Well, we must be making progress. After reading every single one of your comments, recording them by sex, familiarity and social status (maybe, sort of, more on that later) and comparing it to Dr. Anneke Lisberg’s research on urine marking, I now am completely flummoxed about what it all might mean. But you know how the learning curve often gets steeper once you’re making some progress (same thing happens in dog training, right)…. ? Maybe total confusion means we’re getting somewhere?
Here’s what I came up with when summarizing your comments. First, an explanation: I recorded sex of over marker and over markee if known, or noted it as ‘unknown” if necessary. I recorded if the urine first deposited was from a familiar or an unfamiliar dog. Finally, I recorded the writer’s description about the social relationship of their dogs. This is obviously the fuzziest part of the project–so fuzzy for so many reasons that we can’t begin to call this “research,” but given that the traditional explanation of over marking has been that it is most often done by a “dominant” dog, it seemed impossible to ignore completely. Aware of all the obvious problems, but believing there might be some value in it, I categorized a dog as “dominant” if the writer used that term or described the dog as the one who had priority access to preferred resources. The other categories were “not dominant,” if the writer used those words or in some way stated that, in their belief, the dog was not highest in social status in a group of dogs, and “unknown” if the writer didn’t address that topic, or directly stated that they didn’t know. And yes yes yes, of course, this is a complicated and controversial topic. I address it at length in earlier posts on August 7, 2010 and in a series of posts starting on March 31st, 2010. I don’t want to get too lost in the controversy of social status here, but I will summarize that 1) the term “dominance” is misused and misunderstood relentlessly, 2) has not been discarded by researchers who study behavior in wild animals and 3) all it means, if use correctly is: who predictably would get the bone/toy/best place to sleep between 2 individuals if they both wanted it equally. (Note one comment asked a great question: “How much of a behavior … is true submission and how much is lack of confidence in the ability to win?” Great question, because that’s actually the EXACT definition of the terms! It’s ONLY about individual’s judgments about who is likely to win and how that informs their decisions about who gets a resource.)
Argh, I didn’t want to get lost in a discussion about social status, especially given that it’s a mine field, but again, it’s hard to talk about over marking without bringing it in. So, given that digression, here’s a summary of your comments:
MALES OVER MARKING FAMILIAR DOGS
– No “dominant” male dogs were reported out of 91 comments to over mark over the urine of familiar males or females.
– There were 14 instances of “not dominant or submissive” dogs over marking the urine of familiar males or females.
– There were 17 instances of male dogs who social status was not known or stated, who over marked the urine of familiar males or females.
FEMALES OVER MARKING FAMILIAR DOGS
– 2 “dominant females” over marked the urine of a familiar female, none over marked the urine of familiar males.
– There were 15 reports of females who were “not dominant” over marking familiar males or females, and 2 reports of “unknown” social status females over marking familiar females.
MALES AND FEMALES OVER MARKING UNFAMILIAR DOGS
– Not surprisingly, there were fewer reports of this, and the sex of the urine marked was usually unknown. There were 14 instances that I counted of males over marking the urine of unfamiliar dogs (2 “dominant,” 3 “not dominant” and 9 “unknown”) and 15 of females over marking unfamiliar dogs (6 “Dominant,” 3 “Not dominant” and 5 “Unknown.”)
What stands out most to me is that:
1. Both males and females over mark (but note that many people commented that many of their dogs never overmarked). The behavior appears to be common, but NOT universal.
2. Many more “not dominant” dogs over marked than ones described as “dominant.” I can add to that myself: I had 4 dogs for 12 years, Queen Tulip the Gr Pyr, who without question was the one would got the bone, and 3 BCs who would never have even tried once she growl/barked them away a few times. Tulip seemed to pay no attention to where the other dogs urinated, and no one ever over marked her urine. Lassie over marked Pippy Tay’s urine 95% of the time. Pippy Tay was older and would be described by many as “submissive” or “appeasing” while Lassie was less so, a “middle of the road” dog. Luke, the intact male, sometimes over marked and sometimes didn’t.
The large number of “non dominant” over markers could be explained by demographics–perhaps there were that many more dogs described as such. But I went back and added up the number of dogs described as “dominant” or “not dominant” and there was a 1:2 ratio, which is much lower than the ratio of over markers to non over markers. My conclusion is that the one thing we should be able to take from this project is that social status is NOT a predictor of over marking within familiar dogs, at least not in the simplistic direction previously assumed.
And yet, wouldn’t you know it, Dr. Anneke Lisberg’s research on urine marking came up with very different results. In one study she presented small wooden stakes annointed with the urine of male, female, familiar, unfamiliar, intact and neutered dogs. The sample was all of Labradors (20) and she found that no females over marked (but perhaps because they couldn’t squat on the stakes?) and a strong correlation between high tail position and over marking in males. She also looked at “counter marking” in a dog park (she had no way of knowing if the mark was exactly over the urine or just adjacent) and found that both males and females counter marked, and that high tail position also correlated with frequency of counter marking. (And that high tail position also correlated with who got food tossed on the floor equidistant between 2 familiar dogs.) If marking was done to the urine of unfamiliar dogs, it was done mostly by males with high tail positions. Whew. Confused yet?
What could all this mean? All I feel comfortable saying now is that the plot thickens. One thing that comes to mind is that 1) perhaps over marking means something different if done to familiar versus unfamiliar urine, 2) that we have no idea yet what the trigger actually is–that perhaps it has NOTHING to do with status, but something else altogether: Age? (several people mentioned that younger always over marked older). Something discernible in the urine that we have no clue about? Health status? I suspect myself, especially given Anneke’s research and the knowledge that over marking in wolves is most often done by breeding pairs (on each other’s urine) that very important messages are being sent … and we don’t have a clue yet what they are! By the way, Anneke is continuing her urine marking studies, I can’t wait to hear the results of what she’s working on now.
A few interesting random comments: Several people have dogs who over marked coyotes (scat? urine? if urine, how know?), many of you have dogs who actually pee on other dogs (Luke did that too sometimes, as if he was too impatient to wait for the dog to finish urinating), several people mentioned dogs who began over marking once the other dog became ill, many people noted that the over marker was somewhat anxious or insecure, and a few commented what a strange world it is that we are all spending time on pee and poop. (And there was one request to talk more about poop; let’s save that for another day!
If you’re not sick of this topic, send in a comment that is VERY specific that might help us relate our observations to Dr. Lisberg’s research. Note the tail position (TP: Low= below parallel to the ground; Med = parallel to the ground; or High= close to vertical or vertical) and correlate it with over marking. Just send the facts, ma’m…. ex: Female, Med TP, OMs onto Dom Fam Female or Male, Hi TP, OM’s Subm M. Record the TP as the dog walks toward the area to urinate, not as he or she is actually urinating. If the social ranking question makes you grit your teeth, just ignore it.
MEANWHILE, back on the farm: Willie and I are going day by day. Surgically, I think he’s doing extremely well. The incision looks great, the swelling is going down and he’s doing a great job with his physical therapy exercises. He spends a tremendous time in his crate, and I spent a lot of time away from the farm. I know when I’m gone he settles in, just sleeps, rather than fussing when I’m home about why everything has changed and he isn’t out loose in the house. Actually, it’s not him that’s fussing, it’s me. I just hate walking by his crate so often and seeing his perplexed face. We’re doing okay, but I won’t pretend I don’t miss my regular life, and I’m sure he does too. I am, however, overwhelmed with thanks that Willie is such a good boy, and already was trained to accept PT while lying on his side, and is a perfect dog in his crate. (There is an exception: when I’m outside in the yard he barks if he’s stuck in the crate. This is a new issue because normally he’s outside with me or loose in the house. Right now I’m dealing with it through management and prevention: I am ignoring my garden and flowers and spending my home time cuddled with Willie on the floor or doing his PT, which takes about 1.5 hours a day. And in case you haven’t heard, Willie does indeed love me again! Whew.
I do have some great news: My kitty Sushi has had a lot of health challenges lately and I took her in yesterday for an ultrasound to check for cancer. I didn’t even mention it because it seemed like the news from the farm was just relentlessly grim. So I have GOOD news! No tumors, no bladder stones, no strange weird things appearing on the films. And now Sushi has a shaved belly, so she fits right in with Willie. Who knew dogs and cats could get a Brazilian?
Here’s Willie boy after I said “Acupuncture” which is his cue to lie down on his right side and put head to floor.
And here he is after I took the picture above, instead of starting his therapy as usual! Anyone want to take a guess what he was thinking?
em says
So glad to see Willie looking so bright and thoughtful (I know he always looks bright and thoughtful, it’s just nice to see him looking so much like himself, if that makes sense).
I’m finding the great pee debate VERY interesting, so I’ll chip in my detailed comment. I have two dogs, both mid-pack socially (they don’t generally compete for resources, but if they do both go after a treat, Sandy’s quicker and generally wins but she’ll respect Otis’ immediate space if it’s right in front of his nose. He’ll do the same for her. They share toys pretty equally and will share sleeping space and human access as well. They’re both quite tolerant of close physical contact with one another).
