In preparation for a talk I’ll be giving soon in Madison, WI about the mental lives of animals, I’ve been reading Subliminal, by Leonard Mlodinow. I highly recommend it; Mlodinow elaborates on our increasing, and sometimes unsettling knowledge about the power of our unconscious. Here’s a talk given by the author himself about the topic. (He also gets my vote for the best cover ever of a book: If you check it out on Amazon you can’t tell that, in person, you can only see part of the cover until the light hits it just right. I burst out laughing after I’d purchased the book while thinking: “This cover is beyond strange” and then discovered the full cover while walking out of the bookstore.)
This is relevant to my upcoming talk (and my fascination with the cognitive life of non-human animals) because there has been so much discussion lately about whether animals are or are not conscious. At first blush the suggestion that animals are not conscious entities is reminiscent of Descartes’ argument centuries ago that, without language, animals are more akin to mechanical objects than to humans. Argh. However, the current conversation is motivated by a far more nuanced view, which is based on the knowledge that most of what we humans do is generated by our unconscious, not the part of our inner life that we are aware of. I’m raising it here to speculate about how much of our behavior around our dogs is based on our unconscious. (FYI, we talked about Consciousness in Dogs in a post in August.)
Certainly, examples abound of the power of our unconscious in all aspects of life: People rate food as tasting better if it was described on the menu as “crispy chicken” or “slow-roasted beets,” versus plain old chicken or plain old beets. (Or presumably, “soggy chicken” and “raw, dirty beets.”). A detergent was rated as more effective if it came in a blue and yellow box instead of an all-blue or all-yellow box. Speakers are rated as more intelligent if they talk faster than others. As importantly, people are extremely resistant to believing that such factors have any influence on them at all: I’m reminded of some in the medical professions arguing that they were above being influenced by free and luxurious presents from drug companies. We are so very fond of our ability to be rational that we become downright irrational when hearing the facts about our own behavior.
All this has me thinking: What then, might be influencing our behavior around dogs? We know that many external factors can cause people to be more or less patient, and more or less aggressive around others. We know that physical appearance has a strong influence on our perceptions and expectations of others. Close to home, I’m thinking of the fact that our new dog, Maggie, has eyebrows that are shaped like a surprised or happy person. She also has one ear up and one ear down, which adds to her slap-happy look. Is that part of the reason that just looking at her makes me melt? I’m about as gobsmacked in love with Maggie as it is possible to be with a dog, in spite of her not-yet-but-really-any-minute-now-fixed habit of counter surfing, which resulted in her consumption of a good part of a leg of lamb defrosting on the kitchen counter. Of course, I knew it was my fault not hers, but still, all I could do was laugh about it. Would I have been so amused if she had a different face? I’d like to think so, but . . .
What about you? Granted, we simply can’t know all the things that are influencing us–there is no translator between the conscious part of your brain and the unconscious part. But we can make guesses and I’d love to hear yours.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: Fall is in full swing. We woke up Saturday morning to a frosty farm, with the temperature a few degrees below freezing. However, there is still a lot of beauty and color. Here are some hardy Salvia flowers, highlighted by one of my fall favorites, Solomen’s Seal with bright yellow leaves and navy blue berries.
The passing of seasons feels especially bittersweet for us, because on Friday we said goodbye to two special ewes, Barbie and Rosebud. Both ewes suffered from OPP (Ovine Progressive Pneumonia) and we felt that it was kinder to put them down now rather than make them get through another winter. Both ewes were having trouble breathing comfortably, so they are now in that great pasture in the sky. Barbie was known for being a great mother to her lambs, her intolerance of the lambs of others, and her, uh, lack of knowledge that sheep are supposed to be docile and defenseless. She had a total of 14 lambs for us, for which we will always be grateful. Here she is with her last two, Holstein and White Guy. Thanks Barbie, you had quite a run.
Jane Leaf says
I don’t know what influenced me, but against all I know is sensible, I adopted my boy, Boomer from a photo on GSRAW! I had lost another shepherd mix to cancer and was ready to adopt, so was looking online at German Shepherd Rescue Alliance of Wisconsin when I saw his picture. He also had one ear up and one down. There was something about his face….and he was 6 yrs. old. I was completely flummoxed by my reaction! My brain was telling me to think and my heart said go for it. So I made a phone call and they checked me out at our vet, made a home visit and Boomer was a part of our family. He had skin issues, an abcessed tooth and sores between his toes. We cleared it all up and he has been my buddy from day one, now going on five years. I still don’t understand my attraction, but I know it happened against all rational thinking. I am his person in this family. 🙂
Barb Stanek says
I know that I am unconsciously influence by not only my dogs’ looks, but also their medical history if it has been rocky. My girl went undiagnosed with a medical condition for three and a half year. While she is fine now, with seemingly no lingering effects, I am influenced by guilt! Even though I had no knowledge of her disease and no way to cure it on my own, I still find myself wishing I had taken her to the vet who helped years earlier. As a direct result of my guilt (I think), this brilliant girl gets more breaks from me when she chooses not to do something, is allowed more excuses in training, and, you won’t be surprised to hear this, trains me beautifully. Her brothers shake their heads at me at what I let the girl get away with! I have to be purposefully aware of my behavior with this girl.
Trish kirby says
I’m sorry for you all about having to put Barbie and rosebud down and especially for Holstein and white guy :-(. Are the lambs that size now or is that an older picture? They seem to always stay close to their moms, well at least in the pictures you’ve shown. I remember salts broken leg and how they all stayed together while he healed.
I think I might subconsciously treat Simon and Bell differently because of their gender.
Mary Brandstetter says
First, the talk by Mlodinow made me squirm uncomfortably in my seat for a number of reasons which I won’t go into. More of interest to me was your description of Maggie’s face and your ability to laugh off her counter surfing transgression. My breed of choice is the husky, which has vast differences in facial markings. I have long felt that the dog’s perceived expression (those with the mask who look like they’re getting ready to hold up a liquor store vs. the white faced ones) influences how we treat them. I firmly believe that the white faced dogs are thought to be more open and honest and the ones with spectacles or masks are thought to be more mischievous or devious. Very interesting!
Beth says
The argument over whether or not animals are conscious is one of those “scientific” questions that flies in the face of evolution. Complex attributes do not just arise fully fledged in one species without having existed in a simpler form in other animals. We did not jump from animals that were only able to walk to animals that could fly from Alaska to Mexico with no intermediary step. We did not go from eye spots to full color binocular vision in one step. We did not jump from single celled animals to giraffes with nothing in between.
If humans have COMPLEX consciousness then of course other animals have some level of consciousness. It can’t not be, unless one does not believe in evolution.
I think I mentioned in the last entry about consciousness that there seems to be no debate in the literature that animals have executive function. I’m not sure how to define executive function without acknowledging consciousness.
That said, the reverse is also true and of course much of what we do is instinctive, or based on some more “primitive” assessment of things. We are attracted to people with symmetrical features because it is one sign of good genetic health, but we don’t use analysis to determine this. Our ancestors who were attracted to symmetry were more successful than those who were not, and so we have a strong internal bias towards it.
Our ancestors who saw a cousin eaten by a tiger and thereafter were afraid of all tigers were much more likely to survive than our ancestors who said “Well, maybe THIS tiger is friendly; let’s give him a chance.” And while those sorts of generalizations can increase our survival chances, they also increase our readiness to be prejudiced. The one follows the other. Unfortunately in our modern societies this tendency to stereotype or generalize causes so many problems and so much hurt, but it has a strong evolutionary basis. It’s much easier to overcome harmful bias if we recognize the role of the subconscious in all of this.
So often we try to build logical arguments around why we make subconscious judgements, because as is mentioned above we want so much to think of ourselves as governed by logic and not by our primitive brain.
Of course how we interact with our dogs is based on our subconscious. We don’t really understand all the workings of our subconscious brain. How much is instinct? How much is the brain doing fast computations based on the sum total of all of our interactions in the past to arrive at answers faster than we could possibly think them through?
My Madison tends to let her oversized ears droop to half-mast when she is a bit mentally tired or confused. It makes her look sad, and even though I’m pretty sure she ISN’T sad, I react as if she were. It usually makes me stop whatever I was asking her to do (which in itself is probably good because she is signaling that she is done), and give her ear scratches and cuddles, which she adores. But because it gets such a strong response, I amy highly suspicious that she has learned to sort of perform the behavior to manipulate us and get what she wants. Bossy Jack will openly rebel if he has a strong opinion about something. But sweet docile Maddie would never dream of doing that, and so she has come up with her own way….. Sometimes I wonder who trains whom, exactly?
Martina says
Now I’ve got an image of counter surfing Maggie in my head 🙂
Only last week I was extremely proud of myself because I finally managed to take a photo of Mailo trying to reach the counter. I posted that picture on facebook as proof that Cavaliers reach a shoulder height of 80 cm 🙂 When my Golden tries this kind of stunt, I first call him off and then take a picture of the damage.
And speaking of Cavaliers, my partner didn’t want a black & tan because their faces often look as if they were wearing a mask, that’s why Mailo is tri-color.
Trisha says
To Martina: Love the image of the “tall” Cav trying to reach the counter top. I will not show that photo to Tootsie, who would leap over the Grand Canyon for food if she thought she had the slightest chance of success.
To Mary: I’m curious why Mlodinow’s talk made you squirm. I haven’t watched all of it, am finishing the book now. Care to tell us any more details?
To Barb: Boy do I get the issue of medical history and our perceptions of dogs. If Willie doesn’t do certain things I am quick to attribute it to his shoulder. Would I do that with another dog if I didn’t know its history of shoulder trouble? Probably not. I’m not sure how conscious or unconscious all those attributions are, but they are certainly there.
To Beth: I agree absolutely that it is doubtful that consciousness is an either/or entity. We are joined by one of the world’s most pre-eminent neurobiologists, Guilio Tononi, so we are in good company. However, there are many issues (that are indeed in the realm of science… I’m not sure why you put “scientific” in quotes) that remain to be addressed. First and foremost, who are we talking about when we talk about “animals?” Most people think of mammals, but mammals are extremely rare. There are 450,000 or so species of beetles, and about 5,400 species of mammals. Are beetles conscious? Where do we first start seeing signs of it? And what would “semi-consciousness” look like? Feel like? That’s where I think things get really interesting, and those are all questions that science can help us answer. Yes?
Barb says
My husband is sure influenced by it being ‘his’ dog versus mine that does something destructive. If it is one of the family dogs he gets upset if it is his own service dog he shakes his head and is over it. Even when his favorite Star Trek dvd was chewed up. It is not a concious thing he just loves his dog
Beth says
Reposting from my phone: computer issues.
My discomfort is with the question of whether or not animals have consciousness. It is very similar to an earlier argument insisting that animals don’t have emotions. Questions about whether or not ALL animals have consciousness, or when it arose in evolution, or how animal consciousness differs from ours, are all valid. But arguing whether or not “animals” do is what completely rubs me the wrong way. Honestly, it seems to me to have its feet firmly in an earlier time when it was thought that humans were unique among all creation, as opposed to a more modern perspective which is meant to see humans as simply points along a continuum. I mean, we are all unique but we are not something completely separate from other animals.
It seems to me that whenever another way we are supposedly unique is disproved, science as a body tries to come up with another way that humans are set apart. So first we said only humans have emotion. We found that was not true. Then we said only humans have language. Now we know that may not be true. Then we said only humans use tools. But nope, they don’t. So now the new flavor is that perhaps animals don’t have consciousness?
Paula says
Oh, I’m sure we are very influenced by looks. My mom is the perfect example. She firmly believes that any floppy eared mutt is a sweet dog no matter if she’s never met him. I’ve never observed any fixed pattern like that on myself but I can’t be trusted to make observations on myself 🙂
LisaW says
What influences me has changed drastically over the past few years. Living and working with a dog with issues has greatly altered my behavior and response to almost everything. I now recognize certain mannerisms, stances, twitches, head tilts, responses in her and other dogs that I was heretofore unconscious of. I am also now drawn to dogs that seem very smart but have something amiss. I think this new world Olive has led me into has opened up a dimension of appreciation and attraction that I wasn’t aware of previously.
For example: We were visiting my mother at her independent living community, and as we were going in the door, a resident came out with a dog she had just adopted from the south. We stopped, and I looked at her dog and noticed a certain look in the dog’s eyes and a stance that signaled to me she was a little anxious and still trying to sort out where she was and what she should pay attention to, but she had a focus that belied some other thoughts running through her brain. I said softly as we walked away, “That dog has some issues; I really liked that dog.” Turns out the dog does have some issues and a trainer has been brought in to help.
Of course, it doesn’t hurt that Olive is seriously cute. Her appearance was and still is a definite factor in some of my responses to her. If we are stopped at a traffic light, and the person in the car next to us looks over and smiles, I know Olive has popped her head out the window. She makes just about everyone who sees her respond with a smile or grin.
Marjorie says
So sorry to hear of the loss of your sweet Barbie & Rosebud.
In regards to the unconscious, it is the most powerful force of nature we will ever encounter. You really need to read Dr.Carl Jung’s work. Yes, we unconsciously affect our family, pets, environment ect. In your theraputic work Trish you might be very interested in Jung’s work on counter transference of the unconscious. In delving into the unconscious reading Jung is a must.
Linda Hill says
I’ve noticed a version of this with my two retrievers. They are litter mates and Pet Partners. One is very calm, solidly built, square, blocky and beefy. He’s always been very people centric and comfortable with eye contact and touch. The majority of people he meets respond with “awwww…” The other has a definite upward slant to his eyes, still has loose skin like a puppy and the tendon running from his knee upward is slightly short giving him an extra waggy walk. He always looks like he’s laughing and ready for a good time. The reaction he provokes in people is invariably a big grin and a chuckle. As they’ve grown (now age 8) it has been interesting to watch how they seem to inhabit these roles in their interactions and how people’s responses seem to be a fairly consistent reaction to their appearance.
