I did a seminar last week in Pittsburgh for the Westmoreland County Obedience Training Club, and worked with 3 dogs who had “dog-dog reactivity” problems. In choosing those dogs I had a problem myself: I had to choose from over 12 people who offered their dogs for demo’s. Right now I’m working on choosing dogs for a similar seminar in DENVER next weekend and have the same problem: too many dogs, too little time.
And so I thought it might be useful to use one of Pittsburgh’s dogs as a case study in the blog, and her owner, Jan, graciously agreed. I should say here that I don’t have the depth of information I would if they were my clients, but here are the basics:
Ceilidh (pronounced Cay-lee) is a 6.5 year old female Border Collie who fixates on other dogs with what I call the “locked and loaded” look of a stalking predator. She does not bark or vocalize in any way, just does her “silent runner” routine when she sees dogs she doesn’t know. She does NOT do this to unfamiliar BCs, only to other breeds. This is not her version of playing or herding, if they get too close she will lunge toward them aggressively.
Ceilidh can be pushy and demanding around the other dogs at home, (we agreed she’s the type of dog who reminds us why the term “bitch” is a dirty word), but is soft and sugar-sweet to people. Without knowing her better, I’d describe her as both frightened of other dogs and desperately desiring to control them. I call dogs like this “alphawannabees.” To add to the story, Jan told me at the seminar, Ceilidh has suffered from seizures all her life. Jan told me after we worked on stage that she was aware they’ve let Ceilidh “get away” with a lot because of her seizures. Jan has very realistic goals for Ceilidh; she’d just like to be able to walk her down the street or go to the vet clinic without it being a stress test for her.
I had chosen Ceilidh as the dog I would use to illustrate using an “on-cue” positive reinforcement for dogs who are dog-dog reactive. In my dog-dog reactive seminars I summarize and illustrate the four most commonly used methods that I believe are effective and humane: 1) Teaching “Watch” or “Look at Me,” 2) Teaching “Where’s the Dog?” or “Look at That” (Leslie McDevitt), 3) BAT or Behavior Adjustment Training (Griesha Stewart) and “Abandonment Training” (Trish King). Ironically, although #1 and #2 seem to be opposites, functionally they tend to get the same behavioral response: see dog, look at owner, get treat. However, in my experience, which one you choose depends a lot on the dog. I often suggest using them both, as I did with Willie, but you have to decide which one to use first.
So, which methods to use with Ceilidh? First off, I wasn’t inclined to teach her “Where’s the Dog” or LAT, because in typical Border collie fashion, once she’d locked onto a dog she had a hard time looking away. I like to use “Where’s the Dog” with dogs who are truly afraid of just the sight of other dogs, and who either initially bark and lunge, or avoid looking altogether. Ceilidh did not need any encouragement to look at other dogs, (she says, making a profound understatement) and once locked on was stuck in typical BC fashion, barely able turn her own head away. For the same reason I wouldn’t start with BAT, in which you bring the dog to the beginning of threshold and then wait for them to offer some behavior that is a sign of relaxation — a head turn? looking down, opening their mouth? It’s a great method and we used it with the next dog to great advantage, but we could have waited for an hour for Ceidilh to turn her head away to no avail, so we didn’t want to start with that.
We worked on “Look” (at her person, I often use the word “Watch”), which she’d already been taught but wouldn’t do if she saw another dog. First we reinforced Look with great treats with no dogs around and she did very well. Then a mellow greyhound entered the room, & Ceilidh predictably locked on and froze. When I asked for a Look she didn’t twitch an ear. I put the treat to her nose and OH! that got her attention and I lured her head around, then gave her the treat. We worked for about 10 minutes on this on stage with variable success. She did begin turning her head when I said Look! after looking at another dog, and showed some good improvement, but neither was it one of those AMAZING!!! moments in which a dog turns around on stage within a few minutes (that was the next dog who I’ll talk about in the next case study!). I liked enough of what I saw to advise this:
1) Ceidilh needs lots and lots more “foundation” training on Look before using it successfully around unfamiliar dogs. I suggested that Jan spend a solid month working on Look during distractions of increasing intensity. Eeeps, that seems like a lot, but C had been fixating on dogs for years, and combined with a somewhat, uh, ‘set-in-her-ways’ nature and her BC propensity to stare, this is just not a ‘quick fix’ dog. She needs to master this signal in other contexts first before we use it on dogs. Once she does use it with dogs, start with the dogs a long way away (farther than we could manage at the seminar).
2) “Look” should also include backing away from the other dog, something I realized I began doing unconsciously when working with dogs like Ceilidh. So not only does she get a food reinforcement for looking away from the other dog, she gets to increase the distance between them, which is one of the things she wants. It’s easy, say Look or Watch and as she turns her head toward you just back up a step and then release the treat when she’s moved toward you a step or two.
3) The goal here is NOT having to say watch to her every time she sees another dog, it’s working toward an AutoWatch, in which she sees another dog and turns toward Jan of her own initiative. When that happens, JACKPOT! 15 treats in a row.
4) Once she has another behavior in her repertoire beside a fixated stare, I’d love to give her the chance to offer a different behavior, mark it with a clicker, run AWAY from the other dog about 10-15 feet and then give her a treat (she’s not very toy motivated, otherwise I might suggest a toy). This is basically the first steps of BAT, and once you get further with her it should be a very useful addition to the tool box.
5) Gradually she should be allowed closer and closer, always working her just sub-threshold, trying to keep her able to offer another behavior that you could reinforce by moving away. If she goes over threshold and begins to fixate, I’d try a Look immediately and reinforce even a head turn toward you. If she gets stuck, I’d do an EMERGENCY U-TURN (described in Feisty Fido, as are AutoWatch and Where’s the Dog?) and get her out of it. Then try asking for the appropriate behavior when you are further away.
6) One important addition to her treatment plan relates to her home environment. It turns out there are neighbor dogs who drive her batty, and if she goes out in the backyard and they are out they bark like crazy at her and she, not surprisingly, becomes reactive back. Hard as it is, it’s going to be almost impossible to turn her behavior around on walks or at dog shows if this doesn’t get handled, granted that’s not easy to do. But management and prevention are going to be the name of the game here.