Here’s how they break down: Female, 6yrs but new to household, adjacent marker typically, overmarks as part of group (second or third dog to go), Tail neutral to high.
Male, 4yrs, adjacent marker typically, overmarks as part of group (usually last to go) Tail neutral.
I also strongly suspect that Otis and his dog friends routinely overmark coyote urine. There is no way to know for certain (the same problem identifying overmarking between unfamiliar dogs), but after a quick sniff, Otis typically ignores the occasional urine marks that we can see in the snow. Sometimes he finds marks HIGHLY interesting, though, and frequently these are associated with tracks, scat, or kill remnants that would indicate a coyote, fox, or other wild animal. In these cases, he ALWAYS overmarks the urine or scat, and will sometimes urine mark the remnants of a kill, if it isn’t too delicious to pass up. It’s a bit of a circular argument-I’m guessing that he urine is coyote urine because Otis is overmarking it in an excited way, but of course, I can’t really know that.
Fox urine is pretty obvious by smell. Otis is excited by it, but seldom overmarks.
Blair says
Could overmarking actually be co-marking- showing strength in numbers?
Beth says
So glad to see Willie look so bright. He is being a good patient. When things settle down, I would love to see a post about how one decides if a dog should have surgery and prolonged rehab, vs allowing a dog to continue with some level of pain/disability but relatively normal activity? I have one dog who would probably tolerate long crate confinement, and another who frankly probably would not.
I can’t talk about tail position. I have show-docked Corgis. There are times when I greatly miss their tails; ear position is helpful but does not give the same message, and I’ve seen dogs “lie” with their facial expression more than with their tails (i.e., similar to a fake smile in a person not involving the eyes, while a real smile does).
I did have one thing jump out at me about Lisberg’s research: “The sample was all of Labradors…..”
Hmm. THAT makes me wonder. Labradors, remember, have been carefully selected to tolerate a strange dog’s presence in close quarters (boat, duck blind), often with not much introduction. They’ve also been selected to tolerate watching another dog work while they do not. It would seem to me that perhaps this would mean that they have been selected to have many more dogs fall in the “happy-go-lucky”, middle-of-the-road (neither dominant nor submissive) personality range than many other breeds. It would be like doing a dominance study with a pack of beagles.
Would one get a different result using a breed that was selected in part to guard the property and drive away strays? Common sense would dictate that such breeds would have more dogs who see themselves as high-status. I would think that as a rule, Labs who are obsessed with status would tend not to be used in developing the breed.
Julia says
Dom. Male, 5yrs old, Hi TP, OM
Stephanie says
My dog and my parents’ dog don’t live together, but spend a lot of time together, probably enough for this purpose (although if you’re just considering dogs that always live in the same household eliminate them).
My parents dog is female, 12yrs, mine is a 7 yr old male. Neither really seems to like the other, and they do their best to ignore the other one when in the house. Neither is socially dominant, there is no predicting who will win any given contest. When outside in the yard or on walks, both have very high tail position, and mark adjacent to each other, but I’ve never seen either overmark. However they overmark unfamiliar dogs urine consistently.
My little male didn’t even lift his leg when we got him from the humane society, but he’s slowly figured that out, and now tries to mark all over the place, but runs out of juice very quickly. Mostly it’s just posing, but I think that counts (in his mind anyway). He doesn’t usually lift his leg when adjacent marking my parent’s dog spots though… go figure.
Maggi says
I will make sure to take notice of Cracker’s habits more to get more details. Since she is the constant dog on my group and pair walks (she’s mine, the rest are clients) and we also come across unfamiliar dogs urinating, I should be able to get a pretty good idea of what is happening.
Speaking of urine and illness, several months ago she checked out a local male LH GSD’s urine (I saw him mark and then he and his owner were about a block away)..she always reacts to this dog visually though he was out of sight , but when she sniffed his urine she went WAY over the top, barking howling and jumping around. It took several minutes to calm her. Next time I saw the owner I mentioned it..he had been ill at the time of the incident, though he has recovered, except for a sudden onset of blindness. I found this very interesting.
I will also make sure to clarify what I consider Cracker’s social status to be…look forward to more discussion!
Best of thoughts and good Reiki energy to you and Willie on his recovery! My guess for the second photo? Um, Mom, aren’t we supposed to be DOING something here??
Peggy says
I have two dogs – a 6 year old Pembroke Corgi and a 2 year old Basenji. I would describe both of them as middle of the road when it comes to basic dominance with the Basenji a bit more dominate than the Corgi. When they both want the same bed the Basenji usually gets it. But when it comes to peeing the Corgi waits, sometimes not so patiently, for the Basenji to finish and then she pees directly on top. I would say this happens 90% of the time, every day. Both are spayed females. Can’t describe tail posture for obvious reasons. During play times with unknown dogs the Corgi will occasionally overmark strange dogs – maybe 20% of the time. During these events the Corgi is rather shy and does not want to be directly in the pack while the Basenji is the social butterfly usually leading a pack to some type of mischief. I have always described Bodecea’s, the Corgi, behavior as wanting to be “top dog”. My first spayed, female Corgi was even more “top dog” with every dog regardless of gender, familiar or unfamiliar – she was the ultimate “top dog”.
Lauren Norwood says
I have one dog right now, a standard American Eskimo named Riley. Neutered male, ~7 years (however we got him last year), typically adjacent marker, OM’s familiar dogs both male and female occasionally, it’s a bit tough to tell his tail position w/him having the typical spitz tail (set high and curled over the back), but I’d say neutral, and he’s mid-to-low ranking.
Our previous American Eskimo, Frosty, used to OM both familiar and unfamiliar dogs. Spayed female, did it all 16 years of her life, adjacent marked familiar dogs, but OM’d unfamiliar dogs more often, neutral tail, mid-ranking. She used to OM raccoon urine if one happened to pass through the yard too.
AnneJ says
I turned two of my male dogs outside after they had been inside together most of the day and watched them from the window so I wouldn’t influence them. The more dominant dog, Luke, is 11, and the less dominant, Ben, is 5. Both intact. I noticed Ben spent a lot of time observing Luke from across the yard but didn’t follow him. Luke went straight to the middle of the yard and marked, Ben went into a lilac thicket. They ran around for a while, marking several spots, then Ben over marked one of the spots Luke had marked, level tail position. I never saw Luke overmark- I watched for about 5 minutes. Went back to the window a few minutes later and Ben was following Luke around but didn’t see any more marking.
Sam says
Glad to hear that Willie’s doing well and, more importantly, still talking to you. What a good boy he is! Watching this amazing video about sheepherding in Scotland should entertain the patient. Of course, it might make him bolt for the flock. In that case, wait until he’s gone to bed and enjoy it yourself.
An very entertaining video (compliments of Samsung) of sheepherding in Scotland.
http://www.wimp.com/sheeplight
Erin says
I have a spayed female with medium tail position. She only overmarks unfamiliar urine. She has never been a particularly dominant dog (usually dom or nuetral around unfamilar dogs, submissive to other family dogs) but she only started overmarking around the time our older dog died of cancer. The older dog (spayed, female, med tail position, usually dominant with other family dogs, usually submissive with unfamiliar dogs) peed a lot on walks but it was unclear as to whether she was overmarking or just peeing.
Liza Lundell says
First, hope Willie continues to improve and the surgery improves his life. And I’m glad he loves you again! Dogs are so forgiving, even when they think we’re out of our minds.
I have 3 basenjis, so everybody’s got a high tail position.
The 12-yo nm doesn’t seem to overmark much, or to mark at all. He generally pees a lot when we first go out, then doesn’t mark during the rest of the walk. He grumbles a lot but generally defers to the other dogs.
The 1 yo intact male marks a lot, I’m guessing he’s overmarking unfamiliar dogs because I can either see the urine marks or he’s marking on objects that I assume other dogs have marked like trees, fence posts, street signs, etc. He’s a pretty happy-go-lucky fellow, and there’s not much he’d be willing to fight for.
The 11 yo spayed bitch urinates adjacent to the 1 yo, then he’ll mark again adjacent to where she’s marked. So if he pees on a tree, she’ll pee next to it, then he’ll pee on the tree again. Of the three, she’s the dominant one, although I try to arrange our lives so there’s not much opportunity for conflict among the three.
AnneJ says
Second part- later I let Kip (intact male,8 yrs) out after putting Luke and Ben back in. Kip I’d say is dominant, or at least status seeking. He doesn’t get along with other males very well. He over marked the same spot Ben and Luke had both marked, plus some other spots. Tail was high the whole time and lots of kicking dirt. Then I let Cinder out with Kip. She is 11, spayed, female, dominant. She didn’t mark or pee at all, probably didn’t have to go as she had been in and out all day. But Kip followed her around and over marked his own spot again.
AnneJ says
I’m thinking instead of overmarking it should be described as “follower marking” if the followers are waiting for the leaders to go first.
