Have you seen the latest issue of The APDT Chronicle? It has a fantastic article by Suzanne Hetts and Daniel Estep (both CAAB & Ph.D) titled Safety and Ethics in Working with Dog-to-Dog Aggression. Anyone who treats dog-dog aggression, or who has a dog who might have that problem would do well to read it. (And to stay tuned, Chronicle will have more articles on dog-dog aggression in several issues to follow–Pia Silvani and I are writing one together for an upcoming issue.)
One of the important points they make is that dog-dog aggression is often not taken as seriously as aggression toward humans, and yet, it can have horrific effects on both species. No one knows better than they: their Dalmation and Irish Setter were brutally attacked by a loose dog last year, and were only saved thanks to the efforts of 4 people–Dan, Suzanne and 2 brave and altruistic passers-by. Suzanne’s hand was broken and was in a cast for 5 weeks. Dan, Suzanne and the dogs were seriously traumatized . . . how could they not have been?
And yet, we all know of people who are willing to work with dog-dog aggression cases, but not cases in which humans are the targets (at least not directly.) However, aggression toward any species can result in serious injury, even death, and needs to be taken seriously before someone takes on the task of trying to help with it. The article in The Chronicle does a great job of listing what is needed to be able to ethically and responsibly work with dog-dog aggression cases. If you can’t get a hold of a copy of the magazine (July/August 2010), they summarize it on their website, Animal Behavior Associates.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: I’m in the usual flurry of trip prep, leaving tomorrow at dark thirty to do a seminar for Dogs of Course outside of Boston. I speak on The Biology of Emotions on Saturday, and Ken Ramirez talks on Sunday on Solving Training Problems, Non-Food Reinforcers among other things. I’m staying on to hear Ken’s talk; I always learn a lot when I listen to him speak. The seminar is booked solid and I don’t think they can take any more registrations (waiting list?), but come up and say hi if you are a blog reader. It always warms my cockles, wherever the heck my cockles are, to meet a blog reader in person.
Speaking of cockles, or words vaguely related (sorry, can you tell I’m getting a little slap happy?), here’s a visitor to the farm. There are lots of turkeys in the area, they’ve flourished here once they were re-introduced, but they usually don’t come knocking on the front door. This one was all by himself beside the garage as I drove up. As I struggled to quietly get out my camera and get the window down. he strolled across the driveway and meandered up the hill behind the house, but in the pictures he is just a few feet from the garage. The pictures aren’t great quality, but I can’t resist giving him (her?) some press.
D in NH says
Trisha, Welcome to New England! Sorry I won’t be there…silly me sent an entry to a doggy competition and didn’t realize it was a conflict at the time. I hope you enjoy your visit! Saw you last year in Maine and loved your talk, so I’m jealous of those attending the venue this weekend. You probably won’t have much extra time, but there’s a big sheep show/sale at the Eastern States Exposition Center in Springfield, MA, this weekend….in case you wanted some local “intel.”
Suzanne says
Thanks Dr. Trisha for mentioning our Chronicle article. You bring up a good point we’ve both been aware of, that for some, working with dog-dog aggression is viewed as a way of “cutting one’s teeth” or getting prepared to work with human directed aggression. As you said, we think that’s a dangerous belief.
Looking forward to seeing you at another Dogs of Course event – Pia’ Silvani’s BFF Conference in Exton PA in August.
Suzanne
Tricia says
Having experience lots of dog on human aggression in South Africa that goes unattended, I would agree that the two are quite distinct. I hope you learn lots from the talks to share with us.
Denise says
Turkeys are incredible birds. I live on the edge of a large city with bits of parkland scattered through dense 50s era housing developments. Plenty of green but hardly rural and I’ve seen turkeys calmly foraging right next to heavy traffic as if it were all in a day’s work. I love seeing them but it amazes me every time.
Question about Chronicles of the Dog – is it too technical for an interested lay person? I’ve considered getting a digital subscription but wondered if it would all be over my head.
Pamela Webster says
Even when dog-on-dog aggression doesn’t result in injury, the fear it causes in the human handler can have an affect for years to come.
I strongly suspect that I worsened my dogs’ reactivity when I had trouble getting past an attack on my pups by a neighborhood dog. I know now that I can’t expect my own dog to be appropriate and comfortable around other dogs unless I’m calm and alert.
Thanks for pointing out the Chronicle article. I’ll try to borrow it from a dog trainer buddy.
Pamela
Trini says
Trisha, thanks for the summary. The Chronicle looks like an interesting journal, even for those of us who only train one or two dogs (our own). I ‘d be very interested to know what other journals you read!