Beth says
Hmmmm. It seems there is perhaps a certain level of consensus?
http://news.discovery.com/human/genetics/animals-consciousness-mammals-birds-octopus-120824.htm
em says
Woo boy. I see the evidence of subconscious influence on human perceptions of and interactions with animals all the time.
Sometimes it’s only momentary and very barely beneath the surface- people who instinctively recoil from huge, black, muscular Otis before their brains register how placid and non-threatening his body language actually is. In seconds (or less), the flincher relaxes and laughs, often stretching out their hands to him. This is pretty harmless- people know that their initial reaction was instinctive and their rational assessment overcomes it almost at once. The drives that led them to react are quite adaptive- a big, strong animal IS potentially dangerous and while his color may not be exactly relevant, I suspect that the visual impact of a black object is more startling to the eye and unconscious brain- perhaps for the same reasons that wasps attack him more readily than they do brown Sandy and autofocus cameras can’t focus on him- black makes things both really noticeable (in daylight) and hard to see clearly which can be very unnerving, even if we’re not fully aware of the effect.
Sometimes, however, I think that unconscious influences can be both more persistent and more potentially damaging. I am thinking particularly of the tendency to perceive animal behavior differently based on ‘back story’. This can be a good thing, encouraging patience and kindness, but it can be bad, too. My pet peeve is the term “rescue” to talk about dogs adopted from shelters or breed organizations. It bothers me because it has an inherently negative association, as if dogs “in rescue” were all saved from danger, abuse, and hardship.
I see this as problematic for two reasons. First, it carries a certain value judgement- what kind of a person would get a dog from a breeder or a neighbor when there are dogs who need to be rescued? Isn’t it our moral responsibility to do all that we can? At the very least, this can lead to unnecessary and undeserved nastiness between dog lovers who really should be on the same side of any number of debates. At worst, it can lead people experiencing social pressure to make poor decisions about whether a particular dog is truly the best choice for them, or even (sadly) about whether a dog should be deemed adoptable at all.
Second, the term “rescued” implies that the dog is damaged goods- that they’ve been traumatized and emotionally scarred. Aside from the fact that it’s not always true (at all!), and can lead people to turn AWAY from adopting a perfectly good, problem-free dog from a shelter, I’d argue that repeating the term traps people in the habit of thinking of their dogs that way, which can have many potentially negative consequences.
Everybody’s likely familiar with cases where “oh, she’s a rescue” becomes an excuse for tolerating behavior that it would be kinder and more appropriate to address, but I’d argue that the term is also dangerous because of how perceptive and sensitive dogs can be to our expectations, especially when faced with novel situations. Many and many is the time I’ve seen a tense, expecting-the-worst owner tip an uncertain dog from nervousness to explosion, or a confident, happy owner carry an unsure dog forward past their worry. I just don’t think it helps dogs to think of them as “rescued”.
My preferred term is “adopted” for all dogs because I don’t think it matters where a dog came from or what kind of transaction was concluded to bring him into your family, what he has become is part of the family. ‘Adopted’, to me, connotes a relationship where the dog (or cat) was wanted and accepted, loved and cared for- not taken on as a possession or a charity case. (And to all those I run across now and again who insist that the exchange of money means that a dog from a breeder is “bought” rather than anything else, I’d encourage you to look into the fees for human adoption these days. To me, the place a pet dog came from matters less than the place that they occupy when they arrive-as part of the family).
In any case, I don’t like the term “rescued” because it makes pet adoption sound like pure altruism- taking on a burden, rather than an avenue to obtaining a desired and desirable pet.
OK, enough ranting for now! I look forward to reading more comments like the excellent ones above. Thank you, Trisha, for another wonderful topic.
Alexis says
Did I read on this blog that consciousness is one part of the brain communicating with another part of the brain? It’s a great way to think about it. No doubt my dog’s brain is in communication with itself and with me.
I’m training with a 10 month old Standard Poodle. After having several poodles rescues over the last 20 years (and others) I wanted to try a puppy. I have no doubt about her consciousness as she is far smarter than me. The trainer is working with me to get me in shape. I think I have a long way to go. I’m learning with the new way of training (all positive) Standards are so smart and sensitive they can be a challenge.
As a kid I lived in South America. Little monkeys were everywhere…I loved them. Attraction by association? I was also attracted to the circus and love the way poodles move and dance onstage. So there you have it the perfect retirement career is the circus with my black poodle friend (who is really a bird dog).
So sorry about the sheep…beautiful creatures….
Marjorie says
You stated that “there is no translator between the conscious part of your brain and the unconscious part.” Well that is NOT true. The dream is our connection to the unconscious and all creatures dream (even snakes & lizzards!), for sure dogs dream. Dreaming is also essential to our biology and survival.
Lori Symmonds says
I just adopted my first small breed dog, a toy spaniel mix. There is definitely something unconscious affecting my perception of her. Her tiny size? Her huge eyes and fuzzy ears? She is actually braver and tougher than my 60 lb. lab mix, but I find that I view her as vulnerable and I tend to be more protective with her. Example: after her vaccinations she was sore and tired and even felt a bit warm – this is a reaction that wouldn’t have made me overly concerned in my large dog, but I fretted over the little one as if she was on death’s door. Her personality is pretty independent and feisty, so I think it is definitely something about her physical attributes that brings out the nurturing instinct. I don’t know what exactly it is, but it surprises me! It is not rational.
Pam says
A few days ago my adult daughter was at my house visiting. My two Std. Poodles were so excited to see her, because they especially adore her. we were all sitting on the floor and they were just so excited as they loved on her. it was not until my older poodle purposely came and specifically laid down beside me that I realized how left out I was feeling. ha! ha! I think my poodle was very definitely picking up on something I wasn’t completely aware of. not sure if that was unconscious, or more emotion, but either way, I thought it was pretty cool.
Russell Hartstein says
The unspoken taboo. Why is a leg of lamb on the counter of an animal lover? Unless it is attached to the rest of the lambs body standing on your counter. As you know, sentient beings all feel pain, suffering and love just as you, I and Maggie.
CHeryl Bartlett says
“At first blush the suggestion that animals are not conscious entities is reminiscent of Descartes’ argument centuries ago that, without language, animals are more akin to mechanical objects than to humans. ”
My question is – who defines what “language” is and what it consists of?
I have always been of the belief that every species has their own specific language – whatever form that takes. Just because it is not the same as human speech does not mean it is not “language”.
Because a mute or deaf person cannot speak does that mean they don’t have “language” ? Of course they do – their hands and facial expressions – “body language”. Our dogs have verbal and body language, – it’s just not the same as ours.
Trisha says
I hear all of you who are concerned about a “regression” to arguing that animals don’t “feel” or “experience emotions” or
“think” because of the question of consciousness. But my post, and the book I wrote about, is about the fact that humans operate primarily from our unconscious, and that the question of animal consciousness is as much motivated by an understanding that we don’t use our conscious brains any where near as much as we think we do. Thus, much of this new conversation is not motivated by an interest in furthering a divide between people and animals, but the reverse. Much of the new research, and the book Subliminal, is arguing that although we may be impressed by our busy neocortex and our rationality, it turns out that we use it relatively rarely. We just fool ourselves into thinking that our decisions are carefully thought out and rational, when in actuality, they are not. That makes us more like other mammals, not less. I find it interesting that most of the comments don’t address the issue or the question raised, “How much of your behavior around dogs is driven by your unconscious,” but are written in defense of the mental complexity of animals, not about our mental states, which is the point of the book. Hmmm.
Trisha says
To Russell: Yes, I am a meat eater. I was a vegetarian for several years, but went back to eating meat for a variety of reasons, in part because I see it as an ethical thing to do if done in certain ways. It is a decision and an action taking with tremendous thought and consideration. (Each year I teach a class titled “The Biology and Philosophy of Human/Animal Relationships” in which we spend no small amount of time discussing different philosophical perspectives regarding our relationships with other animals, including meat eating, and the biological reality of agriculture.) As a result of years of thought and continual study, there are many kinds of meat I either don’t eat or eat rarely. In general, I restrict my meat eating to animals that have been raised in ways that are benevolent to them during their lives and are equally benevolent to the earth and the environment. That eliminates many types of food, and each year I modify my behavior some depending on what I have learned that year, but I am very comfortable with the decision I have made. It is true that I eat much less meat now than what I was raised on (meat, peas or green beans and a baked potato every night), but our freezer now is full of local, organically raised pork, our own lamb and chickens raised on grass just a few miles from our own farm. I have great respect for people who have chosen to not eat meat if their decision is based on an understanding of the biology of meat consumption and a carefully thought out ethic regarding how to relate to non-human animals. Maybe someday you could take my course and we could debate all this at length together!
Rose says
So, how do you train a dog not to countersurf? I don’t even know where to begin wih that one.
Ginny Weimer says
Insightful. The very topic I’ve been wrestling with myself concerning my new dog, adopted 18 months ago from a “rescue organization”. We had been searching for a dog for 6 months before Kidd arrived. He is unlike any of my previous Lab family members, a big, blocky cream and a lively, naughty black. He is a handsome caramel color , with dark eyes that show a crescent moon of white when he looks at you. His nose turns up in a way that makes me suspect there may be Beagle or Setter in his family tree. He is friendly to us and to the others who come to visit, including my granddaughter. I am no stranger to counter-surfing. My other Labs did it, I do it, but this dog has taken the sport to new heights! Anything contained in a plastic bag is his trigger. Kidd quickly became devoted to me, and my husband to him.
As per my contract with him on adoption day he is kind to the animals who come and go from my home as paying guests (I have an in- home pet-sitting service). He still likes to bedevil the cat but that situation has improved- he is trying to comply with house rules. He passed obedience class with flying colors.
Kidd developed an elbow tendonopathy shortly after he came to live with me. Although I’ve attended to his medical needs, his high energy level reinjures his elbow so he limps. He doesn’t complain; he still loves his ball and Frisbee, but the limp is there to remind me.
In spite of his looks and his benign behavior I find myself unbonded to him. I have been trying to understand why. Maybe this book will help. I regret that I’ll miss your talk later this month, T. I’m sorry to know that you’ve lost Rosebud and Barbie.
Russell Hartstein says
Hi Patricia, thank you for being so brave and responding to my question. Let me start off by stating I think you are wonderful and I enjoy your writing and insights very much. However, we have large differences of opinion on this topic. 🙂 Allow me to ask a few follow ups based on your response.
I would like to dispel the myth of “humane” killing. This oxymoron pervades the marketing and advertising paradigm and preys on consumers psych. Just ask yourself, how would you feel if someone claimed to “humanely” kill Maggie or your human family?
Compassion does not discriminate.
Just as it is readily apparent to most people that dogs are sentient and conscious beings (excluding Ray Coppinger) extending that compassion and rationalization to all animals is not a stretch.
There are 3 pillars for not killing others/sentient beings.
1. Compassion for others who can feel just as you, myself, Maggie and companion animals
2. The environment
3. Our health
Regarding “I see it as an ethical thing to do” please expand on how it is ethical to kill others?
It is a moral imperative to not harm others who can feel. Focusing on what we all have in common (feelings and emotions) rather than speciesism and discriminating against our superficial differences has caused more misinformation and death than all the genocides, holocausts and world wars combined.
Regarding your statement, “there are many kinds of meat I either don’t eat or eat rarely.” From a scientific perspective that we all feel and have a vast array of rich emotions, what’s the difference between eating a pig, dog, cat, horse, cow, or even a human, gasp!? Some cultures do it and attempt to condemn or justify killing others with a host of rationalizations. The reality is black and white; we unnecessarily eat, enslave, exploit and kill others without discrimination, based superficially on looks, species or because we enjoy the taste, or we do not eat and kill others for obvious ethical and moral reasons because taste is irrelevant when steeling someone else’s life and because eating meat is unnecessary for a healthy life. From a standpoint of our shared similarities it is all the same.
At many points in history other humans discriminated against others: based on looks (slavery), gender (woman’s rights/suffragettes) sexual preferences (homophobia), religions (KKK, and anti-Semitism)…etc. Even today, these are sadly still traditions that are popular amongst some less informed and cruel. If it is not right to discriminate against humans and some animals why is it rationalized to exploit, enslave, rape and kill others? Some people have a hard time with the word rape. However if we anthropomorphize for a minute and think of what we would describe as tying someone down and removing their ability to move, then artificially impregnating them against their will, many have no problem understanding that we rape animals every year in the order of billions, for unnecessary meat consumption that is destroying our planet, our health and nonhuman animals.
Regarding your sentence “It is true that I eat much less meat now than what I was raised on” I would make a large distinction and change to include WHO not only what you were raised on. It is imperative that we refer to animals as WHO not WHAT, as they are sentient beings and not inanimate objects here on earth for our exploitation. We are all earthlings that want to live as much as the next being.
Regarding, “I restrict my meat eating to animals that have been raised in ways that are benevolent to them during their lives and are equally benevolent to the earth and the environment” It has been scientifically proven time and time again that raising animals for food consumption is not earth friendly and destroys our planet (and health) http://www.amazon.com/Eating-Earth-Environmental-Ethics-Dietary/dp/019939184X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412768996&sr=8-1&keywords=lisa+kemmerer+eating+earth
http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-carbon-footprint-diet
I would urge you to read The China Study (if you have not already)
Regarding the “raised benevolently” myth, I would implore you to read this article http://freefromharm.org/animal-products-and-ethics/a-comprehensive-analysis-of-the-humane-farming-myth/
Some wonderful resources written by fellow compassionate colleagues in our industry and many others are listed under my Resources page titled “Advocacy/Veganism” http://www.funpawcare.com/resources/
However, if I had to point you or anyone interested in compassion or the subject to one resource it would be http://freefromharm.org/ “Free From Harm”, this is a wonderful resource chock-full of articles and science from PhD’s, scholars and noted authors.
