the dog sort of shuts out the person trying to engage him. He doesn’t get the rules of the game (and this is not how I normally train him, since I usually use shaping or capturing) so he doesn’t want to engage at all.
It occurs to me that Willie had a protracted case of not wanting to engage you because he could not figure out which of his own actions caused the surgery, and so he figured he would avoid interacting with you at all. Had something very unusual happened right before surgery, he might have isolated his avoidance to that one activity. He didn’t necessarily have to continue thinking about it after that first shunning incident in the waiting room; the shunning could have become a self-replicating cycle where he no longer remembered why he did it, just that he did it.
Just a thought.
Roberta Beach says
My mowers cut down my irises – I was not happy but am just reminding them though it is too late now in MO.
Yes, a dog can blame and hold a grudge. One of about 3 of my favorite hounds of all time was torn apartt by a St. Bernard and a GSD who were in heat and intact; another neighbor’s dog was injured as well. After that, it was gloves off. If I didn’t catch her, she was at the Saint’s (the GSD had been “sent away”). Or the Saint was at my home going after my free range Beagle right up onto my porch as well as Lady Bird . Only after she again went after the same neighbor’s dog did her owner take responsibility. Our dogs are in the country, they can be off leash; most aren’t but some are. If they cause trouble, their liberty is curtailed. Lady Bird is now in a foster home in ME with another rescue group to keep her safe from the Saint who now is no longer here. DAMN. I really liked that dog and she was FIT; she used me and my vehicle when I was trying to catch her one evening as a plaything to run against – she ran at 25 MPH. She saw me coming, I slowed down, she moved to the other side of the road and kept ahead of and an eye on me as I very carefully tried to get ahead of her. HA.
So glad Willie has regained his trust and demonstrativeness.
Kerry says
I had a similar type of reaction from my dog when I left for college. I was a teenager when we got her, and she was a family dog, but she was closest to me through high school and even my first year of college. I lived within a couple of hours to home so I was able to come home every month or so.
The problem was my second year when I ended up going overseas for a couple of semesters and was away for 6 months. When I returned, she was completely disinterested in me. She wouldn’t look at me; wouldn’t come to me; pretty much didn’t want anything go to do with me. I tried not to take it too personally especially since she had aged a lot during the time I was gone. I thought at first she might just not know me because her sight and hearing wasn’t as strong as it had been, but they hadn’t declined that much and she did still have her sense of smell. Then I thought maybe she had just forgotten me, but when my sister came home, the dog was pretty happy to see her. And she had been away for longer than I had been.
Our relationship never completely recovered. I was home for that summer so we had a chance to spend time together, but it was never the same for her. I don’t know if she blamed me for leaving or just didn’t trust me any more, but I went from her favorite person in the house to a person she could tolerate.
Jen says
In the two times since having her my Doberman, Elka, has been handed off for veterinary procedures requiring sedation, I was the one to bring her, and I was the one who picked her up (come to think of it, I’m the one who takes her to the vet, period). Both times (spay, and Xray for broken toe) she was as happy to see me as sedation allowed, and velcroed herself to me more than usual, but otherwise did not act accusatory or blameful. We also had to deal with posting and taping her cropped ears for several weeks, which was not entirely pleasant, but she’s still perfectly accommodating to having her ears handled as we will. So much of those first few weeks, though, were telling Elka “no scratch”, and redirecting her back paw from scratching her taped head, and even today when she goes to scratch her head, she starts out next to it in the air, in anticipation of redirection, before proceeding.
I definitely feel that dogs have a lot of what would be considered “human” emotions, and I do have a sense that dogs take stock of who has taken what action in different situations. Also, considering memory is so linked to the olfactory part of the brain, and dogs’ worlds can be so very scent based, I think it entirely possible for dogs to have long-lasting situational memories.
Michy says
Well, this seems to be a bit of the flip side of the coin for conditioning. When we want our dogs to be less reactive to things, one method is to counter-condition them by heaping treats on them when their achilles heel so to speak is near. The idea, of course, is to make them associate said thing (person, animal, whatever) with good things happening. So if they can learn that good things happen under certain circumstances, then why can’t they do the same with bad? I don’t think that quite makes it to blame in the way humans see it, but we just don’t know for certain exactly how much they understand, and how they understand it.
Frances says
Another very interesting discussion. I know that I am very careful to apologise profusely to any of my animals – cats or dogs – if I accidentally hurt them. The tone of voice, plus the reassuring touch, seems to counterbalance the bad experience and help to wipe it from memory. Animals have long memories for bad associations, as we know – whether we call it “blame” or “an association with Bad Stuff for Dogs” may be irrelevant. Did Willie warm up to you while Meg was still staying? And has she stayed to help with him before? It would be interesting to know if he associated her presence with you having to do rather unpleasant things to him.
At the same time, dogs are often credited with the “intelligence” of a two-year old child – and I know that I behaved in a very similar way when I came home from hospital as a two year old (back in the dark ages when parents were not allowed to visit because it “upset the children”). I hid under furniture and refused to respond to my mother’s coaxing. My mother saw it as blame – it is too long ago for me to remember exactly how I felt, but I think it probably was a combination of determination not to be sent back to hospital, a loss of trust that she could protect me from horrible experiences, and a discovery that I got a lot of treats and attention by being difficult!
Anne says
“How much cognitive complexity would it take to hold another responsible for their behavior and act on that knowledge? ”
This seems like a very culturally biased question, actually. There are human cultures and philosophies that do not assign “blame” or “responsibility” to any particular person. Basically, either “sh*t happens” or bad things occur because of spirits, luck, or other extraneous forces. Holding people personally responsible is not universally human, nor would I guess, a trait among all dogs.
I don’t understand why it can’t simply be that a dog will associate a person with his current bad/good state. Willie is associating you, at the moment, with bad things happening. You took him to the vet. When you’re around, his movements are restricted.
When he gets better, he will associate you once again with good things.
Why would a complex concept like blame be involved with any of this? Unless you mean blame to be what is described above…an association, or connection.
I am thoroughly puzzled.
teresavet says
I think animals (as we do) process negative information faster and for a longer time than they do with possitive information. That’s why animals and children have trouble in the clinic the second time they go. One bad experience its all it takes.
I don’t know if its blame (I’m working in dog Theory of Mind for my PhD, I let you know…), as I haven’t found any paper about that.
But I’m sure my animals (and my friends’) get “angry” with me when I have to treat them for any illness, and they ignore me, or give me my space, for minutes, hours, or even days! after the procedure. It depends on the particular animal personality the length of time of “me isolation” though. My labrador never “blames” me, and keeps with his normal behavior, but my schnauzer doesn’t look at me for hours.
Donna Brown says
I applaud you for being willing to entertain the notion that a dog or cat could “blame” another. I am also willing to believe that, but if they can blame, might they also usually be willing to forgive us because of their generous hearts? (I hate to say it but could the reason cats seem to “blame” more dramatically or frequently be due to personality differences?) I do things to my dogs all the time that they must experience as unpleasant (right now I am treating one for a deep laceration that must be flushed, treated, and bandaged every day and I know it hurts him. Of course I give him apologies, treats and “payment”). What would have
happened if you grovelingly accepted Willie’s “blame” and had immediately apologized profusely? Who knows what they understand or how they understand it! I am just glad they do seem to be such forgiving souls. Last night I accidentally left The Matriarch who is a permanent house dog, in the kennel after I fed the pack, and did not notice I had left her behind in the kennel until this morning. When I let her out, profusely apologizing for my error, she was simply happy and wagging. Her daughters spent a long time licking her face and ears. I was so fortunate she did not “blame” me when she would have been perfectly justified in doing so.
We know they understand “accidental” hurts like stepping on a tail or paw and what it means when you apologize for that, at least it certainly seems so, so perhaps Willy would have understood “I’m sorry” post surgically, though I am betting you did, in fact, apologize, right?! I have never had one appear to hold a grudge as long as Willie appeared to, or refuse to forgive when an apology was made. Remember all the “reconciliation” work in various species? Maybe Willie needs to re-read that literature!
trisha says
I like Beth’s third hypothesis – that Willie was avoiding any action that might have led to the “punishment” of being left for surgery. And to Anne: interesting point that there are human cultures that do not assign “blame” to others. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that dogs are unable to, only that humans have the ability to do so or not based on cultural morays. From the discussion so far I am reminded how much of this issue relates to conscious associations. We all agree that of course dogs can associate A with B (so can earthworms). The question — that science does not yet have an answer to — is how much of the association is conscious, and how much of the association involves a judgment, which is surely the most cognitive part of this phenomenon.
And to Anne again: please be clear I’m not arguing that my experience with Willie is a cut and dried example of a dog blaming someone. I’m merely asking if perhaps we should allow ourselves to consider that as a possibility rather than rejecting it out of hand.
And to assuage any benevolent concerns: Willie’s behavior lasted only 2 days. I continue to restrict his exercise and freedom, make him do exercises he clearly doesn’t enjoy but he now behaves toward me as he always has, friendly, loose and loving. I’m interested that, so far, the stories of similar behavior, whether from dogs or cats, include about the same length of time of ignoring or shunning.
Debbie says
I would toss out #1 even though intellectually it makes more sense. He was doped up and his senses were dulled. You may have been feeling angst about his diagnosis, but weren’t you also excited to see him and be reunited? I would discount the chemical smells, etc.
I don’t see why it isn’t possible for Willie to make the connection that: 1. Trish drops him off at vet; then 2. Needles and pain commence. 3. Willie gets pissed off.
Would it depend on how much time elapsed between the drop off (abandonment) and the pre-surgery prep?
It’ll take most dogs one trip to the drive up window of an espresso stand to figure out that a dog treat is coming. The second time, they’re drooling with excitement. Isn’t that the same thing as dropping a pup off at the vet and him abruptly being “mistreated?”