My guess is that it’s going to take some serious work for a good six months before she gets herself turned around, and I doubt I’d ever take her to a dog park, but I think that she can be much, much more comfortable around other dogs and much, much more fun to take out and about.
She’s such a lovely dog in so many ways, the kind the goes all gooey and smushy when you meet her, and I wish her and her mom all the luck in the world. I’d sure she’d love some encouragement from those of you who, like me, have had reactive dogs who showed huge improvement after using some of these methods.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: Willie is starting month 3 of re-hab, yeah! His shoulder has had some ups and downs, but they are to be expected and he’s doing well this week. I have to admit we haven’t managed 3 sessions a day this week though, I’ve been gone too much. But we can do lots of good work this week until I have to leave for Denver. I took him to a friend’s, first time since his injury February that he’s been off the farm, and we took our maximum, on-the-flat-only-no-trotting-or-turning walk. What a treat to do even that!
Our big news this week at the farm is that the Barn Swallows nesting over a light fixture in the garage finally fledged. That means we can finally shut the garage door again, Sushi can finally go outside again and I can stop cleaning up bird poop on the floor of the garage. But it was well worth it: I lucked out and went outside about sixty seconds after the first one made its initial flight, and I got to watch for 30 minutes while all five of them they learned to fly. It was one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever seen. First they flapped frantically as they flew about thirty feet in and out of the garage, looking barely able to keep from falling. It was impossible not to watch and feel the drama of it. They flew in and out back and forth, chirping and squawking crazily, and slowly, ever so slowly, began flying further out, higher and lower, learning how to bank sideways, how to float up and dive down. The stopped their distress calls and changed their voice, and I swear by the time I quit watching they were saying LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!!!!, while they soared and twisted and dove down like fighter jets in a movie.
Here they are a few days ago with their fat little baby beaks and their feathers not yet all grown out:
And here’s one resting after her first flight. It’s not a great photo, but I couldn’t resist! She’s looking oh-so-grown up now! Any pilot will tell you the tricky part is landing, and she clearly would agree. Her first landing wasn’t pretty, but within 20 minutes she could take off and land like a pro.
Jen says
I’ve got a German Shepherd-beagle mix who also has trouble with strange dogs (although rather than stare, mine barks and acts fearfully aggressive). Like Ceilidh, he also has epilepsy. With Sparks, we realized early on that he reacted more to other dogs in the day or two immediately following a seizure (and if he met a new dog during that time, he held a grudge). As his seizure frequency increased, we hit a point where we needed to start him on phenobarb. Now, with his seizures under control, his trouble with other dogs has decreased dramatically. Even following a seizure, he no longer has the aggressive response he used to show. So, it might be worth tracking the dog’s seizure-focus pattern to see if there is a pattern; by being mindful of that connection before Sparks was medicated we were able to keep him on better terms with neighborhood dogs. In this case, the correct medication helped immensely with the behavior issue (though we still don’t like the senile golden retriever or the 2-year old choco lab that pounces on EVERYBODY). Good luck to Ceilidh and her owner.
Susan G. says
I’m always so grateful for these blog posts! Oscar demonstrates some similar traits, including those pesky neighborhood dogs. The lock and load is tough for us. Thanks to your books and this blog, we have used an amalgamation of these approaches (in my layman’s interpretation) with some great success! He is just not very food (or toy) motivated, though, so it is hard sometimes to really engage him.
Alison says
Thank you for this case study! I too would like to be able to walk down the street with my dog without it being a stressful situation (for both of us). My gal Meg (also a Border Collie) is reactive to other dogs while on leash. Off leash she does fine around other dogs and will happily greet or ignore them. We’ve been working on it since I brought her home over a year ago and she has come a long way. Now she’s only reactive when we are in our own neighborhood. If we go to the park, the pet store, a class, or anywhere else 85% of the time she ignores others dogs until I say she can go visit them (off leash…we don’t do on-leash greetings as that makes her nervous).
However, I can not walk her around our own residential area without her going into a stiff-legged stare at another dog (or at a house where she has seen another dog before, even if the dog is not around at that time). Once the stiff-legged staring starts, I’ve lost her and no food, toy, or verbalizing will get her attention. The staring often turns into an all out jumping, barking, out of control situation if we aren’t able to move away fast enough. If I pick her up and carry her past the ‘dog zone’ she relaxes immediately, but this is not a long term solution for a 40 lb dog.
You’ve given us some new things to try (and reminded us of a few things we should go back to doing). THANK YOU!
Kathy Fischer says
I love that you blog and share all this info. Your posts are always so fun to read, and educational as well. Thank you so much for taking the time to post!
Jes says
Glad to see you talking about the Pittsburgh seminar! I was one of the attendees and I have to say it was amazing and well worth every second I spent watching you. I am studying hard to be an animal trainer, and I learned so much from you in just one day. Thank you for visiting my city and I hope to catch more of your seminars. Come back again one day!
Ceilidh and the other demo dogs you worked with look like they have a promising future, with your wonderful advice and the devoted handlers who love them enough to get them through their rough spots. I wish the best of luck to all who experience similar problems with their dogs.
Fjm says
I think it was in one of your books or blogs I first read about reactivity caused by fear – so very obvious once it has been explained, but so very different from the “being naughty” paradigm I grew up with. It has helped me enormously coping with the occasionally reactive terrier I walk (all she needs is to be given a little space, and to know she will be left alone, and she is perfectly happy), and has made me take great care when socialising my own little dogs as puppies to ensure they were never frightened. Definitely one of those many situations when prevention is better than cure – but so very, very helpful to have coping and curing methods explained in detail. Thank you – I look forward to the other case studies (and would it be possible to get follow up information from the owners on how they get on over the coming months?).