ABandMM says
I’m glad you are getting “Willie Love” again. It seems like his lack of love was due to post-surgery recovery and not a “grudge” for making him go through that. My girl has decided that sleeping in the walk-in closet next to the vacuum cleaner is more appealing than sharing the bed with me. Talk about a hit to one’s self esteem!
Nothing to add on the marking. We live in a condo building, so the areas adjacent to the building is common ground for all the dogs. Abby has her preferred area to take care of business, but I don’t see her urinating more with respect to who else might have also used the area.
em says
Oh, meant to say that Otis and Sandy are neutered and spayed, respectively.
I’m glad I’m not the only one to have it cross my mind, but when I saw that Dr. Lisberg’s study used exclusively Labradors, the first thought that presented itself to me was, “But labradors are not normal dogs…”
Please don’t take offense, I mean that in the nicest possible way, there is much to recommend the labrador as a pet or a working companion, but my anecdotal experience with Labs in canine social settings has led me to the conclusion that labradors are very different from non-labs in the way they interact with people and other dogs. Along with border collies, they are among the dogs most influenced by selective breeding for specific behavioral traits and while they certainly are common in pet populations, I don’ t know if labs are really the best choice to reflect universal canine social behaviors. Of course, choosing any specific breed would have its pitfalls.
Maybe my experience does not reflect the norm, but I find that while almost every labrador I’ve met has been pretty comfortable with people, it is quite common to see them not getting along well with other dogs. This can vary from the awkwardness caused by overexuberance (in which the offending dog often comes off as a victim to the humans) to prononounced discomfort with or downright hostility toward other dogs. I know some very sweet natured and socially appropriate labradors, but the vast majority that I meet tend to be a dicey combination of hyperactive, obsessive, physically reckless (much more likely than average to collide heavily with a person or dog), and oblivious to the social signals of other dogs.
Part of this is no doubt owner-related. Labs tend to be sheltered under the myth of the “safe dog” and people seem much more likely to ignore warning signs and inappropriate behavior in a labrador than they would in a similar-sized dog with a more fearsome reputation. But part of it does seem to be genetically selected behavior. A dog that will eagerly fling itself into a half-frozen lake, over and over to retrieve a duck needs to be a highly active, somewhat obessive, physically reckless animal. I would also suggest that selecting for strong human focus might interfere with a dog’s ability to socially connect with other dogs.
My dog park experience, purely anecdotal, does seem to bear this out. An adult labrador that actually likes and seeks the company of the other dogs is the exception, not the rule. Young dogs are often the victim of social “corrections” (tackling, pinning, growling) from older dogs who object to their excited approach, and labs over the age of two are very typically detached and disinterested in the presence of other dogs, and frequently are obsessively preoccupied with fetching, to the exclusion of social interaction with other dogs. So while a study that used 20 dogs of all different breeds would be confused by breed-related variability, and other purebreds would likely have their own sets of ideosyncratic behaviors to account for, labs in particular strike me as not the best candidates for studies of canine social interactions.
Ditto on golden retrievers.
I’m sorry if this comes off as critical. I don’t mean it that way. These are just my personal, non-scientific observations and NONE of them implies that labs or goldens are anything less than fantastic pets and working partners and hunting companions. But I am frustrated, sometimes, by owners who utterly dismiss the discomfort or hostility being shown by their ninety-pound dog because they themselves buy into the myth of the “bombproof retriever”. I wish that it were true, but my experience tells me otherwise…I don’t think that labs are more likely than average to be hostile toward other dogs, but there is a self-selection factor. People who own Rottweilers or pit bulls who show hostility to other dogs don’t bring them to the dog park, so that the rotties and pits that I MEET are model dog citizens, nearly 100% reliably appropriate and friendly, while labs hover somewhere around the 30% mark.
Debbie says
I have three females, four years, three years, and six months. They’re all spayed, if that matters.
They pee on top of each others pee all the time. They’ll sniff the ground interestedly and then pee. I get the feeling it’s like what Blair said, strength in numbers, or maybe,”hey, I’m with her!”
By the way, we have the same carpet, or at least we did, ours wore out after many years of kids and too many dogs. It’s funny, I’ve seen similar carpets, but none exactly the same. I had to do a double take.
Willie looks great, in the last picture he looks extremely interested in something. You’re right, they were pretty exuberant with the razor. I would stay away from the house too so he could sleep and not expect anything.
I’m glad your Sushi is clean, I hope she continues to thrive.
Beth says
I’ve been fascinated by this behavior for years and am glad you’re attempting to understand it better. I recall you made a comment at the Seattle seminar that NO ONE has ever studied this! I find that amazing.
So I have four dogs. With the exception of one, all are rescues with little known background and brought into the house at the age of one or older. Sy is now 16, adopted at about two yrs old and while she is no longer, was formerly a very “dominant” leader-type female. She’s fallen in rank as she has gotten older and weaker. Ja is a formerly low status, submissive type female, 7.5 yrs., adopted at one yr of age, who has risen in the ranks and is now the undisputed leader of the dogs and is fairly “dominant.” Yo is a 3-yr-old male, raised with the two females since he was 11 wks old, middle of the road most of the time and very comfortable in his place in the household. He’s not really status seeking, but the other dogs often readily surrender coveted things to him, even the dominant female, who’s known him since he was a puppy and (I feel) clearly shows some favoritism to him. Br is the fourth dog, an 18-mos old male, brought into the household approx. six mos. ago.
So here’s what happens. Sy deliberately watches where each dog urinates, especially Ja and immediately walks over to over-mark. If she’s preoccupied, she invariably sniffs the scent and makes a beeline and still over-marks. She consistently does this to Ja and to Yo, but not as much to Br. She is a female that also has always over-marked on strange dog’s urine and on coyote scat. She also lifts her leg very high (almost looks like a male) – even at her advanced age and with bad knees.
Ja started over-marking Sy’s urine fairly often shortly after Sy became injured and after tensions between the two females escalated. After some time and human management, things between them are agreeable now, but not the same ever since Yo joined the household. When Yo joined the household, Ja clearly became the “dominant” dog and the undisputed leader. Today, she will sometimes over-mark the urine of Sy, Yo and Br, but NOT always. However, she over-marks on the urine of strange dogs almost always and always over coyote scat. She too lifts her leg and deliberately will attempt to pee “higher” on stones, bushes, etc., on strange dogs’ pee.
Both Yo & Br do not over-mark at all on any urine of the dogs in the household. Yo only began lifting his leg at the age of 2.5 yrs, but not consistently and cannot see any discernible and deliberate marking. He does not mark over coyote scat.
Br does over-mark on the urine of strange dogs, but not consistently (age? unclear of rank?). I do feel he has confidence issues which he is still working out. I’ve never seen him over-mark on coyote scat.He always lifts his leg and aims VERY high to mark.
Whew – spent way too much time observing my furry pals!
Angel Stambaugh says
My thought on the photo: “Why are you taking a picture of me when I look like this?? You can NOT put that on the internet, Mom!!”.
Emily says
Since I didn’t comment on the last one. Mick is a 3-year-old, dominant, neutered male, TP high neutral (he’s docked, so it’s a bit tricky to tell, but I’d say it was slightly higher than usual. Also, he did an unusually high leg lift) overmarking familiar 4-year-old, submissive, neutered female. He doesn’t consistently overmark her, but it’s happened perhaps 6 times (she doesn’t live with us, she’s the next door neighbour’s dog, whom we sometimes walk with).
Beth says
I have a Pry right now who marks and even over marks. There are no other dogs in the house (we have three cats) but in his interaction with other dogs, he always marks over someone else’s urine- group walks and the two times I went to see how he would be at the dog park. (BTW- the dog park wasn’t a great idea as he stands over dogs for extended periods of time and is a “humper”.) A neighbor’s dog that he would see regularly through the fence when he was a younger was an un-neutered male who would pee directly on him almost everytime they saw each other through the fence. It was odd because their body language would tell you that they liked each other for the most part.
Anywho the Pyr also will mark new things in the house at time. He also checks out what you bring home from shopping. This tail position is always high when he does it. Infact, for the first two years I had him his tail was stuck in the air. I thought his tail was broken because it never lowered.
I am very interest in urine marking habits so if you keep talking about the pee it’s perfectly okay with me.
liz says
Dog 1=Male, TP high (on average, though fluctuates often), OM regularly on familiar and unfamiliar dogs.
Dog 2=Female, TP med, does not OM regularly, occasionally OM on unfamiliar dogs
Lauren Norwood says
My friend’s dog, Shade, will overmark ANY other dog’s urine, even old accidents on the carpet that we thought we cleaned up… He’s a German Shepherd/Labrador mix, 3 years, intact male (& was bred at least 3x w/their neighbor’s dog), high tail position, higher ranking. Didn’t always get along with other males in the neighborhood, especially when his “girlfriend” was in heat. On walks he will mark almost any vertical object that he passes (which get annoying quickly), paying extra attention to places other dogs have been.