When I leave my dogs for a few days, they go into a pout when I come back. It’s not that they’ve forgotten me, it’s not that they’re punishing me, I think it’s just that they’re mad.
When my previous dog was sleeping in the road years ago, a car ran over him. He spent a few days in treatment but was otherwise ok. When I brought him home and took him out to potty the first time, he glared at the road and growled at it, like the road was responsible for hurting him.
Willie’s a smart and sensitive dog. Isn’t he even hyper sensitive?
I remember you wrote that Luke used to get mad at you. Why isn’t it possible that Willie be mad as well.
And I believe you reacted properly as well. You pacified him. He forgave you. The end.
Again, I’m just a lay person who loves dogs. I can’t get into that deep stuff you brainiacs do, it makes me dizzy but it’s sure fun to read about. = )
KateH says
My friend and I have always given our dogs ‘voices’ because we know full well they have thoughts and feelings and most of the time it’s pretty dang obvious what they are ‘saying’ in different situations. Our 14 yr old greyhound princess is normally uninterested in other dogs, and the smaller they are the more firmly she puts that disinterest across. However, she’s never been actually nasty to another dog, unlike my 12 yr old lab mix, who’s always been actually dangerous to other dogs (even biting other dogs here – once each on 3 different dogs). So when a former client (I’m a petsitter/dog walker) told me, after 5 weeks of visits with her new puppy, that she wouldn’t need me anymore because she was taking the puppy back to the shelter (the Monday of Thanksgiving, when the shelter would be closed for a total of 5 days before anyone would even be able to come in for adoptions), I said, “Oh, I’ll find her a home,” just intending on keeping her in another part of the house for the time it would take so my lab x wouldn’t be able to get to her and harm her. In an insane twist I would never have believed, the lab x saw the puppy (who was in a crate behind a baby gate), and instead of her usual snarl scream of “Let me at it it must die!”, she sniffed and wagged and after 3 days of me shaking my head in bewilderment, I let them get together and nothing bad happened. So, of course, I kept the puppy. But when I did further real introductions to the princess, she just about threw her head up like a snarky teenager, stalked away, avoided all eye contact with me and the puppy and when I tried to pet her, she got off the couch and went into the other room, quite clearly saying to me, “You SUCK!” A little later, when the puppy came near her, she snarled and snapped and only someone who refuses to accept the obvious, would think she wasn’t telling the puppy, “Get the &^$* away from me!” For a week I was persona non grata and the puppy took a wide path around her. It took another week before the princess would even stay on the same couch with me, and if the puppy tried to come up too, she got down and walked away. Finally, at the end of the 3rd week, the puppy was allowed on the couch and she wouldn’t leave, as long as the puppy’s body wasn’t touching her – anywhere! It was a month later that I found the puppy snuggled up next to the princess, but as soon as the princess saw me, she jumped off the couch, and ‘said’ “I hope you appreciate that I didn’t kick that thing’s ass off the couch” and walked away. Eventually, finally, miraculously, they do sleep together, back to back, smaller dog curled up to the princess’s tummy, head over shoulder, etc. I never thought the princess would be the problem – she’s accepted 3 other dogs before without incident – and it was almost amusing to listen to her bitching this time. And, yes, it was bitching. Many, many years ago, a neighbor had a baby when her (previously only) daughter was 15. The drama, screaming and sarcasm from daughter to parents was much worse than I endured here (because dogs are inherently not as crazy as teenagers), but I’m pretty sure the princess even threw *eye rolls* at me on several occasions.
Heather Staas says
I don’t think it needs to be on a complicated level. I know dogs in a group “know” which dog is delaying the reward if waiting for a group response for something. They seem to get frustrated with the dog that is taking too long to comply. That would suggest that they understand on some level anyway that others are responsible for things that happen (or not) directly to them from a third party, no? How far can that carry beyond the direct/immediate realm? I don’t know, and I suspect it varies between dogs…
Jeff says
So I love dogs, and everyone that knows me knows I love dogs so I talk to a lot of people about their dogs. So the key that made me think about this article is you mentioned that you were the primary caregiver. I have noticed something in families with dogs. Usually dogs are more excited and greet other people and seem happier to see other people than the primary caregiver. Just last night I was talking to a lady I work with and she was talking about her dog getting old, 10 years, and she was thinking of getting another so when he did go that it would maybe not be as hard on her child and there wouldn
Beth says
Hmm. I find it interesting when people talk about apologizing to their dogs when they accidentally hurt them (step on a toe, pull on a hair tangle).
My experience is that it is the DOGS who “apologize” profusely by engaging in a rapid sequence of appeasement gestures: ears back; low, rapid wagging; lowered posture. I generally say something like “Oops, it’s ok!” in a cheery voice so THEY stop apologizing. I always took it as dogs don’t understand accident very well (we are much more physically clumsy than most dogs, after all) and assume if we hurt them we meant it, and so go into appeasement mode. I’ve heard of some very dominant dogs who go into correction mode instead, correcting their people for a transgression.
As far as cats, cats are not pack animals the way dogs are. In a natural state they would choose to live alone or pair up with one buddy. They don’t even stay with their mates. Loose colonies are not social groups the way dog packs are, but rather cats clustering around a resource (often shelter and/or water in an urban or suburban setting). As such, their encounters with their own kind are highly ritualized and easily go wrong. Two cats can live together peacefully for years and suddenly something goes wrong and they hate each other.
It’s hard to know what goes on in a cat’s brain because WE are social creatures who adore the company of our own kind (like most dogs), and we can’t comprehend the mind of an animal that prefers solitude. My guess is that when we are gone for long periods, there is meant to be some sort of ritualized “I have been away and now I’m back” posturing that we neglect to partake in, which is why cats sometimes seem to ignore us out of “spite” if we’ve been gone a long time. I’ve had the opposite experience with my own cats, where they are always thrilled to see me and follow me around like a shadow for days. But I did have a cat shun me when we started caring for a stray kitten that he clearly wanted to chase away; I’d broken some rule by siding with the kitten, I guess.
sue kinchin says
Willie’s behaviour as he came out of the surgery doesn’t surprise me at all. I would interpret it that Willie was understandably still stressed by his experience and would for a while be trying to appease just about every human he came into contact with in an attempt to avoid something like that happening again at the hands of strangers ‘out of the blue’ ! He knows you well enough to know you don’t suddenly do nasty things to him. He hasn’t got to be worrying about you or about appeasing you, he CAN safely turn his back on you, but is going to keeping and eye on your friend Meg, and everyone else ‘just in case’. I’d put money on it not being a case of him deliberately ignoring you, but that he was paying more attention than usual to other people. I’d take it as a sign of his trust in you that he felt he could ignore you whilst keeping all his attention on everyone else. With so much to potentially worry about he wouldn’t have spare mental energy to engage in his ‘normal’ relationship with you. As he gradually relaxed he was able to interact with you normally.
AnneJ says
Dogs blame us all the time. Some appease and “suck up” while others avoid us. Think of when you accidently trip and knock something scary over so it nearly hits a sensitive dog. That dog may avoid you for a while, blaming you for nearly smashing him with some scary chair or something. Or if you have to give an animal a lot of medical treatments they avoid you. Just ask a vet how many patients blame them for giving shots, exams etc. They really appreciate those generous animals who are always happy to see them no matter how many discomforts they have gone through in the office.
AnneJ says
I think the question might not be do dogs blame others, but do they express their displeasure by “shunning” to try to get back at us, like a person might do, or is there a fear/worry based reaction going on there.
Julia says
Another interesting topic! I think it is possible for them to be “disconnected” from their primary person after a traumatic event, I’m not sure if it quite adds up to blame. And, of course, it seems that some dogs have a personality makeup that would exhibit that behavior while others would not.
Xena, my 8yr old Boxer, has been through at least 6 surgery procedures that I can think of, at least 2 of which required several days in the hospital. I was always the one to drop her off and there was only one time when I did not pick her up. She always left with the tech like they were throwing her a party and returned to us in similar (although usually quite drunken/dopey) fashion.
My sister had a Newfoundland years ago with very severe hip dysplasia and he had painful surgery that required several days stay at the vet. He was also neutered at the same time. When my sister went to visit him, he refused to look at her. I cannot recall how long this lasted, but at very least their initial reunion consisted of him looking away and not responding to her. At the time, she joked that it was the neuter that upset him 😉 but it does seem like a candidate for the “blame” hypothesis. Harlie was also an extremely intelligent dog who seemed to do more logic/reasoning than the average pup.
Karissa says
My eldest dog has been extremely resentful every time I’ve brought home a new puppy. He was not “happy” when I brought home an adult foster dog, but he did not give me the evil stink eye like he did for the puppies — so maybe he knew the adult wasn’t staying? 🙂
Luke had been an only dog for four years when I brought Kaiser home. He had been the center of my world, going to work with me, going to the barn with me, agility classes/trials, etc. He had never had to share me with anyone/anything — nor did he have to share the affections of my parents (ie: Grandma & Grandpa).
He was mad & sulky when I brought home Kaiser. He would blatantly ignore me any time food or balls weren’t involved. When we would see my parents, he would make a point to go lay by them and ignore me. My mom took Luke for the day once to give him some quality time and to give me time with the puppy. She said Luke was bouncing & happy all the way up to my house. As soon as he came through the door and saw that the puppy was still there he completely deflated and got sulky again. It took him about a month to get over it.