Barb says
No dog reactive dog here but a comment on the epilepsy. I have a dog that I (and the vet) believe has small siezures. Not the thrash around long ones, but the short ones about which I originally thought, “Now what was that.” My point being that the siezures, although minor, have had a huge impact on my dog’s ability to learn. Too long a story to go into in a post, but I am reminded again on the intimate connection between the function of the organism and any chemical/electrical imbalance. Sometimes the the effects of the imbalance show up in areas that one would never guess.
Christine says
My dog, a Swiss hunting dog, shows a similar behaviour, not towards dogs but cars! He has been bitten twice from a giant Schnauzer. Now, when his owner is driving by with his dog who is barking like grazy in the back of the car, my dog is responding with a lunge towards the car and barking back. But now there is not only this particular car but all silver-grey ones. I tried the “look” method with reinforcement. But he gets so excited he even doesn’t care about the treat. This behaviour just happens mainly at one particular street. I can walk him through the village with a lot of traffic and he doesn’t react. But lately I, without thinking, I told him “look” just to show him a new plaything. He looked, not at me but towards the passing cars and began barking. I was angry about myself, now I sure must invent another word for “look”!
KathyF says
I’ve got a Golden/Border Collie mix (you can almost see the two parts at war with each other!) who’s reactive. I’ve tried the methods in Feisty Fido, and we’ve got to the point where we can safely pass about 90-95% of dogs with no reaction. He autolooks, and at this point sometimes he ignores the situation altogether.
So there’s my encouragement. We went from barking and lunging at every dog he saw (especially black labs!) to almost no reactions at all in about 6-9 months–with tremendous success in just the first few months. Still, the dog he’s most reactive to is any black lab we see, even the really sweet gentle ones.
Now when I see another dog having a reaction, I want to shout to the desperate owner, “Try reading Feisty Fido!” as we walk away calmly. But they’d never believe this calm dog was once so reactive!
Curt Martin says
I love the concept of “Watch the dog” I can think of a few cases where that will come in very handy. A question about timing though. Do you think that if you could set it up so that you are spotting the dog and using the cue, before the reactive dog sees it and then introduce the dog (You know the dog is just around the corner and your assistant walks them around shortly after you use the cue), would it assist with some of the fear based issues? My thoughts, and tell me if I’m way off base, is if you have a fear based reactive dog, and you are cuing in before they start their reactivity or even see it the other dog, would they feel you have better control of the situation as a leader, and potentially relax and trust you and your judgement more?
Ellen Pepin says
I had a German Shepherd/Terrier mix who would bark and lunge at other dogs, joggers, bicyclists, and just about anything that passed us. She did this even if the stimulus was on the other side of the street. It was nearly impossible to have a pleasant walk with her. My husband called her “forty pounds of attitude.” The neighbors would go inside if they saw us coming. We got her into training as soon as we adopted her when she was just 1 year old. He had trained guard dogs in the Air Force, and his methods were old school. Nikki obeyed him, but she was afraid of him. She trusted no one except for me and my husband. We went through two more trainers with little success. It wasn’t until I read “The Other End of the Leash, and discovered your radio show that I made any progress. I also read “Feisty Fido”. I started to use “Watch me” first in our yard and then on walks.
After several years of doing this, Nikki was responding about 75% of the time. I kept at it, and finally got her to respond about 90% of the time. As she got older, she mellowed a bit, and she began to auto-watch. One day I was finally rewarded. She let two girls on bicycles go down our side of the street, and turned to me for her treat without me saying “watch me”. We could get by other dogs if they were on the other side of the street. Then we thought we would try her at the dog park. We weren’t there for more than five minutes when she started a fight. We did get her to be there for about twenty minutes at a time. After that amount of time, she became over excited and would show teeth. It was kind of sad though. When she would try and join other dogs in running, she was like the kid on the playground that no one wants to play with.
LJ says
I have a reactive BC that sounds very much like Ceilidh with the exception of the seizures. At one point, she was extremely dog reactive. In the beginning, I fed while she was going off at another dog (at one point I shot baby food into her mouth with a needleless syringe). The feeding was always preceeded by a bridge word, initially “dog” and later “watch me” and “heel”. Over time (many many months), she developed a brief autowatch. I couldn’t do much with her until I saw a vet behaviorist, who put her on “Vitamin P” (prozac), as there was a strong generialized anxiety component to her behavior. We later incorporated the “Look at That” game, but as you say, this may not be the best thing for a dog with a lot of eye, as she does tend to get stuck in the look portion–rather than glancing at the other dog, she looks for a few seconds, but then looks back at me. I’ve also used Look at That for a fence fighting situation in which she can hear, but not see the dogs on the other side of the fence and it does seem to help.
As you said in relation to Ceilidh, in addition to to the anxiety, there is a bitchiness or control aspect to this. Working with my dog has been like peeling away layers of an onion. Now that the anxiety is largely under control, the bitchiness/control has appeared and unfortunately there appears to be an aspect of predation, as well. When she is anxious, her head, tail, and body carraige are up, whereas when she is in predation/ bitch mode her head and tail are down, like she is working sheep.
Interesting, she has always accepted Border Collies and in a herding environment they simply fade into the background like trees. This was the case even when she was at her worst. My agility instructor also has a reactive female BC and without ever coming into physical contact with each other, they appear to have reached some sort of understanding and they simply don’t look at each other and are able to co exist in an agility environment without any difficulty.
There is hope for reactive dogs. Almost thee years after my first and only appt with the veterinary behaviorist, this dog, who couldn’t even walk down the driveway without going off at the dog across the street, is now able to participate in well-managed group agility classes and this morning we walked through a crowded farmers market and then a crowded petstore with with only one growl/ minor reaction that was directed at a Boston Terrier staring at every dog in sight and being generally rude and obnoxious. There’s that bitch/control thing again.
Jennifer Sider says
I love reading your books and this blog; gives me so many ideas for training tools. I suspect I have a dog that is an alpha wannabe, since it is my understanding that alphas are born not made (and other dogs recognize their alpha status); and she’s been in the process of being a made dog; almost her whole life. We have 5 week old puppy pictures with her rolling the other pups and pinning them. She would like to do this to other challenging dogs, but not other submissive dogs. I wouldn’t call her aggressive; since she doesn’t go to look for fights; but certainly if a dog presents a challenge; she will take them up on it. I think we will work more on her “Watch Me” command; good thing she is food motivated!