My brother’s dog, Vegas (a Whippet/Terrier mix), is 2-3 years old, spayed female, doesn’t have a tail, and is submissive. I don’t think I’ve ever seen her OM another dog’s urine. She mostly just does her business and that’s that.
Carolyn says
Just the facts:
Five year old Neutered Male with medium tail position overmarks six year old spayed female with medium tale position. Dogs are housemates since male was 11 weeks old. Female would get food tossed between them, male would wait for food to be tossed to him.
My background and interpretation: female is a Golden who was spayed last summer, male is a Golden/Sheltie mix neutered at 8 months. Male ADORES female exhibits anxiety when separated and much excitement and muzzle licking when reunited. Male is also protective of female. He would also show sexual behaviors when female was in heat and receptive (athough he always humped her head or side), never when she was not receptive. There is no social or resource tension between the two dogs. The male ALWAYS overmarks the female and will retrace her steps to do it or will wait until she finishes to overmark.
I think it is a combo of protective (don’t mess with my sister, she has a protector (especially when she was in heat)) and group thing (hey I with her, we are a pack) since it is more important to him than it is to her.
They both regularly pee by dead animals and coyote scat, but don’t really overmark other dogs.
Harley Harrington says
It is my contention that a dog will urinate to leave information for other dogs. This information will tell others about the health and mental state of any dog who comes to smell this spot. Other dogs will urinate on the same spot to leave their own message for the next dog that comes to check his pee-mail. When a dog is practicing dominace,ie humping, pushing, or standing over other dogs,this is a reflexion of a lack of leadership and training. When a dog is well trained and is being shown how to behave by a responsible and knowledgeable owner, there is no need for these adolesent behaviors.After all are we not the dominant species on the planet?
Beth says
Oh my, there are a lot of Beth’s here now! Beth with the Corgis here. 🙂
I wanted to follow up to em’s post about lab’s, even though it’s a bit off-topic. I have a slightly different perspective, but then our dogs’ play-group plays off-leash in a quiet area of a regular park that is not fenced, so our group mostly has owners of well-trained dogs.
My perspective is that many labs dearly love other dogs, but their cluelessness of where their body is in space tends to mean they only play well with other dogs that don’t mind being run over. So as they age, it’s not that they don’t like dogs, more that they have been pinned so many times by dogs who say “enough!’ that they tend to be a bit more selective about play partners. And yes, I agree they become obsessed with tennis balls and would prefer to chase than play. But then, I have Corgis who are obsessed with scouring the ground for edibles and would rather do that than play with other dogs, so I sympathize with the lab owners.
From my perspective, I LOVE to see labs in the play group because for many other dogs, playing with the Corgis means watching their expressions turn from gleeful, happy “Hooray, we are playing chase!” to “OH MY GOD, what are these stubby little dogs DOING to me!”. Corgis are not often the most popular dog at the dog park because their herding style (chasing and sometimes nipping) is not appreciated by every other dog. I have learned to watch carefully and call my dogs off if the chasee’s expression turns from open-mouthed relaxed grin to wide-eyed. I have seen one or two actually tuck their tails and flee when my two decide they’ll both chase at the same time.
Labs, on the other hand, not only don’t care where their own bodies are but are generally very tolerant of physical roughness. They like being chased by the Corgis, nips on the arse and all! 🙂
Frances says
One difference between most of the observations in these comments and Dr Lisberg’s study is that we are for the most part observing dogs in groups (if two can be a group), whereas I think from her methodology she was testing each dog alone with just samples. The “safety in numbers” explanation would only apply if both dogs were marking at much the same time. It would be interesting to repeat the experiment with several dogs at a time (of course, this may form part of the original methodology?).
Barb says
I”m not in on the marking discussion mainly because it’s sporadic and not too remarkable with my three. Now eating poop — I would be in that discussion!
Anyway, another comment about marking with urine. Tangential, I know. I was at a friend’s and her german shepard came up to me with his cloth frisbee. We chatted, but I wasn’t there to play with him and didn’t play with him. He walked a ways away, dropped the frisbee, and peed directly on the frisbee. At first I thought he’d made a mistake, but he peed a lot, and when he was done, he stepped over the frisbee. So he knew where it was. It wasn’t like he forgot that he put it there! When my friend came out of the house, she said that he had done that on at least two other occasions. Facinating.
Rachel Pfister says
I have a 14 year old retired spayed female Border Collie, “Belle”. I also have two female Australian Shepherds. Belle is supremely confident but not what I would call ‘dominant’. She was a bold and talented herder on ducks, cattle and sheep. Belle is my only ‘marker’. She does not overmark the urine of my other two dogs but she overmarks lots and lots of things on our walks – I assume urine though I can’t see it and lots of poop including coyote poop. My assumption is that she is overmarking unfamiliar pee and poop but who knows. The ‘depositors’ may be familiar to her by scent. How do we ever really know what goes on in their wonderful heads!
Jennifer Hamilton says
Female High Tail Position Overmarks Familiar Lower Starus Female (the lower status female I would not characterize as submissive, but between the two of them, the overmarker is the higher status). Also, the overmarker does not overmark the lowest status and clearly more submissive familiar female in the household. She doesn’t seem to have any interest in her urine.
Pike says
Willie’s thought: You are doing WHAT with my picture?!?
So glad to hear that he is healing well and such a good physical therapy dog!
Just the facts:
4yr old, female, hound mix, spayed, status seeking, high tail, leg lifter, om’s some unfamiliar dogs, om’s almost all dogs she is familiar with (but who are not pack members), never om’s my other two dogs pee spots.
10 yr old, female, Pom (high tail by breed), spayed, submissive, leg lifter, om’s almost all unfamiliar and familiar dogs (incl. her two pack members)
17 yr old (behavior is from his younger days when he could still lift his leg), male, Port. Water Dog, neutered, status seeking, med TP, om’s some unfamiliar dogs, om’s most dogs he is familiar with (but who are not pack members), rarely om’s my other two dogs pee spots.
Ashley says
10-13 year old spayed female(no idea exact age, she’s a rescue) Shih tzu/poddle Med tail position, highest ranking in the pack. She lifts her leg, over marks and marks next to unfamiliar marks. Will sometimes over mark my other female
!0 year old spayed female terrier mix. Second ranking in pack, dominant with other dogs but not status seeking. High tail position, doesn’t seem to care about marking. When on walks she will sometimes mark near another dog’s mark.
7 year old neutered male shih tzu, lowest ranking in pack(poor guy). High tail due to breed. Does not over mark other 2 dogs but will over mark other dog’s marks while outside our home/yard.
Hopefully that helps.
H says
I am glad your Willie is coping so well. And I find the topic about over marking very interesting. It is something I have wondered about for years myself, but never have been able to answer.
Here are the facts:
12 year old spayed female lurcher. High social status, is very social with other dogs, low tail position before peeing. Over marks mostly bird droppings (mainly those from herons) outside in the park or on walks. Used to over mark unfamiliar females sometimes, but stopped doing that once she got older (about three years ago?). She also over marks me, when I am out in the wilderness without a toilet at hand 🙂 Used to be a leg lifter when she was younger, but I guess old age is making that difficult for her now. Tail position used to be higher as well.
10 year old spayed female Sloughia (Arabian sighthound), low social status, (she was not properly socialized with other dogs in her youth and will bark at unfamiliar dogs who come to close to the pack boundaries), low tail position. Has always over marked the 12 year old lurcher. Will even stand behind her and wait for her to finish peeing, so she can pee on top of her pee.
7 year old spayed female Sloughia, social status is changing. Was low, but is becoming higher since the arrival of our youngest dog (see below). Social with other dogs, both male and female, but can be confrontational when challenged by another dog. Tail position is low before peeing, pees extremely low to the ground. Will occasionally over mark the older pack members, but not very often. Does not over mark the younger pack member.
3 year old unspayed Caravan Hound (Indian Sighthound), social status rising (we rescued her about a year ago and she is still recovering both physically as well as mentally from a very traumatic past, not properly socialized), leg lifter, tail high before peeing. Does not over mark the pee of other dogs, both familiar as well as unfamiliar, but will mark interesting smells (like dead fish, cow dung, etc.). She will even pee on top of another familiar dogs head, when this dog is sniffing something interesting. High tail position and leg lifting as well when she marks the interesting smell.
I always thought the over marking had something to do with saying “we belong together”. And I guess the 3 year old is just telling the world, “I was here too” when another dog comes to smell the interesting smell.
Mary says
Stats on my dogs:
8yr old MN collie, dominant only when it comes to food and treats, never OM my other dog’s urine, will OM on walks, TP med
5yr old MN BC, gives way to other dog on food (perhaps because the collie outweighs him by 25 pounds and the collie was with us first), otherwise is probably higher status than the collie because he runs ahead of him on walks???, sometimes OM the collie, will OM on walks, TP med.
This is anthropomorphizing, but I have wondered if my younger dog is OM the older one because the older one had been ill, and by OM, the BC was saying “I’m taking care of him – he’s my responsibilty”. Perhaps Tulip never OM your other dogs because she didn’t feel responsible for them – she was responsible for the sheep, and the sheep were her pack??.