When I brought home the next puppy a couple of years later his fit did not last so long and wasn’t so pronounced, but he still gave me the stink eye any time she would go near him. He clearly blamed me for bringing home that annoying little pest. lol
Anne S says
I, for one, have always been an advocate of open-mindedness when it comes to deciphering dog cognition and emotion. I love that Trisha has posed the question, and not discounted the dog’s ability to blame out of hand. Currently, one of my dogs is involved in some studies going on at the Harvard Canine Cognition Laboratory. Her most recent participation is in a series of experiments designed to test dogs’ sense of fairness. So, I guess all I can say to this is “stay tuned” and don’t assume anything:-)
Steve Shaffer says
Wow. We think “blame” is too complicated for the dog to feel so we invent even more complex mental/emotional gymnastics to explain the observed behavior. Blame really isn’t that complicated, it’s just recognizing that a negative (to us) event is a result of another’s actions and in this case avoiding the cause of the unpleasantness for a while. This is no different than recognizing any other cause of negative events and avoiding them which canids excel at. Now, the question is would, like a human, they be personally miffed with you?
Another interesting question is the flip side of the coin. If they recognize blame do they also recognize it’s opposite? Would that be gratitude? (recognizing you as the cause of a positive). They certainly seem to do so. Ask anyone who has “rescued” a dog from a bad situation. We have fostered dogs for an Assistance Dog program where the dog is selected from a pound by the head trainer. Invariably all of those dogs remembered her years later even if she wasn’t involved in their training. They also greeted her with great gusto (well outside the range of their normal greeting behavior) when she came to pick them up at the end of the 3 month foster period.
My vote based on experience is yes to both counts.
orietta siri says
I have two episodes to share, both involving dogs:
1) six years ago my working place was moved and I started to commute fm Monday to Friday. We had a 9 years old dog (a male boxer) as family dog who was very affectionate to me but not only “mine” as he lived and slept in my mother-in-law apartment (some house/garden on two different floors to give you the idea) even before me leaving the house. When I came home on Friday evenings he did not interact with me until the next morning (avoiding contact and bell rubbing) and he started to interact only after having checked that I did not moove the car. If I moved the car (just for 2 hours shopping …) in the morning he post-poned our reunion until afternoon or when he was sure that I was staying at home for the weekend.
2) Bella our rescued Lab (if you remember my previous comments) is always ver very sweet and ready to stay near me, even too much… except on the Monday mornings when I leave for the week. In the first weeks we had her (2 weeks to be precise) she heard me (she sleeps outside in “her” part of the garden) and came to the fence to greet me (I even gave her some treats because I felt sorry to wake her up in the early morning abt 6 am and then leave her) but when she realized that I was leaving for the week she stopped to greet me. I’m sure she hears me but refuses even eye contact moving in her crate to show me her back. No problem at all when I come back home, full swing of happiness for us both..
Very interisting discussion as usual, looking forward to read more comments
Lisa G. says
My golden retriever will not “speak” to me for at least a full day after I bring her to the groomer. She tolerates grooming well but it isn’t her favorite thing, she is very submissive and I think she gets stressed during the process. Usually I am “her person”, she kind of ignores my husband unless she wants someone to wrestle with. On grooming days she will not look at me, she won’t play with me, she won’t come to me when I call her, she won’t even sleep next to me (which is her favorite thing to do). I totally and completely think that she blames me. I am the one that is her primary care giver (feeding, brushing, walks, training) and am her safe haven so I think she feels betrayed when I bring her to do something that she hates and is a little afraid of. Then to top it off, I leave her there in the care of the groomer so I think she feels abandoned and a little ticked and wants to watch me grovel for at least 24 hours 🙂
Tina E says
I have seen this in my fearful dog & I attribute it to a breakdown of trust. We condition our dogs to look to us for direction & to keep them safe, that requires they trust us not to harm them. On the few occassions that I have had her in situations that while medically necessary, were aversive to her (vet stay, anethesia, crate rest), it took several days of “building trust” before she was back to her old self. At the time I didn’t perceive it to be a “blame” issue, more of a “when you said you weren’t going to leave me again, you did! I don’t believe you anymore.”
Dee says
Being a mom of 5, I went through this with kids. Not so much that they “blamed” me, but that they felt safe to vent their irritability from pain/illness out on me. I would still love them and take care of them. They could be mean and cranky with Mom like they were with no one else. Maybe Willie felt like he could let his guard down with you, but still had to charm the “strangers.” Once the kids were well again, they were back to being sweet and loving.
My favorite anthropomorphic story of “blame” or “punishment” was my first dog and my first husband 24 years ago. My brother gave me a 1-yr-old female Brittany he thought he was going to raise to hunt, but changed his mind. (My mother told me all my years growing up, “When you are an adult and have your own house, you can get a dog.” I was in my first house a month and my brother gave me this dog.) She was afraid of my husband and me at first. I sat quietly with treats around me and allowed her to take her time. She was in my lap within an hour. My husband was impatient with her (and so many other things. His current status is ex-husband).
We had to go somewhere for a couple of hours the second day we had her and gave her t-shirts we had each slept in to get used to our scents. I set up a small room as her “crate” which she got out of while we were gone.
I found her asleep on the couch on top of the sheet I had placed on her bedding, which she spread out on the couch, her head on a pillow, snuggling with my t-shirt. She had spread my husband’s t-shirt out on the dining room floor and pooped on it. Smart dog! She had him figured in a day. It took me years. 😉
em says
If “negative association” is described as unconscious, and “blame” is described as conscious, I think that I fall closer to the blame camp. I don’t think that dogs do a great deal of abstract thinking, but I do believe that they can think consciously about concrete things. They are certainly whizzes at chaining backwards to make associations between events and stimuli that are not immediately connected with them. That implies both a competent use of memory-both recalling the sequence of events and reflecting on that sequence. Cats, too, though it’s often harder to observe, outside of the cold-shoulder.
I actually had an experience with my cat that would argue against the feline ‘cold shoulder’ being a simple break down of trust. Back when Sophia, Empress of all the Kittens was the only critter in my household, I went away for a short vacation. After an absence of three days, I returned home. My cat greeted me enthusiastically for about ten seconds, then proceeded to bite my ankles. She followed me around the whole house for nearly fifteen minutes, hissing and periodically smacking or snapping at my feet, a very uncharacteristic behavior. It’s possible that she was simply over-excited by my absence and return, but she was NOT playing, she was MAD. She’s always been a very bossy cat with a great deal of attitude and firm ideas about what she will and will not tolerate, but outright unprovoked aggression is very rare for her. She was fine for the sitter (of course). On the plus side, the hissy fit only lasted fifteen minutes or so, followed by an hour of glaring, and she was back to normal.
I’m also interested in the idea that several posters have brought up about apology…even if dogs can assign blame, can they understand the notion of apology? I’ve observed gestures between dogs that I loosely interpret as apologetic…if one dog gets too rough or careless during play and the other yelps, I’ve often seen the ‘apology check’-dog pauses, sniffs and touches yelper gently with nose, sometimes offering an appeasement gesture before resuming play. Otis will do this to people, too, if they get clipped by galloping dogs at the park (not necessarily him). But he also does it if someone falls accidentally, so what does this mean?…If dogs can think about blame, can dogs indicate to one another that they are sorry? That the event was an mistake and that they do not intend to repeat it? Or are they simply worried and checking in or offering appeasement to avoid punishement from the offended party? I know that when I hurt or scare my dogs accidentally, I try to act the same way–quick check to make sure they’re ok, reassuring word or pat, then on with the show. I try not to feel bad or carry on about whatever it was, lest I upset them more than necessary.
Stuff happens, and a full life carries many risks. Fortunately, it seems to me that dogs have just as much capacity to let go of negative feelings, accept bum deals, and move on (consciously or unconsiously) as they do to form these associations (consciously or unconsciously) in the first place.
Michele T. says
I’ve seen this type of response in dog twice and agree with Tina E. about it being a breakdown of trust. Both were rescue dogs. One that I had fostered and placed in a loving home. He came to me for a short visit when his owners had to go to a funeral. When they returned 2 days later he acted as if he didn’t know them as was very heistant to go to them (I felt awful!) I told them that once they got him home he’d probably be fine, and he was after a few days. The other dog was a dog that my husband and I adopted. We were moving from California to Minnesota, and had hired a private transport to take 12 of our dogs to MN. Two dogs stayed with my husband in California while I flew to MN to greet the transport and get the dogs settled into boarding until the final move. One of the 2 dogs that stayed in California with my husband basically saw most of his pack and me his primary caregiver leave. A few weeks later when I got back to California, Monty “activley” ignored me and would only respond to my husband. He didn’t pay any attention to me for days, in fact it wasn’t until we arrived at the new house where all of our stuff and his pack was that he appeared to “forgive” me. I think this is possibly particularly an issue for rescue dogs since they’ve often gone through abandonment before.
Kathi says
The first, and only, time I made my first Aussie ride in a crate he exhibited a similar response. As soon as I left him out of the crate he walked over to me, jumped up and nipped me (which he never did before and never after), then turned his back and stalked away. I was summarily shunned the entire rest of that day and part of the next though he was his usual self with my husband and the neighbors. I even tried to get him to play a game of Frisbee with me and he refused.
S O'Hanlon says
Radio programme (R4) Womans Hour today featured a lady that spent a year in a ‘living’ coma but was aware of everything around her. She explained that during that time she actually hadn’t wanted to hear how her children were doing (apart from that they were ok) as she went from being a full-on mum to being unable to do anything with them. She shut down the maternal/caring side of her brain. The reason why I thought of this was that she explained that even when she emerged from the coma she was still struggling to really ‘switch on’ that side again, though she was getting there. The discussion panel likened it to switching off emotional bonds during a crisis that requires you to concentrate on survival.
Daniela W. says
I agree with Tina E. I think instead of anthropomorphizing Willie’s behavior and calling it ‘blame’, it would be more useful to see the trends you’ve set up and what the dog is expecting to happen. I believe most people who truly pay attention to their dogs behaviors can attest to having a negative reaction to a situation in which the dog believed one thing was going to happen but in reality something else did.