Kat says
It’s always irritated me how many owners of small dogs don’t recognize that their dog is aggressive to other dogs. They seem to think it’s cute when their little monster is barking and lunging and snarling trying to get to another dog. It’s something we run into much more often that we should. If my 90lb canine companion behaved like some of these under 10lb monsters people would be recommending that he be put down. Aggression is aggression no matter the size of the dog.
KateH says
‘Looks like a lady bird to me. Perhaps enjoying a walk alone since chicks should be self-sufficient, or she might even be a ‘teenager’ looking for the nearest mall (so to speak).
Chris Shaughness says
Excellent article, indeed. Dog-dog aggression is scary, not only because of the potential injuries to the dogs but the very real possibility of redirected aggression to humans. I have seen way too many cases. I hope that future articles in the series address this issue.
I have lived with a dog aggressive Golden Retriever for the past eight years. Without this first-hand experience with him, I could not have had an appreciation for what owners go through. He has been a curse and a blessing at the same time!
Just a note – for anyone who is not a member of APDT, you can subscribe to the on-line version of Chronicle of the Dog for $25 per year. It’s worth it! https://www.apdt.com/about/chronicle/subscribe/default.aspx
Alex says
I think your cockles are in your heart. : D
Thank you for the article!
Shelly says
Thanks Alex! I’ve often wondered where the cockles are, too! I grew up in Wisconsin, and that was a saying I heard often. 🙂
I was excited to see that Dan and Suzanne had written for the Chronicle. Couldn’t wait to crack that issue open. And, Tricia, I’m THRILLED to hear you are working on an article…with Pia none the less. I’m fans of both!
Beautiful pic of the turkey. Good to hear they are flourishing after the reintroduction.
Alexandra says
Thanks for sharing info about the article. It’s an important topic! And I completely agree with Kat about how aggravating it is when owners of small dogs treat their often severe agression as some kind of cute joke. My 60 lb lab mix could easily kill (even accidentally) a toy dog that picks a fight with her, and I’m dumbfounded that their owners don’t realize this. Agression is agression, regardless of the size of the dog.
Alexandra says
and pardon my typos… aggression has two Gs. Oops 🙁
Nicola says
As the owner of a small dog who tends to be aggressive towards large dogs if they are too “in your face” for her, I am very aware that my 3.5kg (7lb, i think) behaves in ways that would not be tolerated in a bigger dog. I work very hard to keep her and other dogs safe. And it would be much easier if owners of big dogs didn’t allow them to rush small dogs because “my dog won’t hurt her”
But keep in mind she cannot pick up another dog by the scruff of the neck & throw them for 2m (6ft+) which is WHY she became aggressive to large dogs.
Aggression is a serious issue no matter the size or breed – we all have to be careful to watch & supervise any interaction our dog has – dog-dog or dog-human & step in if it is more than that dog (or human) can handle!
Sharon Wachsler says
Hello.
I’ve been a lurker till now, but I think The Other End of the Leash is One Lovely Blog. Thus, I’d like to pass the One Lovely Blog Award on to you. I hope you will accept it. See:
http://aftergadget.wordpress.com/2010/07/17/one-lovely-blog-award/
Peace.
(P.S. I’m in Mass., and wish I could attend, even though it is sold out, but disabilities prevent me from traveling.)
Matthew says
Thought provoking article
Denise, the article is defiantly targeted at trainers and seems to have the goal of making them think about the issues and consequences of working with Dog aggression cases. However, I don
kate says
I’m not sure if this is allowed but I’m also a fan of Pat Miller and Dr. Karen Overall and follow Pat’s blog as well. I loved Pat Miller’s article ‘The Gift of Growling’, and sharing my life with opinionated…beagles…it was a relief.
She accompanied a client to Dr. Karen Overall’s for a session and here’s the link to her blog post.
http://www.peaceablepaws.com/blog/?tag=karen-overall
The session is last down at the bottom of that page.
I LOVED the way between Pat Miller and Dr. Karen Overall spoke about the drama.
They used words that I could relate to.Dogs growl and bark and it can be dramatic. It’s not flattering when you’re out and about, and some people don’t know what to do about it.
I just wish people would be more compassionate about what they say and it would be oh so helpful if they knew what TO DO when another dog is struggling and acting like a loon.
I actually stop and have my guys engage with me, I yawn, look away …while the other dog and owner go by. I’ve been in their shoes and would have given anything to have someone reciprocate something compassionate rather than passing judgment.
Here’s the part of the blog post that I really really felt related to the dogs that come into my care.