Years old I was walking with a friend and his dogs, and his GSD (a natural, benevolent leader) OM my dog’s bowel movement. Even though they weren’t members of the same household, they knew each other well, and had been in each other’s houses. That dog naturally took care of all dogs that my friend fostered, and I can imagine that he was saying “I’m responsible for this dog” when he was OM. Of course that wouldn’t explain OM unfamiliar dogs’ urine.
Lyssa says
When my neutered males overmarks, at least 90% of the time it’s over the urine of several dominant females he’s close friends with and somewhat possessive of – will run off other males trying to interact or play with the female. While he’s a “dominant” with other dogs (highly likely to “win” a challenge or resource) he defers to these specific females. Interestingly, his tail position is high before he overmarks the urine from one of his girlfriends.
He will overmark any urine from an intact male, familiar or stranger, regardless of their status.
He rarely overmarks any of his familiar neutered male friends and they usually will defer to him. On 2 rare occurances, when he has deferred to one of his neutered male friends over something (once it was over “possession” of a female) he has overmarked the “winner’s” urine, but still had a high tail position before marking.
Facts:
9 yr old, male (neutered), cocker mix, dominant, high tail position before overmarking the urine of:
-7 yr old, familiar female (spayed) siberian mix, dominant – high tail position before urinating
-5 yr old, familiar female, (spayed) standard poodle, dominant – high tail position before urinating
– 7 yr old, familiar female, (spayed) border collie mix, dominant -high tail position before urination
I’m curious about the coyote scat marking issue. My dog marks over any coyote scat (old or new) he finds (followed by a lot of foot pad scratching & dirt kicking) and will occasional overmark day-old bear scat (never followed by foot scratching, though.) I haven’t noticed him overmarking any new bear scat, but usually when we start coming across fresh bear scat I decide it’s a good time to turn around.
teresavet says
Glad to hear Willie is doing so well, postops can be frustrating.
Katie says
Hopefully doing this gives you some great ideas for more rigorous research 🙂
3 yo golden-poodle mix, female, spayed, medium social status, avoids all other dog marks- normally with tail medium, but with tail low for unfamiliar, intact males, and she does everything she can to get as far away from it as possible.
4 yo eskimo-poodle mix, female, spayed, low status, overmarks unfamiliar dogs sporadically, with medium/high tail
2 yo lab/bassett mix, female, spayed, low status, marks next to familiar female dogs’ poop, but not urine
Sarah says
I have 3 Staffordshire Bull Terriers. Tully, 9 yr-old spayed female is the dam of Tess, 5 yr-old female (also now spayed), who is the dam of 15 month-old Pirate, an intact male. Neither of the bitches overmark to my knowledge. Pirate does sometimes overmark. I would say his tail position is medium.
None of them, to my knowledge, overmark strange dogs. Pretty sure that Pirate does not, since at this point, he does not mark when I am walking them.
It’s difficult to say the social ranking of any of them, it’s not at all clearly defined in their interactions. Tully, the eldest, has been severely weakened by Cushings disease in the last 6 months, so her likelihood of getting a coveted item has decreased, but she will still try. Pirate, the overmarker, is not mature and still has a lot of puppy behaviors. He will offer appeasement gestures to strange adult dogs that tell him off. (though when we were charged by a loose dog when on a walk, he seemed ready to fight with it) He is not terribly respectful of his dam or granddam, but is mostly just a bratty puppy.
Veronique says
Facts:
4 yr old, male (neutered), Pembroke Welsh Corgi, dominant when he feels he can get away with it – shows belly when not, high stubby tail position before overmarking (and sometimes impatiently peeing on top of the dog) the urine of:
-3 yr old, familiar female (spayed) Pembroke Welsh Corgi, mostly submissive and very insecure, hence sometimes fear-“aggressive” (all posturing, no actual contact). No tail at all and pees in a squat, I think non-existent tail down. “Dominant” about food, even when she doesn’t want it. She will attack the male over food and other resources she wants and male usually just backs down or defends himself. He does not initiate (until recently, steroids make him ravenous all the time.)
– Male also pees over unfamiliar dogs’ pee most of the time. Don’t know about coyotes.
Neither dogs are sick. Male was recently diagnosed with an auto-immune disease where he gets an infection in his colon if he doesn’t take steroids. This has not affected the “peeing relationship”.
Susan G. says
So interesting! Oscar is a 3 1/2 year old neutered male, mixed breed. He overmarks known and unknown dogs with a medium-high tail position. He will overmark coyote urine, I believe, but has never marked scat. There is the occasional mark which he will go out of his way to completely avoid, both in the woods and in the neighborhood. He also does a lot of foot scratching, sometimes more than others. I try not to let him do this on people’s yards, but it does seem as though he does more of it in the woods (because I let him do more but also because he seems to find it necessary). He is of medium status.
I’m glad you and Willie are doing okay with the recovery so far. He is such a great, smart and patient dog.
Thanks for discussing such an interesting topic!
Laurel says
I live in a triplex which had (until last month) 5 dogs, all of whom hung out in the yard together at various times. In roughly ascending order of social status:
Tilden (upstairs neighbors’ female 1-year-old black-and-tan mix, about 30 pounds): never overmarks. Tilden defers on resources to all the other dogs when they’re both going for the same item (though she will hide under a table and try to defend a food item) and when she does try to get a desirable toy from another dog it’s in a submissive way with a lot of tooth-licking and belly-wriggling.
Otter (my almost 2-year-old female lab/border collie): doesn’t overmark in the yard – my partner says she may have overmarked Tilden’s urine, but I can’t remember seeing that. Otter values play, food, and status in that order. When there’s a dog whose status relationship to her is unclear (my friend’s Malinois, for example) she will occasionally do guarding behaviors around very high value treats like bones once she already hast them, but she’ll let a human or a high status dog take things away from her and is willing to take on essentially any role in order to get another dog to play with her.
Billy (neighbor’s 11-year-old neutered male black lab): doesn’t overmark. Also not that interested in status – Otter will take a ball from in front of him if she can get to it faster, but she won’t grab it out of his mouth. He doesn’t defend resources particularly, or try to take them, but Otter and Tilden don’t try to get things from him directly.
Tessa (neighbor’s 11-year-old spayed female heeler/Aussie mix): overmarks Otter, Tilden, sometimes Billy. Very interested in defending resources and space, and totally refuses to allow other dogs to do any dominant behaviors (humping, looming, etc) towards her. Not very interested in interfering with other dogs unless they have a food resource. Can’t say much about her tail position as she has a bobbed tail – her body language as she approaches to mark is assertive but relaxed.
Moho (upstairs neighbor’s 10-year-old spayed female Rottweiler): overmarks everyone. Otter and Billy and Tess will be out in the yard, they’ll pee, then Moho will come out and find all the pee spots and overmark them. She’s incredibly dominant: will go take toys or food away from other dogs, and if Otter and Tilden start playing she’ll charge over and loom and bark at them. In contrast with Tessa, who doesn’t want other dogs dominating her but is otherwise not that interested in status, Moho actively seeks confirmation of her own dominant status – submissive/appeasing behaviors from other dogs, resources she might otherwise not want, etc. Her tail is also bobbed, but her demeanor as she marks is very assertive/aggressive: chest up, head up, and when she actually squats she does a sort of partial leg lift.
I can’t say much about the urine of unfamiliar dogs, since it’s hard to say if a dog is peeing next to or on top of an old pee spot. Otter and Tessa definitely leave marks (little driblets of pee, rather than the larger volume when she needs to urinate) on walks. Billy doesn’t, but that might just be that it’s a lot of work for him to lift his leg now that his hips have gotten so bad. I don’t go for walks with the other two.
A couple of strictly anecdotal observations: in my experience only dogs who are especially concerned about status overmark at all. This doesn’t strictly track winning resource competitions – from your description, Tulip sounded like a high status dog who just wasn’t that concerned about demonstrating it all the time. Also in my experience, labs and goldens (the family gun dogs) are less concerned about status than the average dog. My parents’ two herding mix dogs, my neighbor’s heeler, and the upstairs Rottweiler are all much more worried about status than any lab I have ever met.
Kristine says
I think this is fascinating!
I don’t know if this will help but I have noticed another dog we take agility classes with over-marking my female dog’s urine. He is a young Shiba Inu so his tail is pretty much always up. I wouldn’t call him submissive but I know if there was to be a battle for a bone, my dog would probably win as she has confidence up the wazoo and this little guy is a bit more hesitant about things.
I have noticed over time that he will almost always over-mark in the same spot my dog went, even after he has urinated somewhere else already.
So glad to hear Willie loves you again! I didn’t think it would take long for that to change!
Ettel E says
Ah, I’ve been busy with foster puppies and totally missed this discussion until now! And I’m fascinated!