I have been working with Tyler (Pit X) for years on accepting his nails being cut. He has always been extremely sensitive to his paws being touched, so for him to let me clip them is a big deal. We were doing great until he split his front nail (second digit) and had to have surgery to cut it all the way back. It was pretty gruesome looking and I imagine very painful for him.
After the surgery (he was out of my control for 4 hours) he ‘shunned’ (almost exact same response as Willie) me for the rest of the evening. This did not surprise me, however, what has caught me off guard is that we are back to square one with nail desensitization.
I think that in Tyler’s mind he was thinking, “although I don’t like it, every time someone touches my paw, I get nice things and I don’t feel pain. ” However, that theory was blown to bits the day of his surgery. Because the ‘good’ feelings I conditioned him to experience were on a much lower level than the ‘negative’ feelings he experienced due to the surgery, it wiped the slate clean in his mind.
Perhaps in Willie’s mind, he was expecting good things to happen when you dropped him off, as this is (I assume) what normally happens. However, when the experience turned bad, Willie’s association with you changed.
This is just an amateur theory and has lots of holes in it but what a great discussion!
Katie says
When we had our dog neutered, I dropped him off at the vet and picked him up the next day. I can’t imagine that any dog would have a good time with this experience, but his seemed a bit rougher than normal (they had to cut into his abdomen and he was uncharacteriscally aggressive towards his handlers when waking up from the anesthesia, which thankfully, he got over pretty quickly). As soon as I got him into the car and turned to look at him, I noticed that he wouldn’t look at me. I called his name and he wouldn’t acknowledge me, and I gently tried to turn his face towards me and he immediately turned it away. He greeted my husband enthusiastically when we got home, but he completely ignored me for a few days after.
trisha says
So many good points being raised here! I love hearing the stories of other animals ignoring their primary caretaker. It (the ignoring) does seem to be directed toward the person who is the primary nurturer/caretaker. By the way, I don’t think Willie had any expectations at all when I dropped him off: I’ve never taken him and left him at a vet clinic. And oh yes, to an earlier comment, I would indeed describe Willie as “hypersensitive.” It doesn’t take much to effect him in anyway. Lots of things to ponder: trust, “letting down in front of ‘mom’ and no others (my friend Meg suggested the same scenario, she said “Welcome to being a mom!” the morning after surgery when he most surprised me). I love the question also about apology… look at the primate literature which is full of “reconciliation behavior…” I should say though that I actually did not try to “apologize” to Willie, I thought that might confuse things even more. I greeted him, attempted to interact and then ignored him if he ignored me, as best I could while taking care of him at least.
Mary Weishan says
My sister’s yorkie mix would refuse to greet her, turn her head away, etc. every time she returned from a trip of at least a few days. She always left her dog at home while a friend familiar to the dog came to stay. It took about a day to bring her around. She was pretty much forced to consider the possibility that the dog held a grudge about her “abandonment.” this was a well- behaved, therapy dog who visited nursing homes. I’ve often felt dogs exist roughly at the same emotional level of about a 2 yr. old human. Two year olds express very non-cerebral emotions, and many can’t yet voice their emotions or even clearly understand what causes their feelings.
Marie says
I love all the stories and thoughts everyone has on this. I think that we still have a lot to learn about dogs.
A signature from an email I received today..hope it makes you all smile as much as it did when I read it:
“I heard a sermon once were the priest said that if he loved god as much as his dog loved him he would surely have a place in heaven.”
Linda says
My Posey holds a grudge. During snowmageddon, our power was out for a week. Posey and her 6 week old puppy had been isolated in the living room under heat lamps. With no power or heat, they were crated together until he grew teeth and she decided he was weaned. ( I brought him in the bed with me, under the covers, and he was a monster. I fully understand her decision) When the power was restored, I moved his pen to a central part of the house, and he was in there by himself. Bodacious, Posey’s sister and former best friend, walked between Posey and the puppy she no longer wanted. Posey lit into Bodacious. Bodacious,who is bigger and stronger, protested, in the process slamming Posey into the chair leg and knocking out her eye ( gruesome). Posey had surgeries and was isolated for months. As soon as I tried to reintegrate the group, Posey makes it clear she has not forgottn that Bodacious hurt her. She has a chip on her shoulder and will light into Bodacious any time they are near each other. All are fine with other dogs, and Bodacious is not the one who starts it. Posey starts to swagger and get an attitude as soon as she sees her sister, and is not the forgiving type. I think dogs can most definitely hold a grudge!
Mary says
My 6 yr old corgi Gracie definitely gets mad at me.
I took her to the vet for a Lyme check. The indignity of a rectal temp, 2 sticks for blood (oh, those stubby legs) and nails clipped = her totally ignoring me for the rest of the day. Wouldn’t look at me or play. I got out her swimming pool, but that didn’t work, either. Even food wouldn’t work. And you know corgis and food.
She was positive (2nd infection), so I don’t know how bad she was feeling before we got there. No temp, but a bad limp.
Backstory: I’m the one who takes her to the vet. Other than routine visits she had emergency surgery in January with 2 follow-up visits for suture/staple removal. My husband works from home with her all day & I work outside the home.
All was well the next day. Short memory?
Corey says
My experiences have led me to believe that dogs will definitely associate people with certain experiences. I would agree with the statement that Willie probably associated you with his current misfortune, and was in the least trying to avoid doing something that would cause an even worse ‘punishment’.
The real question that I’d wonder about is “Did Willie take his association of you inflicting something bad on him, and use that to try to punish you by remaining aloof or disinterested?”
I just moved into a house with two dogs, and after a few days took one with me on my run. Not only did her enjoy the run more than I did, now he will actively follow me around the house, and acts like we are real buds.
If dogs will act friendlier towards you if you do something fun with them, like a nice jog, it doesn’t seem like too great a stretch for them to do the opposite.
Joan says
Many years ago we went away for 3 weeks and our Brittany went off to stay with a friend and her beagle on her land. I was going to pick him up when we came back, but my friend said she was coming in to town and could drop him off. I was expecting a joyous reunion, but he came into the house very quietly went to his couch and wouldn’t look at us or interact. I think he got over it within the day. But I always wondered if he was “mad” at us for leaving him, or if he felt that he had been banished and punished and didn’t know the reason why and was somehow “ashamed” I wonder if it might be the same with Willie. That he felt somehow he had let you down, ie couldn’t work or run or play with you, and felt “ashamed” because it was you, but not with others because he didn’t have that relationship with them to begin with.
Mark says
My theory is that Willie was avoiding you because he didn’t want to risk doing something that would produce an undesirable outcome for him. Your description of Willie “looking longingly up the stairs toward my friend Meg” was pretty funny by the way.
Donna says
Trish, remember that paper Thelma Rowell gave at some long ago ABS meeting, where she said that reconciliation behavior was seen in sheep and cattle as well as primates and canids? Have you ever seen it in your sheep?
As anyone who is married knows, sometimes a big apology does much to promote harmony! (even if it is not really your fault!)
trisha says
Excellent point Donna, (and yes I remember Thelma’s paper!) and if sheep “need” to reconcile, then surely dogs might too. I think the suggestion that Willie associated me with something negative (and we know a simple association like that is possible in planaria, much less dogs) and was avoiding me to avoid it happening again has a lot of merit. It certainly is the most parsimonious of explanations. And… I think Corey asked the bottom line question: Could a dog take an association of something aversive and then consciously decide to positively punish the person responsible by shunning? That’s asking a lot more of their cognitive ability. Argh, I wish we could ask them!
FYI, I’m going to take a few days of down time, just gonna check out for awhile and focus on relaxing. Keep the comments coming, I’ll soak them all up when I bring my head back out of flowers and ice cream and long walks in the woods.
AnneJ says
My mom said my brother did the same thing after she went on a trip and she never figured out why. He was too little to explain his feelings.
Beck says
Although I can’t think of a time Sonar was mad at me (her big brother was sure annoyed with me the day we brought her home as a puppy)- she is a dog who can play out conflicts of interest in such an obvious way that I know there’s more going on in that noggin than just association. For instance, we have “The Cabinet” which is the cabinet that holds Frontline, Heartworm meds, our band-aids, tweezers, first aid stuff, etc. If I open the cabinet door, Sonar’s ears go back. Her eyes widen. If I pull something out, she slinks- slowly- hilarious for the huge dog she is – from the room. If it is Frontline day, I know better than to call her… but as I approach to corral her for the back-of-the-neck squirt… the conflict is so plain to see. She knows I want her to hold still a minute, but she is horrified of the Frontline. I feel so bad that I always promise her peanut butter like a parent with a kiddo at the doctor. She will walk toward me, practically dragging her feet. She has an interesting personality because she’s never blamed me- even for the ACL surgery. I don’t exactly follow all the rules- I made a big deal of taking care of her when she was recovering- not to get her amped up or anything, but I babied the heck out of her. Slept next to her on the couch for 3 weeks, made her chicken every day (she wouldn’t eat her kibble and had to take Tramadol). I’ve been gone for 1 week stretches and even once a 2 week stretch. Yes, I will admit to you wonderful people, I talk to my dog on the phone. I even make a big silly fool of myself when I get home, laying on the floor and having a ridiculous reunion with my slobbery pup. I don’t make a big deal when I leave though, I very brightly tell her I’ll be back, and so far- so good- no issues with suitcases coming out or anything. When both my husband and I have left for 5 days and boarded her- no hard feelings there either. My husband tells me she does seem sad when I’m gone longer than 2 or 3 days. He even caught her howling in the back yard once, alone. That was during the 2 week stretch. Short of causing psychological problems or making her dread me leaving… I make it clear that I missed her a ton too. Anyone else take this approach?
Jennifer Hamilton says
Isn’t there a third possible explanation? That Willie doesn’t want you to see him in his weakened state. And because animals and young children can associate “hiding” with simply a lack of eye contact, that maybe he was hiding from you until he felt more comfortable with his current condition?