Molly says
Important topic, though I do disagree with the “aggression is aggression” comments in that the little ones can’t do nearly the damage. My dogs have been rushed by small dogs with bad intentions, but I know that I can deflect a small dog before they do harm. When my golden/cocker was the victim of a predatory attack by a loose ridgeback mix, the best I could do basically was protect her throat and scream for help (the owner who had let the dog loose despite the dog’s past history of killing rodents and cats was very slow to act, but did help in time to save my girl). My dog bounced back, but I have not. I will not walk that street any longer, even tho that family moved years ago, and large loose dogs terrify me in a way that a loose small dog never will.
Similarly, I’ve been bitten twice by smaller dogs (once a redirected bite, the other time very much intentional). It hurts for a while, but is nothing compared to the severe damage done to a coworker who was repeatedly bitten by a bully breed who was trying to kill her Australian terrier.
That said, aggression is stressful to the dog and and can in fact get that dog killed by a larger reactive dog. So I’m not saying it should ever be ignored, regardless of the size of the dog!
Frances says
On the subject of aggressive little dogs – I have seen so many owners of small dogs make their dogs fearful, sweeping them up every time another dog approaches, tightening the lead to keep them “safe”, standing stiff and fearful themselves. I have also had to step in innumerable times to block the over-enthusiastic greetings of big adolescent or simply ill-mannered dogs, intent on bowling my tinies over. All dogs need socialising – all dogs need to learn good manners, and all owners need to learn what constitutes good canine manners, too, so that they can teach them – but owners of tiny pups are often very, very aware of the damage a large dog can do. I had a papillon puppy badly torn by an ex-racing greyhound that showed no aggression – just grabbed her and shook her. Socialising any puppy means walking a thin line between ensuring your pup has all the right experiences, and avoiding exposing them to anything scary or dangerous. For owners of very small dogs, it can be a very narrow line indeed.
Kat says
To Small Dog owners, I absolutely agree that Big Dogs and their people need to be especially aware of how to meet small dogs in an nonthreatening way. My 90lb Ranger meets small dogs by my side in a sit or down (his choice which as near as I can tell he makes based on both the size of the dog and the amount of trepidation the small dog is feeling) and the small dog is allowed to approach or not as seems best to dog and human. Ranger has many small dog friends and plays very nicely with them. One of the funniest things is to watch him playing with a min-pin pal who will throw his whole weight against Ranger’s shoulder and then the pause while Ranger figures out what would happen if this had been done by a dog his own size then drops to the ground because he’s just been “bowled over.” Min-Pin is so proud that he’s taken down the giant Ranger. It’s adorable.
What I’m objecting to is not the perfectly understandable concerns of people with a toy meeting an unfamiliar dog that’s 10 times or more the size of their little dog. I’m talking about the times Ranger is walking on leash down a public street and a small, unleashed, unsupervised, unconfined little thing comes flying down out of their yard snarling, growling and barking. This is an unprovoked aggressive attack. Ranger is about as bomb proof as they come and tends to move to put me between him and the little monsters and walk on by (interestingly if it’s a larger dog even on the other side of a fence he puts himself between me and the other dog) but imagine if this is happening to a timid or even fearful big dog–if the clueless owners wanted to create dangerous situations for their little dog they couldn’t do a better job. Another example, at the dog park the other day a woman came in with her aggressive Yorkie. The Yorkie tried to attack an older Golden that was lounging by the bench forcing the Golden to leap to his feet (painful for a 15 year old Golden) and run. The Yorkie then went running down the park to where Ranger was investigating smells and tried to bite him. Yorkie’s person laughed and laughed, wasn’t that cute her little monster terrorizing the big dogs. She left when I verbally gave Ranger permission to deal with the little monster however he wanted. I don’t care what size the dog, that sort of behavior is aggressive and not acceptable and certainly not cute.
And finally, not all small dogs are aggressive and many of them have just cause to be wary of bigger dogs. But not all big dogs are rude and threatening either. In my dream world all dogs would learn good manners as a matter of course and all humans would have a clear understanding of dog behavior and how to help their canine companions be the best they can be. That’s one of the things I like best about this blog and the people who read it; the blog is a wonderful source of excellent information and the people who read it are all trying to understand and learn in order to give their dog the best possible life.