I have a 10 yo neutered late (6 yo) male Miniature Poodle. He’s very insecure around most other dogs (especially males, especially intact males), but puts up a HUGE defensive front and acts the “dominant” role, if we want to use those terms. Lots of growling and snapping at dogs he’s uncomfortable with if they get too close, or dog forbid, jump on him. Sometimes it gets him the bone, other times it gets him a fight, thankfully his “sister” dog will generally ignore/avoid/give up to his antics, though he rarely puts them on for her. He is a serious over marker. He’s one of those dogs who’ll get into the “you pee, I pee, you pee, I pee . . . ” rhythm. I’d say it’s most noticeable with unknown male dogs, though he will overmark here and there with familiar males. I have not seen him overmark females (I think). Well, maybe he’d overmark a female who overmarked on him. He *definitely* holds his tail up high when he’s overmarking, it seems to me to be related to his general social anxiety and defensive state – if he sees a dog and gets tense (which leads to tail up), he’ll pee on something, tail still held up from his tenseness, and only relax once he’s peed. I know that’s not exactly what you’re talking about, just thought I’d mention it, and his tail’s definitely up when he’s overmarking (if he’s near another dog, especially unknown, his tail’s up high).
I also have a 5 (?) yo female, spayed late (4 yo?) APBT who very rarely overmarks, but has. It’s always to old urine, so I don’t know who she’s responding to. She generally keeps her tail low, and I don’t think she raises her tail when she overmarks, though she will raise one of her hind legs. She’s a very easy going dog, but she does resource guard. Not sure where someone might put her on the dominance spectrum, she’ll let other dogs get away with quite a lot and has excellent doggy skills, but if she really wants something she’ll put up a terrific fight.
Once again, another fantastic topic!
And so happy to see that Willie’s doing OK!
Barb says
No comments on marking. Just wanted to say I recognize that expression on the second picture of Willie – that’s the look our Aussie, Zanzi, gives me when she’s saying “whaaat?”
Apr says
I think you’ll find this interesting:
Female, 4 yr old Golden, TP OM’s infrequently onto Unknown, never onto Dom Fam.
** This is new for Bella. She really only started this behavior during her last heat cycle, and it seems to have stuck somewhat. I thought it was silly that she was “leaving her scent” for the boys to find. What a flirt. She was the “under-marker”! I know this because she would leave just a tiny amount, and there was no sniffing of other scents involved. She would just be running around in the sage brush and suddenly stop and squat. I loved the idea of her leaving her scent for the coyotes! Hah!
She now overmarks randomly, maybe once every few days or weeks when we’re out on our hikes. I’ll say this for her. I’ve never seen her overmark dogs she’s familiar with who are “dominant”. I think she actively avoids their pee or pretends not to notice!
Apr says
Oh, and Bella is definitely submissive. She’s friendly and displays very polite greeting and play behaviors with the other dogs. She won’t put up with bullies, though. She’ll turn away, but if they keep at it she’ll growl. If they keep at it she’ll give a little snarl. If they still keep at it she’ll bark/lunge.
She finished her heat cycle 2 months ago, btw.
Shows no aggression or desire to be dominant over anything, except perhaps if someone she likes calls a dog over to play she’ll go over too and try to butt in by nosing her way in between the dog and human. Can you be “dominant” over attention? I wouldn’t call it dominant, I’d just call it “rude”. 😀
Apr says
Beth, you’re so right on labs! We have one staying with us at the moment (her owner is “renting” a room for a few months), and her Space-Cluelessness drives me crazy. She’s sweet as can be, but once you get her playing with my two goldens, it’s as if she intentionally tries to bulldoze them. And she runs into me like it’s no big deal. Argh, I hate labs today. So reading your post was perfect because I don’t really hate them, I just really needed to vent. Thanks!
DeAnna says
Corrie is a 3-year old neutered male BC/GSD/mutt. He was neutered at 8 weeks by the shelter he came from. High tail carriage always, but his bravado is all for show. Always loses in any debate over access to space or toys. Somewhat fear-reactive. Does not overmark familiar urine, occasionally overmarks unfamiliar urine but not obsessively. Recently, upon meeting a new strange female GSD (spay status unknown, tail neutral to high, tense greeting), she moved aside quickly from the initial greeting and left a little urine in the grass. Corrie smelled and overmarked and moved aside quickly; strange GSD sniffed his mark. After that exchange, the greeting was notably less tense. My impression was that the strange dog was in control of the situation and Corrie was doing as he was told.
Our good friend and frequent walking friend is Callie, a 13-year old spayed* Walker Coonhound. Tail carriage always level or low. Will win in a contest for food or space, but won’t actually make another dog move off her bed if it’s already there. ALWAYS overmarks familiar urine (from Corrie especially, but also other familiar dogs that we walk with regularly). Not sure about unfamiliar. Particularly in her yard (but also in other places), if Corrie pees anywhere, she immediately overmarks. We took a scent tracking class together last summer and after class just the two of us and our dogs had stayed after and let the dogs run around in the field. Callie’s owner and I stood by the gate and chatted. Callie soon got tired and came to stand with us. I happened to notice Corrie peeing on something across the field. About a minute later, Callie’s nose shot up into the air, and she trotted directly across the field to the spot where Corrie had peed and overmarked it. She has also been known to lift a leg to overmark pee on a vertical surface.
*She was spayed at 1 year, but at 12 years old went into heat again. The spay had not completely removed all the tissue and she had regrown enough tissue to enter a heat cycle. I don’t know how that would affect hormones for the 11 years inbetween.
Frances says
I walk three dogs – two of my own, and one of a neighbour’s.
Sophy, Papillon, 2.5 years, very self confident, socially adept with people and dogs, and secure in her status, almost permanent high tail carriage unless severely frightened because of breed. Overmarks Poppy when in our own grounds, otherwise is usually first to overmark when we are out walking.
Poppy, toy poodle, 2 years, innately rather shy, but more confident now after considerable gentle socialisation. Will usually give way to Sophy, and follows her lead in most things (memo to self – must take her out on her own more so she learns to rely on her own judgment a bit more!). TP – neutral to low. Overmarks familiar dog scent at home, overmarks Sophy when we are out, unless she finds a spot Sophy has missed, when she will – very, very occasionally – mark herself.
And my neighbour’s dog – Jilly, border terrier, 5-6 years, happy and confident with people, can be dog reactive with some other dogs (especially spaniels, terriers, and pups and adolescents). She is fine if put on a lead and given a little space – otherwise prone to a pre-emptive strike. She was, however, very long suffering with my two when they were pups, and they are all very good friends. TP neutral to high. I have not been able to establish any pattern in her marking – sometimes she is first, sometimes last, sometimes the only one to mark.
Laurie says
I have two male dogs. One constantly over marks the other. In fact, we joke that the best way to get him tp pee at night so you can go in is for the other dog to pee. The over marker is the dog I would describe as the one who thinks he is in charge. Occasionally the other dog will pee second. He will wait for dog a to pee, and then sniff there and pee nearby. But with the first dog, he hardly waits and all and will mark directly over or above if on a vertical surface…
Thanks for keeping us thinking and watching.
Laurie says
Ps. No tails… Or at least to minimal to observe. Aussies.
Jeff says
I commented before, about the 2 labs that overmark each other constantly and the presa that is the dominant dog in the house and she doesn’t even want to go where they went.
Anyway about social status. I believe the 2 labs are currently in dispute over their ranks in the social order. One lab is 2 and a half, the other just turned 1 year old 3 weeks ago. The older one is trying to assert his dominance, in other ways, attempting to hump etc. However the younger one is starting to stand his ground and not let himself be humped. I noticed this really starting to play more this weekend. They also only do this when the presa is not around as she will set them both straight. Like I said before there is no doubt in my mind she is the dominant dog. However, they struggle seems to be the two labs below her trying to determine their place. Now that the other lab is 1 year old he is trying to establish his place and the other seems to want to keep his place. The 1 year old goes and tries to I think challenge the presa every now and then which is pretty much futile. I am not sure what he does as he well never do it when I am looking. I will just all of a sudden hear a loud bark and growl out of the presa and the 1 year old will come running with tail between his legs and put me between him and the general direction of the presa. So maybe the over marking happens at a different social order, rather than the alpha role.
Kerry says
Ooh. I love this topic because when I first got Ayla 15 years ago, I thought there was something very odd in my must-mark-at-all-costs female dog. Now it just seems so normal to me that I’m surprised when people are still confused about a female who likes to mark.
15yo spayed female. Ayla OMs constantly. Would overmark both male dogs in the household, both dominant to her, but more interested in OM scents already on the ground, so hard to know who she is mostly overmarking, but historically she is pretty submissive to most dogs. Tail position unknown since I don’t remember from when she was younger and she has arthritis now so it is always low.
13yo neutered male. Skinner never OMed. How lovely to walk like this. Just a joy. Very dominant. Would win almost every resource against any dog – usually by benevolent means such as space blocking. He has since passed on but I always thought it interesting that he was so dominant and never OMed.