Personally, I have not experienced what you describe, so I have no similar experience to judge. At the vet office, however, my dog is always trying to hide from the vet. In the exam office there is no place to hide, so she places her snout/eyes just behind my knees as if she thinks because she can’t see the vet, the vet can’t see her…even though her big, fat body is sticking out four feet from my legs. It’s actually quite funny.
Andreja says
I think “blame” is a bit loaded term, so in case of dogs I prefer to think about it as “assigning responsibility” for something that happened. In other words, who really caused the discomfort?
What I find really fascinating is that we are talking about assigning responsibility to a person who didn’t cause discomfort directly, unlike when an onwer leaves for vacation. If I understood correctly Willie greeted three vets (I assume at least one of those must have been there during the procedure?). And he didn’t act as if he blamed them… or perhaps he felt he should make peace with them? 🙂
My dog did two such indirect assignments of responsibility this year, though he missed the responsible party both times.
First time was when we were playing with baloons. I thought after he burst a few of them he would figure out what was causing the noise and play nicer, but it wasn’t going to happen. So I decided to teach him to play with them with mouth closed, which was a success. However, after two baloons burst under his paws he seemed to decide that I was making the baloons pop and punishing him for playing with me, so he didn’t want to play with me for about ten days. He assigned responsibility for the unpleasant noise to me.
The second time he was chasing after a big dog, the other dog ran down a country road, a car came and my dog ran straight into the car. We had him stitched up and after the stitches came out and we were able to go for walks it became apparent that his reactivity toward big dogs raised exponentialy. No fear of cars, though.
He seems awful lot like my ex-husband – unable to take the responsibility for consequences of his actions, so he has to find someone else to “blame” 🙂
Ellen Pepin says
Ellen Pepin Says:
June 9th, 2011 at 11:52 am
I don
Tori says
Happily, none of my guys ( 2 cats and a dog) have ever snubbed or blamed me. Glad to hear that Willie is on the mend and I hope that Sushi will be too.
Donna says
Bless your heart, Trisha, yes you should just do flowers, ice, cream, and long walks in the woods! If you could ride, too, that would help! I know my animals are my therapy, and sometimes just hanging out with them, and maybe a few beloved humans, is exactlty what you need to decompress and heal a little when things are rough.
I’m sure by now Willie has forgiven you, whatever that has meant, and you can just go forward from here.
Melissa says
I wonder if this is in the same basket as, say, a dog that identifies the one on the other end of the leash as the one that caused the negative event and thus goes for him rather than the leash? I know we don’t like to speak of certain controversial people, but I’m thinking in particular of JonBee from The Dog Whisperer, who gets his leash free of CM and shakes his muzzle off. CM tries to use his foot to hook the leash and bring it far enough away from JB that he can bend down and pick it up without looking like he’s reaching towards JB. JB has got his number, though, and goes for his hand as he reaches for the leash. It struck me that JB grasped that the leash was not a problem until it was in someone’s hand. It looked different to me than, say, a dog that gets a leash correction and redirects on the handler or another dog nearby. Or even a dog that gets punished while focused on someone else and becomes instantly convinced the one they were focused on is the devil. And different to a dog that follows a leash back to the one delivering the punishments and gets them that way.
I guess what I’m getting at is that perhaps some dogs identify a responsible party. I think a lot of dogs don’t, but I’ve met a few devilishly smart dogs who seem to operate on a level up from simple associations. It’s like they don’t just stop at A=B, but then go one step further to identify what caused A. Or who.If they can do that, it doesn’t seem like a big leap to ‘blaming’ that individual.
Rabbits totally ignore people to communicate something. You haven’t ever been properly ignored until you’ve been ignored by a rabbit. They make sure you know you’re being ignored. 😉
Rita57 says
Phuh, I read it all, such an interesting subject and so many suggestions.
I can’t think how to prepare a dog, who’s been with you to the vet many times before, for the fact that THIS time I will be leaving you there by yourself. My guess is that Willie didn’t expect that, was taken by surprise, and was a little leary when he go back home, possibly thinking someting like: “Will she leave me again?”
Kelly Schlesinger says
This is such an interesting subject. I like Julia’s comment that Willie, having been separated, confused, and in pain, just feels disconnected. I have a border collie who has epilepsy and pica, and has had three (count ’em!) surgeries for obstructions. So, he has been to a lot of vet appointments, some when he has felt good, some when he has felt really bad, and some when he has been in la-la land from seizures. He has gone from being a very nervous patient to a very good, if not excellent, one. I am thankful for the wonderful and kind care he receives. But, when he has come home he has at times seemed a little distant from me, his primary caregiver. I have taken it as his being discombobulated from the upset in his usual routine and not feeling good. So, since Willie is such a sensitive guy, I would guess that he felt unmoored. Whether that could also be blame, I’m not sure. I’m glad for you that he has come around because I know how hard it is to feel disconnected. I wish you all the best.
Sherron says
Interesting post! I don’t know what label to put on it, but I have certainly experienced this behavior with my dogs. I’ve had my cocker spaniel for five years, and until very recently, every single time she was groomed, she would ignore me for at least two days. She doesn’t do that anymore, but if I go out of town and board her (at a great place where people love on her all day), she completely ignores me. I tend to think it has to do with being submitted to something that she doesn’t like and wasn’t prepared for. My theory is that she’s now been through the grooming process enough times that it’s beginning to be old-hat for her and so she doesn’t hate me quite so much for the experience. Also, we changed groomers, so it’s possible that she likes the new groomer. (I didn’t like the previous one, so it’s possible that she didn’t, either.)
Chris Carney says
Just a couple of examples of “blame”, or what I really think of as anger in dogs towards the primary person. For some reason, blame seems too composite and cultural an emotion, while just plain anger recurs throughout the animal world, obviously, and certainly most people would agree that dogs can get angry. Some of them just take it a step further and hold it a lot longer, lol.
#1: My first golden, Toffee, was boarded every once in awhile for a weekend. When I would pick her up, she would greet me in a subdued way, but once we were in the car she would turn her back on me, look out the back window on the way home, and all my coaxing would be completely ignored as she walked stiff-legged into the house and ignored me until the next day. She was mad that I’d left her, in my opinion, and was making it clear. I’ll go further–she was punishing me, or at least that sure was what it felt like.
#2: If I han’t seen this with my own eyes, I’d never have believed it. Our family had a great black lab named Shadow, who my dad would take hunting from time to time. My folks were going on vacation and the suitcases were stacked in the hall; you can bet that Shadow was parked there too, his eyes never leaving them. When my folks got ready to go, as my dad picked up the final suitcase, he turned to Shadow and said, “Sorry, buddy, not this time.” Shadow rose, turned his back on my dad, stalked over to the stereo cabinet and LIFTED HIS LEG on it, emitting a long yellow stream at the cabinet’s mid-point, at the same time looking over his shoulder to make sure that everyone–especially my dad–was watching. (We were gasping in amazement is what we were doing, Shadow was a perfect dog. There was absolutely NO doubt he knew exactly what he was doing.) He finished and walked out the back door and down the stairs to the yard without a glance back.
One final comment, about talking to dogs. I have begun this practice just about a year ago, after an animal communicator told me to. Most of the time, my golden Smooch just kind of gazes off into the distance, but I still feel as if I’m being heard (I also try to visualize what I’m saying, a la Temple Grandin.) Twice, though, once when I had to tell her that our older golden Annie had to be euthanized that afternoon because of hemangio, and then again when I told her I would be gone for a weekend to pick up a new puppy, as I reached the important point, she turned her head sharply towards me and stared at me as I talked. I had the firm conviction that she was listening hard and knew what I was saying.
Take care, Patricia, you’ve been through a lot. Be as gentle and loving with yourself as you are with every one else around you. Thanks so much for the forum and topic, it’s been fascinating!
Chris C.
Kat says
I love all the discussion. So often other posters will manage to capture what I was struggling to articulate. Chris Carney managed to capture my objection to the word “blame.” It’s the cultural judgement I associate with the word that makes me reluctant to use it to describe what a dog experiences. I accept the idea that dogs can form a causal relationship between a person and something happening that the dog doesn’t like but I don’t feel comfortable calling it “blame.” Blame to me is too strongly associated with verbal constructs. Pre-verbal infants form causal associations between things that happen to them and the people that do those things. In fact the pediatric practice where I take my children goes so far as to make sure that the doctor and nurse that primarily see the children are not the ones that administer vaccinations so as not to create that sort of association; they don’t want infants to regard their primary pediatrician as the “bad” person who causes pain or to associate that pediatricians nurse with pain.
Kris says
Oh, this couldn’t be more timely for my situation! My dog, Duke, is currently in the UW Vet School hospital recovering from a terrible MRSIG infection that nearly took his life. His first hospitalization was Memorial Day weekend, then he took a turn for the worse and was readmitted last weekend. The most recent stay has been an 8-day stretch.
I visit him every night and he is never all that enthused that I’m there. I keep telling myself it’s the meds, but something else tells me, maybe not. Not wanting to be near me in a setting like that is HIGHLY unusual for Duke. He has a lot of behavioral issues, not the least of which is anxiety (better thanks to clomipramine and training) and tremendous insecurity in strange settings. For Duke, the most stressful of stressful stuff is being separated from me in a place he is not VERY familiar and comfortable with. He’s my Velcro dog when we’re not at home…clinging to me as if I supply his oxygen.
Usually, when we go to UW VMTH for routine visits, Duke does his typical clinging and panics if I get so much as an inch out of reach. Not so with this recent hospitalization. When I visit, he refuses to look at me. He won’t come near me. He will go across the room and lie down on cold tile rather than lie down next to me on a foam pad. He does absolutely NONE of his typical “gotta be next to mom” stuff at all. For the most part, when I’m there, he just ignores me. (It breaks my heart…I miss him terribly after a week without him and his “shunning” really stinks!)