em says
As the owner of a very large dog, I have mixed feelings about the small-dog aggression issue. On the one hand, I do understand that very small dogs may easily feel overwhelmed by looming larger dogs, even if these dogs are not being deliberately pushy or intrusive, especially if the humans are nervous about the interaction. I also understand how difficult it is to put a bad experience out of one’s mind when approaching a new dog We’ve had enough run-ins with aggressive little guys that I’M much more nervous around small dogs than large ones-I’m not afraid that they’ll do much damage to my dane physically, but I am VERY aware that it would only take one bad moment, a single defensive snap, to do irreparable damage to both sides-the little guy could be killed, my gentle dane could be branded a vicious dog, and humans on both sides could be hurt and traumatized. So on the other hand, I see that small dog aggression IS dangerous-if they pick a fight with a powerful dog, people could be badly hurt trying to save them. Even if no one files a lawsuit, the dog defending himself could have his life severely restricted or, at worst, ended because of an incident that didn’t have to happen.
Fortunately for me, Otis has always been very tolerant of small-dog “attitude” and has a good sense of his relative size and strength. Even in extreme circumstances (tiny terriers dangling from his FACE)we’ve never had an incident (knock wood) in which he attempted to retaliate. I’m quite careful about allowing him near small dogs, even at the off-leash park, though I will second what Frances said about owners contributing, if not outright creating, a fearful/aggressive reaction in their little guys by assuming an overprotective stance. Many times I’ve seen a relaxed interaction between Otis and a little dog turn tense when a nervous owner snatches the little dog up off the ground. I understand the impulse, I really do, but I would note, for the benefit of anyone who owns a little dog, that it is not possible to raise your dog high enough that a dane cannot easily reach him-lifting him to elbow height only puts a now tense (and sometimes more than tense) dog at eye level where he appears more threatening to a big dog and holds him still, making him EASIER to grab. Otis, for one, also seems to have some protective impulse to intervene when humans become involved, becoming suddenly watchful and interested in a frenzied little dog he had been blithely ignoring when that dog’s owner tries to scoop him up or catch hold of him. The dog itself almost never upsets him at all, and honestly, I don’t know whether he’s concerned for the person or the dog, but pursuing or holding an aggressive or frightened dog seems to concern him a great deal.
All that said, I do also appreciate that those of us who have chosen to keep big strong dogs have also accepted the burden of extra responsibility-it may not be 100% fair that a great dane’s manners need to be better than his smaller packmates’, but that’s life. Those of us with big dogs can’t control the way that other dogs (or people!) may act, so we have to be doubly sure that we can count on the appropriate reactions of our own dogs, even in trying situations.
p.s. I have also found that the cues you use to communicate “approach gently” can impact how other owners percieve your dog’s behavior so much that it can change the whole emotional tenor of a meeting. A phrase like, ‘be good’, or ‘be nice’ immediately suggests that your dog might not be. I’ve had greatest success with the more accurate, ‘be polite’, which seems to put people at ease and sets the stage for a positive experience.
EmilyS says
one problem is always to define “aggression.” or at least to define what is DANGEROUS aggression and what is just dog communication that is scary to us. As Miller comments in the blog linked above, “What the clients saw as the young dog aggressing toward Older Dog A was actually a combination of the older, very arthritic dog being defensively aggressive toward the young, high-energy body-slammer, and the older dog being inappropriate with resource guarding until the young one decided he
KateS says
When I adopted my 18lb dog I was initially told that he was good with other dogs. I had had a boxer that was not good with others and I spent a large portion of her life actively avoiding other dogs by crossing the street. When other dog owners would ask if she was friendly and I said no, they looked at her Boxer self and would take their dogs to the other side of the street, even after I had gotten her to where she could walk by them with no problem.
Well, it turns out that my relatively new adopted dog is only halfway good with other dogs. He pulls and whines on the leash when he sees other dogs on the street. Half the time he approaches in a perfectly civilized manner and the other half the time he snaps in their faces. There is no warning from him which will happen. Once, when surrounded on all sides and approached by a much larger dog, he actually bit this other dog.
Meanwhile, I had not been standing by completely uselessly. I saw the other dog coming, I saw that the owner had him on a rather long leash, and so I took mine away from the main strip of sidewalk and worked with him to put him into a sit and stay calm. When the other owner approached I said that he was not friendly. She ignored this, and allowed her dog to come closer.
I was so horrified by what my dog had done and it proved a couple things. One of them is that if I don’t get a good sense about the other dog or owner, I need to be very clear. Even if I have to act like a completely insane person and end up practically screaming at the other owner to get away. I have so many times now said that my dog was not friendly and had other owners say things like, “oh, but he really wants to say hi” or “Oh don’t worry, my dog loves little dogs”. Whoop-dee-doo is always what I think. I know almost too well that if my dog reacts badly, your dog could do some real damage in the same of justified self defence.