Thanks again for your wisdom,
Jen and Dora
Betsey F says
The comments about the dogs are, as always, very interesting. For me, I’m glad you appreciate your barn swallows! I love my barn swallows–the only problem is that they come late (in April) and leave early (in August). In between, we’re practically mosquito-free! And they may also diminish the Brown Mormorated Stink Bugs which are a major plague here. I love my barn swallows!
Sheila says
This is a topic near and dear to my heart. I adopted a very sweet 2 year old blue heeler in December of 2009. She was highly reactive to everything that moved as well as other dogs and people. She did the lock and load look followed by maniacal lunging and barking. I used a combination of watch, LAT, and doggie zen to teach impulse control. I also treated anytime she looked at me without cueing. It was tough going for awhile. I often came home after a walk and bawled my eyes out, wondering if I had made a mistake in adopting her. The turnaround came this past April. She began looking at me automatically whenever another dog showed up, and is able to stay nicely focused on me until I gave permission to greet someone. Her high point came last month when I was able to take her into a small independent pet store: she paid absolutely no attention to the other dogs in the store and waited for permission to take a treat. I feel for Ceilidh’s mom. I know what she is going through. All of her hard work and devotion to Ceilidh will pay off.
Betsey F says
My husband wanted me to say that at one point a couple of years ago he counted at least 50 barn swallows on the various wires around the barn! We must have lots of insects! We live next to a creek so I really appreciate the barn swallows1
julie says
Thank you Patricia for sharing all your knowledge. If you can’t make it to a seminar, the Dog-Dog Reactivity DVD is great! I now have more tools in my tool box. I truly appreciate all the ideas because each everyday scenario might be best served by different techniques. As I watched the DVD I problem solved how I could deal with our typical encounters based on my control or lack of control over the trigger dog and that dog’s energy level.
Thank you for sharing Willie’s struggles as well. You speak from the heart. I believe your decision to re-home the puppy was in the best interest of both dogs.
The most important advice you shared was related to being realistic about what is best for the dog. It is similar to being a parent. All new parents have dreams for when that newborn grows up, but in reality it is the child’s life not ours. Similarly, we may have hopes and dreams for that puppy we bring home, but it should be the dog’s strengths that dictate that dog’s life. Any dog trainer is doing more for her dog by matching dog sport participation or activities to suit the dog’s needs rather than handler’s interest.
Again, thank you Patricia!
Trish says
My two-year-old Border Collie Pip is very reactive to other dogs on leash and she also shows a lot of barrier aggression–getting reactive when a person or dog nears our sidewalk, fence, or front door. On the other hand, she does just fine at the dog park when she’s off leash, shows good manners, greets, and plays (selectively) with other dogs (though she prefers me and my tennis ball). Because of these problems, I find walking her very stressful. Her most common problem behavior is to lunge when she sees another dog and to bark, low growl. It’s not clear to me if she is trying to show dominance or just wants to greet the other dog. Needless to say, other dog owners are wary of letting her approach under such conditions. And like the dog described here, it is hard to get her attention once she fixes her border collie stare. I have taken several obedience classes, and I always ask for help with this problem, but neither of the trainers I have dealt with really seems to think it’s a big deal. They just shrug and tell me to practice heel. So, on my own, I have tried a few things: she used to lunge uncontrollably at people, bikes, and cars, and I was worried enough that I VERY selectively used a shaker can to deter her and get her attention. That worked (I only had to shake it once or twice and that behavior stopped), but it also makes her anxious if I bring the shaker can on a walk–it basically ruins her walk and she walks with her tail between her legs, so I stopped bringing it. Now, with the lingering behavior of lunging at dogs, I try these things: U-Turns (always work, if I think fast enough), getting her into a sit BEFORE she sees the dog, and putting my body between her and her vision line to the other dog. I have also begun teaching her “watch” (from Feisty Fido) on short walks, which I think this is developing nicely–but slowly. I have another dog and basically, I have had to accept that I can only walk one of them at a time because the BC needs all my attention on these walks. A walk with Pip is always work, and once I realized that, I was less frustrated. I no longer bring an iPod or let me mind wander. And that has made a big difference. We’re getting there!
Lisa H says
Are particular breeds more leash reactive than others .. or is this another “it just depends” situation? Both my BCs are fine off-leash w/other dogs. The 3 1/2 yr old male simply ignores all other dogs when off-leash but snarks if w/in feet of another on-leash. The 1 yr old female barks & belly crawls toward another dog whether on or off-leash. But, I find it very interesting to read multiple comments of how many BCs seem to be less reactive to other BCs … my male ONLY greets other BCs … again, breed specific or not? I haven’t experience owning any other breeds. Lastly, I have a friend w/a highly reactive nearly 4 yr old male BC and learning an autowatch on walks has been their lifesaver -he looks for cookies on the ground whenever he sees other dogs & she always complies as its well worth the reinforcement even 2 years out.
LaDonna K says
I was so pleased to have the opportunity to attend your Pittsburgh Seminar. I had some ask me why I would attend when I do not have dog reactive dogs. My answer was, “well you never know when I might”. I have had reactive dogs in the past and I probably made their life more difficult because of my lack of knowledge about the issue at the time. Even though living with a dog reactive dog is not always easy, I will say that I learned more from them than any of my other dogs—because I had to.
Thanks Patricia for sharing your amazing knowledge and delightful sense of humor with the rest of us.
Shelly says
First, what a cool thing to watch baby birds’ first flights! My last summer in Wisconsin, I was lucky enough to watch the blue jays in my mother’s yard fledge. Cool, indeed!