Of course Marc Bekoffs writings are important as well and included on my web page.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/200912/who-we-eat-is-moral-question-vegans-have-nothing-defend
Thank you for bringing light to this seemingly taboo subject amongst those who claim they love animals and then eat them. I would like to leave you with one quote
“Thousands of people who say they “love” animals sit down once or twice a day to enjoy the flesh of creatures who have been utterly deprived of everything that could make their lives worth living and who endured the awful suffering and the terror of the abattoirs.” – Jane Goodall
Alexis says
You make a good point about our responses. A good reminder to pause and think more critically before I blog…oh no!
The meat eating issue is so personal I wouldn’t want to assume I knew what others should eat. I eat organic farm-raised chicken and turkey…can’t eat wheat, corn or beans…or dairy products and don’t want to eat too much soy.
liz says
Tough question since we are indeed very skilled at coming up with justifications for our choices thus making our lives the product of consciousness. If I ask myself, “What do I do with the dogs that I have little control over or reason behind?” then I can generate this list: sing to them, talk to them as if they were human, joke with them (pretty sure dogs don’t do sarcasm), give them more freedom than is probably wise in remote wilderness areas, take them on an impractical number of wilderness walks lest I feel like their ‘dogness’ is being squelched… And there’s probably more, but it’s an interesting split for me between interacting with them like humans vs. dogs, then perhaps overcompensating in the other direction.
A lot of The Other End of the Leash type things come to mind, which I guess begs the question of whether we consider choices based on instinct unconscious choices? Is instinct a category within the unconscious?
My condolences for the losses at Redstart Farm.
Trish kirby says
To Russell : I feel the same way you do about loving animals/ mammals and how we kill them and eat them… I’m just a lazy Hippocrate and bothered by it often.
To Trisha : the topic of consciousness/unconsciousness is complex and not easily understood, so maybe we Unconsciously reverted back to discussing how we felt about consciousness in animals? :-). At my level of understanding it’s hard for me to think of unconsciousness as anything other than being knocked unconscious or as under anesthesia. Being unaware that your body or mind is aware. If you were aware then you would be concious. Yikes
Sylvia Teague says
As much as I’d like to say that unconscious thoughts don’t control or come into play in my interactions with dogs, I can’t. The choices I have made regarding my dog’s initial training, diet, medical care, were done very consciously, with lots of research and sometimes going against what I “felt” (unconsciously) wasn’t right.
Of course when I acquired him, most of the decision making regarding the breed, coloration, and temperament were almost entirely done unconsciously. The only “conscious” choice I made was to drive to his breeders home. LOL
Michelle says
I know that when I groom if I am conscious of my emotions I am better able to control them so the dog is more relaxed & more receptive.
Beth says
Russell, I won’t debate point by point because this isn’t the place for that. But as I read the article on dairy cows, one thought kept crossing my mind—- without humans, there would be no such thing as a dairy cow. To say that we should not drink milk because of the points raised in the article is to make the existential argument, on behalf of all of cowdom, that it is better to never have lived than to have lived as a dairy cow. For those are the two options: there is really no alternative where we keep large numbers of cows as curiosities or pets and let them live the natural life of cows.
As a conscious being myself who would very much rather have the chance at living a life that has moments of pain and fear and hardship, but also moments of joy and peace and companionship, I can say that I am not personally comfortable making the ethical argument that dairy cows would rather never have lived than live as they do now.
Even though vegans are not intentionally making the opposite argument, that would be the end result of everyone becoming vegan. With the exception of a few gentlemen farmers who just like to have the animals around, dairy cows would no longer exist. They would not be living natural lives where they choose their mates and raise their young as they please. They would not be living at all.
Beth says
Trisha, I agree with Trish Kirby’s remark above: it’s such a complex issue that it is hard for me to tease out what is subconscious, what is conscious, and what is instinct? The conscious mind can process information at such a rate that we are not completely aware of how we arose at a decision, but it was actually a conscious decision. I distinctly remember, as a young driver, getting myself in trouble taking a curve at too fast a speed. As I felt the outside tires start to lift off the pavement, I had a rapid series of thoughts of all I knew about braking, speed, and steering and having those thoughts go through my head in a split-second. It would probably have taken me 30 seconds to a minute to speak through the whole chain of options, but in my high-adrenaline state I was able to weigh all options in about one second and make a very conscious decision on what to do. A quick but firm tap on the brakes brought the speed down enough without compromising steering long enough to matter and I learned an important lesson about paying attention to on ramps on highways. But I also learned a surprising lesson that our thought processes can happen much faster than we would think possible.
So if I hear one of my dogs bark and instantly know if it is an alarm bark, an attention bark, a play bark, etc, is that my subconscious? Is that my conscious mind running down a list of learned information faster than I can really notice? Is it instinct based on the age-old need to discern meaning from the different cries of infants? Where is the line drawn? I don’t know that I understand it well enough to articulate which is which.
Thoughts and ideas bubble up and down between our subconscious and conscious so fluidly that I find it hard to have a firm idea of which is which.
diane says
I can look back on my life and now (that I am older) can see what may have influence my behavior and choices. Back then, I could not….and I probably can’t see some of the influences of my current behavior or choices. There’s a lot to brain function and I can’t say I control everything I do, think, or react to. This is way beyond me, but extremely interesting. I registered for your talk and certainly look forward to it!
Trish kirby says
So we basically go through life thinking that we make decisions based on information from what we learn or perceive to be truth when actually what we perceive as truth is info from how our unconsciousness perceives it? And then we act on that unconscious perception? Just jotting down some thoughts with my morning coffee.
I did find it interesting how our conscious mind is so easily manipulated by optical illusion influenced by our unconscious perception.
Nic1 says
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26258662
Is unconscious behaviour the ‘hidden auto-pilot’ as described here? System 1 and System 2?
http://bigthink.com/errors-we-live-by/kahnemans-mind-clarifying-biases
‘But then there is another system in your mind that is intuitive, fast and automatic. This fast way of thinking is incredibly powerful, but totally hidden. It is so powerful, it is actually responsible for most of the things that you say, do, think and believe.
And yet you have no idea this is happening. This system is your hidden auto-pilot, and it has a mind of its own. It is sometimes known as the stranger within.
Most of the time, our fast, intuitive mind is in control, efficiently taking charge of all the thousands of decisions we make each day. The problem comes when we allow our fast, intuitive system to make decisions that we really should pass over to our slow, logical system. This is where the mistakes creep in.
Our thinking is riddled with systematic mistakes known to psychologists as cognitive biases. And they affect everything we do. They make us spend impulsively, be overly influenced by what other people think. They affect our beliefs, our opinions, and our decisions, and we have no idea it is happening.’
Hmmmm……. the human condition? Flawed isn’t it when you look at it this way?
Gerd Gigerenzer also thinks there is a lot of benefit to heuristic thinbking too with regard to ‘decision making.’ We think we are in control of most of the decisions we are making with our rational thinking, yet it would seem that we already make the decisions before we rationalise it.
Not sure if I am on the right wavelength here but that is what I understand by conscious and unconscious thought processes. When it comes to our dogs, perhaps they make intuitive decisions as they lack rational thought? When out and about with my dog I have learned to pay attention to that feeling in my gut much more…
Nic1 says
Is this an example of unconscious processing?
Yesterday travelling home on the train I happened to look out of the window after being completely engrossed in a book for the last 20 minutes. What made me look out? Not sure, but my immediate reaction was, ‘I don’t recognise where I am.’ I then attempted to rationalise; ‘don’t worry, you have been completely engrossed so you’re probably a bit disoriented. How can you recognise exactly where you are in the countryside? You definitely got on the right train – correct platform, left on time etc.’ and so on…however, I had a nagging doubt and growing anxiety. I alerted the guard who informed me I was on the train to York, not Hull. The wrong train!
The strange thing is, both trains take the same route for the first 20 minutes or so, the York train then detours. Not obviously, it basically takes a junction whilst still travelling. I was distracted to look out of the window just after it detours. Is that an unconscious reaction.
This was a later time of day I was travelling and the train on the platform where I departed was actually two separate trains, although it looked like one. The front two carriages go to York, the latter two to Hull. They leave about two minutes apart. Because I was in auto pilot, I made an incorrect assumption. At other times of day, the York train leaves from another platform.
So two separate unconscious processes?
Christina says
I think about this sort of thing a lot in my work as a trial lawyer. At a basic level, litigation is a matter of presenting evidence to a decision-maker in such a way as to persuade that person (the judge, juror, mediator) to decide an issue on way or the other. There is a whole side-industry of trial consultants who study how people make decisions and advise lawyers about how to be more persuasive. I was stunned and fascinated to learn some of the ways the human brain works that we are normally entirely unaware of. Just one example – if you make a claim in writing, readers are more likely to believe the claim is true when there is a picture with it, even though the picture doesn’t prove the statement is true. There are more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/06/30/psychology-explains-why-people-are-so-easily-duped/ When I am presenting an argument to a judge or a case to a jury, I need to present the facts and the law, but I know I need to do it in such a way to tap into that part of the person’s brain that clicks and says “Yes, this makes sense. This is Right; that is Wrong.” And the more I learn, the more I know that that is the subconscious working.
Can you tell I’m excited about this subject? It’s where my legal career and my interest in animal behavior and cognition and my agility teaching intersect 🙂 I’ve been thinking about going back to school to study this subject (in my late 40s – ack!)
So, my answer is obviously yes, our decisions and actions in all aspects of our lives, even our relationships with our dogs, are influenced by our subconscious.
Nic1 says
‘As Dennett (1991, p. 251) put it, “in biology, we have learned to resist the temptation to explain design in organisms by positing a single great Intelligence that does all the work… We must build up the same resistance to the temptation to explain action as arising from the imperatives of an internal action-orderer who does too much of the work.” Especially, we would add, when there now exist such promising leads to how human behavior is generated and guided within the domain of unconscious processes.’
http://www.yale.edu/acmelab/articles/BarghMorsella_UBGS_final.pdf
Food for conscious thought!
Kathy says
To Rose,
I don’t know if it would work for you, but here’s how we trained our GSD mix, Rainy, not to counter-surf. We prepared about a dozen aluminum soda cans with about 10 pennies inside each one and duct taped them shut. Then we cooked up a nice piece of chicken and put it into an empty cottage cheese container and taped that shut too. Then we poked a bunch of holes in the cottage cheese container. (we didn’t want her to be able to eat any of the chicken, inadvertently positively rewarding her for counter-surfing)
We balanced a cookie sheet on the edge of the counter with the chicken container on the forward edge, a pyramid of those soda cans on the back edge, and the whole thing balanced on the fulcrum of the counter edge so that the slightest touch would send the whole pile crashing to the floor.
Then we retired to the living room with all three of our dogs as usual and turned on the tv. About 5 minutes after we went in there, Rainy got up casually and headed for the kitchen. We waited. When we heard the CRASH, we both leaped up shouting, “oh no! What just happened! Oh no!” and various other things. The other two dogs, startled out of a sound sleep, also leaped up barking ferociously, and we all charged into the kitchen to find poor Rainy cowering against the cupboards. We tsked tsked, cleaned up the kitchen and left the room.
She never counter-surfed again. We made sure to feed her in the kitchen as usual later that evening (and every day afterwards) so that she wouldn’t generalize her terrifying experience to the room itself, and we were very solicitous and kind to her in the living room–after all, she had just lived through a very scary, completely inexplicable attack by a bunch of soda cans on the mean counter.
LisaW says
I think this short article from the Atlantic illustrates at least the subliminal sensory influences on our brain: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/05/your-gullible-brain/359806/
And, an interesting article that posits that plants see, feel, smell, hear, and remember. Conscious, sentient beings?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-plants-think-daniel-chamovitz/
Mireille says
oh yes…. Spot, he makes my heart melt. He’s a real ladies man as well, he even melts my mothers heart. Oh gosh, that makes her sound awful, but what I mean is she is not really a dog person and not given to emotional display but with Spot she goes all gooye (sp??) eyed 🙂
I mean, who can resist this guy? http://www.hondenpage.com/foto/foto/306234.jpg
And who will believe he singlehandedly killed a young deer. By ripping out his throat. I keep telling myself that to prevent myself form becoming sloppy with safety (as in keeping doors closed etc). Whereas Shadow, a bi-eye with a dark face mask, looks much fiercer but is in fact a softer dog that can be more easily trained. Yet people seldom want to pet him. And he truly loves kids but they fear him…http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-StVzpP5grsQ/U-kRleGi1AI/AAAAAAAACPQ/NBS1IYB9EhE/s1600/IMG_8454.jpg
Janouk had a somewhat worried look because of his mask, so when he died I felt a bit sorry for the fact that we could not have given him a happier life. Then I started looking at pictures and lo and behold, I saw a happy dog ;-). I remember sometimes feeling irritated with him because of his sad look (“didn’t I give you enough attention?”) and I truly think that was partly due to his markings.
HFR says
This is going to sound ridiculous but I try to be conscious of my unconscious. Unconscious thoughts are so often tied up with prejudices that I have worked hard at being aware of them if not always conquering them. For instance, if I see a fat person on the train I find myself wanting to think less of them (and I am not thin by any means, so I’m not sure what that says about my own self-image) and will “unconsciously ” try to sit away from that person.