I can’t stand when owners of small dogs allow their dogs to become unmanageable. Owners who keep their aggressive, unmanageable dogs on extendible leashes on the street make me really mad. But I know that I have adopted a dog that, besides this one issue I feel that I can work out with over time without question. When my ankle heals and I can walk again, I will take my little guy to the park and treat him every time another dog walks by at a distance. I will work on this issue, but until I get there, I want to be able to keep him away from other dogs if it’s needed, and I really wish other owners would respect that more.
Alexandra says
I get what some of you are saying about how small dogs just can’t cause as much damage, but it is a bit more complicated than that. By way of example, a very dear friend of mine had her lab-rottie mix labeled by our county as a “dangerous dog” and is required to be muzzled when out in public for the rest of her life because she was basically in the wrong place at the wrong time. A small terrier, who was well known amongst our neighbors to be aggressive and had a history of charging other dogs through his invisible fence, had nipped a few dogs before, and had even bitten a person, charged my friend’s lab-rottie mix. The larger dog defended herself from the attack with a single bite and pinned the smaller terrier. It was over in 3 seconds, and the terrier yiped and ran back to his yard. Although it wasn’t immediately obvious, that bite resulted in a fairly serious puncture wound to the terrier’s abdomen. The terrier’s owners regrettably delayed treatment for several days, which resulted in the terrier having to be euthanized (I also suspect their finances had something to do with that decision, but that’s not for me to judge… I just know the end result). Although my friend was able to defend herself and her dog from more serious financial and legal consequences in court, her dog was still branded as “dangerous” by the county.
That said, when on walks I do not allow my medium-large dogs to approach strange dogs under most circumstances. I only allow greetings when all dogs are relaxed and both humans agree that the dogs can meet, and I am sensitive to how their large size can be scary to smaller dogs or their owners. My lab in particular has a tendency to want to rush up quickly, which is something I do not allow him to do to any dog regardless of it’s size.
Frances says
How interesting that you use “polite” too, Em! I have two phrases – “Politely, please!” when greeting friendly dogs and people, and “Not everyone wants to play” when calling them to me away from less secure individuals (and people wearing pale trousers!). As you say, both phrases are more for the benefit of owners than dogs, and seem to set the right tone – I know I tend to stiffen when I hear “Be nice!” delivered in an anxious, warning tone!
Diana says
Small dogs CAN do damage to larger dogs. Just because of their size they don’t deserve a free pass for bad behavior. My retired racing greyhound and I were attacked by TWO small terriers (Jack Russells). It was impossible for me to get between both of them and my dog. Thank goodness my grey just wanted to get away and didn’t bite back. We were both bitten before the owner came outside (yes, the dogs were loose outside and the owner was inside his house) and managed to get his dogs off of us.
One of my current dogs has dog aggression issues (fear based). I am very careful to keep him controlled and avoid places where dogs tend to run off lead. I’ve worked hard with my dog and we do pretty good with on-leash dogs – we can pass each other as long as there are a few feet separating us (out of reach) and my dog does fine. We’ve participated in group obedience classes and as long as my dog is on one end (not hemmed in by multiple dogs) he’s good with most other dogs. But it does come down to an off-leash issue. If another dog is off leash and comes running up there is little I can do to prevent a fight.
Dogs in public need to be on leash. Period.
JJ says
I’ll repeat what I often say as it boils down what others have already said here. As an owner of a big dog/Great Dane, “My dog will not start a fight, but he would finish it.” Then I’d be the one getting sued and Duke killed.
I was once walking my dog slowly on leash on the grassy part of a public park. Duke was recovering from knee surgery. Out of the blue, a tiny something, just a few pounds, comes running up. He jumps up and grabs onto the side of the stomach of my dog and hangs there, growling and shaking his head (really his body which was hanging quite a bit off the ground). Judging by the way Duke reacted, it clearly hurt him. All of this while a group of people stood around and did nothing to help. The owner was no where in sight until sauntering over long after the incident.
This is only one example of many that we have experienced with small dogs. As usual, the owner did not take it seriously.
trisha says
I’m just getting my paws back on the ground after returning late last night from Massachusetts, but I can’t resist making two comments here. First, thank you for your thoughtful comments about, and examples of, dog-dog aggression. Here’s what your comments have underscored to me: Dogs, whether big or small or purple or polka dot, who are out of their owner’s control and charge/lunge/attack/bite other dogs, can do irreparable damage. Period. Size does matter sometimes to perception, the legal system and sometimes to the severity of the injury, but the bottom line is that the recipients of the above behavior can have their lives changed or terribly harmed in a variety of ways.