As for reactive dogs…they are a touch process. Calvin, who was a demo at Grisha’s Seattle seminar, has come a very long way since those days. My husband just commented today how much more social he has become on leash. Though he isn’t to the point of greeting every dog, we are now actually initiating contact in some cases. With Calvin, I used BAT, LAT, and a lot of patience.
My mom’s whippet, who was attacked on leash in her neighborhood about a year ago, was a perfect candidate for “watch” (yes, sight hound :)) and emergency u-turns a la Feisty Fido. She is now not only much better on walks, but has become comfortable enough to run at the dog park again…even when there are big, white fluffy dogs around!
Jan: If you are reading this, they take a lot of love and patience, but the joy of those little breakthroughs really do get you through the work!
Mary says
to Lisa H: My BC actually seems to dislike other BC’s (maybe because when he was about 14 weeks old, we went back to visit his breeder, and his canine mother showed her teeth at him when he tried to nurse, and one of his littermates who the breeder kept also showed his teeth at him). Obviously, Mom was not particularly tolerant of other dogs, and I see that genetic tendency in my dog, but we did puppy classes from 2 different training establishments when he was young, and that really helped. I personally think he’s not fond of BC’s because many of them have a lot of drive and are pushy (as he is). He likes the dogs that are low key and calm.
Also, although it seems many BC’s are reactive to other dogs, I know many that are just fine and even love playing with other dogs – without any special training.
Anna says
I too was at the Pittsburgh seminar and enjoyed it very much. I have two Pembroke Welsh Corgis, the male doesn’t like Shelties and I have used the “watch m”e to work on the issue and now at trials he looks at me and if I don’t know there is a sheltie about he looks at the sheltie and back at me until I catch on give him the treat… he has me trained well.
My little girl is fine around other dogs and mostly fine at home but then sometimes she gets an attitude and growls, lunges, snaps at her brother (not litter mate) for just existing… I am having trouble figuring out what to do to ease this issue. Intermittent problems are sometimes the hardest to figure out.
Jeanine says
If you need a success story, then maybe Milo’s will help. I got a 10-month old border collie about 5 years ago who’d gone into rescue because the folks who bought him and his sister stopped feeding them regularly and the dogs were starved. At the private rescue facility or maybe earlier, Milo learned to herd other dogs. When I got him, he’d very much fixate on other dogs, especially high-drive dogs, and do his best to herd them if possible. He had NO recall in this situation and no “watch me” at all. (I wanted to do agility with him, so interrupting this behavior was pretty important to me.) After lots of false starts, I read Leslie McDeavitt’s book and started applying those principles, using the “look at that (dog)” as my primary tool We’d watch a lot of agility classes from as far away as I could manage, and I’d click and praise his fixation and slide some leftover roast or other super high value treat into his mouth. And since he was also food-fixated, he’d eat and stare. I effectively reinforced the undesirable behavior he was offering, and didn’t make the reward contingent on anything — and used high value treats to ensure he took them. But generally by the 10th or so rep, his head would be coming around a bit, and I’d click that and keep offering food. By the 20th/30th rep, he’d be encouraging me to get the food coming faster.
It did take a long time, and Milo still wants to herd other dogs but he has a much more playful posture right now as well as an outstanding recall. (I’ve called him off of rabbits, etc.) If left to his own devices, he still wants to fixate on high-drive dogs racing around and now I’m at the point where I can let him do this, because a word of praise makes him turn to me to demand a cookie and it takes only a word to interrupt his behavior. We do go to agility trials and classes, so he has to deal with his triggers massively and regularly. (And Milo would probably be willing to give up staring at other dogs completely if I would make it worth his while, but while he may be convinced that a ball-shaped dog can roll down an A-frame rather well, I’d prefer that he remain reasonably svelte. And yes, he’s now a fast and highly-focussed agility BC.) It does take time and we still play the “look at that” game, but it works.
chloe De Segonzac says
Have you read “In Defense of Dogs” by John Bradshaw? What did you think? interesting/anything new??
Amy says
This is so exciting to read this blog today. Just last week I wrote a blog post about my reactive dog. Reactivity is one of the most frustrating things to have to train a dog not to do. But when the progress starts it is the best feeling in the world!
We own (similar to a lot of people that have posted) a young male Border Collie who is reactive to bikes, people and other dogs while on leash. He isn
jackie says
My reactive BC cross does – or rather did – staring/freezing/stalking big time before proceeding to snarl/lunge when the dog got a bit closer. (Humans got a telescoped version from a closer range: a short stare and then a snarl/lunge/snap.)
We’ve been trying to desensitise him to his fears for 2 1/2 years, and specifically using a mix of LAT and informal BAT for about 10 months. He can now look at another dog and look away again for a treat, provided we’re not too close. He can also walk while looking at another dog, provided we’re not too close.
‘Too close’ is still usually around 50 feet away but at his worst I would get an unbreakable stare/freeze/stalk if another dog was even visible, so it is an improvement. We’ve had similar small improvements with his human reactivity using the technique.
It is so difficult trying to always keep at least 50 feet away from other dogs and 10 feet away from humans, though! Particularly since he is also very anxious about going in the car so driving him to quieter places is actually counterproductive.
Susannah says
Would you recommend broadly the same protocol (with different threshold distances) for off-leash management as well as on-leash?
Martina says
I don’t quiet understand why trying to controll ones umwelt makes a dog an alpha wannabe? Every living being has the need to control it’s umwelt to feel safe, to predict consequenses of it’s own behaviour etc.
LS says
I have a 9 year old female pit bull/lab mix whose behavior sounds very simlilar to this example. She doesn’t bark or lunge, but exhibits a stiff alertness and direct, sustained eye contact. She has never been a dog park dog, but has done fine with other family pets and various senior foster dogs. When I adopted her in the shelter at age 1 yr., I asked the shelter worker how she was with other dogs and he laughed and said, “Fine as long as she can be the boss.” She was in a pen with another dog at the shelter. The more time I spent with her, the more I suspected that she was as much anxious or afraid as she was bossy. The sentence, “Without knowing her better, I
chloe De Segonzac says
Mary: I’m around a lot of BC’s. Overall they do play/accept other BC dogs better than other breeds. What I have noticed is their dislike of pushy dogs, dogs who have very high tolerance and great liking of physical closeness, and slammers/boxing/ full contacts dogs.