With my dogs, I have one that is a much more beautiful dog than the other. As much as I fight it, I know I show that one more attention than the other. So I don’t succeed in conquering my unconscious all of the time. But at least I try.
A lot of our unconscious makes up our personalities. I don’t find it surprising that we are ruled by the “stranger within” but I don’t think we are slaves to it.
Nic1 says
Agreed HFR. Our human brain allows us to understand somne of the differences and to work on our behaviour and hopefully make better decisions about heuristics or sterotyping. Gut decisions can be incredibly informative, but not always correct within a context or environment. A bit how dogs are learning all the time from their environment – a dog may develop a fear or dislike of medium brown dogs because they got attacked by one and haven’t had any other positive experiences to learn anything different? A dog can’t rationalise it’s way out of it because it’s not conscious in that capacity? However, we can.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/14/steve-peters-chimp-paradox_n_5321142.html
This is a nice simple model and based on neuroscience about how we can hijack our lives by overly reacting to our own emotions and instincts. It provides a simple model framework to teach people how to be proactive in managing and changing their behaviour.
I’m not sure I fully understand it all, but I definitely recognise that sometimes I feel things that I don’t understand and are not immediately obvious why!
Trisha says
To Nic1: Interesting summary re the “human” brain and the “chimp” brain. So many things it brings up! One–it is just as “human” to have an active emotional side as it is chimp; I’m always amused at how we like to claim the parts of ourselves that we think are the most admirable. (One of the points of Subliminal is that our Unconscious brain is pretty damn good at what it does, often better than our rational and aware mental activities. That said, I agree wholeheartedly with Peters that we can learn to distinguish what’s driving our behavior by becoming more aware of all that is going on internally. I’ve found that meditation is the best way for me to do that: That “I” am not the emotion or even the thought that is passing through me like clouds over the sky, but the sky itself.
Trisha says
I should have added to HFR, that it is absolutely true that you can become more aware of what you haven’t been aware of! That point too is made in the book Subliminal, that you can become
at least aware that you are being influenced by the color of the box, or a song that is playing in the store or the smell of cinnamon in the airport. That awareness can help you decide which decision is a better one, at least some of the time!
And to LisaW: Love the new research about plants. I saw a special about that topic on public television that was riveting. I knew that plants competed for space, light, nutrition, etc, but who knew that “mother” trees selectively sent nutrition through their roots to trees that had grown up around them from their own seeds, but not to other trees in the same area? Wow. Love it.
Trisha says
Re counter surfing: Rose, I’ve successfully used the method that Kathy describes so well with my own dogs and with client dogs. Some people object because it is punishment, but what I like about it is that it separates the consequence from you. This helps maintain a bond of trust between you and your dog, and also eliminates the dog learning to jump up whenever your attention is distracted (which they do almost instantly). The trick is to match the “surprise” with the dog’s sensitivity. I’d never use that method on, for example, a new sound sensitive dog who wasn’t comfortable in the house. That’s part of my excuse 🙂 about Maggie… she was cautious about the house for awhile, and I wanted to be sure she was comfortable around us and the house. One could argue that I should’ve gotten my act together sooner (although I’m sure Maggie wouldn’t!) but I’m not worried that we won’t get this under control. She is still a kid after all… I don’t expect dogs like her (active, inquisitive, mouthy) to be trustable alone in a house until they are 3 or 4, so Maggie has a long way to go.
Trisha says
Christina: I love hearing about your work as a trial attorney and the importance of knowing what influences a jury’s decision. I love hearing about your excitement of combining the law and animal behavior, such a great integration of fields! I think you are going to love the book Subliminal, if you haven’t read it already. (Note that if I was saying this out loud I would have been speaking relatively fast and thus would be judged to be more intelligent.)
Beth says
Regarding counter surfing:
I successfully used this device to deter Maddie, who had learned to nose open a cupboard and raid the garbage can.
http://www.amazon.com/Ssscat-PDT00-13914-SSSCAT-Cat-Training/dp/B000RIA95G
It had the unwanted side effect of making Jack think that it was very dangerous for US to open the same cupboard, and barking frantically at us whenever we went to do so. However, after seeing that the horrible hissing snakes did not attack us, he quickly stopped worrying about it.
Ironically, the device was worthless for what we bought it for, which was keeping the cat off the table. She quickly learned to scout the area for the spray can and only avoid the table if it was out and regularly activated.
Mireille says
One of the most interesting pieces of research I read in the past year was about decision making by physicians. It was about trusting gut feelings, the importance of the “there’s something rotten in the state of Denmark” feeling (the Dutch proverb is somewhat shorter) and how some physicians seem to have it and others do not. It was studied by Stolper et al to see whether GP’s were right, on what their decision was based and if you can develop such a sense. In general older GP’s with more experience tend to do better. More info can be found here http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2296/10/17/
The awareness that these gut feelings come from knowledge gained in the past in combination with pattern recognition (or should I say observing that things do not fit a pattern) and the recognition that GP’s are more often right than wrong in this, has led to more respect for these gut feelings. In my own work as a clinical microbiologist, I also start to develop a feeling for “this is out of the ordinary, this does not fit, we should do more tests/change the antibiotic/send the consultant back to the patient to gain more info etc”. Since I am now working with a less experienced colleague, I feel compelled to explain where my uneasiness comes form, which is very good, because it makes me aware of my unconscious thoughts.
(by the way, unconscious behaviour, very funny if we discuss a scabies outbreak, by the end everybody is scratching themselves, or if I give a talk about how Staph aureus spreads by people touching noses and than touching patients, a lot of people get an itchy nose. )
About dreams linking conscious to unconscious: isn’t that only the case if you remember the dream? The difficulty there being, we can’t ask our dogs if they remember theirs…
Beverly Ann Hebert says
Trisha, this just appeared in the NY Times – my brain is in a whirl 🙂
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/opinion/sunday/are-we-really-conscious.html?ref=opinion
Robin Jackson says
Regarding countersurfing…booby-traps work with some dogs, don’t deter other dogs at all, and create fallout behaviours in still others, including secondary aggression.
DOGS ARE SMART
I know several poodles whose owners tried booby-traps to deter countersurfing. The dogs quickly figured out what was going on. One would stand on her hind legs peering into the room first, to see if any traps were in place. Another saw the traps as a delightful food puzzle, learning to jump up quickly and hit the cookie sheet, then leap back, letting everything fall to the floor and then dashing in to get the prize.
DOGS ARE BRAVE
I know a German Shepherd, appropriately named “Tank” who decided well, if that’s what it took, that’s what it took, and would stand there stoically as the cans fell, again grabbing the food prize at the end.
BUT SOME DOGS LEARN THE WRONG LESSON
And I have known more than one dog who would turn and snap the next time they were startled, one reason I would not recommend a boobytrap protocol for a household with young children.
YOU’RE NOT FOOLING THE DOG–OR THE KIDS
Speaking of subliminal…it’s very likely that the person setting the boobytrap will feel a momentary surge of glee when they hear the trap go off. This sense of power and victory is one of the reasons it’s so difficult to talk people out of using punishment protocols. They are very rewarding to the punisher. It’s also very likely that everyone around, including the dog affected by the trap, and any other dogs and children in the room, will recognize the glee even if the trapsetter themselves does not.
I know one family where the adults were attempting to use a boobytrap protocol on the family dog, and their 8 year old, unbeknownst to them, began setting other booby-traps around the house for the dog and cat to set off. When ultimately found out and asked what he was doing, the child said, “I’m teaching Charlie to be a good dog.” Another reason I don’t recommend boobytrap protocols in households with young children.
SOME ALTERNATIVES
Instead of trying to mimic a natural aversive consequence, you can start by removing the natural rewarding consequence. Don’t give the dog access to food on the counter, and much of the behavior will extinguish naturally.
In our house, my teens were encouraged to put meals-in-progress in the microwave, cold oven, or an empty breadbox if they had to leave the kitchen briefly. We even had an empty breadbox on the counter for just this purpose.
If you’re a foodie who regularly makes 6 course meals and has counters covered with food prep, invest in a good babygate with a swingaway latch that’s easy for the people to use and just keep the dogs out of the kitchen. Yes, the dogs can get over the gate if they’re left alone in the house for a few hours, but we’re talking about interrupted food prep while you go to answer the door or whatever.
INSTALL AN ALTERNATE DEFAULT BEHAVIOUR
My dogs never get food in the kitchen. However, right around the corner from the kitchen is the Magic Mat.
Bit of food magically appear on this mat quite often. Frequently when someone is cooking in the kitchen. It is also the ONLY place in the house where the dogs get bacon.
There are no verbal cues that go along with this. The dogs realise someone is cooking in the kitchen. They go to check it out. Bacon is tossed onto the Magic Mat, or a bit of meat or whatever. Bingo!
Most dogs very quickly start hanging out on the mat. A lot. 🙂 And they will run to the mat as soon as they hear food prep going on.
A lot of people put the Magic Mat right in the kitchen–I find it works better if it’s just around the corner, but I’m sure it varies by dog.
My son has come home more than once to find a dog waiting on the Magic Mat, around the corner from the kitchen, with a clear question of “When are you going to start dinner?” But they don’t hang around in the kitchen itself, because, hey, no reward history for doing that.
BTW, we don’t feed our dogs their own meals on the Magic Mat, that’s in another room entirely. The Magic Mat is associated with people food and food prep. But not with dogs being in the kitchen.
Some people do this with a cued Go to Mat behaviour, as in this classic article from Aidan Bindoff:
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1034
But I’ve found the simple fact that the Magic Mat is the place where goodies appear is enough to do the trick.
Anyway, just some more alternatives to consider.
Nic1 says
Mireille, fascinating to read your post! My work in laboratory medicine also has led me to trust my gut too. It’s experience that gives you the confidence to trust your gut. I always remember my friend, who is a paediatrician, telling me the tale that she insisted on sending a patient for an MRI after he threw up in her office. She just felt ‘something wasn’t right’. She had not much history at that stage, or other diagnostic test results, yet the scan showed the kid had a brain tumour.
I recommend any books by Gerd Gigernzer on this subject. ‘Risk Savvy’, ‘Gut Feelings.’ Gerd’s concerns are that in ome of our professional lives, relying on your intuition too much can unfortunately lead to suspicion. The problem is, most governments don’t seem to be enthusiastic about behavioural science. He argues that we need more effective tools in place in our lives to understand when to use our rationale and when to rely on our gut – recognition heuristics.
In ‘Risk Savvy’ there is an example of an experienced investment banker calling the chair of the board at midnight to tell him he had a bad feeling about the big business investment they were about to make the next day. He was brushed off due to lack of evidence, and the deal went ahead. The banker was proved correct as the bank got into serious financial trouble on the back of that deal and very nearly collapsed as a result. The management board paid attention fortuntely and made it policy that if any senior and experienced member of the team ever had a similar feeling in the future, then no deal would go ahead. They researched and understood that one simply cannot articulate gut feelings because they are not about hardcore evidence, they are based on experience and our unconscious that can’t be quantitated or measured.
Nic1 says
Robin – absolutely love the ‘Magic Mat.’ I think one is going to have to magically appear in the utility room, round the corner from the kitchen tomorrow!
🙂
Beth with the Corgis says
Robin, I like the idea of a Magic Mat, but would also like to add my own experience with training uncued behaviors— they too can have unintended consequences.
My Madison had started to creep more and more forward on her “time for bed” cue to go in her crate. She was to the point where she was only half in/ half out. I rarely lock my dogs in crates, but if I need to it is frequently a mild emergency, so having to stuff the dog into the crate all the way so I can close the door is not appealing.
Rather than try to retrain the cue, I started waiting and staring at the ceiling for her to offer me something better. I rewarded first one front paw in, then two front paws. I rewarded two front paws for a short time, then started waiting for her to withdraw her head as well.
She is, shall we say, a slow thinker. So I would say “time for bed” and treat speedy Jack, then stand and wait… wait… wait for Maddie to stare at me for a long time, and then in slow motion pull one paw in, then another. Finally she started pulling her head in too and I was very pleased, thinking “that worked well!”
Until one day, we were going somewhere and I decided to give the dogs a bigger dental chew on the way out the door. Generally, Jack runs into the living room with his and stares at it for awhile, prolonging his joyful anticipation. Madison takes hers in her open crate, eats it in two or three bites and then goes nosing after Jack.
Since I usually referee this but was about to head out the door, I gave Jack his and then watched him trot away and waited a good minute til I heard him chewing. I then turned around to give Madison hers… and found her plastered in the far back of the crate, pressed against the wire with a clearly worried look on her face, trying to figure out why backing up further and further (which had produced the reward before) no longer got a response from me. She literally could not possibly back up any further.
There was no true harm done, but I felt pretty bad about muddling her poor head with a change in the rules of the game (from her point of view). It made me think about what uncued behaviors might seem like from the dog’s point of view.
I have seen other dogs, including my Jack, frantically start offering random behaviors to make the treat appear if they are certain they get a treat in a typical situation but are not sure what, exactly, triggers the treat. So if you are not very careful you might get a dog who mistakenly thinks the treat comes when he goes to the mat and shuffles his feet, or goes to the mat and barks, or goes to the mat and spins….. if you are sort of tossing treats when distracted and just noticing the dog is on the mat, a very smart and proactive dog might misinterpret which behavior you are warning and you can end up with chained behavior you do not really want.
Every method has its pros and cons, I think.
HFR says
I think the boobytrap technique is too aversive for me. I certainly get the point that the advantage is that it doesn’t connect the punishment to the owner, but I don’t think I would ever be able to use a training method that causes my dog to cower in the corner. Even tho it’s not you doing it, the results are still the same as if you would raise a hand to a dog that had been hit before. It’s stil fear. I’d rather my dog get something that I stupidly left on the counter then cause them that kind of stress. I realize that in the realm of aversive techniques, this one is not very severe, but I still dont think it’s a good one. My 2 cents.