I have wondered exactly the same thing: Is he resentful with me for leaving him there? What is going through his head? Does he think that the hospital is his new home? I’m not a behavioral expert, just someone who loves my dog with all my heart and soul, but this topic and the responses are fascinating!
I will be very curious to see how Duke reacts to me when we get home. I’m a bit concerned, actually, because I would be devastated if this had any sort of lasting effect on our relationship. Duke has such a difficult time trusting strangers…no idea why. He has never (to my knowledge) been hurt by a stranger, although I don’t know what his formative first 4 months of life involved (I adopted him from DCHS at 4 mos). My opinion is that Duke is just wired anxious and insecure. He’s also part Great Dane, so that explains some of these issues. I am his sole source of security and he trusts me completely, but others? No as much. It took a full 9 months of working with awesome daycare staff before he finally began to trust them and not freak out when I left. Odd thing is, he has no SA whatsoever at home. I have been the centere of Duke’s existence for 8+ years, and now, suddenly, he wants nothing to do with me. It’s very unfamiliar territory with Duke! What if he no longer trusts me after this hospitalization? I hope and pray that doesn’t happen, and truly don’t think it will.
Anyway, best of luck to Willie for a quick recovery! Tell Courtney at the vet school that Duke says hi. 🙂 We did rehab with her on both of Duke’s knees post-TPLO and she has visited Duke every day he was in the hospital. She is a gem. They all are at that hospital.
The lambs are gorgeous–I just want to nuzzle up and rub my face in the fuzz!
Sarah says
I do think dogs are capable of blame, and have a funny story about it (well, I think it’s funny)
Some years ago, I left my Staffordshire Bull Terrier bitch, then very young, in a boarding kennel for a few days. I think it was the first time I did so. She was in season, and I was traveling to an agility trial with my older dog, a neutered male.
My bitch could be a bit sensitive, so I thought she wouldn’t eat there, but they told me she did. They seemed to like her, and I have no reason to believe she was treated with anything but kindness, but of course she was used to being a spoiled housepet at home. When I arrived to pick her up, we went in back to get her out of the kennel; she was SO excited, came racing out, tail wagging, then suddenly looked at me, and visibly ‘said’ “Oh, I’m mad at you.”
At which point she suddenly shut down and refused to look at me. I put her leash on, and she plodded to my vehicle, sat in the passenger seat, and stared at the door, refusing to look in my direction.
We got home, I brought her in the house, and the older dog was very happy to see both of us, it was obviously a big relief to him that we reunited the “pack”. But the bitch blamed HIM too. He had gone with us when I dropped her off at the kennel, and she clearly felt he must have been in on it. She refused all his overtures, and wouldn’t look at him either.
I think the other dog was forgiven by the next day, but it was at least a couple days before she decided to forgive me. And she never did that again, though I did have to board her another time or 2, she apparently decided it wasn’t that bad. (she got a lot less sensitive as she matured, and of course, when she wasn’t hormonal) I really can’t see any reason for her behavior other than blame, though. She certainly wasn’t reacting to my mood, I was first just happy to see her again, then very amused at her behavior. And most certainly couldn’t have been reacting to the other dog’s mood, that would require an even bigger anthropomorphic stretch. Plus, the change from “excited” to “mad” was very visible. If she could have stuck her lip out, she would have.
I don’t think dogs can hold a grudge indefinitely though, fortunately.
Susan says
My friend had a Keeshond that one of her students rescued from a home where the dog had been living in the cellar for 11 years, getting food and water but nothing more. This dog was very bonded to my friend, and was OK with visitors, though not that interested in them. Then one day her first owner drove up to the farm, and the dog walked out the door and saw the person. She turned her back and walked stiffly back into the house without looking back. My own first dog, a mixed breed, used to do something along the lines of shunning me, but it was a little bit different than what’s been discussed here. When I was working at a stable and cleaning stalls, he would always sit in the stall the OTHER stable hand was cleaning and follow them from stall to stall while I might have been in the very next stall. He did this at several barns, and when I worked at a summer camp, he adopted the camp nurse and always wanted to be with her in the infirmary. It was very, very upsetting to me.
Carolyn Kinsler says
Quote from Trish
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Pamela says
I read recently that studies are showing that dogs and some other animals express what is believed to be a sense of “fairness.” If dogs can judge fair and unfair treatment, associating a person with an unpleasant event sounds perfectly rational to me.
Jackie says
I do think dogs blame…every time I leave my dog at the kennel, I get the “silent treatment” when I return to get her. She is very excited to get out and in the car, but she won’t look at me. She usually won’t look at me for at least a day.
Lacey H says
I think Steve Shaffer’s comment is right on. Dogs can blame and feel gratitude. As social beings, this is essential to their welfare.
On the other hand, some dogs are better than others at figuring out who may be appropriate to blame. As are some people!
em says
Along the lines of ‘appropriate’ blame, an Otis-story just came to mind…Otis was playing at the park with one of his best friends, a young female wolfhound. She initially was a bit shy about wanting to roughhouse and wrestle, so Otis did his trademark move…he’d slap her with a paw and then immediately flop onto his back, encouraging her to tolerate a more intense style of play by allowing her to have the upper hand. She dove for him, as usual, but this time she slipped a bit and came down awkwardly on the grass, her leg folded beneath her. She was ok, but it must have hurt something fierce, because she SCREAMED (beyond a yelp…she was a vocal dog even at normal times).
Otis leapt to his feet so fast I didn’t even see the motion. The second he was upright, he snapped his gaze to my face, then to the wolfhound’s owner, then one by one to the faces of all the half dozen or so people standing around the dogs. His eye contact was intense, very serious, and uncharacteristicly direct. His posture was very assertive (chest puffed, head high, ears forward). Once he checked everyone nearby (less than two seconds had elapsed, probably) he caught sight of a park worker driving past in a golf cart, nearly eighty yards away. He let out one really big woof and charged for the cart. We all called him back immediately, and he did stop and return after maybe thirty yards or so (the park worker never noticed, since he was already far and moving fast), head and tail still high. He wuffled Maggie wolfhound for a long moment before winding down.
Now this is waay out on the anthropomorphic highway, but at the time it seemed crystal clear to me. When Maggie wolfhound screamed, Otis knew HE hadn’t done it, he was already on his back. He looked everyone nearby right in the face (unusual for him) to assess them, but dismissed them as suspects (why, I don’t know..because they were known and trusted, or because they looked ‘innocent’?) . When he saw the cart, though, a familiar but not necessarily trusted object, moving fast, I thought at the time, and still think, that he assigned blame to that cart for hurting Maggie and charged out to drive it away. He had never shown any interest in the carts before and (thankfully) never did afterwards.
Now it could be simply that he saw the cart as threatening when his companion was weakened, but I don’t’ think so. The cart was far away, not moving toward us, and he’d never showed any discomfort with them before. There was also the look, directly into my eyes, and then the eyes of everyone there. It’s so hard to say exactly what I saw that made me so certain, but the weight of his assessment was practically a tangible thing as he snapped his gaze from one face to another.
Whatever the motive, or whatever you call it, his tendency to assign responsibility/react defensively when things go wrong is part of life with Otis. The incident with Maggie wolfhound shook me up a little…what if the cart had been closer? What if a stranger had been walking by just at that moment? Otis has (knock wood) never been aggressive or tried hurt anyone, man or beast, but he has a strong guardian streak and the need to be vigilant about it is never entirely out of my mind.
Gary says
I’m not too keen on the idea that dogs can assign blame or hold a grudge, although I’m not sure how to test the hypothesis. But how about this alternative: Maybe Willie avoided you (and not others) for a couple of days as his way of letting you know that he didn’t feel good enough for you to making any demands of him? “If I don’t look at her than she won’t ask me to do anything. All those other folks, they’re fine because they never ask me to do stuff. But Trisha counts on me and I just can’t handle it right now, so I’m going to stay out of her way and hope she ignores me.”
Donna says
’em, that is fascinating! The way you describe it, I am convinced your perception is accurate about Otis’s behavior.
Thanks for a very interesting report!
Louise Kerr says
Sorry I don’t have time to check all the comments to see if this has been mentioned…. but……. is it possible Willie was just not interested in talking to you as a result of his surgery. I know whenever I have anything major done that I go into myself and don’t interact with people while I deal with what I need to deal with to heal myself.
Soraya says
I remember reading somewhere that dogs will “shun” a dog who violates the rules of dog-dog play (e.g., dog play bows and gives play signals but then bites, etc). I wonder, does this mean that dogs see social isolation as a form of punishment or way to communicate their anger/displeasure at the violation of play-norms? (Or, is refusal to play with the rule-breaking dog just a way to avoid getting bitten again?)
Is it possible that dogs recognize and react to a perceived “unfairness”? Or, more simply, dog expects (based on previous experience) certain behavior from the human or other dog, and then reacts to the expectation not being met?
Jana Rade says
Having gone through enough surgeries and medical disasters with Jasmine myself, and being as impressionable as I am, I’d have to say that it had nothing to do with picking up on your anxiety. If that was the case, Jasmine would have likely opted moving out from our house by now!
That’s not to say that all dogs have the same reactions to everything. But I really couldn’t say that I think that picking up on your anxiety and worries would cause such behavior, not judging by my experience – and trust me, Jasmine has gone through enough – 8 surgeries and 2 near death experiences.
We you being blamed? Well, given the number of psychological tricks Jasmine has in her arsenal, I’d have to say that it can be possibility. Just think how many dogs react to the word v-e-t. So it well could have been some unpleasant association.