They also play differently with members of their packs and extended family than with other dogs. They don’t play the same as most breeds, not particularly liking to roughhouse, roll in the grass together etc. Mine likes to greet a dog with a slight wag of the tail and a bit of a sniff. Then she is ready to go on with her job/or what ever she was doing before being interrupted. What provokes the ‘nip & go’ as I call what my dogs do, is a dog that won’t let them leave. It is important in my view to be very aware of that, and let other dog owners know I even would say we have a responsibility to protect our BC’s. and if needed put our bodies between the dogs and walk off. I’ve never known a purely aggressive border–although I’m sure they are out there– still a nip in self defense may start a fight. Reactive though–yes some are SO that way. Motorcycles, skateboards, children screaming/running etc. seems like low noises combined with movement is the thing. Borders are very keen on order.
trisha says
Lots of interesting comments, thanks for that. A few comments from here: Chloe — I too have observed that BCs don’t tend to play body slam/wrestling games and much prefer running and chasing. (Although I also have observed some bodaciously aggressive BCs I’m sorry to say.)
About practice for dogs who do “Watches” some of the time. Oh yes yes, I hear you, it’s one thing to do a watch when minimally distracted and another to do it when intensely so. That’s why that middle area, building up to the tough ones is the most important part of the training, and takes the most time. It also seems to be the part we most often neglect (me included, I have to remind myself just like I do everyone else!). Step 1: No distractions – Easy. Step 2: Some distractions — Not hard but takes some work. Step 3: -Moderate distractions (not dogs yet) — Getting harder, spend the MOST time of this step to build up to the next. Step 4: Intense distractions — Hard hard hard, but surprising how well they go if you did a good job on Step 3!
trisha says
Martina: I use the term “alphawannabee” to be dogs who want an excessive amount of control (we all want some, but we all know that some want more than others) AND who have little confidence and as such tend to b e anxious and overly reactive.
Susannah: I absolutely would use this for off leash work IF you’ve proofed it through high level distractions on leash and begin off-leash back at Step 1. I’d run the heck the other way (if the dog likes to chase) or throw a toy behind me if the dog is more object oriented if that’s the best reinforcement. Start slow and easy, no distractions, and work your way up. (If it’s a challenging dog you might put a long line on the dog, let it drag, just to act as a safety net, not as a correction in any way.
Shelley: Congrats on taking Calvin so far, it’s great to hear from you!
And I don’t think that BCs are more reactive than other breeds on leash, I’ve seen so so so many clients whose dog are problematic on leash. In Denver this weekend I’ll be working with a Corgi, an Airedale and a Standard Poodle.
Christine says
As to my comment above about my 3-year old Swiss hunting dog! Thank you Trisha, I exercised the “lueg” (for look in Swiss German) in the steps you recommended. After a few days already I can see a difference. Tabasgo doesn’t launch at the cars anymore (or almost) but looks after them and then looks at me for beeing rewarded! I know it will take some time to consolidate the correct behaviour. My fault is though, that I’m not consequent enough and my timing not perfect! Since puppyhood Tabasgo is raised and “educated” after your books and methods …. thank you so much!!!!
Jeanine says
The issue with reactive dogs often is whether they lack obedience (control by the handler) or whether they lack self-control. When it is the latter, obedience exercises by themselves can take a while to produce the restraint or self-calming that really is needed. My experience has been that a “look at that” exercise produces a much more automatic reference to the handler than “watch me” training, especially since my dog tends to see things he wants to react to substantially earlier than I do. Then if Milo fixates on something I have not noticed, I can interrupt him, without adding any type of stress to the situation, by simply praising him and he turns into to me to get his cookie (assuming he hasn’t already bounced back to me to let me know a horrible nasty motorcycle was approaching.)
The “watch me” training works quite well during training sessions, but real life has a bad habit of providing triggers that quickly put a dog over threshold (i.e. motorcyclists that tailgate as one’s dog goes berserk in his car crate.) . I have done a lot of it but had little success until I combined it with other exercises, such as LAT.
Alex says
Thank you for this post. I am working on this right now with my Aussie.
Mary B says
I can’t find any information on how to stop my smooth collie’s (Old Farm Collie maybe) dog’s reactivity resource guarding problem. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this problem: My dog lunges into a full on assault on another dog with no warning ONLY over food or bones with the lightest interest shown by the other dog. So far she has only done light bites but the other dog is pinned and she is barking ferociously. I have to pull her off as she pays no attention to me or anything else in the attack.
This dog will let any human take meat right out of her mouth with no resistance and will drop it on command. She waits for 5-10 minutes with meat right in front of her until I give her the ok. She plays wonderfully with other dogs of all sizes and shares her most valued toys with no qualms. She is fine with me petting and giving other dogs treats right in front of her mouth. She doesn’t have the leash/walking reactivity problem – mostly she just wants to go and greet them. She has made friends with dog reactive dogs by her friendliness and non-threatening behavior. She is very toy focused otherwise.
It is such a specific behavior and so sudden that I am at my wits end on how to stop it. She is so very good in every other way. She doesn’t live with another dog but does live with 2 cats. I hate not being able to trust her when she is so very good otherwise.
Mary says
Mary B: My only thought would be to feed her in a crate if there is the possibility of other dogs being around while she’s eating. That won’t solve the food reactivity problem but at least it will prevent other dogs from being injured. So until you can come up with a plan, at least she won’t be “practicing” the wrong behavior.
Angela says
Enjoyed this post! I agree that “look at me” and “look at that” seem like opposites, but they really do both have the same result . I tried both for my 2 year old BC Dax, who was excited by other dogs at agility class (to the point of pulling and barking and unable to focus anytime another dog was going fast or going through a tunnel). I found “look at that” to be much less exhausting for me (and probably for Dax too) – there was just more positive energy with that game, and he’ll initiate it himself sometimes. After using some exercises from “Controlled Unleashed” – mostly “look at that”, along with a strict rule of heading back to his crate to sort of “reset” when there was any over the threshold behavior, I now have a dog who can reliably work off lead with other dogs in the agility ring instead of running off to herd the other dogs.