Trisha says
To HRF: I’d never use a method that “caused a dog to cower in a corner.” Oh my. “Booby traps,” as I mentioned earlier, can work well on stable dogs and IF the consequence was just enough to deter the behavior. There are lots of dogs I’d never use even a mild booby trap on (my Cav Tootsie is one) but many dogs have no problem discovering something isn’t fun, and so not doing it any more. There’s so much I want to say here: I keep typing things, erasing, and rewritng: I’ve learned that a sign that I need to be writing a blog, not a comment. Perhaps a post sometime on whether we can, and should, raise dogs who never experience anything aversive? (I’m sure that would get no response or attention at all. You think?)
Beth says
Oh goodness, trying to think of a response that does not offend, but imagine a life where the worst thing that happened to you was that you were startled once? The consequence of counter-surfing (in terms of a sick or dead dog in a severe case– eating bones or enough fat to get pancreatitis) can certainly be much worse than the consequence of being startled, yes?
In the case where I used the compressed air to startle Maddie away from the bin, I had to use it once and then again about a year later. She underwent about 30 seconds of moderate stress where she left the room looking worried. I thought it was better than risking her dragging something out of the garbage that was harmful, and yes I admit it was better than having her claw at my cabinets if I installed baby locks. And I would argue less stress for her long-term then keeping her forever baby-gated out of the kitchen when no one was watching her.
Imagine if we raised our children this way? Thinking that having them get startled once was too negative a consequence to even consider?
I agree there are dogs we should not do this to. I would never have used the scat cat device on my last cat— a foundling who was terrified of everything; it would have made her never again return to the room where the air can was. This was a cat who never in her whole life went into the kitchen because she was afraid of the ceiling fan, even when it was not spinning.
But for my current batch of (blessedly) mentally sound animals, an occasional moment of being startled is not overwhelmingly traumatic.
I agree it’s a worthy topic for a blog.
Beth says
As an afterthought, this reminds me of my parents’ now senior citizen Chessie, who used to sometimes jump at the back door as an adolescent. Til one day she knocked the magnetic curtain rod down and it fell on her head. It wasn’t heavy enough to hurt, but it did startle the heck out of her. She is afraid of neither kitchen nor door, but you can believe she never again jumped up on that door. Not an intentional booby trap, but it worked nonetheless.
Trish Kirby says
So I’m having a little emergency and I could use some advice to get me by for a few days until I contact a behaviorist in my area. My Bella almost BIT me tonight! I have obviously failed at my attempt to be the benevolent leader of my dogs. Bella’s not buying it. I’m guessing it’s not important the reason she felt the need to snap at me and the story would be too long and probably Inacurate just being from my inexperienced point of view of the episode.
I’ve read ” how to be the leader of the pack and have your dog love you for it” and I believe it says that if your dog lunges or snaps at you that you should ignore her for a few days…well I can do that but I’m not sure why I’m doing it…actually it will be easy because I’m Pissed! Well actually for a split second as it was happening I was startled and scared, then very angry and now sad. Any advice would be appreciated.
To keep on topic with this blog, Ive had a GUT feeling that this could probably happen with my Bell and although it’s always possible with any dog, I would say my Gut tells me it’s not probable with my Simon. Bella was insecure and fearful when she first came home to me. I’m sure I’ve unconsciously shown signs of being unsure and fearful myself around her. Oh lord, we both need to see the behaviorist!
Robin Jackson says
@Trisha,
My sympathies on the writing and erasing thing! You are very much to be commended for writing a blog that attracts such a lively variety of readers, with a wonderful mix of different experiences and education. And of course opinions. But I’m sure it does often make it a challenge to keep a particular thread on track!
As far as aversive experiences go….every organism is going to have some aversive experiences in life. And in the case of kids and companion animals, some will be introduced by the caregiver as an unfortunate necessity, such as essential medical procedures. Or baths. 🙂
The real, but very different, question is what happens (to both teacher and student) when a teacher intentionally induces otherwise unnecessary fear or pain in order to create a learning experience.
That’s the one that dog trainers will argue, I would guess, until the end of time. It goes right back to the topic of the subliminal, because almost everyone who intentionally induces pain or fear as a learning technique argues that they do so dispassionately, logically, moderately, and consciously. And that they are personally effective in predicting the outcome for any individual learner before it occurs. Most of the studies indicate there’s a whole lot more going on.
Respectfully,
Robin J.
HFR says
So sorry Trisha, I should have been more clear that I was referencing the post from Kathy above. She says she found her dog “cowering against the cupboards” (not in a corner, I stand corrected).
I’m not by any means a completely non-aversive zealot. I’m more in the camp of being a wuss when it comes to causing my dogs trauma like that. I realize sometimes it can’t be avoided especially in situations of danger. But I don’t consider counter-surfing, the majority of the time anyway, dangerous. Anyway, I’m really just reacting to the word “cower” and it’s connotations of trauma.
Oh yes, this would be a fun blog post indeed!
Trisha says
Quickly… (leaving tomorrow for 9 days, extra crazy day at work for variety of reasons): Thanks to all for such thoughtful comments. I am always impressed by the thoughtful responses and conversations that this blog has generated, thanks to so many intelligent and measured readers. A dose of oxytocin to you all.
To Trish Kirby, whose dog Bella “almost” bit her last night. First, I am so very, very sorry. It always feels like something of a betrayal when a dog you love threatens to use, or uses it’s teeth as a weapon on you. It helps I think to remind yourself that it can be your dog’s version of yelling at you. Some yelling is understandable and justified (“I’m so frustrated!”), some yelling is not (“I hate you, you worthless person.”) But what matters after the fact is figuring out how to prevent it in the future. Trish, if you’d like to be a case study I’d be happy to monitor the conversation. Be aware that I’m traveling tomorrow, giving a Keynote talk at APDT to a gazillion people on Wednesday morning about People, Dogs and Trauma (and am a tad anxious about it) and will be swept up in the conference for the rest of the week. That means I can only comment myself sporadically, but I have tremendous faith in the readers and would be happy to chime in when I can. If you’d like to tell us more, let me know and we can go from there.
Beth says
Robin, I think there is a psychological difference between fear and a startle response. My smoke alarms sure startle me when they go off. And I do whatever I can to avoid setting them off. But I would not say I’m afraid of them.
liz says
Trish K, regardless of details, I’d tell any friend waiting for professional advice that whenever I have a setback, I regroup. I know that eventually I will have a new plan to address everything. But…until I have the info needed to make that plan, I can get ahold on the relationship while avoiding the circumstances that got me into trouble. So by “regroup” I mean: tighten up my communication- be clear and well-timed, consider my words when speaking to them (and not casually speak like their humans as I often do), and be aware as possible of any emotion coming through in my tone. Part two of regrouping is rethinking the routine- have I spent any one on one time with them? Done any ‘refresher training’? Played much,etc.?
The goal is to be safe and make yourself and your dog feel better about where you are at while knowing you have some new work ahead of you. I’d also tell any friend that that sucks, big time, and I am sorry for the stress on everyone.
Nic1 says
Beth, call it fear or startling, it still follows the same aversive conditioning with regard to neurobiology.
Intellectually, your human brain can perhaps rationalise a difference in your perception of the stimulus. A dog doesn’t have the equipment to do this. As previously mentioned, it would depend on the individual dog’s resilience, but lacking a cue for threat, a dog cannot identify periods of danger and safety and could remain in a chronic state of anxiety using startle techniques such as this.
If you are intentionally using a startle technique when other management and non aversive approaches could be explored first, why would you choose that option I wonder?
Robin Jackson says
@Beth,
That might indeed be an argument if the booby trap was only a motion detector alarm. However, the ones described on this thread so far describe the cookie tray protocol, which involves intentionally stacking items to fall down on the dog when they begin exploring the counter. I guarantee that will generate more than just a startle in most dogs, and that indeed, that’s the trainer’s intent. They want the dog to come away with the sense that countersurfing has bad consequences for the dog.
The commercially available booby-traps that mimic snakes hissing also rely on a fear reaction, not just a startle.
Respectfully,
Robin J.
Trish Kirby says
To Trisha, I would like to be a case study, thank you very much! I’ve always felt you had exceptionally knowledgeable readers following your blog and I would appreciate their advice. I’m not sure how to go about being a case study, where should we start?
To Liz, thank you for that calming advice. I have regrouped a bit at least emotionally. So far I haven’t spoken to or made eye contact with Bella since 7 pm last night. It’s not easy coming home from work greeted by full body wags and excitement from that girl and I just totally ignored her.
LisaW says
Beth wrote: “My smoke alarms sure startle me when they go off. And I do whatever I can to avoid setting them off. But I would not say I’m afraid of them.”
That’s because you know they are there, you know what they are for, and you know what they sound like. Now imagine walking into your bathroom and all of a sudden a high-decibel noise went off, lights flashed, and something fell on your head. You wouldn’t be scared? I sure would be.
To me, our house is our dogs’ safe place. That doesn’t mean nothing ever startles them or gives them a scare, but it does mean it is not by my hand (at least consciously).
Beth says
Nic1, if you would like to outline for me a positive reinforcement training method I could instead use to keep my dog from nosing open the cupboard to reach the garbage bin when no one is home, I would be genuinely happy to hear it. I’m not being sarcastic or facetious. I DID look into it and could not find any sort of way to train an animal, using only positives, away from engaging in self-rewarding behaviors when no one is home.
My other options were: 1) Have no garbage can inside the house at all and move it to the attached garage. A nuisance but possible in summer, a major drain on heating bills in the winter. My house design has no enclosed space for a can except under the cupboard. 2) Gate the dog out of the kitchen all the time, which would have meant moving her crate and water dishes and would have been more stressful to her than what I did, since she was already used to having run off the house. (When we had to gate her out of the upstairs because of seizures, it took her quite a long time to stop looking worried about her new lack of access to the steps). Or 3) Lock the cupboards. Miss Paws would have then clawed at the cupboard trying to open it, since she is a pawer. Call me mean, but having my almost-new cherry cabinets ruined was really not an acceptable alternative to me.
So we had one brief instant where the dog was startled by a can of compressed air hissing when she stuck her head in the cupboard. The dog left the room looking worried. The other dog barked. And that was that. Neither dog is afraid of the kitchen, the cupboard, or the garbage bin but Maddie now thinks sticking her head in the cabinet is a bad idea. Which I see as a good thing.
The dogs have been much more startled by the real cat leaping from around corners to box them in the head, or by me knocking over a broom or dropping something off the counter Or by the hard-wired smoke alarms going off when I make bacon— all 7 in the house go off at once and it is loud and sends one dog to the door, barking hysterically, and the other hiding behind the toilet. In fact, after being scratched in the eye by the cat, Jack will no longer walk into the living room in the dark without an escort unless he knows the cat is safely locked away somewhere.
The difference is intent: I did not intend to startle the dogs with the cat or the smoke alarm or the dropped objects. But the actual result was greater alarm from all three than from the can of compressed air.
When I am ready to pass into the great beyond, there are several things in my life that I will feel guilty about, more than one involving ways in which I let my animals down. But I am quite confident that I will not give too much thought to the time that Maddie had some air hiss in her face and was successfully cured of raiding the garbage. Could I predict with 100% certainty how she would react to the air? Well, no, but having had her for some time and knowing how she responds to being startled, I was as confident as is reasonable to be that there would be no lasting harm. I prefer positive methods when possible. But I am not so opposed to aversives that I would rather permanently restructure my life than use a noise to keep the dog out of the trash. PEOPLE are also difficult to train, and I cannot guarantee that there will never ever be anything dangerous in the garbage. Having heard of more than one person who lost a dog to suffocation from a head stuck in a chip bag, I would really rather have the double protection of the humans trained to not put anything dangerous in the bin PLUS the dog not snooping in the bin.
Trish Kirby says
…also I want to thank you Trisha for your kind words and advice while managing your busy schedule, it means a lot. It was comforting to think that it was probably frustration causing bella to act out like that.
On being nervous about speaking on Wednesday, don’t be! Did someone forget to tell you how Awesome you are? 🙂
Beth says
Trish Kirby, I am so sorry your Bella snapped at you! Without knowing the circumstances it’s hard to speculate on what happened. I will say that I would personally not ignore a dog for more than a couple minutes, since after that I don’t think they any longer associate the punishment with the “crime” and only know that somehow things have changed. If you have an insecure dog this could make her even less trustful of the situation.
I might know a little how you feel. I think anyone who has read my posts know that Jack is my heart dog and I think the sun rises and sets over him. He’s my partner, my rule-keeper and time-reminder, my friend and playmate, and absolutely bombproof with kids and dogs and people. He was registered as a therapy dog and I regularly use him to help people socialize unpredictable dogs, especially “alpha wannabes”, and also to help people with pushy puppies. I have taken food right from his mouth and he has been a saint through any number of less-than-ideal experiences with people who are not so good with dogs.
And yet— he snarled at me. I don’t mean a little growl, I mean a full lip-curled, hard-eyed, stiff-eared snarl. I was alarmed and then mad and then a little bit heartbroken that my best buddy was being so fierce with me, and then I had a long think about what happened.
The situation was this: It was winter. He found a mitten in the park. He thought it was a great toy. Another dog that he knows and gets along with came over to try to snatch his mitten. Jack will, in very specific circumstances, resource guard with other dogs (in other instances, he can literally share a bowl of human food with another dog— it’s only certain things he guards). As a high-status dog, generally if he gives hard eyes and shifts his “prize” from another dog, they leave. In this case, though, sweet Dolly really wanted that mitten and Jack had moved away several times.