Kat says
Soraya, has I think, hit on something important. I’ve seen a group of dogs shun another one that wouldn’t play nicely. A nasty little terrier mix at the dog park would not inhibit his bite and liked to cannonball into other dogs to knock them down. Useless owner did nothing to redirect or restrain the terrier mix. Whenever the terrier X would come near the other dogs that were playing all play would stop and they would turn away from terrier. They were very ostentatiously ignoring the terrier; even the clueless humans could see what was happening and were making comments like “they really don’t want to play with him do they.” and “wow, he’s not popular.” The more clued in humans were commenting “if you can’t play nice we won’t play with you.” and “maybe if no one will play with you you’ll get the message and learn to play nicely.” After awhile the terrier X got frustrated and decided to go after Ranger who was standing there surveying his domain (at least that’s what I call the standing on a high point and watching the action in a relaxed posture of interest). Ranger knocked the terrier over and pinned him to the ground with one giant paw on the rib cage. Interestingly Ranger never looked directly at his prisoner at any point he continued looking around the park but if the terrier tried to squirm and get away Ranger leaned a little more weight on him. Once the terrier had relaxed and lain limp for long enough Ranger let him up and after that a warning from Ranger (intense look, bark, walking toward him) was enough to back the terrier off. Unfortunately, his idiot owner started bringing him at a time Ranger wouldn’t be at the park and the terrier x bit a Shih zhu badly enough to require stitches and got banned from all parks in the county.
I can easily imagine Willie feeling like you had violated the social covenant between the two of you and shunning you to make that clear to you. After all this time contrary to previous experience you took him to the vet hospital and abandoned him there. I wonder if you would have been shunned if you’d been with him right up until he was out and were waiting when he woke up.
liz says
I think this is a fascinating topic. Though despite trying to think it through, I’m struggling with a few aspects: if dogs can consciously punish another after linking him/her to an aversive situation, then are the owners whose dogs have accidents in the house after being left alone correct in feeling the dogs did it out of spite? Is blame an emotion linked to fear or anger, or separate altogether? What are the training implications if our dogs have blamed us for something? What should we do? Lots of food for thought, yay!
Pat says
I have a story of one of our dogs who always ‘shunned’ me (the primary caregiver) whenever my husband left on a trip. My husband travels 3 or 4 times a year and often for 3 weeks or so at a time. With this particular dog he had been the primary caregiver for the first 3 months we had her as a pup and he was always her favorite human. When she got to be around 5 years old she started displaying this behavior, always after he had been gone for about a week and continuting until he came home. Whenever I would get dressed for work in the morning she would go into our bedroom, jump on the bed and turn her back towards me and refuse to look at me or acknowledge me any way. I had to get her Kong filled with a treat to get her into the room she and the other dogs stayed in while I was at work. As soon as my husband got home the behavior stopped. As soon as he left again it started up, always after about a week. When I left on business trips she did this occaisonally to him, not predictably, but I wasn’t usually gone for such long time periods. I always felt she “blamed” me for him being gone or my having to go to work, anthropromorphic, yes. Concious thought? Absolutely, especially if you knew this dog. She was incredibly intelligent and very expressive in face and body language.
suenosdeuomi says
Fascinating, it made me ponder since last night, I had to sleep on it.
Blame is too close for my comfort to shame, which is too charged culturally for my taste. Is it not normal to want to turn away from what is perceived as unpleasant? Is it not part of relating that at times we, humans and dogs, do not like what the other does. Should this not simply be part of relating, be embraced as another’s reality, something we do not have to change, we do not have to force or cajole them out, be it dog or human. To allow another to have their experience is a great gift. To not hold it against, but be open for things to change, as when the dog or cat is ready to make contact to be simply available and welcoming seems to me desirable.
I remember very well being a toddler and being very upset with my mom for leaving me with an aunt and making me wait what seemed an eternity. By the time she came to pick me up I was furious with her, but of course did not have the means to express myself true to my feelings. Why should dogs or cats feel different?
My return home was delayed due to a head on collision. My sitter never got my message, never checked back, but left not to be reached. My cat was home alone for 5 days. When I finally returned he gave me the cold shoulder. No big mystery. It took him maybe 2 days to come around, it had been a longer absence.
My current pretty black kitty makes it a habit to close his eyes when I scold him, seemingly making it clear that he does not want to hear my tirade (I seem to have a juvenile delinquent that refuses to come home on time, but prefers hanging out all night, not adverse to a roll in the hay, or rather sand.)
I so appreciate this forum, it is what I have been looking for for some time now, thanks to everyone that participates.
Betty says
This is fascinating reading! I’ve just today found your site and really enjoying everyones responses. I’ve had the pleasure of 6 different dogs company over my lifetime as well as several cats. I also had a horse for many years. I believe they ALL have at some point shown behaviors that would appear to be what we call blame. Usually related to either being left alone or to my infliction of some sort of terrible pain on them ie. vet care or medical treatment. I’m not entirely sure as some of you have noted that blame is exactly the term we should use but they definitely associate the inflictor of negative experiances with those experiances and react to avoid or show displeasure with it in some way. I’m pretty convinced that dogs and other mammals at least are far more mentally developed than we sometimes think. And I do believe they can reason to a point. I feel I had this confirmed by one of my dogs, a rescued Dalmatian, who at 5 months of age found a way to make it very clear to me that he wanted a chair moved so that he could lie in the sunspot that was on the floor in that precise location. This wasn’t chance, he clearly identified what he wanted and found a way to communicate it to me. I’m looking forward to the continuing enjoyment of this site..and thanks Tricia for all you do for our beloved companions.
Sarah Jane says
I used to watch a tv show about a zoo. I remember one episode about a wolf pack at the zoo during which the Alpha female wolf had to go to the vet for an extended period. The wolf keeper was extemely concerned that the female get back to the pack as soon as possible, or she would never be accepted as part of the pack again and would have to live alone the rest of her life or be killed by the pack. When she was reintroduced into the pack, even though she had once been the Alpha, she wouldn’t look at them or interact with them except for a pup who had no status whatsoever. She did respond to the keepers as she had before. Over time, she reestablished herself back into the pack, but was never again the Alpha female. She had been replaced.
I believe it is possible that Willie (your wolf-at-heart) felt he had to ignore you in order to ascertain where his place in the pack was now; he had to discover if he had lost status, if he had been replaced and where he fit. In a wolf pack, to make assumptions and move too quickly can cost a wolf his or her life.
To look at the baser motives of our dogs, as opposed to anthropomorphizing them, can sometimes teach us much about the pack mentality from which they came.
Toby Jon says
I just had to comment on the beautiful photo of the iris..Gorgeous!
Sabrina says
Hello,
For witnessing different behaviours from my dog after picking her up from the vet, daycare or a week at my parents’ place, I would like to suggest a #3 – Ignoring in order to signal the need to rest/recover.
Just like they do at the dog park when they are tired to play and want to rest a bit… they ignore the dog they were playing with just seconds ago to say : “Back off a little, I need to rest”. My dog did “ignore” me after spending a week at my parents’ farm and she “ignores” me after an all day playing at daycare, but didn’t after surgery. She was her usual excited self. Note that the vet asked me to pick her up only after she was fully rested (security measure). She was also kept in a crate the whole time she was at the vet and she healed quickly.
According to the reason #2 you provided, you would think the surgery experience would want her to make me feel bad for bringing her there, and be appreciative for letting her play all day at daycare instead of staying home alone (my pooch loves to play, all the time, with anybody)…
In my opinion, your dog was just recovering from surgery (and maybe stress related to being at the vet/ or away from home and family). He greeted strangers because that’s what polite dogs do, no matter how exhausted they are. When you were trying to interact with him, he was turning away to say : “Not now mom, I’m sleepy, I’m hurt and I don’t feel so well. Just let me rest.” That’s it.
I don’t think dog tell themselves the reason they are suffering is because mom/dad left them alone with strange people who hurt them. Rather, they realise they lost their family/home and have to integrate a new set of people that they are not familiar with and that situation burns a bunch of their energy – on top of the surgery. When mom/dad comes back to pick them up, they’re relieved they found their family again and go in relax and recover mode.
There’s no need to torture yourself over this. You’re a good mom 🙂
Vikki says
I picked my dog up from her surgery this afternoon & she completely ignored me. It was upsetting because I had been worrying all day that she was ok & was so thrilled to see her and yet she wouldn’t come to me at all and went straight past me to my partner. The behaviour continued when we got home and she still won’t look at me or lie next to me hours later, yet with my partner she is acting as normal and wanting cuddles. I am her main care-giver so it’s hard not to feel upset & rejected! I am convinced she blames me for her surgery & current discomfort, like “how could you let this happen to me?!” – so I just had to do an internet search and see if anyone else has experienced this. I was so glad to read that the same thing had happened to you too and it isn’t just me. Hopefully she will forgive me in a few days… 🙂
Mike says
This is my situation with our new chihahua to a tee. We adopted her and immediately she loved me, loved my family and we loved her. 10 days later into this love-fest and she re double fractures her front left leg, by jumping off the couch of all things. It was an older injury that hadnt healed well. Long story short, amputation. She hates me now. I was alone with her when she broke her leg, waited with her wimpering in my lap when she was in vets waiting room, picked her up there until surgery could occur, dropped her off for that and then picked her up after and I’ve given her every dose of medicine. Now she HATES me, from the moment I picked her up post-surgery. It’s been a week. At worst she acts like she’s being scalded when I go to touch her, yelping and snapping sometimes, mild terror shakes at the best. It’s breaking my heart, but I think she now has a very strong association with me and terrible pain. She jumps right into my families arms, strangers arms, both men, women and kids. I hope this passes and I’ve been feeding her sausage and tender meats in the hopes of forgiveness.
Benjamin Wakeman says
Great piece!
Since my dog has had surgery he is hiding from me. I know my pal and he’s definitely angry at me, if I dare say that, and I really feel he feels I took him to a place where they hurt him and he can’t understand why I would do such a thing.
I know this may seem very silly to some but I don’t think he understands why he had to go through all this discomfort and pain.