We got past this in just a couple of months, which is way faster than I expected. I suspect it’s partly due to him just growing up a bit, as well as the attention exercises.
I totally identify with Chloe’s comment about movement + noise being a trigger for BCs. We had a huge problem with car chasing, and with LOTS of work, Dax now sits (automatically) when a car is coming. For the most part, he is now not reacting to cars other than by sitting, but cars driving on the brick streets in our neighborhood are quite noisy, and I notice that he has more trouble staying calm for those.
Trisha – we tried sitting for cars after reading a long ago post where you discussed how sitting was incompatible with herding behaviors. I thought maybe Dax’s car chasing was related to herding since it involved the BC crouch and stare.
chloe De Segonzac says
Mary: why are there strange dogs around when she’s eating?? Feed her in a different room in a crate as Mary said, and pick up the bones after she’s done. Why make wait for her bone for 10 minutes; that’s an long long time?? What’s the point?
em says
Thank you so much for this post. Otis went through a bad patch with leash reactivity around other dogs. Though it wasn’t severe (he has never been aggressive) it was godawful to deal with because he’s so big. Seeing his stiff posture and hard stare scared the pants off of other dogs and owners, and heaven help us all if he barked. Of course, their nervousness (and my embarassment, made worse because he is particularly suspicious of small dogs) made him more anxious and it became a vicious cycle. His issues were directly linked to a couple of nasty incidents in which he was bitten (not severely, but bad enough to draw blood) by leashed dogs while leashed himself. Their owners approached enthusiastically, wanting to touch and greet the big dog, not really paying attention to what their dogs wanted. The problem is that it happens so quickly that the conversation doesn’t really get around to the appropriate issues…”Is your dog friendly? ….Well, yes, but…..*lunge,snap, there’s a beagle hanging off his face*
In the second case, the person approached despite the fact that I expressed my discomfort with the situation. It’s such an ingrained reflex, for me at least, to try not to offend people, that I wasn’t clear or firm enough to divert this well-meaning but epically clueless person from putting both our dogs into a bad position. “I don’t think that your dog wants to…. *lunge snap, another chunk out of Otis* Fortunately, he never extrapolated to off-leash interactions, and has always enjoyed meeting and interacting with dogs, but for a while he wanted NO PART of any strange dog anywhere near him when he was on the leash. Known dogs were ok. I can’t say that I blame him, especially because the brutally honest part of my mind has to acknowledge that his I’M-NOT DEALING WITH THIS attitude has ended up doing more to keep him safe than I did.
I’d like to say that I worked tirelessly with LAT or BAT, but I didn’t. Mostly, I started going out of my way to avoid passing close to other dogs while on leashed walks, and his attitude gradually eased up. He can still be tense around dogs near our house, where he’s more generally concerned about the presence of strange dogs and I try not to let leashed dogs approach leashed Otis head-on, but he’s much, much better.
Kat says
For what it is worth my observation is that all herding breeds want to control motion, especially fast motion. It makes sense since they were bred to control the motion of flocks and herds and a fast moving animal breaking out of the group needs to be controlled as quickly as possible before the rest of the group follows suit. Ranger is pretty laid back and will tolerate a lot of undisciplined motion but even he reacts to it. Interestingly a single jogger gets only a glance or possibly a head turn but a group of joggers (three or more) he wants to go after and I have to tell him no.
We’re very lucky in that Ranger is not leash reactive. I sometimes worry that we won’t be able to maintain that given all the idiot dog people out there. I get tired of taking my dog for a walk and having some strange dog off leash running up to greet him. He’s very solid but sometimes he’s not in the mood for puppy enthusiasm or inappropriate greeting. Have your dog under control and only let him visit if you’ve asked if it is OK. It reminds me of a story from one of my friends. They had an Akita and were walking her on leash in the woods, when another large, off leash dog came flying down the path with a person trailing him yelling “it’s OK he’s friendly.” The dog body slammed the Akita and she took him apart. $3000 in vet bills later the owner of the other dog realized that letting your uncontrolled dog run off leash no matter how friendly isn’t a good idea. The Akita who was fine with controlled greetings or would ignore another dog on leash wasn’t good with an overly exuberant greeting.
And if your dog is reactive, please, let me know. It makes things so much easier. Visiting at the local nursing home we met someone else visiting with his reactive Pyrenees. We needed to pass each other in the hall so when he told me his dog had issues when on leash I put Ranger against the wall in a wait while the other dog walked by. Pyrenees didn’t feel threatened by a dog that was not moving and there were two human bodies between them. The only thing that happened was we got a suspicious look from the other dog. Contrast that to the people with the mix that didn’t mention their dog’s issues when my son and I had Ranger out for a walk on a local trail. Whenever we meet someone we always have Ranger at heel so when we saw them approaching my son drew Ranger in but had him on the left. They drew their dog in and I figured no big deal two well mannered dogs passing on the trail. Unfortunately, as they started to pass their dog turned into a lunging, barking, snarling frenzy that they had to drag away while my son and dog were driven off the path. If we’d known I would have taken Ranger and he would have been on the right and stopped or we could have turned around and gone another way. We’ve done that before with reactive dogs in the neighborhood and never had a problem. Knowing makes a big difference.
Mary B says
“chloe De Segonzac Says:
July 21st, 2011 at 11:15 am
Mary: why are there strange dogs around when she
lin says
@Trish (w/ Pip): When you wrote, “A walk with Pip is always work,” I could so relate! I eventually told myself that I was my Pupper’s pack leader, and as such, was doing the work that a dog leader would: watching the environment, looking out for possible threats, always being aware of keeping my dog safe. It made me feel a little less sorry for myself.