Fearing a fight, I said “leave it” and he did not. So I went to take it from him while Dolly was standing just past me. And then came the snarl.
In hindsight, I don’t even know if the snarl was at me or at the other dog who was nearby. I think it was directed at me. In reviewing the situation, it seems that he found an item he REALLY liked, it was truly “his” because he found it and we were outside on neutral territory, he hadn’t had a chance to figure out what fun he might have with it, another dog was after it, he was already under stress and in guarding mode from having the other dog hovering to snatch it, and then I came along and tried to steal it too.
Regardless, when I replayed the circumstances and thought of all the other times when many dogs would have growled, but he was softly compliant, I felt like I understood his side of the story a bit better.
Just the other day the cat stole a cooked rabbit leg from our plates and took it to the ground, and Jack stole it from the cat. I was able to literally reach into his mouth and pull the meaty bone from it without even a hard eye from him. Once, to my horror, a sweet little lady on a park bench saw him eating a stick and she pinched the corners of his mouth yelling “Drop it! Drop it!” before I could even react, and he did not even flick an ear. He is not a dog who is quick to growl. But there is one circumstance where he will growl at me and that is when he has something he highly prizes (a toy, not food), AND he just got possession of that item, AND another dog is circling and tries to steal it, and I try to take it from him.
So now I know. And I simply manage the situation differently when I run into this rare occurrence.
I don’t mean to make this about my dogs, but rather to illustrate that even very, very, very good dogs can have certain circumstances that put them over threshold. So I would suggest that when you are calm, to leave the room and go someplace quiet and play over in your head the entire scenario. Not just what happened when she snapped at you, but what was happening around you at the time? And what preceded this? Was she feeling stressed from something else? Sick? In pain? Were there things other than you in the area that might have made her feel edgy or cornered?
I hope you find your answers. It does not mean you are a bad leader. It does not mean she’s a bad dog— or a mean one. It simply means that at that moment, in those circumstances, she was overwhelmed enough with negative emotion to lash out. I have heard it said that dogs don’t “almost” bite us; they are very fast and if they mean to, they usually connect unless we are very prepared and react super quick ourselves. Usually a miss is meant to miss and it was a warning. That does not mean everything is fine, but a careful review may find multiple triggers that were not obvious until after the event had passed.
Trisha says
So much to talk about regarding “startle,” “fear,” “aversives,” “positive,” etc etc! I really do think this requires a post sometime. I’ll say now that this is one of those issues that I’d argue is full of many shades of grey (no, not the book!). Or, perhaps I should say many hues of color between black and white. All I can say now is that my opinion is “It Depends.” (Sorry!) But I do think this is an important area of discussion and appreciate all your contributions. Such an important topic… (but is a blog post enough? a book maybe? eeeps!)
Beth says
Whoops, Trish K, I just read the blurb on “How to Be Leader of the Pack” and now realize you were referring to ignoring Bella as part of a NILF-type program, not as an immediate consequence to snapping at you. Please ignore that part of what I said about not ignoring the dog, since I don’t know the whole program nor where you are in it!
Beth says
Lisa W, I would never set up a trap such as you mentioned. That would indeed be overkill, and at least to my dogs probably traumatic. A high-decibel sound is pain, not a startle response at all. Having a painful sound and flashing lights and something fall on my head at random times is quite a lot different than the more natural consequence of opening a door (or climbing on a counter) and have something hiss at you or fall and rattle at you, wouldn’t you agree? Degree does matter.
We are not talking about a hypothetical because I actually used the air on my actual dog, and I assure you she correctly associated it with the intended action (sticking her head in the cupboard) and does not suffer an lingering trauma. She will indeed stand right by the very same garbage when my husband changes it, or nose a dropped cheerio off the floor right in front of the cupboard in question. She does see my house as a safe place, and especially the kitchen where she has her crate and is fed and gets treats. In fact, she is probably waiting for me there right now, hoping for one last treat before bed, lying down in her crate. Unless she has moved on to the couch and is already asleep.
Nic1 says
To be honest Trisha, I tend to agree with the philosophy of the late and truly great Sophia Yin. She didn’t rule out any means of getting a behavioural change if it could save an animal’s life, including aversives. In her experience with companion animals though, 99% of behavioural problems could be resolved with positive reinforcement and negative punishment.
I have a potential bin raider although she is a bit too small to counter surf effectively, so no reinforcement history. The bin is emptied whenever we leave her and she has been so massively reinforced for laying down and sitting in the kitchen that it is now default behaviour whenever I am in there. I am going to try the Magic Mat though as it sounds like fun! 🙂
Trish Kirby says
Beth, thank you for sharing your experience and advice, It really does help. Jack sounds wonderful :-).
My situation was this: we just got home after a great weekend away and before we even got into the back door Bella started acting ( this is where I have a hard time describing her behavior, I call it MOODY) mean towards my boy dog Simon.
Simon and Bella are the same age, 1 and a half yrs old. Actually Bell is probably one or two months younger than Simon.
So Bella starts STARING and growling, not showing teeth, at Simon. Simon just looks away and walks away when she does this. I open the door and Bell an I walk in, Simon stays on the back step at the threshold of the door just looking in, he knows Bella is MOODY too. The door is still open. I start to get their dinner ready and Bella gets more intense. She’s next to me and staring at Simon who is still at the back door and won’t come in. She’s giving some deep growls and hard stares at him. He has done nothing as far as I can tell, unless he’s sending some doggy vibes that I’m not aware of.
So I say “Bella stop it, that’s enough”. I stand directly in front of her and try to back her up with body blocks. She’s not moving and trying to look at Simon between my legs and around me, anything she can do to stare hard at him. Her growls became more intense, quicker a little higher tone? I’m still trying to move her with my body blocks, her heads moving back and forth and pressing through my legs trying to look at him and I must’ve put my hand out towards her to block her view or push her back, and she SNAPPED at my hand! It was so fast and I heard her teeth clank…more later
Trish Kirby says
…continued from earlier. This growling and staring at Simon isn’t new. Bella has done this since she’s been with me. What’s new is that she NEVER tried to bite ME. I changed a few things up such as where I fed them and not really letting them in the kitchen while we are cooking and the behavior went from everyday to maybe once every few months and I’ve always been able to move her away with body blocks for the most part and have her lay down. Also Simon took care of the situation himself sometimes by growling and snapping back. Instantly Bella would turn into a goof ball hop side to side, give play bows and practically roll over with a dorky look on her face as if to say ” what? Why are getting so upset? Let’s play!” As if she wasn’t just acting like the devil dog from Hell. Basically Simon walks away from her Crap until he’s tired of it and then let’s her have it! He’s not hard on her and a real fight never takes place.
Maybe I should just let her act that way and let Simon deal with her?
I describe Bell as sweet and Sensitive. She’s my little contradiction. She looks like a border collie with really long legs. She’s feather light and stealthy but in a graceful way. She reminds me of a deer.
I’m guessing she’s insecure. I just love so much, she is really sweet and wonderful but we have to figure this out. I can’t have her biting me. I probably should have tried to snap her out of her aggressive behavior by distracting her with something good that she likes. I didn’t want to treat her while she was growling though. Lastly I did ignore her for a little over 24 hrs. IT WASNT EASY THOUGH. SHE KEPT TRYING TO LOOK AT ME…
Kat says
Trish Kirby, Both my dogs have snapped at me on occasion. I find it helps to remember that they can’t speak my language so I need to listen to theirs. Snaps, snarls, growls, and even bites are forms of dog communication. Bella was trying to tell you something. You may not have liked her specific method of communicating but for her it was the form of communication most likely to get her message across. In general a snap and/or snarl means I don’t like that stop it.
My totally unsocialized, seldom handled, psycho bitch from hell, Finna snapped at me many times in the beginning. It took me awhile to understand the conflict she was experiencing that led to the snaps. She came to us a very frightened and stressed dog who lacked any basis for understanding the sensations of petting. She had almost never been handled–when I finally realized that if she’d been being raised to fight she would have gotten more handling and human interaction it was heartbreaking. Finna carried all her stress and worry in her lower back. When I would pet her or gently massage her lower back she’d lean into it for a few seconds then snap at my hands. I finally realized that as the stress and tension was releasing under my handling it felt weird to Finna and she didn’t have a context for feels better just for feels weird/different and that weird/different in her head meant bad. I learned to stop when she turned her head toward my hands. She learned that she didn’t need to ‘shout’ to be heard and learned to enjoy the petting and massage. Today she’ll solicit massage for long as long as my slightly arthritic hands can manage it and on those rare occasions when I can go longer than she wants she’ll glance at my hands and I’ll finish up.
In short what I’m trying to say is that Bella was trying to tell you something it’s up to you to figure out what.
Trisha says
To Beth: I’m not a fan of NILF protocols, and don’t recommend them ever now. I can see why you would think that though.. a reminder to me that LOP was written a very, very long time ago and maybe should be retired…
LisaW says
Beth, I was responding to your comment: “I think there is a psychological difference between fear and a startle response. My smoke alarms sure startle me when they go off. And I do whatever I can to avoid setting them off. But I would not say I’m afraid of them.”
You know what your fire alarms are for and what sets them off. I was trying to say that the cascade of cans loaded with coins crashing down on my dog’s head out of the blue would be similar to the bathroom scenario. Not the same as your knowledge of your fire alarms. IMHO. I didn’t mean to imply you would set up that kind of a booby trap. Sorry if I muddled it.
I agree that it is a matter of degree. I might disagree on how we calibrate those degrees.
LisaW says
Trish Kirby: I sympathize with your bewilderment and angst. One thing I would offer is in the context of you coming home and your dogs sending out clear signals to each other and having almost a stand-off, it might have been better to change their moods with some treats or a few tricks or whatever you use to change their minds about something. Then have them sit and wait while you fixed their dinner. Then be on alert for signs of something brewing for the rest of the evening.
I’ve done the same thing before — been too tired or too distracted and just wanted to get on with it, and the result was I either escalated the situation or responded poorly.
Another thing I’ve learned with one of my current dogs is that when she is locked into a mode or mood, a startle response like touching her or taking her collar will only redirect her intense focus onto me for a split second. I’ve learned this by knowing her better and better, fortunately not the hard way.
It’s may be similar to some dogs that are in a frenzy barking at something and redirect onto the other dog in the house. It’s not personal, it’s that they don’t know how else to redirect that frustration or fear or anxiety.
Also, it’s not really about if Simon did or didn’t send out some vibe to Bella. It’s more about how Bella is perceiving and responding in situations. There’s no quid pro quo in her mind.
Trisha says
Thanks Trish K for sending us details. Tell me a bit more about your dogs… demographics, breed, general health, relationship between you and between the two of them. I can’t say much now, am in “pre-speech” mode, but for now I would add that it sounds like the snap was related to frustration (Human is getting in my way, preventing me from doing what I want to do), but the initial motivation is about the relationship between the two dogs. I am very cautious about a dog who is staring with a hard eye at another dog, a sign of trouble for sure. One thing I’d do right away is teach the dogs a few ‘tricks’ when things are calm so that you can manage them. I’d love it if Bella knew “back up” for example. I used to use that with Misty when she’d look daggers at Bess. Misty would back up a few feet, I’d then ask her to lie down and stay, then move Bess out of the room until Misty calmed down. All said in a very quiet voice. It only worked because I’d taught Misty a really great “back up” when things were calm and there was no tension. Another quick thought: I’d drop Leader of the Pack and get a hold of “Feeling Outnumbered,” a booklet I wrote about managed a multi-dog household. It emphasizes teaching dogs that they get what they want by being patient and polite, not being a bully or pushy and demanding. But tell me a bit more about Bella and your other dog and I’ll answer tomorrow between my morning talk and the afternoon panel session.
liz says
Trish K, I remembered the video you shared of your dogs from Trisha’s dog/dog resource guarding post over the summer. Yesterday, I initially wanted to write to you how beautiful I thought Bella was (even though she wasn’t her happiest self in that setting) but I thought it’d be weird to say then given that you might be still shaken up. Better late than never: she is beautiful.
I’m happy that this blog is such a great resource, and that you also have that video to draw upon to find new ways of interacting to lessen tension in the house. Remember that everything will be okay, definitely:).
Trish Kirby says
Beth, WAIT, STOP THE PRESSES! Haha. I just want you to know that I wasn’t referring to a NILF Program when ignoring Bella. I don’t know what NILF is. I was indeed Ignoring Bella as a consequence for snapping at me, having read that in a booklet ” how to be the leader of the pack and have your dog love you for it”. I wasn’t sure why I was doing it and I assumed it was because, well, that dogs don’t like being ignored by their humans in that way. I don’t think Bella liked it. I think She could tell something was wrong.
Thanks Kat and Lisa for sharing your stories and the advice. I obviously have to figure out better ways to communicate with my dogs and have a better understanding of what they are trying to tell me.
Kat -when my boy dog Simon was 12 wks old he didn’t like to be brushed. He was horrified of the brush and didn’t like being brushed on the back. I was brushing his back one afternoon and he turned and snapped and bark/ growled at me. Well he was a baby puppy and I could see that he was telling me that he doesn’t like it in the only way he knew how. A few months later when Bella came along he watched me brush her and he practically begged for a brushing. I’ve had no problem brushing him since. In fact he’d rather be first at brush time. He still doesn’t like to be stroked on his back or paws while he’s laying down, He’ll make a low moan/growl and get up and move away. I can say with almost 100% certainty that Simon will not bite me. He may mouth me lightly but only because he doesn’t have opposable thumbs 🙂
Beth says
Trisha, thanks so much for clarifying. I’ve never read “Leader of the Pack” and was only going by some excerpts and reviews and the general impression I got sounded a bit different from a lot of your more recent writing. I think it was your “Other End of the Leash” that made me give up any lingering views of trying to be a “leader” and focus most on rewarding what behavior we want.