For the record, Karen London and I suggest a training technique in Feisty Fido that is designed to protect your dog from another dog running at your own. In summary, you first teach what we call an “Emergency Sit/Stay” such that your dog sits to the side and slightly behind you, and holds a stay while you turn to face the oncoming, unwelcome stranger. What you do next depends, but my favorite is to throw, hard, a handful of treats into the dog’s face. (This is an idea I got from Trish King, and I’ve loved it ever since I heard her describe it. I’ve used it too, and it works A LOT.) Of course it won’t stop all dogs, but you might be surprised how many dogs it will, and once they’re stopped they spend 5 minutes looking for the treats on the ground while you make your escape. Of course you wouldn’t try this without proofing your dog through Sit/Stay to a panicked voice and you moving forward to face the other dog while they stay still, but it is easier to train than you might think and it’s saved a good number of dogs. Anyone else used this technique?
ABandMM says
Just the other day I was remarking to a neighbor of mine who had just set off with her dogs on a walk how my dog Abby and I had encountered almost all of the “small, yappy, barking dogs” of the street and how obnoxious they were. The dogs were at the end of their leashes, barking away and trying to get in my dog’s face. My dog is an ~ 60 lb hound mix, who fortunately is more interested in the sidewalk smells and isn’t that into other dogs.
Since having a small dog run up to her at a park (where the dog should have been on leash) and give her “what for” by barking in Abby’s face, I have really curtailed any meetings with strange dogs. Abby is very mellow and does greet dogs properly when given the opportunity. However, when the Human makes no attempt to bring their barking, lunging dog under control, we give them as wide as berth as the city sidewalks allow.
Fortunately, Abby has a solid “WAIT”, so if that means we just stand in place (with me between her and the other dog) until the other dog passes so be it. We have also been creative with our walking patterns to avoid crossing paths with other dogs. It also helps that she doesn’t react to any any of this
On our walking route is one (of several) restaurants with outdoor seating. There is this one couple that dines there several times a week and brings their little dog with them and tethers him to the table. However, the dog lunges at my dog (and others that pass by) and the owners make no attempt to stop it. Fortunately Abby doesn’t react to this and seems to have this resigned “what a pest” look on her face.
As someone who often takes her dog to outdoor dining areas, I find this really annoying and worry about people who can’t control their dogs ruining this privelge for the rest of us who can. Same concern with people who let their dogs run around off leash in parks where it is clearly stated that dogs “Must Be ON-LEASH”.
I also had a dog that was a bit on the reactive side, and yes, I have asked people to not approach us. Like other posters above have mentioned, I too am amazed at how many people ignore this simple request.
Morgan (shepherd mix) and I took an advanced obedience class and in it was a female purebred shepherd. Right from the start she and Morgan “locked eyes and had low growling noises” and the instructor told the whole class how Morgan and the other dog had a “personality conflict” and were under no circumstances to be next to each other in class. Two+ dog spacing for us, and if either one of us needed to “re-focus” our dogs, we were free to excuse ourselves to a corner and take a “time-out”. I’m glad the instructor kept both of us in the class because it gave us the opportunity to learn how to, in a safe environment, work with our dogs when such a conflict arises. I’m happy to say at the end of the class, both dogs earned their CGC (though Morgan had another dog to do the “dog/dog/human exchange pleasantries” part of the test 🙂 ).
kate says
I’ve just got to add that over the weekend I did try the throw treats at the dog b-lining for us to no avail.
I’ve even thrown pepperoni and which hit the dog in the face and it didn’t even blink while it went around me and after George my little beagle who was standing behind me.
Only time it’s worked is with a really really old arthritic dog who couldn’t move fast, and he did go for the treats instead of chasing after us. I actually had time to catch that on video 🙂
What has worked for me is throwing treats on the ground for my guys and me being firm with the other dog to “go away”…but then again, that’s the minority of the time.
Once I take the firm road…my guys go on alert too, so sometimes it backfires.
Plus the other dogs normally just race around me. I’m not fast enough to grab a racing dog, until they stop…plus…I don’t even know if the other dog won’t bite me…
I too believe that enforcing on leash areas is key at least in our neck of the woods, where people just open a car door and let the dog go. There is no recall, no teaching them polite meet and greets. I’ve just teamed up with someone to start teaching workshops on impulse control…hopefully it’ll catch on. We’re gearing towards low commitment owners, who hopefully we can attract and get them hooked on the benefit of taking a few minutes each day to play games with their dogs, and when outside…use a long line (not a retractable) until their dog is reliable.