Now Pupper is well into geriatrics, I don’t have to worry about other dogs (she actually ignores other dogs unless they try to sniff her) but I have to be watchful because her back end is getting wobbly and she can fall.
Marguerite says
Your description of the barn swallows reminds me of a story a dear friend likes to tell. Fran and her husband Tom were friends with Mildred and Gilbert, who owned a farm. One morning, fairly early, Mildred called and said, “Come over for breakfast RIGHT NOW.” Fran and Tom went over and Mildred had laid out a picnic table in the barn. While eating bacon and eggs, they all watched the barn swallows leave their nest with great aerobatic displays.
D says
Is it too late to comment on this thread? Sorry…been so busy and am catching up.
My heart goes out to Jan. My BC’s seizures started last year (a complete surprise!) at the age of four. Like Jan, I know that I’ve since “let him get away with” behaviours I might normally correct. It’s hard when you just aren’t sure you know all the seizure triggers, and you, the human, associate seizures with certain circumstances…ugh…it’s a horrible nightmare that’s impossible to explain to those who haven’t experienced it. I’ve spent TONS of money searching for a cause (MRI, CSF tap, etc etc), and now my dog is medicated and his seizures are mostly under control, but not completely.
Anyway, as Barb mentioned early on in this thread, it is difficult to know how the brain chemistry is affecting behavior. I am convinced my dog’s seizures are painful, as he’s “not right” for days after a grand mal seizure occurs. Who knows what that does to his social interactions??? I’m fortunate that overall, he’s a friendly dog and loves to work – and “our” neurologist said that he deserves to work…so he’s still working sheep and loving it.
I was driven to learn how humans deal with this condition, since humans can talk…and the spectrum is far wider than I’d have ever imagined prior to having to deal with it myself. I found a human-focused website, http://www.cureepilepsy.org, that has some amazing stories. I encourage everyone to read some of the “Faces of Epilepsy” stories. Some humans with epilepsy can lead “normal” lives, but others have to give up promising careers after years and years of education. It’s just heartbreaking.
Anyway…fascinating thread, as always. Thanks Trisha, for what you do for those of us trying to do the best for our dogs. The opportunity to read others’ stories and know we’re not alone is uplifting and healthy. Again, my best to Jan for her courage in dealing with these issues!
Janis says
I wish I’d have know you were doing a seminar near Pittsburgh! I have a reactive Shepherd who is fearful/sometimes aggressive around other dogs. Never while on leash, though. I have passed your books along to all of the new dog owners I know. (Now I want them back – I miss reading them!)
Nancy says
I have an 11-month-old neutered Doberman. We are his fifth home and he has been with us for almost 3 months. His main issue is leash frustration, not aggression. In other words, he becomes frustrated because he cannot immediately go up and greet either human or dog while on leash. This happens with any barrier; car, fence, etc. He is great off leash at the dog park; has good manners with people and dogs. Loves people when they come to our house. We are working on get the “Watch Me” down cold and have also instituted the Nothing in Life is Free program. Do you treat this type of leash behavior differently than aggression? Is BAT training really appropriate here since he does not want to get away, he wants to go and play! No prior training of any kind before he came to us and we are using a Sensation harness (he seemed to be more reactive with a GL). Thanks.
Pamela says
I have a 10-month old male BC, who is extremely leash reactive. While much of what I read attributes leash reactivity to fear, the trainer I am working with thinks my dog wants to play with every dog he sees. Off leash he bounds up to all dogs and tries to engage them in play. All dogs -big and small, willing and not. I am always so happy when I meet other owners whose dogs are also off leash and willing to play with Lucky. But sometimes an owner will see my dog coming towards theirs, and immediately attach the leash. A couple of times when this has happened, Lucky has tried to control the other dog by nipping at it, causing a lot of anxiety. When Lucky is on leash and he sees another dog, he barks, lunges, tries his very best to pull me in the direction of the other dog. A couple of owners have said it’s ok. to come over and let him sniff but then I have a hard time pulling him away. If I try to go past the other dog, it becomes much worse. I have started trying to avoid all places where other dogs might be. Even when we are in the car and Lucky sees a dog on the street, he goes ballistic. The trainer has told me I need to try to head him off before he can see the other dog, but honestly this is almost impossible. I love my dog and am otherwise very happy – my husband however is threatening to give him away. I will try some of the training tips listed above – especially look or watch. I sincerely hope it works.
Colleen W says
What I enjoy most about your blog is there is no expiry date on the information! Sounds like Ceilidh and my Hazel are the same dog. Hazel, now 6 years old, is an SPCA special, best guess is koolie or cattle dog mixed with anybody’s guess, but definitely has herding and prey drive intensity. She loves, loves, loves adult people. To her, small children and toddlers should be herded, and she dislikes most dogs. The only dogs she tolerates are ones where she has loved their people first, and has learned to tolerate their dog so she can love the person. She doesn’t “like” any dog.
For the past 4 years, I have been reading your books and working with an excellent trainer. I have used BAT and many of the methods described, and I regularly take Rally Obedience classes to continually improve the dog/owner connection with Hazel and I.
It works. I am very happy to report that Hazel sees a dog and looks at me within one second for her treat. She doesn’t lunge at squirrels, cars or skateboards anymore. We are still working on cats, and there are some dogs that she simply does not like, and we avoid them. Most importantly, I have learned to read her cues, understand her triggers and prevent a negative situation from occurring.
Hazel is the most challenging dog I have ever owned, previous dogs were border collie mixes. I have had to step up my own game as a trainer/owner. The most important thing I’ve learned in this journey with Hazel is the person is the key – as you say – The other end of the Leash. Dogs are dogs; they are animals, and we can’t expect them to react in the way a human would nor can we 100% rely on an anticipated behaviour from them. It was only when I fully understood that, that I became a better dog owner and handler.
I thank you and recommend your books and website to all my dog friends. I work with Hazel every day, on every walk and on every interaction. “Training” is our norm and it doesn’t seem like training now, because it is just how we do things. We still have incidents, but they are always when I get distracted and miss a cue, or don’t see something. But she is golden when I’m on my game!