Trish K, I agree that it sounds like the tension is between the dogs and Bella was frustrated that you were blocking her “conversation” with your other dog. I also agree that this is not a situation I would want to continue. And I am looking forward to hearing what Trisha has to say because I’d be at a loss as to handle it best myself. Dog-dog interactions gone wrong can be the hardest thing to deal with. Sometimes things I think will help make things so much worse, like my story about Jack and the mitten.
Beth says
Lisa W, thank you for your kind response. I think all of us here want what is best for our dogs.
To give some perspective, I had recently read a heart-rending post from a young woman on a forum I frequent who came home to find her Corgi dead, suffocated with his head in a chip bag he’d pulled from the trash. I’d heard stories about this dog since he was a puppy and it was a horrific thing to hear. A quick web surf found this is not a freak thing. Apparently dogs do not know to use their paws to get a bag off their heads, OR they get dizzy from lack of oxygen before they know there is a problem. We try to be diligent about cutting or tearing bags we throw away, but my husband, who loves the animals like life itself, can sometimes be a bit absent-minded and I have sometimes found whole bags in the bin. We never put actual food in the inside garbage, but a Corgi lives to eat and considers licking a paper that once held cheese to be reward enough to try, try again.
I don’t consider garbage-raiding a minor nuisance. There are lots of options, I weighed them all and came to what I felt was the best decision for my dog. Your decision in your house with your dogs would likely be different, and that is fine. Wouldn’t the world be boring if we all thought the same way?
Trish Kirby says
Trisha- I have two dogs.
Dog 1- (Bella) 18 mo. Old female Border Collie mix in good Health. Adopted from a shelter at 12 to 16 wks.
Dog 2- (Simon) 18 mo. Old Male Border Collie mix. In good health. Adopted from a shelter at 10 wks.
We have two adults (Humans) in our home, myself and long time companion of 20 yrs. I work outside of the house full time and he works from home. The dogs are rarely home alone.
I would say that I am their primary caregiver and trainer.
I spend at least two hours a day actively engaged with the dogs playing and training type activities.
My basic training philosophy is all positive reinforcment but I’m realizing that My idea of positive reinforcment means all things positive and never any consequences. Well the only consequence is that they don’t get a treat or praise when they don’t do what I ask. I can see now that I need a concrete training plan and better understanding of EVERYTHING dog. I did/ incorporate some of Jan Fennells training philosophy of Amechien bonding as well as I could understand it.
Basically the feeding time ritual of myself gesture eating before they eat and removing their bowls when they walk away. They don’t walk away til the food is gone. Also when I come home or enter a room I ignore them momentarily until their excitement level is low. Supposedly to help with any separation anxiety? It does work.
All other training has been what I’ve learned from your training video ” Feeling Out Numbered” I will be getting the comple set of training videos before the end of the month. I need to get to work. Training and playing with my dogs is how we mostly interact with each other.
Because I’m trying to train two dogs I mainly teach them as a group. YIKES! In the beginning it was “Simon, Bella SIT/STAY/COME/WAIT etc. poor things probably thought their names were collectively SIMONBELLA. then I saw your video and taught them Wait. So they wait by the door patiently now and wait for their name to be called to accept the treat in my hand and also who’s turn it is to fetch the ball an so on. The word Ive used for them to back up has been “Scoot” since they were pups. I should’ve thought that through. I will work on training them separately more often, I’m sure I will get better results although I must say they are doing great! They would do a 30 second to a minute Watch Me if I asked them to….I will describe their relationship with each other at lunch. Thanks so much
Nic1 says
Trisha, what was your gut feeling at the time when you were writing ‘Leader of the Pack’? Can you remember?!
NILF protocols (and variations of) were developed in response to the Dominance and Rank Reduction theory that was so pervasive in dog training at the time, as I understand. We know where the theory came from regarding ‘Dominance’ (Mech and colleagues flawed research on wolves in captivity). It is the equivalent of us studying human behaviour in stressful environments such prisons and concentration camps. Wolves and dogs may be more or less the same genetically, but behaviourally and socially they are very different. John Fisher’s book, ‘ThinkDog!’ is a very enlightening read in this regard. It belongs firmly in the ‘relegated to history’ and serves as a good example of what NOT to do if you don’t want to mess your pet dog up IMO. Of course, this lovely man did the best he could with the information available to him at the time. But I know from studying with a lady who worked with him that he was having serious doubts about what he was communicating in the book regarding rank reduction protocols. It didn’t ‘feel right.’
Why do human beings behave in this way if subconsciously it felt wrong to them in the first place? Peer pressure? Not wanting to disrupt the status quo? This fascinates me. Is it our primitive primate psychology at work? Does this feed into the Milgram experiment on authority from the 1960s even?
What has struck me recently is that some of the most ardent and impassioned supporters of using scientific and humane training methods for companion animals are the ‘crossover’ behaviourists and trainers. Some have publically admitted that they had uncomfortable feelings with the practices they employed. It almost seems that some are so relieved that they can behave more innately and naturally with dogs i.e. they are kind, humane and empathetic, that they want to share this feeling with the world. It’s a feeling of joy that they want to share I am sure as well as relief.
The term ‘Leader’ in dog behaviour is now unfortunately a loaded term due to the
misapplication of dominance theory. However, a human team leader who is kind and benevolent is naturally attractive to both humans and dogs. These are traits that we should celebrate. It’s a shame that this word is now a bit tainted when it can be so positive.
When it comes to our relationship with our dogs, it’s all about team work IMO, not necessarily leadership. Now I have got to know and trust my dog and know what she is and isn’t capable of, sometimes I trust her to take the lead. She has a sense of smell that is so much more amazingly sensitive than mine and sees the world in a different way to me, therefore if she gets a whiff of something that I can’t see or hear and communicates to me that she is concerned, then I’m taking her lead in that situation. What about our service dogs, scent detection dogs, medical alarm dogs? Sometimes, they are in the position of being out in front, taking the lead and doing their jobs aren’t they? Maybe we need to focus on understanding how teamwork is key to developing a wonderful relationship with our dogs?
Hope your talk went well Trisha btw.
em says
@Trish K
I debated whether to say anything, since I certainly would like to defer to better educated and experienced folks than myself, but with the understanding that this is only my extremely amateur two cents tip based on my personal (and not necessarily relevant experience), I thought of a trick that I used with Otis that might possibly help you.
Otis has never snapped (he’s rock solid that way, never transfers to dogs or people), but when he was an adolescent, he went through a phase where he’d freeze and STARE at strange dogs on leashes when he was leashed himself. It was very concerning to me, because he was very tense and very immovable (being enormous) and very intimidating to other people (being enormous). He’d greet fairly politely (aside from the staring as they approached) if the dogs came up to him, but the freezing behavior was disturbing and embarrassing to me and I worried that it might escalate.
What I observed was that if I tried too hard to distract or interfere, particularly if I used a low warning tone, or pushed at him to try to break his focus, or worst of all, tried to divert him with food which he’d never take, his tension only escalated (sometimes dramatically, even lunging and barking in the worst cases). For a few weeks we were at something of an impasse, since standing quietly and waiting seemed to get the best results, since he’d wait beside me and not move, but he was still freezing and staring and it was a serious problem for us.
Anyhow, out of desperation (inspiration?) one day, instead of standing still, when he froze and started staring at a dog, I glanced at the other dog (way down the street, he usually did this when we were quite distant) and paused for a moment, then said his release cue, “Okay!” in the same tone that I typically do when I’m telling him that he’s successfully finished a task. I then turned briskly and cheerfully called him to me as I started walking again. To my surprise, rather than staying planted as he usually did when I just called him, the release cue seemed to have jarred his brain forward. He turned and followed me.
After that, the brief pause, release cue, and blithe, as-if-nothing-untoward-had-happened call away became my strategy, and it worked shockingly well. The freezes became pauses, and then eventually not even that. Part of this resolution may have been Otis simply working through his adolescent angst, but whatever went on in his brain, using the release cue, as if to say, “yes, I see that you have done some important work there, but that’ll do. Mission accomplished, time for the next thing.” worked pure wonders on him.
I have no idea whether that would help Bella at all, or whether it’s even advisable to try, but in a situation where a dog seems inclined to transfer tension (two cents alert) I would much prefer to call her away rather than block her backward. I wish you the very best of luck.
Nic1 says
@em – that’s interesting about Otis and his staring. I remember Trisha mentioning that she uses ‘walkies’ or a similar cue to dissipate tension between dogs before they get snarky. Redirecting to an alternative behaviour seems to work really well in these circumstances. Perhaps relief was a big reinforcer for Otis? Giving him the functional reward to move away when he perhaps didn’t realise that was an option might have made him think ‘phew!’ just a thought….
I love the ‘find it’ game if I find my dog getting a bit tense on the lead if another dog is approaching. If she is sniffing and searching for food, the part of the brain engaged in that activity means she can’t be aggressive while engaged in that activity. I think it is part of the SEEKing circuit that Panksepp describes.
Trish Kirby says
To Liz – Thanks for the kind words about Bella. I think she’s a beauty too. I know in time we will work it out.
To Em and everyone sharing their stories and advice, thank you.
A few days ago I thought I had a problem with a dog that would Dare bite me. <– that's my first instinct before thinking things through a bit. Now I realize that Bella was having an episode with Simon and I got in the way. I don't think biting me is acceptable at all but now I understand why she might have done it.
This episode has really made me think about my relationship with my dogs. I now realize that because Bella is insecure, I see it as a her being a bit untrusting which makes me feel not completely trusting towards her. Probably has a lot to do with my inexperience or something in my UNCONSCIOUS mind. Please note that this is not how we interact all the time. It's usually fun, love and doggy grins.
So basically I have to work on Bella's actions towards Simon and my trust issues with Bella. Oh and figuring out a way to let Bella know that biting Trishy is not an option.
em says
@Nic1, that’s a very good thought. I have no doubt that Otis found it reinforcing to release his tension by breaking his focus and moving away. He has always been a little different from other dogs that I have owned and trained in that he actively seeks calm and is super sensitive to social pressure. Too much pressure and stimulation has always been fairly obviously aversive to him (hence the meltdowns in obedience class, where attempts to demand his attention in the midst of a chaotic environment while shoving food into his face triggered the very worst of his frustration explosions) and in contrast, standing quietly or walking calmly has always been an effective reinforcer for him (I know, sounds thrilling, right? What can I say, the dog wants what he wants). Fortunately, even when he was at his worst, he never seemed to have trouble with the dogs, per se, just with the overwhelming sensation of anticipation/anxiety/frustration when approached while leashed. Being able to smell and greet the dog was another tension release for him, but understandably, most people had no interest in letting their dogs get up close and personal with Otis Lasereyes the Big Scary Weirdo.
Once I got him to let go of his focus, he immediately seemed to feel better, but before I stumbled on the idea of using the release cue, already trained, nothing I did could convince him to break away. He’d just plant his feet and stare until he was good and ready. He’d crane his neck around me if I stood between him and the object of his stare, and even if I could physically block his gaze, he still wouldn’t break his focus or relax (unusually good sense of object permanence, for a dog).
I think the release cue, the brightly uttered, “Okay!” worked where all my other attempts failed because it triggered a conditioned response- usually I released him from a stay or wait, so he was conditioned to stop holding position, start moving (and release his tension and watch for the next cue) when he heard the release cue, and once he started moving, I could much more easily redirect him.
Trish Kirby says
Trisha – The relationship between Simon and Bella
I see their relationship as being very good. They get along great except for when Bella gets Moody as I described and that particular behavior Bella exhibits only lasts for less than a few minutes. Bella either forgets it on her own or Simon will snap back and Bella will act playful and submissive and the episode is done.
They play tug with no issues. They take turns at being possessive about random toys but seem to respect each other and never fight. They play chase with no real issues but Bella seems a bit rougher than Simon. Simon loves to chase balls and Bell chases Simon. Simon gets a little irritated with Bella picking at him and Bella will start with the goofy hopping back and forth and play bows. I’m pretty sure you call it mugging :-). I think she just wants to play but isn’t being very respectful.
When we go away to the lake on the weekends in the fall the dogs are off leash most of the time. They choose to stay together when they are out exploring. By the way, I was so proud of their RECALL this past weekend. It’s getting better every day.
There have been times that I’ve wondered if either dog would’ve rather been an only dog in the house. Then there are times when the dogs aren’t in sight and the house is quiet and I go to check on them and find them in my room on my bed (yeah I let them do that) nose to nose, paw to paw playing quietly touching each other softly. I think they enjoy their canine companionship…they just have to work a few things out.
Lastly I’ve been wondering lately if Bella’s moodyness could be hormonal or Simons hormones making Bella react. They are both fixed. I don’t know a thing about that but I’m going to research it.
liz says
Trish K, thank you for sharing your story and creating an opportunity to help! I’ve been writing from my phone so while brief, it feels good to be able to remotely help a fellow dog lover. Very cool. Thanks again.
One thing that might help, and might be a kind of quick and easy switch, is to change where your dog food is stored. Looks like you have a ‘food corridor bottleneck’ thing happening. Can’t be sure but I think some dogs see a fridge as a giant food box full of the high value stuff. If the dog food’s in the closet across from the fridge then the spot in between is the best one in the house, and although it isn’t a corner, space is limited and at a premium. I keep my dog food in a stock pot and refill as needed while the big bag lives away from the kitchen. Just a thought if it’s doable for you, might influence the dynamic.