This past weekend…..and the reason I mention that it’s important for dog people to have a good handle on body language and know that there are different types of charges. Because we did have a charge from a Cocker Spaniel but I noticed that it’s body language was more conflicted rather than I’m going to shred you to pieces.
My dogs were on leash and as fate would have it…at the very end of our peaceful on and off leash walk….(I think I even said that ‘wow…no off leash dogs racing us and George was happy to ignore the ones we walked by) …Until a Cocker Spaniel b-lined for my beagles. Daisy recovering from surgery and had a cone on the other George is a magnet for these types of charges, and my adolescent Aussie, Keegan and a pug ( a friends). Who walk beautifully ON LEASH 🙂
I did throw the treats and say ‘go home!” and do the body language forward motion with arm point in the opposite direction (while his owner yelled at it) But it did the charge right past the handful of treats.
I did notice the conflicted “I’ve sure got myself in a pickle” body language and machine gun barking and staying in spot so I breathed a sigh of relief as I know if we just stay put (which my dogs were doing thankfully) we’d probably be okay. Otherwise…really it would have been a mess if that dog made contact with my beagles. Maybe that was a blessing?
Once the owner did catch up, he said ‘Sorry” and I LOVE this part….”MY DOG ONLY GOES AFTER OTHER DOGS THAT ARE ON LEASH”…..which I said “then your dog NEEDS to be on leash, as this isn’t fair.”
Plus George is just had a bad incident with a large pit/mix intact male rushing him while he was sniffing – mounting/attack….a few months ago, so this was the last thing we need.
I can’t change irresponsible owners, all I can do is find ways to communicate with my guys (I have a new cue to let my guys know they need to blow the other dog off as I can tell the other dog is just looking for trouble and return to me) http://www.youtube.com/user/daizyngeorge#p/u/28/YvlMdFsn2uo
I also started teaching them herding cues, as I thought maybe if I teach my guys what they can do to get away or see approaching dogs as a herd they don’t interact with but I can coach them on how to stay out of trouble if I notice the other dog is posturing.
I’m working up to Leslie McDevitt’s “Car Crash game” as it’s the only way I can see me getting a handle on these off leash dog incidents where there’s going to be impact. The onus is on me to bullet proof my dog’s response to make up for irresponsible owners.
ie..George had been barking at dogs from a distance after the attack so now I walk him on a long line for free time until he recovers emotionally and can ignore other dogs in the distance..WHICH HE HAD been doing lately…until now again…we’re starting from square one….
Education is key, and there will always be people who don’t care or just ignore the fact that their dog has issues and it’s up to others to “train’ their dogs for them Some people just don’t know where to start…so it’s up to us to make up for them in the meantime.
I’m at the point of buying Feisty Fido copies just to keep in my backpack and hand it over to those dog owners….who really should be the ones with leashed dogs.
Renee says
Great discussion, again. Wish I had time to read each and every comment. My dog, Bennie, is not aggressive. But he is reactive in many contexts, and he struggles with how to greet both dogs and humans appropriately. He used to think that the best way to handle any creature moving toward us while he was on leash was to administer a quick ‘nip’ (usually grabbing a piece of clothing, thankfully, rather than a piece of human). Yes, he is one of those herding dogs. I have spent the last three years trying to help him learn his manners. With rare exeptions for good friends, there are no on leash greetings of any approaching human or dog until everyone stops, and Bennie sits and waits for my signal to “go say hi”.
I want to mention my technique for training humans not to approach us while we are working on settling into a sit/stay. I turn to the human and raise my hand in a classic ‘stay’ signal. I then say WAIT as clearly and distinctly as possible. Believe it or not – most humans get that signal and actually pause long enough for me to quickly ask them not to approach. I guess visual cues work for humans as well as dogs!
Alexandra says
Trisha – I have trained both of my dogs to do the emergency sit/stay in your Feisty Fido book and it is a life saver. My older, reactive dog required the assistance of a professional trainer to get it down, but I was able to train my younger dog to do it on my own. I have never gotten the treat thing to work, but the sit/stay has saved my dogs from being in quite a few scrapes with off leash dogs. Just having that extra second to get in a body block (or even a physical block if necessary… like many a dog owner here I’d rather risk a bite myself than see either of my dogs be injured) to divert an onrushing dog will diffuse a lot of fights before they start.