I don’t think I’m showing signs of anxiety, certainly no more than normal levels one would harbour. Before and after I’ve done my best to convey a positive, and reassuring attitude.
He likes to go under the bed when he’s sick, it’s his place but this time when I come to say hello and talk in a soothing voice, he moves as far away as possible from where I am and continues to do so if I move. I don’t think he’s in pain, as he’s very good at showing that.
It’s clear to most dog owners that regardless how limited their means are of doing so, they communicate with humans and know how to convey an emotion. When they’re happy, sad, in pain, hungry, excited, playful… So I don’t see why anger or resentment should be excluded.
Basic human emotions are: Interest, curiosity, attraction, desire, admiration, surprise, amusement, hope, gratitude, thankfulness, joy, elation, triumph, jubilation, relief, pride in achievement, self-confidence, sociability and generosity for the positive ones and for the negative ones: alarm, panic, aversion, disgust, revulsion, indifference, familiarity, habituation, fear, anger, rage, sorrow, grief, frustration, disappointment, embarrassment, shame, guilt, remorse, avarice, greed, miserliness, envy and jealousy. Phew!
Now I agree that I will indeed project some of these emotions on to him. But surely most dog owners will agree that a lot of the words on the list are very relevant to the relationship and understanding we have with are furry friends.
Of course many will argue that these are all human emotions but I think maybe this discourse is getting old. It’s outdated and arrogant. Very human.
I believe projecting certain emotions onto your pet can often be harmful, and to all parties. It’s a fact, and it can be dangerous to anthropomorphise in a way that is selfish. When the owner only wants to think ‘human’ and not ‘dog’. They make so many efforts to understand us, it’s only normal we do the same.
I will come back and post updates. I would have loved to know If Mike’s Chihuahua ‘s behaviour has gotten back to normal!
Benjamin Wakeman says
I forgot to add love and hate to the list of emotions. Only the two main ones!
I don’t think my dog has any hate in him. When he barks, even aggressively he just thinks he’s doing his job. Not that I need it!
On another note: can anyone tell me how to explain to my companion that things cost money?
He likes this sandwich shop I go to and is always a bit miffed if we walk by without going in. ; )
I’ve tried explaining it to him. I made graphs, and I’m working now on ‘olfactic’ charts. Hopefully he’ll have a sniff when he’s fed up with shunning me!
Rachel says
I have a Miniature Schnauzer that is going to be neutered in 2 weeks. He is a snuggle bug and gets along with all people and children and not aggressive at all. He is very vocal (excited) with some other dogs and no reactive with others.
He has an umbilical hernia that needs to be fixed so he is going to be fixed at 8 months so he is only put under anesthesia once.
I have a good relationship with him. I would go over to the breeders and do post natal stimulation exercises with him from the day he was born so by the time I took him home at 8 1/2 weeks is was veery relaxing. He slept through the night from the beginning and he was easy to potty train.
My concern it that I will lose our close relationship when I bring him home from the vet after this traumatic experience. We will get over it no matter what the reaction, but if there is a way that I can prepare myself mentally so I provide the best possible environment for him when I pick him up, I would like to do that.
Any suggestions that folks might have, I would appreciate greatly.
If anyone has any suggestion
Trisha says
Rachel: I wouldn’t worry for a moment about your relationship changing with your snuggle bug. I’ve never heard of that happening after a spay or neuter. I’d say what is most important when your dog returns is to be calm and quiet and confidant that all will be well. If you are nervous, or apologetic, he might sense that something is terribly wrong and respond by becoming nervous himself. Remember that one of the reasons we love dogs so much is that they don’t think like us!
Carrie says
I am experiencing a monumental rejection by my adored little dog, Missy, following her speying operation during which she also had the long problematic rear claws removed and was microchipped. She is a rescue dog, Jack Russell and maybe some Border Collie, a total little joy, full of enthusiasm for everything and everyone and now aged somewhere between 6 and 7 months. She is very much my dog, and we have been inseparable since she came to us. Where I am, she is; I took her to puppy training, feed her, walk her, play with her, cuddle her, and she has brought me immeasurable happiness. So the current state of affairs is unbelievably painful for me; following her surgery she has become withdrawn, listless and quiet. She is wearing the head cone, but in spite of that managed to chew off her foot bandage. So, in addition to me taking her for the original procedure, I have had to return twice to the vet for more intrusive and uncomfortable stuff, (necessary though it was of course). For me the most painful aspect of this is her complete, total and utter rejection of me. She is turning her back on me, averting her eyes, won’t come when called, moves away physically when I try to stroke or cuddle her. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that she is hurt and sad and holds me responsible for putting her in this situation. I am continuing to tell her how much I love her, trying to maintain some contact even though she wants to move away, and just generally stay near, but it is so sad to see her like this; any advice would be most gratefully received.
Lisa says
Omg I’m so glad to have found this article. Everything you said about your dogs behaviour was EXACTLY what happened to me too. I also am the primary caretaker of my boy and we are nearly never apart. Indeed the night he had to stay overnight after surgery on his soft palate was the first night in 9 years we have ever been apart. I was upset all night but in the morning I was so looking forward to picking him up and was no longer upset when I arrived there. However when they brought him out he looked straight past me and wouldn’t look at me at all. He wagged his tail walking up to strangers but didn’t want to know me. We stopped at park on the way home for toilet and he wouldn’t listen to me at all. He walked around acting like I wasn’t even there. Then when I took him home to bed and lay down with him he literally got up and went to the opposite end of the bed facing away from me! It was horrible. It surely has to be that they hate us because I was happy to see him and no longer anxious. I wish we could find out the answer. Thanks for your story it was great.
La J says
So glad to have found this. My dog had surgery for a torn ligament (he rushed down the stairs, thinking he could fly, and by the time he got down he was holding one leg up). After surgery, i carried him home, and let him sleep, gave him the meds, etc. Already once he was aware he was staring at me, growling if I reached to pet him, and after 4 days he is still snapping at me if I reach to pet him.
What is strange is that I had visitors whom he knows enough, and he was wagging his tail, letting them pet him, following them as he used to follow me. His behavior is clearly towards me. A sort of hateful stare accompanies it. I can only say he associates me with the pain, and blames me for it.
This is a bichon, enormously attached to me, following me even to the bathroom, coming to me the second I say the first sound of his name, or even if I call anyone else human or animal in the family. Perfectly gentle and devoted. So the behavior is disturbing.
I just hope he will return to normal — I miss my best friend.
Thank you for your article.
Anna says
Thank goodness I found this link. I was so upset this evening having just picked up my friend and housemate’s Welsh terrier from the vets, after a mastectomy following her spaying last week. (Housemate just acquired dog, adores it, but has had to go away to care for her mum in her last days. I’ve now been in sole charge for 3 months and it feels a rather charged situation! ) Anyway, the adorable little doglet was recovering well from last weeks op. But on collecting her today, she came out of vets room, saw me, paused, almost moved towards me, then turned her back, sat down, ignored me, just looking at the vet. It was very clear message. Vet said he’d before never seen anyone told so clearly they are in the bad books! She’s quite doped up, and poor wee thing quite uncomfortable despite the drugs. I so hope she recovers swiftly under my (I have to say) very loving care but also that doesn’t continue to blame(?) me for to long! I suppose in one way it’s good that I am the blame object rather than my friend, her real owner, for whom the dog is so vitally important. But I’ve got a long stint in front of me looking after this little creature, and keeping her well and safe for my pals return. We’ve got to get on! Aargh!
Anna says
Although my dog never blames me, he does seem to blame others. I took a bone away from him after he growled at my nephew when he was a puppy, and he shunned or growled at my nephew until I gave him the bone back, essentially blaming my nephew for it getting taken away. When I just took it away from him momentarily each time he growled, he did much better and soon was fine having my nephew pet him while chewing his bone. He also seems to blame my cat if he gets kicked out of bed at nighttime. I had my cat first, so she sleeps with me, and I sometimes let him sleep with me as a treat if he’s good and doesn’t bother the cat. If he does, I put him back in his kennel for the night. Last night, he lasted most of the way through, but he seemed to blame the cat for his exile, twisting around and growling at her as we left the room. In contrast, he usually is perfectly quiet and will even let the cat walk over him without a peep in order to stay in my bed. The reason I moved him to his kennel last night was because he was having trouble sleeping and kept barking at slight noises.
Francine says
I hav a 4 and a half Mautipoo. Einstein,Half Maltese and French poodle. My daughter and myself have been busy trying to put up a few e-commerce stores. And my daughter has been sick I just got well from Sinusitis. Einstein takes off barking jumps off our sofa and heads to the front door barking constantly until we assure her it’s only a truck, lady next door, etc. the barking has been really bothering my daughter more since she has Lupus and a bad cold. My granddaughter who we see every two weeks spends the weekend with us.
Two weeks ago my daughter asked her father and others who also have a dog if Einstein could stay with them until my Granddaughter comes back down to visit on Thanksgiving. I als have a cat named Oreo who has been with us since 4 weeks old who Einstein lives like the rest of us,and the family who she is visiting. I couldn’t wait until I saw her it seemed to me that months went by not weeks.
As soon as I went to the door my granddaughter and Einstein walked right by me. Einstein did not greet anyone. My heart was broken. I hugged her, petting her and talking to her, not much of a response.
I am the main caretaker of her. I have three scenario’s . 1. My daughter and I were arguing about her barking and that upset her, mainly the past week. 2. We always pet her even after barking that everything is ok. Maybe she is upset because we were upset with her. And 3. Having my granddaughter take her away from home for a visit.
It took Einstein about two hours to be her usual self. I had to go out to take the trash out and when t came in she was all excited wagging tail and so happy to see me. Only gone a few minutes, yet, I was away from him for two weeks and not a sign of happiness Did anyone get. It’s not like we left her with strangers, plus she had another dog to play with. He does love all people and any other animal. Francine