Nic1 says
@em – I wonder what is going on in his brain because it seems like he is over threshold, yet you are able to communicate with him with a recognisable cue. It’s really hard to get through to a dog that is over threshold usually. My dog is very similar in those situations too and like you discovered, giving her options to leave or move away – basically provide space – was extremely effective in helping her feel more relaxed . Have you tried BATing Otis around other dogs when he’s on lead?
em says
@Nic1,
This was well before I knew the first thing about BAT, and he’s fine now, so I’ve never had reason to try. What would have been difficult with Otis is that he used to freeze and go immediately to “over threshold” as soon as he spotted a dog, however distant. And then, because he was so strong, I physically couldn’t move him away. (He would have approached willingly, but I was uncomfortable moving him close to a dog when he was so obviously tense). I’m not sure how I feel about the whole concept of over/under threshold when it comes to Otis. His behavior is certainly atypical.
He’s always been able to do that super focused yet still listening (even if he won’t respond) thing. He’s strongly bonded, but an independent thinker. He’s agreeable, but not really biddable. He shows a strong instinct to confront danger rather than retreating from anxiety-provoking situations, but he’s generally not reactive. He WAS really terrible about most common reinforcers like food, toys, and praise. (He had a rocky start in life and these “rewards” were pretty badly tainted for him during the medical rehab that was his first introduction into close contact with humans). He’s much better now, but I’m still careful about not winding him up further when he’s excited, because it starts to become aversive.
It’s somewhat fanciful of me, but I’ve always privately thought of him as a ‘throwback’ dane- a dog in whom some of the genetics of his boarhound ancestors have randomly found expression again four hundred years later. Early proto-danes were selected for many of the qualities he exhibits so that they could effectively track and attack large, dangerous animals in a woodland without losing focus or turning on each other. All while maintaining a simultaneous goal of protecting the humans as they hunted dangerous game on foot without firearms. Dogs that got distracted or looked for human direction when engaging a boar ended up dead and dogs who retreated from danger on their own probably ended up culled. Dogs who transferred aggression onto one another or on their handlers (and remember, these are dogs selected to attack and kill wild pigs) were almost certainly culled.
What I have in Otis is a dog who strongly wishes to remain close to me, yet feels absolutely no difficulty in tuning me out when confronting danger on his own. Even as he seems to ignore me, he always keeps an ear on my position and a corner of his eye on my motion. He never, ever transfers his tension to other dogs or to people. He, (thank god!) has a super soft mouth and a lazy, easygoing disposition to temper some of his more difficult qualities, but a straightforward, typical training case, he is NOT. 🙂
Robin Jackson says
@Beth, I have a friend with Corgis, and they took an interesting approach to a similar situation. Corgis are tricky because as I know you know they can be both very bright and very persistent. (And very cute!) 🙂
They did the following:
1) Bought a brand new trashcan that was a bit more airtight than the previous
2) Used floral scented trash bags
3) Put a Glade floral scented air freshener in the cabinet where the trash can was
4) Gave the dog a few days to check out the completely empty trash can and cabinet before they started using it.
The end result was that the dog lost all interest in the cabinet, probably having decided that the “good stuff” wasn’t there any more.
(They used a webcam to verify that the dog would walk by the cabinet, sniff once or twice, and keep going.)
Floral scents are appealing to people but not to dogs. Dogs don’t seem to mind them, in the sense that they don’t avoid rooms with floral air fresheners, but they definitely don’t seem to trigger food seeking behaviours.
So this family had to do without their kitchen trash can for a few days during the initial set up, but after that, no more problems.
It wouldn’t likely work with all dogs, but it probably would with quite a few.
That’s just one example of a possible approach, there are many more.
Nic1 says
@em – fascinating. It doesn’t seem like he is over threshold if he is responding to a cue, yet his outward behaviour as described may suggest he is. Tricky! But sounds like you understand him great.
He’s brave and loyal. A true heart dog…Love hearing your stories about Otis. Thanks for sharing.
Kat says
Once again I need to thank em for her Otis training stories. Many of the things you’ve learned from Otis are helping me rehabilitate Finna. This time it was the creative use of his release cue. Finna started out going so far over threshold that she couldn’t hear or see me and my only option was to literally drag her away until we were far enough away that she could use her brains again (fortunately she’s not huge). Today she’s reactive but can still respond to me to some extent. Finna is a dog who likes things to be predictable so when neighbors came home at not the usual time this morning she was on the fence barking. We’d been about to go in when the neighbors came home and Finna runs much much faster than I can so she was going to have several seconds at the fence practicing bad behavior before I could reach her and remove her so I tried calling “That’ll do” which is the release cue I use with my dogs. Finna stopped, wheeled around and trotted to me and into the house happy as a clam. I’m definitely going to be keeping that use for her release cue in my tool kit! I was still probably 20 yards away! Thank you.
Beth says
My Madison will stare at other dogs and sometimes bark. It’s partly misdirected herding type behavior and partly social uncertainty, I think. She is the softest, least dominant dog you will ever find. Jack literally just walks up to her and takes toys out of her mouth and she will always back down when confronted by any other dog. Even puppies don’t listen to her. But… she stares and barks and some dogs find this antagonizing.
Since I have two dogs that I walk together, “watch me” isn’t the best when I want one and not the other. So what I have trained Maddie to do is turn and look at me when I say “Maddie Maddie Maddie” in a higher, cheerful voice. It breaks the stare if there are strange leashed dogs around (or ones I know are insecure and don’t like being stared at; confident dogs always recognize her for the pushover she is).
Trish K, I wonder if you might be able to do something similar with Bella, to draw her focus when she is staring down your other dog?
Nic1 says
@em – please write a book! 🙂
Trish K says
Thanks Beth that’s great advice and we’ll be working on that constantly. Unfortunately for training purposes these episodes with Bella are infrequent and so far have only been in my home with Simon. I’ll work on a great distraction technique in the meantime and see how effective it is when it’s really needed. Thanks again
em says
@Kat- I’m so glad if my story helped Finna! I’m always so happy to hear how you are helping your ‘work in progress’ over the hurdles of her past experience to become more of the happy, comfortable dog she really deserves to be. I hope Ranger is feeling better, too. I admit to thinking of him as Otis’ ‘spirit brother’, and I’m always delighted to hear stories of his adventures.
@Nic1 Hahaha! You are sweet. Maybe someday 🙂
Beth with the Corgis says
Robin, your friends used a creative approach to fix their problem, and I’m so glad it worked for them! I used clementine peels to keep my cat out of a large potted plant (she was playing with the bark mulch covering, not using it as a litter box). It worked great for about 10 minutes. The cat hated the smell and stayed away. And then the dogs ate the clementine peel. 🙂 I guess they never got the memo that dogs don’t like citrus…. I have used Bitter Apple with very limited success when puppy Jack used to chew wood; it only worked while it was wet (about 5 minutes). Maddie, on the other hand, thinks Bitter Apple is a condiment. It adds a certain piquance to seat belt harnesses, or so she tells me, and so she rides in a crate (I gave up after she ate through the second harness in less than 5 minutes). Since I’ve had such poor success using smells as an aversive, I never really thought to try it with mine but I agree that it would work with a lot of dogs.
It is important to remember though that a scent (or taste) IS still an aversive, and it is a good reminder that when we use any aversive, we have to judge how the dog might feel about it. Puppy Jack would bark when he saw me get the bottle of Bitter Apple, so he clearly found its use at the least frustrating. He also barked when Maddie set off the scat cat spray in the cabinet, and the bark was very much the same, so he seemed to find both aversive methods about equal in frustration level—- one of the advantages of having a very vocal dog is you rarely have to guess how they feel.
As a person who is very sensitive to smells— fake smells like perfumes and detergents and the floral garbage liners you mention give me a queasy headache; natural smells like decomposing meat turn my stomach — I can say that for me, personally, mild pain or being startled would be less bothersome than something I did not like the smell of.
If you were training ME to stay out of the cupboard where the chocolate was kept and you tried three approaches: a mild shock like you’d get from touching a metal doorknob on a dry winter day, a loud buzz or bell ring sound, or an offensive odor, and observed my behavior, you might make incorrect assumptions. I would jump from the buzzer or bell. I would try several approaches to try to touch the cupboard to avoid the mild shock (much as I do when trying to get in my house in the winter), making me appear stressed. And I would walk quietly away from the bad smell. From this a reasonable person would assume that the smell was the kindest approach. But in fact the smell would for me be far and away the worst approach in terms of how I felt. It’s just that there is no clear body language for “Now I have an instant headache and feel sick and don’t even want any chocolate, thank you very much.” But now I would have a headache and nausea for a good hour at least, and that was assuming I could no longer notice the smell; if I could, the headache would stay as long as the smell did. The effect of the mild shock or startle reflex would totally dissipate within a few minutes.
Do I believe dogs have the same reactions to smells they don’t like as humans sometimes do? Probably not, but the point is we can’t be sure and when we are measuring the impact of an aversive it’s important to remember that.
As I said, I would never have used a startle response on my last cat, Alice. She had almost PTSD-type response to any fear or startle event and would freeze, hide, refuse food, etc. She would not return to normal for hours. I would be unlikely to use a startle aversive on a puppy who is still in the socialization period, or one who is just starting to alert-bark. I would be disinclined to use a startle aversive on Jack, since he tends to turn and confront things that startle him. He’s such an obsessive rule follower that it would not be necessary anyway. I would use the air can as I did on Madison, but the cookie tray and can trick outlined above would be too much for her. It would have not been a problem for the slap-happy lab my family had as a teenager, however. So I still say it depends very much on the dog.
Beth with the Corgis says
Kat, Jack is my chronic alert-barker (“Things are different and that is wrong!”). It’s quite a common— but not ubiquitous— trait in Corgis, who were bred for centuries to keep my cows over here and your cows over there without too much human interference, before they became mostly pet and internet dogs as they are today.
Anyway, with him what is most effective is for me to observe what he sees and say “Thank you Jack, I see it” in a normal voice. The only time this does not work is when he feels affronted (the local fox territory-barking, for instance, is something that he simply won’t ignore).
I think it’s probably similar to the “That’ll do” approach you just had such success with? I’ve found correcting a dog for a hard-wired behavior is a losing battle but for some reason acknowledging what they have done and letting them know the job is over seems to help. I think the release cue makes perfect sense to the dog because from the dog’s perspective, he is performing a task and you are recognizing the task and saying he’s done good and can now carry on as normal.
Robin Jackson says
@Beth,
Excellent point that somesmells a re aversive. Some are attractive. And many are simply neutral.
I agree that many dogs seem to find citrus smells attractive rather than repellant, no idea why. A lot of animals, including birds and rodents, definitely associate citrus with food, however, and citrus can initiate food seeking behavior.
That’s why my friends specifically went with floral. There’s no indication that most dogs find floral scents aversive (as I said, most don’t avoid rooms that have floral air fresheners). They just don’t associate them with food.
So I’d have to respectfully disagree that “a scent (or taste) IS still an aversive.” I don’t think the floral scent was an aversive for the particular corgi I mentioned, I think it just didn’t smell like food. The dog didn’t startle when she smelled it, and she didn’t avoid that area of the kitchen. She just didn’t bother trying to get into that cupboard anymore, because the floral smell had become an indicator for her that the cupboard was empty (even though it wasn’t).
My friends didn’t use pine, because they knew pine attracted their dog, an issue they’d had in the past with other air fresheners. But they also knew their dog neither was attracted by nor repelled by floral air fresheners, as they also used those elsewhere in the house.
Different dogs are different, and it might require a little experimenting in other parts of the house to find out if a particular scent was attractive, aversive, or neutral. But there was no intent to use the floral scent as an aversive and, based on the dog’s reaction to the same scent in other parts of the house, I don’t think it was for that particular dog.
The baseline laboratory measure for aversive is simple: does the organism move physically away from the item if they are allowed to do so. As I mentioned, my friends do use a webcam in their house to watch their dog occasionally. They knew the dog voluntarily went into rooms that had floral air fresheners even when the people weren’t around, and sometimes, again with no people around, slept on a bath mat that had been washed with floral fabric softener even when other beds were available. So she certainly didn’t seem to find it aversive. But it didn’t trigger food seeking behaviours, and it didn’t particularly attract her the way the pine scents did.
Undoubtedly there are some dogs who might find floral scents aversive, just as some people do, but I don’t think that’s what was going on here.
Respectfully,
Robin J.
Kat says
@Beth, it’s funny you mention thanking Jack for telling you about the thing that’s “NOT Right”. Ranger (also a herding breed) tells me when things are “NOT Right” but he’s never been obnoxious about it he has a particular bark he uses to tell me that there’s something he needs me to check out. It’s a single bark, pause, bark , pause, until I come. I look at it and thank him for telling me and that it’s allowed. (Very occasionally I actually need to deal with whatever it is). I tried for a long stretch (about a month) going to Finna and thanking her and telling her it was allowed but it never had any effect. I suspect the fact that Ranger and Jack were so very well socialized as puppies gives them a better foundation for accepting our judgement. They know how to be partners in a way that lacking any puppy socialization Finna does not. “Thanks I see it don’t worry about it” means nothing to her but the cue that means “you can stop doing that now” is relevant to her understanding of the world. Maybe in time she’ll get to the point where she can be a partner but for now she operates better as a subject, if that analogy makes any sense.
Trish Kirby says
To Liz, I was just rereading some posts from the other day and can’t believe I missed your post about the dog food closet. You are absolutely right! I do ‘have a food corridor bottleneck’ thing going on and changing where the food is stored will be the first thing I do. Thanks for helping me remotely 🙂 Very Cool indeed.