3yo neutered male. Huck OMs frequently, but most interested in scents already on ground and his dominance level varies. He’s generally mid-pack. Marks about half of the spaces that Ayla does so not as interested as she is. He will (very annoyingly) pee on Ayla’s head if they are both sniffing the same scent. I’ve been wondering how other dogs react to this. Ayla just looks confused, like she is thinking what just happened there. Huck doesn’t seem to care or notice one way or another if she is there. It seems very rude to me but I’m not sure if this is the case in the canine world. Anyone have any insight into whether this is impolite doggy behavior or not? It always results in positive punishment for him in the form of a bath but I think the timing will never be close enough for an association, sadly.
Lyssa says
Forgot to mention 2 other females that he has overmarked
Facts:
9 yr old, male (neutered), cocker mix, dominant, high tail position before overmarking the urine of:
-7 yr old, familiar female (spayed) rottie mix, very dominant -high tail position before urinating
-6 yr old, familiar female (spayed) akita/rot mix, dominant(she’s also somewhat possessive of my dog as a resource when other female dogs approach) – high tail position before urinating
Interestingly, we went on a walk yesterday with a semi-familiar male, in that my dog has met him a few times but never socialized with him. On the walk, my male insisted on overmarking every single place this male urinated.
So 1 more to add:
9 yr old, male (neutered), cocker mix, dominant, high tail position before overmarking the urine of:
3 yr old, male (neutered) shitzu, status unknown, high tail position when urinating
Lyssa says
Helene brings up an interesting point – overmarking human urine. Is this a status or possession issue? When out in the woods and far from the car, I have occasionally had to urinate. My male will overmark if given the chance, with a high tail position, IIRC.
Angela says
My 2 year old neutered male border collie very often overmarks unfamiliar male dogs at the dog park. He also overmarks his neighborhood friends (also males), but not so much our other dog (12 year old female). His tail is carried in a medium position as he approaches the spot (but I saw him hitch his tail up into a high position right before he started to urinate). I would not classify him as dominant – as you state above, he somewhat lacks confidence in his ability to secure a resource, and will almost always yield to other dogs rather than cause trouble (it’s a different story if he’s actually in possession of the desired resource).
Tori says
Very happy to hear the good news for Sushi! And happy that Willy is recouperating so well.
Susan says
Gimmel is a 6 YO spayed female, very confident and sometimes dog reactive Welsh Terrier. I’ve never seen her overmark, but she does mark a few steps from a scent she investigates. We often walk with a friend and her 4 YO spayed female Corgi, who is a bit anxious and who defers to Gimmel always. Lola overmarks Gimmel’s urine every time Gimmel urinates.
Kat says
Absolutely fascinating discussion. The more I read of the comments the more I think that marking has a number of different contexts and meanings. I’m thinking it can be broken down into territorial (overmarking coyote scat), affiliative (I’m with him/her), protective (covering the scent of a sick dog or a dog under the protection of the marker), and status (or if you like dominance). No doubt there are many others that I’m missing but those are the categories I’m seeing.
Ranger is a high status dog. I can’t really say he’s dominant because he wouldn’t necessarily be the one to get the scarce resource (mostly I think because he doesn’t value them) but I can definitely say high status as the majority of the dogs he meets offer him affiliative gestures such as linking his mouth or making themselves small before him and I’ve never seen him offer those gestures to another dog. He overmarks tail high mostly but sometimes medium high. This morning he met one of his friends an unneutered BC mix male in an unfamiliar place. Both the dogs walk there frequently but haven’t seen each other there before. I was interested to observe that after their initial greeting they ran to the edge of the area and marked side by side both with tails high. Ranger neutered male) added foot scraping to his and then they went off to play. If I can be permitted a bit of anthropomorphizing it looked to me like they were signing an agreement to jointly own the territory and not have to over mark each other.
Lindsay says
I walk a lot of dogs, about 10 different dogs per day, and I notice that the dogs with poor social skills are the ones that obsessively over mark. And I do think there is a big difference between over marking here and there and over marking every single spot. These obsessive over markers could be males or females, intact or not. It doesn’t really matter. They just all have poor social skills but are often mistakenly labeled “dominant” because they tend to act defensive and bark or snap at strangers or new dogs. It’s like they are so insecure that they have to pee on everything to make themselves known. They also tend to be the dogs that get little or no interaction with other dogs. So maybe they are just desperate to communicate 🙂
Janice says
Fascinating discussion. I wanted to throw out one other thought for consideration. Dogs’ sense of smell is so great that they can smell if the urine came from a person with bladder cancer just from the scent change from a few cancerous cells that exfoliated into the urine or perhaps some physiological change in the urine from being in contact with the cancerous cells. We have no idea what they are smelling. We also have no idea what seizure alert dogs are smelling either. This is a universe beyond our fathoming. So we are looking at visual signals(because this is what we can perceive) to try to interpret a behavior that is directed at a voided fluid which is full of scents we can not perceive. While it is interesting thing to consider, it may be hubris to try to come up with an explanation based upon visual cues. One thing that I considered is the “tail up” signal that was reported. I have border collies who fairly consistently carry their tails down low when working but have their tails up when aroused. Barking at a car or the geese coming up the driveway–tail carried up. So perhaps the “tail up” dog that over-marks is simply one that is responding with a higher degree of arousal to something that he or she detects in the urine or the social situation. It may not have anything to do with social status at all except in so far as how much the social situation in that precise moment in time is lending to a sense of arousal in the over-marking dog. What that dog is detecting in the urine–do we even have the ability to conceive what a dog can perceive with their nose? It might be like asking a South Sea Islander to describe all the different kinds of snow. What a dog can detect with their olfaction may be so complex that we who can not detect such things may have no ability to mentally categorize it.
There is a theory about cats that when cats live in feral colonies, they have marking locations within the colony that all the cats in the colony will strop with their cheek glands as they pass. The theory posited is that the cats in the colony are creating a “group scent” that identifies individual members as belonging to the colony. Cat colonies are very insular and take a long time to permit an outsider into the colony and so this group scent may be a form of community identification. I wonder if over-marking in canids by either combining with (urinating close by) or covering over a scent that the dog considers to not belong in the community (like overmarking coyote pee). And the tail-up, more aroused dog may be the one with a greater need to take part in this activity as a way of trying to control the environment to be something more safe to that dog.
A thought about Willie barking when you are outside gardening…would it be possible for you to have a crate or small X-pen in the garden so that he can join you there while you do your gardening? When my children were small, the only way that I got any gardening done (and I really needed it to maintain my sanity) was to put a playpen in the garden, so they could be in a controlled safe environment close by and I could still get some weeding done.
Frances says
Just to add another angle, my cats will try to tidy up after the dogs by scratching earth and leaves over any fresh urine etc they find. I won’t go into how the dogs tidy up after the cats – I’m sure most of you already know only too well!
Katy says
Interesting topic, and one that I have been wondering about because I have noticed that my dog’s behavior has changed with age. I have two dogs, Claire who is 10 and Yuki (male) who is 5. Claire is a confident dog around other dogs, whom we often refer to as Miss Manners because she lets the other dogs know when they are being rude/dominant. Tail position is usually medium. Yuki’s got a curly tail and it is usually up over his back but I would classify him as submissive to Claire. Claire almost always pees first and Yuki pees over her pee. Additionally when we walk with our neighbor’s dog – female, docked tail, very submissive – that dog will pee over Yuki’s and vice versa but Claire never over marks with either of them.
Jili says
This is very interesting! And now, I watch our pups often when they go out in the yard to see what they’re doing.
In our backyard, the male (2.5 yrs) often over marks the female’s (3 yrs) urine or feces with a MedTP. Sometimes he follows her around and will stand right behind her as she “goes” and then over mark. She never does that to the male. Occasionally, perhaps 5% of the time, the female will over mark the male a while after he’s gone (she has a curled tail so it’s usually up).
On a leashed walk, they will both mark on areas where other dogs seem to have urinated, but rarely the same places. In an off-leash park, the male will over mark the female or many other dogs with a MedTP.
She is the more confident and independent dog (we got her as a puppy), the male is more insecure and attention-seeking (we got him as a rescue at 10 mo).
Kyra Collins says
We hike regularly on gated logging roads here in the Pacific Northwest – lots of coyote scat – and every single dog EXCEPT our female Lab (who in her quiet way is the dominant dog in the pack) overmarks the coyote scat. Males and females. The female Lab is the only dog in our pack whom I have never seen overmarking anyone. I don’t think she needs to, she has been in charge of the pack for 10 years, she just really doesn’t care about these tiny points of protocol. Details. 🙂
Scout: spayed female 14 yo submissive/(passive is a better description) Staffie always overmarks the Lab female. Medium tail position. The males generally overmark on each other, except for the 4 yo male rat terrier who always overmarks the Lab and also pees on her while she is still peeing. He has delusions of grandeur. All our males are JRT foster dogs and have docked tails, the rattie has almost zero tail, so I cannot describe tail position with any accuracy. 4 mos old JRT female puppy undocked tail overmarks coyote scat also. Hard to tell sometimes if they are just overmarking each other or the actual scat – depends who goes first. The Staffie ALWAYS pees on coyote scat AND does the back leg scoop afterwards pretty blatantly.