I would like to add that the emergency sit/stay also works great if you have to body block a human who has rushed up as well! 😉
Holly says
Love all the techniques being suggested for deflecting attacks from off-lead, OOC (out of control) dogs. Just curious – has anyone ever used pepper spray or a spray bottle of white vinegar in such an instance? I don’t walk my Dalmatians (no O please!) in my neighborhood simply because of the 2 or 3 dogs that might pop up in odd spots along the route. I’ve considered both techniques, but haven’t talked to anyone who’s used either.
Thanks, as always, for GREAT discussions!
JJ says
re: “you first teach what we call an
Alexandra says
re Holly: I choose not to carry pepper spray because I don’t feel I can aim it reliably while securely holding two 60-lb dogs. My sherriff’s deputy friend says it is very effective, but you have to be aware that it can take a few seconds to start working. If I need to get physical with a loose dog I will kick it.
re JJ and proofing: It’s been my experience that if I get completely surprised or the loose dog(s) get within about 5 ft of me, no amount of proofing will make things perfect. Over time I have been able to convince my dogs that “hey, I got this” but they are perfectly ready to help me at the drop of a hat. They know I don’t want the loose dog around, they’ve been attacked before, so they want to help defend the pack. So, no, the sit/stay isn’t always perfect, and sometimes it’s pretty ugly. What my work has done however, is allow me tomimmediately regain control of my dogs after the loose dog has been made to back off a little.
Alexandra says
A last thing I forgot to add is that my area does have leash laws and I call Animal Control to report every instance of and aggressive off leash dog. Animal Control can only take action if they hear about these things. I used to feel badly about it because it’s the dog not the owner that will suffer the worst consequences, but I see this problem so often (I average about one incident a month) that I no longer have any sympathy for those owners where my safety is concerned.
Alexandra says
Ack, I keep thinking of things. I started my serious proofing by having friends with known, friendly dogs run by off leash (in a fenced area obviously). From there I worked up to having our trainer’s strange dogs barking on cue nearby and recalling past us while they were loose and mine were leashed. Finally, I worked my sit/stay in front of houses where dogs charged their fence, invisible fence, or tether and I was confident they wouldn’t actually get loose. I also proofed close heeling of my dogs under these circumstances. Everything after that was just doing the best I could under real circumstances. Most of the time we do all right, but it’s still scary and never perfect. We’ve never been hurt thank goodness, so I call that success. Hope that is helpful on the proofing subject.
Catherine says
This is a great thread and very timely for me, as I have observed some changes over the past few months in my dog’s reactions to other dogs. At age 3, he used to be very eager to meet other dogs and would generally meet them with friendly, cheerful (and occasionally too excited/eager to play) body language. Now, at age 4, I am seeing a shift that concerns me greatly. After several instances where he was on leash and unleashed dogs rushed up to him and overwhelmed him, and a recent instance where we visited the property of two unleashed resident dogs who acted territorial toward him despite his calming moves like sniffing and lying down, he now stiffens more frequently when other dogs greet him. I used to take him to the dog park frequently and he loved it with only rare exception – a couple of spats in the course of the first year. Recently, the negative experiences have become more frequent, and I’ve decided not to go back, at least for the foreseeable future. I’m feeling horrible for having put him in situations that made him uncomfortable. I am reading Calming Signals and will try out some of those techniques, but I would really like advice on how to improve things.
Elizabeth says
I am so happy I found this book and this site.
My husband and I adopted a 35 lb terrier mix from the SPCA in Baltimore about 2 months ago. We live in the city and said to the adoption counselors that we needed a dog who was good with other dogs. This little guy seemed pretty mellow and was a recommended match. Come to find out (once we got him home) that he was actually quite sick with kennel cough and had to be quarantined for 2 months. Thus the “mellow” demeanor.
In truth, he’s a spunky and intelligent guy with a lot of energy. He’s taking well to training. But he is not good around other dogs.
He gets so over excited and hyper, pulling on the leash, barking, etc. He goes right up to a dogs face, which subsequently causes the other dog to become aggressive since this isn’t how it’s done. My dog doesn’t appear to be aggressive in any way. Our trainer (who is at her wit’s end over this!) says he’s “maniacal.” I can’t even get this normally sweet dog to calm, sit, or even consider settling down around another dog.
I see tons of literature and advice for dog-on-dog aggression, but have found little in the way of socializing a dog who is overly hyper and clearly never learned how to speak “dog” in the first place. (We assume he was taken away from litter mates and was never properly socialized).
If any of you have suggestions, I would be so grateful!
– Elizabeth
komol chowdhury says
hello
He gets so over excited and hyper,He goes right up to a dogs face, which subsequently causes the other dog to become aggressive since this isn’t how it’s done