Anne says
“I walk a lot of dogs, about 10 different dogs per day, and I notice that the dogs with poor social skills are the ones that obsessively over mark….”
Lindsay’s statement absolutely applies to our situation. Out of our three, the insecure male who was possibly a poorly socialized rescue obsessively marks where our other two dogs (younger male and younger female) have just peed…sometimes peeing on them before they’re done. This sweet but somewhat nutty insecure male will also mark every bush, tree, and post on our walks, if we let him.
He’s also a Northern breed, so his tail is always high.
And just as Lindsay notes, he fits this description:
“They just all have poor social skills but are often mistakenly labeled
Love My Dog Training says
nearly 2 yo NM Vizsla, High TP (but Vizslas normal/relaxed TP is high, so it’s not a change from his normal TP) “wannabe dom” overmarks family 9 yo “dom” SF, all visiting dogs (F&M, “dom” & “submissive”); also overmarks any other dogs he can when out on walks in public (most of our walks are on our acreage, so he doesn’t walk in public daily)
9 yo SF Greyhound, “dom” occassionally overmarks fam NM (see above) but mostly ignores where he goes; sometimes overmarks visiting dogs, M or F; would be considered “dom” with visiting dogs as well, does not play with or make friends with other dogs, mostly lets others know she wants to be left alone; will overmark when out in public sometimes
Both dogs above will overmark coyote scat
JJ says
7 year old Great Dane, neutered male.
Single dog. When we go to the dog park, Duke overmarks other dog’s pee fairly often. I watched his tail this last time and it was high. But then again, Duke’s tail is always high when he pees, even when he is peeing alone in the backyard.
Unclear on his over dominance scale. In going after toys at the dog park when other dogs are running after the same toys and both dogs get there about the same time: sometimes Duke will grab it and other times Duke will let another dog grab it. But I have no idea what I can determine from that because, among other factors, Duke isn’t always that interested in thrown toys. When he is by himself, sometimes he will pick up a thrown toy. Other times he will chase it, but not pick it up.
So, when the two dogs get to the thrown toy and Duke takes it: is he being dominant? Or does the other dog just not want it that much? And vica versa. When Duke is right there, but so is the other dog right over the toy and Duke backs off: Is Duke being submissive? Or does he really not want the toy after all?
My gut in watching all of Duke’s interactions for 4 years is that Duke is a rather middle-of-the-road status dog. Duke is generally submissive to about half the dogs and dominant to about half the others that he meets. I think.
JJ says
I have another elimination behavior question: My dog has always done the hind-leg scratch thing after pooping. Lately, at about 7 years old, he has started to do the hind-leg scratch thing after peeing (sometimes). Isn’t that weird? I wonder why he does it at all, let alone now as a new behavior.
Marnie says
I’ve been trying to observe all the relevant matters. We have three BC mix rescues with varying degrees of idiosyncrasies.
Our oldest, Panda, female, has never been observed over-marking. There’s usually a line waiting for her to finish doing her business, a fair bit of sniffing around her and then she wants to go right back inside. I don’t know if she has an alpha role or even if that applies in our household. She’s 7 and 9 years older than her siblings and will sometimes play with them but mostly sticks near me. She will put her foot down when she feels like it but she tends to be blas
kira says
two shibas 5yo female intact dominant resource guards food and people from other dog if given the chance gives him inhibited muzzle bites never overmarks him sometimes overmarks and leg lifts unfamiliar dogs 4yo male neutered overmarks her constantly at home and on walks (same behavior before neutering) is submissive to her except about balls and toys which i think is more that she doesn’t care about them tails are curly but my best judgement is both are peeing in the tail up position i have always thought he was desperately trying to signal that she was his or alternatively we are together
Blanche says
I foster for two rescues–Pugalug Pug Rescue and Speaking of Dogs (I met you, Patricia, at your seminar in Toronto for Speaking of Dogs) so I see a fair bit of marking and over peeing. One of the great myths I hear in rescue is that people don’t want males because of the marking. They erroneously believe that females don’t mark. My female pug, Hazel, is a mad marker and will mark in my house if I have another bitch in the house for fostering. And she overpees in the yard and park. My pom (now deceased) was another marker/over pee-er. My male pug, Tank, never over pees and doesn’t mark much unless we are doing a walk in unfamiliar territory. Certainly, never in the house. Tank is pretty much the “leader” in my group.
And all of my girls have lifted their leg to pee. My pom would actually climb backwards up trees and hydrants to get more height on her peeing. Pretty hilarious.
I’ve had a few fosters that would mark me, given the chance and one or two who would mark other humans in the dog park (an embarrassing event!).
The more I learn about dogs, the more I realize how much I don’t know and may never know.
Krystal says
I know this is late to the game as I came across this blog entry recently while looking up this very topic. I have 2 german shepherds. The female is in charge when it comes to the male – food, toys, no matter the coveted resource, he will drop them immediately at the slightest sign from her. He is almost obsessive, however, when it comes to overmarking any and every time she pees.
Here are the facts:
Male, High TP, OM onto Dom Fam Female
Michelle Love says
My year old male unneutered friendly Pug overmarks both my female dalmatian and male rottweiler (both fixed). My dalmatian is the most dominant I would say of all three dogs. Very odd!!
Donna says
15 month old male, high tp, om onto 5 yr old, low-med tp female. Of the two, the female is dominant although she’s not dominant in nature. Both are fixed. Male was adopted 6 months ago from a shelter.
Carlos Williams says
Great discussion. I have 2 dogs, 1 intact male Standard Poodle age 4 y/o and an intact male Vizsla age 2.5 y/o . Not somethings but every time I let them out, the Vizsla pees and the poodle stands behind him and waits til he’s done and over pees. They get a long for the most part but they have very different personalities. My poodle is more on the spectrum he’s aloof, not very affectionate and live to work (he’s a SAR dog) while my Vizsla is Mr happy and playful moderately affectionate and can display jealousy behavior. This isn’t much of a problem in the because the poodle could take or leave human affectionate other than when working. So why does my poodle “always” over pee he’s not dominant per se but by know means submissive, he’s more of a FU (forget you) personality.
Trisha says
Ah, the dangers of the “d” word. Just because a dog is aloof doesn’t mean he doesn’t want his scent to be supreme. (Sorry about the double negatives!) Social relationships can be complicated, and there’s probably tons we don’t know about what goes on between two dogs. I’d be happy that there are no sparks and that they get along well enough.
Janis says
Female 1 was very true alpha female. She was perfectly friendly to other dogs, but they could “feel” the confidence exuding from her. She had extreme physical prowess/agility when playing with other dogs (that tended to make them feel threatened/insecure because it was like toddlers playing with a blackbelt ninja who was toying with them). In any case, she was a true alpha that brooked no argument that she was in charge, and if you wanted to challenge her, she was cool with that. She wouldn’t fight you, because you couldn’t land a punch, and it was all rather funny to her. Spayed at 6 months, lived until 12.5. Purebred Australian Shepherd.
Male A – An “omega” dog. Class clown, likes keeping the peace, really doesn’t care who’s humping on his head while he’s taking a nap. We called him Bitch #1’s trampoline/punching bag. And he was perfectly fine with it. Neutered at 1 year old. Came home at 8 weeks when Bitch #1 was 4 years old. Purebred Australian Shepherd – cousin and nephew to Bitch #1 (both sides)
Female 2 – A very “beta” dog. She’s somewhere in the middle where I’d say most dogs are. A bit insecure, but feels dominant over Male A because he’s spoiled her rotten since she came home and has let her continue where Bitch #1 left off using him as a trampoline. He was almost 9 years old when we got her at 8 weeks. She’s now 2+ years old, intact female. Purebred English Shepherd – unrelated to Bitch #1 and Dog A
Bitch #1 mostly made her rounds and peed/pooped around perimeter of invisible fence. Dog A wasn’t allowed that far because he’s so “doesn’t give a sh!t” he won’t come back until he’s ready. If B1 squat anywhere (pee or poop) in his zone, he would always over-mark.
Physical fence was added after B1 passed away because B2 is intact.
Bitch #2 mostly goes in the same spot where she was initially trained, but as she’s gotten older and taken more initiative into guarding/sheepdoggy role, she will “do rounds” around the full perimeter and squat or poop.
DA ALWAYS squirts overmarks where she’s gone 1 or 2. If he fully relieved himself, he will wait a moment to find some inspiration and will make sure to squirt/mark over B2’s urine.
This is regardless whether she’s in season or not. So far we have not seen any “strangers” lurking while she’s in season, but we’ve been watching very carefully.
The day before B1 passed away (scheduled to be euthanized right on time with when grand mal seizures started) a strange husky nobody in the neighborhood had ever seen before (blue collar, so it was somebody’s dog) was sniffing around her pee spots. That night, coyotes were heard all around the house. (Never heard that close before). Passed away next day, so I suspect these “harbingers” could smell death strongly in her urine from far away.